RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Teach me O Tired Jimmy Jay

Lesson #1: stop shitting on Mafia styles you've never seen before

[Golden]

I'll make it plain then, and I'm sorry to resort to this kind of thing but, you've caught no mafia. None.

I got results. You didn't. Golden didn't. Neener Neener.

Lol. Was on Scotty before you. Neener Neener.[/quote]

And I don't suspect you.[/quote]



I mean, there is really no more places to take this than to epi going so far to discredit the method that it's about 'who is better'.

I told you already epi, I don't care if yours is longer. You can have the best townie game of all time, be on fire, nailing everyone. I'll say good job!

The concept of a PoE doesn't eliminate the need for good case work. Not one person has ever objected to the CASE on Quin. You didn't at the time either. INH said it was a good case.

You seem to think that being right makes you more likely to be right the next time. I think you'll find that isn't true.

[Epignosis]

Teach me O Tired Jimmy Jay

Lesson #1: stop shitting on Mafia styles you've never seen before

Lesson #1: Stop defending mafia on Day 1.

[Epignosis]

All right Golden, that's cool. I'm done. You catch mafia without me.

[Golden]

Teach me O Tired Jimmy Jay

Lesson #1: stop shitting on Mafia styles you've never seen before

Lesson #1: Stop defending mafia on Day 1.

Yes, exactly. That is lesson #1. It's why players like Jay don't do it.

[Quin]

I'll make it plain then, and I'm sorry to resort to this kind of thing but, you've caught no mafia. None.

I got results. You didn't. Golden didn't. Neener Neener.

Lol. Was on Scotty before you. Neener Neener.

And I don't suspect you.[/quote]



I mean, there is really no more places to take this than to epi going so far to discredit the method that it's about 'who is better'.

I told you already epi, I don't care if yours is longer. You can have the best townie game of all time, be on fire, nailing everyone. I'll say good job!

The concept of a PoE doesn't eliminate the need for good case work. Not one person has ever objected to the CASE on Quin. You didn't at the time either. INH said it was a good case.

You seem to think that being right makes you more likely to be right the next time. I think you'll find that isn't true.[/quote]

Quin objected to the case on Quin

[Golden]

Quin objected to the case on Quin

Well, yes, true!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's fitting that the politics game has turned into the Clash of the Egos.

[Epignosis]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

[Golden]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

Vote where you want to vote.

[Epignosis]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

Vote where you want to vote.

Thanks Dad. You are amazing with sarcasm.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

You're willing to vote for who I ask you to vote for?

[Epignosis]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

You're willing to vote for who I ask you to vote for?

No, you ninny.

[Golden]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

Vote where you want to vote.

Thanks Dad. You are amazing with sarcasm.

Yeah, like as though I have any influence over what you do with yourself...

seriously, you need to go get that beer and relax for a bit. Come back tomorrow. I'm not going to tell you how to use your vote. I am going to keep playing with PoEs because thats what I'm doing now. I am going to keep defending Jay because I believe he is town. But I'm not going to tell you how to use your vote. If you get Jay lynched and you believe in it, all power to you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

You're willing to vote for who I ask you to vote for?

No, you ninny.

Would you please vote for me?

[Golden]

You guys do your thing with your POE and whatever else you have that works for you. I'll vote. Just tell me where to vote.

You're willing to vote for who I ask you to vote for?

No, you ninny.

nominating this for quote of the year.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Really, process of elimination isn't some revolutionary new thing. It's just reads. It's the same shit everybody does, expressed in a different way. How controversial.

[Epignosis]

I am a school teacher. Thank you for telling me about the process of elimination.

[Golden]

Really, process of elimination isn't some revolutionary new thing. It's just reads. It's the same shit everybody does, expressed in a different way. How controversial.

Well, I guess it's more than that...

It is the concept that the town works together to agree people who won't be lynched instead of just going on their own tangents. And I think that's the more challenging part here.

[Epignosis]

Well I think it's clear Golden, JaggedJimmyJay and Epignosis aren't teammate.

Goodnight everybody!

[Golden]

Well I think it's clear Golden, JaggedJimmyJay and Epignosis aren't teammate.

Goodnight everybody!

