The Syndicate

It's not the first time, actually, when the MVP is not from Camp Win.

Plus, it's very appropriate to the theme: you can't screw everyone over and expect to earn the popular vote.

Has a request for a recount been filed?

Golden wrote:
G-Man wrote:Catching up on all the posts. One thing I want to make clear is that Jeb was not compatible with the civvies. Had JJJ been NK'd by Jeb, he would leave the game. If this happens when the mafia is still alive, Jeb gets a win and leaves the game. Then the rest of the civvies still have to eliminate the baddies.

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss. Jeb either takes Trump out himself or he takes everyone else out to be the LMS. Even if the mafia is eliminated, the civvies need to get rid of Jeb to win.

Let me explain it this way- the civvies were tasked with eliminating all threats to Trump's campaign. They can't win with Jeb because he is a threat to the campaign. I couldn't spell it out for you guys because the closed setup required me to keep killing faction information from you. If that devolved into a grey area, then I guess that's just my fault as the host. It was always civvies-v-mafia-v-sk. Had Trump been lynched, Jeb could have accomplished his mission in the narrative had he made it as LMS.
So, if I had NKed Jay when Sloonei died, I would have won, and then left the game, and with no baddies left, the townies would have automatically won?

G-Man wrote:With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Rico, you and Marmot won Talking Heads with me by cooperatively using process of elimination to arrive at Diiny and Russ at the end.

Except I achieved literal process of elimination due to my cop reads (and even so, testing them out - sacrificing motel room in a lynch to confirm MM's role - since there was a chance they could have been doctored), achieved after 11 cycles of gaming and still needing to put a monumental fight to firstly convince you of the theory on MM, then convincing the both of you to stick to the plan whilst those two were biting back. I don't deny it was total cooperation reached to vanquish the opposing forces left, but it was as asiduous and strongly debated coming to consensus as any mafia game deserves to contain.

If that's the same as "hey Jay what's your five? I can run with that. PoE, everyone!" then kill me now.

Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt.
By the way, lets be clear. I think this, not PoE, is at the heart of what's going on here. You got enraged with me, and you spent the rest of the game not really playing because you were mad at me. There was far too much anger going on in this game. Mafia is not a good place for anger.

If you have a problem with me, there are ways to address that.

You're wrong in assessing that. I used the word "enraging" for the effect a method had, when voiced in a highly principled manner to emphasize previous methods that were, imo, much more shallow.

If there's anything that crashed my game into abandon, it must have been the four hours in which it devolved into "why vigi kills are good" and "why PoE is the way to go". I basically ended up doing the same thing Epig did, later on (although, again, he was Mafia, so, who knows, possible fakery). Was he actually angery when he said "ok you tell me where to vote and I'll just do that from now on"?

Golden wrote:Look, Rico, I'm not here to sell you a bill of goods. The PoE strategy is proven over thousands of games from other mafia cultures, and it worked here perfectly.

You were doing so well until you drove it back to square one with the underlined. The operation was successful, the patient is dead.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:It's not 0% in any subforum either.

I consider to have played a town game with PoE strategy for the first time. If it shared similarities with previous occasions and strategies, it must have not been delivered back then like a preach of the Commandments from the top of the Mount Mafia Universe.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Question about the town win condition. What is it and did we achieve it?

Yeah, man, we've won the game, can't you tell?

Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:Lover role cards usually go both ways.
I think he noticed from the fact we had a btsc thread.

No, we're talking role cards here. If there's a "Julianna, you and Dave have BTSC" card, there should be a "Dave, you and Julianna have BTSC" one.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Town didn't lose this game because of "PoE". INH was never going to realize his game-long BTSC partner was not on his team. There's nothing he can do about that, and the game effect was evident.

The point was never that the loss was caused by PoE. Such a conclusion was not reached, due to third party handling the last mafia member.

As for INH, whilst this is in no way an implication regarding what he could have done, I'm noticing that, if he received his role card the way it's written in post-game, there isn't a mention that he has BTSC. Lover role cards usually go both ways.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:And the strategy is not at 0% on The Syndicate. It's been used a ton, just not under the term "PoE".

I didn't say 0% on Syndicate.

Golden wrote:It is inherently corrupted by invisible uncommon power roles to be sure,

No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"? Least to speak of baddies themselves. It's not rocket science, really. "Hey guys let's gather our reads into PoE"... said the wolf. It wasn't the case, this game. It'll be one day.

Golden wrote: but the reason I was able to do it was only by forcing mm and Jay into reaching mechanical conclusions that were wrong. As Jay said earlier, it's silly to expect it to be utterly infallible.

Didn't follow D5 in depth. Justification of the method doesn't influence the point made, though.

Golden wrote:Where it's benefit lies, is in coming as a town to collective town read conclusions that enable you to narrow the field.