Night epi

[Epignosis]

I was actually coining a clever phase. I wasn't actually going to bed,

[Epignosis]

using, not coining. I'm a mess.

[Golden]

AND you just ended a sentence with a comma.

[Epignosis]

Let's take the time to crap on the other people. Who is bad?

[Epignosis]

AND you just ended a sentence with a comma.

AND I'm drunk.

[Epignosis]

Hello.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not good at talking with drunk people. Are you... well?

[Golden]

I'm doing reads now, epi

[Golden]

I'll do reads on everyone not called golden, epi or Jay... then lets have a chat about what you think about them.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll do reads on everyone not called golden, epi or Jay... then lets have a chat about what you think about them.

I'm sure I'll be here. It's only 2:30am after all.

[Epignosis]

I'm not good at talking with drunk people. Are you... well?

My drunk is Hemmingsworth quality. I'm that good.

[Golden]

Let's take the time to crap on the other people. Who is bad?

Thoughts on each person not named Jay or epi.

Quin really seems very solvey. Also, I think he is bringing up independent points that no-one else is, and reading people as town that I think he could get away with not reading as town (and for specific logical reasons). I think he looks town.

Sloonei more or less nailed scotty, so easy town for me. It wasn't just a bus, he really nailed scotty good and proper.

inh - I don't like the way he has handled me. It's been dismissive and I did feel like it could be discomfort with the fact the method is actually correct and he knows it. But Jay pointed out that he did the same in the office when town, and I had a good read on inh before that, so I'm back to thinking he might be town. But I probably need to read his stuff from before he started going after me again, because an inh/metalmarsh team does have some merits as a concept.

Leetic has been more or less absent but I do think Jay pointed out something that makes leetic look good, so I'm inclined to think he is town.

Metalmarsh put the hammer down on Scotty. That looks good, provided inh isn't bad.

Wilgy and rey are literally unreadable. I tend to think rey is slightly worse for mechanical reasons (MP got replaced before Beck).

Ricochet stopped playing when he got annoyed at the idea of a PoE. There is a part of me that thinks it is a tactic to prove the concept of a PoE wrong, but I'm not sure. When Rico was really playing, he felt pretty townie.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Generally agreed. The people I am least confident in calling town other than Wilgy/reywaS are probably INH, leetic, and MM. With Ricochet I have to think he'd be more invested in looking the part if he was bad.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

I'm down for this action if you have the time, Quin.

[Quin]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

I'm down for this action if you have the time, Quin.

I forgot. It'll take some time so I'll do it after dinner. Pinky promise.

[Ricochet]

[Ricochet]

Strong town
Golden

Mild town
Sloonei
Epignosis

Neutral
leetic
reywaS
DrWilgy

Mild bad
insertnamehere
metalmarsh89
ricochet
JaggedJimmyJay

[Quin]

He's already got his defence here ready, but reading of any kind based on emoticon usage is...a horrible case. My emoticon usage has shit all to do with my alignment and everything to do with my emotions at the time. Couple that with this discussion is ongoing with marmot who I don't feel fantastic about sets off alarm bells.

I agree that a case based around emoticons is not a strong one. I don't believe that's the relevant detail though -- I'm not assessing the strength of Marmot's post, I'm assessing the honesty of Marmot's post. I made a number of dubious gut reads in that early stage because that's how I play Mafia. This was pretty much the same as me giving you a positive nod for using caps lock. Those were real reads. They weren't reads I'd invest myself immensely in, but they were real. Reads are stupid early in a game, and I embrace that. I state my stupid reads.

I looked further at the context and I agree he sounds honest.

Golden used the 'just because it's easy doesn't make it bad' defence when I accused him of taking the easy route when coming up with potential teammates. I know you read it, but you didn't seem interested in that. Also, on what planet do townies lie more easily?

Is there a reason I should have been interested in that? I agree with Golden's logic. Whether townies lie more than baddies can be debated; I think it depends upon how one defines "lie" in that context. It is true that baddies provide a number of false reads, all of which can be called "lies". They're implicit in the nature of the game though. I was referring to lies which doesn't necessarily have to exist for Mafia to work -- on that front I certainly lie more as a townie than as a baddie. I fake night actions, I fake confident reads, I fling the nastiest sort of poop without provocation -- these are all reactionary tactics that I have tried in my town skin. I don't think I'm alone in that style.