Ok this is the part where I'll bring to attention that your idea of "coming as a town to collection town" was to 1) simply agree with Sloonei about the charges brought towards Scotty on Day 1, then 2) simply state that "you agree with Jay's PoE", hence it becoming your PoE. Sure, you elaborated once inquired, but as far as I recall, this was the basic gist of your first two phases. You call it "coming as a town to collectiveness", but it was really borderline wagoning. And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt. Sit back down at the table and compare notes. I gave the example straight away back then: Boomslang's death being a relief for you (since PoE) wasn't the same relief for me (since no suspicions on him, plus town deficit created: one lynch, two deaths). There was nothing remotely "collective" in this death, for instance, being treated as good PoE reduction.

Golden wrote: what my power was in this case wasn't important - what is important is not lynching outside of the poe. It's true you might clear baddies, it's not infallible. But what it is, is something that increases town win percentage overall in these types of games.

So far, it's zero percent. Only way is up, though, so that's good.

Golden wrote: If I was to put it another way, it would be this... It's about not pursuing a tinfoil read in a situation where you can accept there are good logical reasons for others to read them as town

Epignosis would have been a good instance to tinfoil. Of course, I'm not going to pretend I tinfoiled him at any point. His vote move looked real clean. Besides, I never implied tinfoil being the path towards light at any point; it's just a look at what might be. Also, good logical reasons to read them as town? Cool. Let's do good logical reasons for mafia, as well, then. "I suspect X because I have nothing with which to townread him - and that happens to be 60% of my must-be-bad category?"... *tommy lee stare*

Golden wrote:running with consensus town reads

run run run awaaaaa- oh wait what is consensus? From two people? Uhm.

Golden wrote: and lynching people who don't have that, even if the suspicion isn't active.

Witchhunt. Doesn't sound too kosher.

Won't requote the whole thing, but all clear, G-Man, thanks for going over those points. (y)

Golden wrote:Lol at rico, epi and inh still moaning about the PoE.

The PoE is why I was able to win. It's why I killed epi (I figured Wilgy would be lynched and one of the two had to be the last mafia).

PoE is going to be much harder to use to find a serial killer, but if Jay was actually killable, it wouldn't matter... the game would have been over and the town would have won with 6 or 7 of us left out of 12. That was the PoE at work.

I figured Jay was Trump from the moment I subbed back in, given I knew Boomslang died in his place. It was confirmed when sloonei died in his place. I believe the rest of the town could have won with me if I just could have killed him! But I couldn't.

Sorry for lynching you MM.

I was planning to drop snark on the basis of the first two paragraphs - noice first person use in the second btw > "PoE is a town weapon with which I, non-town individual, managed to win"; u-huh - but then I reflected more on the latter three ones. It seems there was a valid combo-win scenario available, which in hindsight also nuances just what kind of a "serial killer" the role was - town usually needs it removed to achieve peace, so to speak, plus this role was primarly a wincon grabber, allowing it to flee upon achieving said wincon. Did the Host anticipate this third potential outcome? Not confirmed. I don't remember Epignosis having been on your PoE, but I didn't really checked on any updates since Cycle 2. I acknowledge that you ended up taking care of the remaining Mafia before one last attempt to achieve your independent win con. PoE at work? Not sure how a hunt method can be validated when you apply it via kills, based on powers only you have, but whatevs. Did this make you an incidental town vigi, for a sec? Who knows. What isn't changed by any of these factors is how, during the last phase, you shifted this use of civ weapon to misguide and serve your win. This is not validation. It's clear cut proof of its corruptibility.

Cool stuff, G-Man, I think it's clear how much detail and purpose you've put into the theme, the roles and the flavor - about the same kind I like to pigment my own designs, as much as possible. I wouldn't say there are any issues with a villanous third party role - in theory, anything could have happened to him, from Day 1 till endgame, it just happened to achieve a maximum potential this time. I also designed the Reaper in Triskaidekaphobia as an exiter, so I think that side of it is also cool beans, but in that case it was a benign role simply because I would have exceeded the 3-limit rule by giving it something to actually do within the game.

That being said, I do have two topics of inquiry that I sense could morph into issues:

1) if there is any actual explanation to the faux-flips we've seen in the case of the mafia team? I mean, I've read something above about baddies in disguise and plastic surgery, but... is flavor all it was to it? If so, I'd say the issue is when flavor would affect the dynamic of the game and the effects on the players. I think I remember at least one instance in which a fake mislynch reveal caused players to end up at each other's throat over it, after which the real reveal made one side emerge justified and victorious and one side looking, erm, poopy.

Of course, the kerkuffle happened to be between a civilian and a mafioso, so my case is not completely strong, since the mafia side probably faked being so berating, still, overall, I'm inclined to think lynch reveals are meant to deliver the facts straight up and particularly make the civilians face up either the successfulness or the misguided nature of their endeavour. It's clear you did not design any seemer / temp seemer / something alike, which to justify legit flip fakery, so yeah, I'd say Host shenanigans in revealing endphase results should be kept at a low.

2) Now that you've disclosed it, I confess that I find the "Leetic was submitting kills but not posting or voting, so I felt like I had to replace him." slightly questionable. Part of that is due to the fact that I don't think you designed or even alluded to the fact that not posting would eventually consistute a game offence deserving removal or replacement - maybe I've missed it, but I don't see it. Then, a preliminary question would be if you contacted leetic to ask if his method is intentional.

All in all, believe me, I'm probably the #1 inactive hater, precisely because of how they can borderline force the civ pack to have to simply remove them in order to extract a read out of them (or just leave them be and potentially suffer the consequences), but the way you phrased it, leetic was clearly not out of orbit, and it is left as interpretable if he was carrying a tactic with his inactivity or not. Which makes the replacement, at least from the deity-approach to hosting (I think Epignosis coined it?), not a clean intervention.

G-Man wrote:
leetic targeted and NK'd Ricochet (PENCE)

Good sport, the only player who listened to me in this game.

Also, top kek, I would have subbed for my own killer - if I wouldn't have rejected the offer, that is. Blissful.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Frankly anyone who continues to crap on the concept of process of elimination is absolutely clueless.
Winless, too.
I can't even count the number of wins I have piled up doing it.

Hooray for you.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Frankly anyone who continues to crap on the concept of process of elimination is absolutely clueless.

Winless, too.

Spoiler: show

china!!

"We should bear in mind that, in general, it is the object of our newspapers rather to create a sensation - to make a point - than to further the cause of truth."

G-Man wrote:The Day 3 poll has been added to the Polls thread. Sorry for the delay. My work computer has a newer version of Microsoft Office and does not have the picture manager program I am used to cropping screenshots with.

prtscr and mspaint, man

t's how trump does it

G-Man wrote:
reywaS was actually SHAUN DONOVAN disguised as Jim Murphy. He was a member of the mafia and part of Operation Cobalt.

china!!

...as the strong man exults in his physical ability, delighting in such exercises as call his muscles into action, so glories the analyst in that moral activity which disentangles. He derives pleasure from even the most trivial occupations bringing his talents into play. He is fond of enigmas, of conundrums, of hieroglyphics; exhibiting in his solutions of each a degree of acumen which appears to the ordinary apprehension preternatural...

make it count, Jaggedmeister

vice-prezz please

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I don't demand that everyone plays this way. I'm not that arrogant.

The true arrogance is people throwing it out the window before they've even seen it tried for a full game.

EBWOP

Quin wrote:
Why did you elect to ignore your personal suspicion of 3J and vote for me just because I was on a PoE (yet again, which is prone to baddie manipulation)?

Quin wrote:Strong town
Golden

Mild town
Sloonei
Epignosis

Neutral
leetic
reywaS
DrWilgy

Mild bad
insertnamehere
metalmarsh89
ricochet
JaggedJimmyJay

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
I readily acknowledge that I am capable of being wrong about stuff. Is there a person I am not including in my process of elimination pool that you think I should be more wary of?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Would it annoy you even more if I removed him from the PoE?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Another emotion-driven read:

Quin has re-inserted himself into the game on a moment's notice with authority and aplomb. Nice look.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hey Rico, should be PoE lynch Quin twice?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: Explain why this strategy isn't viable. Tell me the fatal flaw. Try.

Golden wrote:
No, not whoops.

You really don't get the PoE thing. You really don't get playing the odds.

Quin was the right lynch 100% of the time. If he wasn't lynched today, he would have been tomorrow.

No oops... what Quin flipped was not relevant to my decision to vote him. Finding out what he would flip was more important.

Now that I see his flip.. I doubt I'll be voting Jay tomorrow. I do, however, think it much more likely that YOU are bad.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Is it a vote you believe in and are invested in?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Contingencies in the event Quin is town:

~ It's still entirely possible my old PoE is correct and that the baddies are among the inactives. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
~ Of the Day 1 Scotty voters, I think the least likely bus is the Epignosis vote. The rest can be re-examined, to include WIFOM bucket's hammer vote. ☑
~ Beck becomes significantly more likely to be bad than before just by default. (?)
~ Tinfoil cases given more scrutiny. ☑

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:At one point last night I had 4 votes and Quin had 3. I don't remember the exact circumstances. It may have been MM who switched?

1 SLO: QUIN
2 GOLD: QUIN
RICO: JJJ
RICO: QUIN
4 WILG: RICO
5 RICO: WILG
6 QUIN: JJJ
MM: BECK
7 EPIG: JJJ
8 INH: JJJ
9 JJJ: QUIN
10 MM: QUIN

EBWOP

Ricochet wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: I was the leading wagon and I didn't respond to his ISO.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: I was the leading wagon and I didn't respond to his ISO.

DrWilgy wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Wilgy and Rico: move your votes. That's an order!
No, Rico is bad.

Sloonei wrote:Wilgy and Rico: move your votes. That's an order!

Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:While I don't deny the plausibility that they're both mafia, I'd wager it is extremely rare the two leading wagons to take such a high percentage of all the votes and both players be mafia (on the same team).
I agree. I'd be surprised if Jay is bad, but it's possible. But it seems exceptionally unlikely that BOTH Jay and Quin are bad.

Golden wrote:Everything Jay is doing, every post, reeks town.

Search found 142 matches