I apologise, I didn't give you full context here. I was suggesting that while you didn't scrutinise Golden for this post, you did scrutinise someone else for pretty much the same thing. I cannot find said post after going through your post history AGAIN, so either I'm forgetting what it said, or I was mistaking you for someone else.

You don't get immunity from having your game criticised just because the person civ-read you once. Wasn't it you who said this:

Spoiler: show

My objective is to generate a game thread which promotes the highest-possible chance of facilitating strong reads. I change my mind more than anyone I know for this reason -- the only read that matters is the one that accompanies a final vote. Everything else is a part of the process of arriving at that final vote.

It seems contradictory that you'd act so aggressively to someone who's just trying to do the same thing you do.

I don't think INH was ever doing that. His griping about my play while calling me his strongest town read could serve him no real purpose. From the perspective of a town INH, that should be viewed as a pointless effort, and I said as much. I was probably acting as much on annoyance as relevant Mafia pursuit at that point because INH wouldn't shut the hell up about it. I have been doing things my way for a long time, and when someone complains about it without offering any actual alternative it's really annoying.

It wasn't 'while' he was calling you his strongest at all. Things change. It's perfectly clear that by the time this conversation comes around he's starting to trust you less. I get that having your game criticised without being given an alternative is annoying, but I don't see how that's relevant here, because I'm not interpreting it as simple criticism.

This is a meta read. Curious he looked for a game in which he was bad and didn't think to back it up with a game where he was civ. For the record, here's a civ INH in Triskaedekaphobia also not taking Day 1 accusations seriously. Or are you segmenting the two because the former seems 'funnier'?

That was the point. I had already said earlier in the game that this was behavior associated with civilian INH. I went looking for a contrary example to determine if that prior read was inspired by an illogical mindset -- and I determined it was. So I ceased to give him credit for it.

Where did you do this? I found the post were you drew associations between this game and Triskaidekaphobia, but that conversation was not about whether he took Day 1 suspicions seriously. It was about his opposition to your methods.

He's on both sides of the fence on a Scotty lynch.

I was never enthusiastic about the Scotty lynch. Until the very end of Day 1, I was never enthusiastic about stopping it either. It just didn't inspire me. Oh well.

Okay.

I didn't like this interaction then and I don't now. 3J has always been for alternatives, and even if he suggests that he doesn't support mine because he doesn't agree with it, I think it's suspicious that he'd try and discredit my vote by saying it had no utility, even with the case I had behind it.

Sloonei was never going to be lynched on Day 1, and it doesn't take a superpower of projection to say that. I thought you opted to camp your vote in a place where it had close to no chance of mattering, and I said so. That this happened while other suspects were garnering tally attention was the problem for me. I've seen baddies do that shit and I didn't like it when you did it.

I vote outside the main wagons all the time. If I'm extremely confident that someone is bad, I'm gonna vote for them. I didn't do it to skirt the sidelines, I fully intended to fight for that lynch, and I did.

I'd go so far as to say Sloonei was the reason Scotty was lynched. You haven't made a single hint towards your thinking that he could have been bussed by Sloonei, so I see how you could think that Sloonei was suspicious here, whether he actually voted Scotty or not.

Incorrect.

Prove me wrong.

Well I'm going to need to reprocess everything in light of that.

Mmhm. I feel much better about sloonei now.

I might actually feel worse.

I don't know, I'm going to try to block it all out until I have time to reassess objectively.

This is good, I also have doubts about you. You were opposed to the Scotty wagon from the moment it started. You pounced on INH with me as soon as the alternative arose. Your other big suspect has been leetic, who has three posts which are largely unsubstantial.

If my goal is to save my partner, I never need your INH CFD. I stay on leetic and I push that case.

I wasn't "opposed to the Scotty wagon from the moment it started". At one point I even said I was content with it. I didn't take a harder stance against it until the EOD sequence during which you did the same thing. And props to Scotty, I'm a boob. I shouldn't have done that. But shit happens.

The reason my immediate reaction to the new reveal features new doubt about you is the pre-flip town projection Beck was referring to. I didn't care about it at when I really believed Scotty was town, but it has new meaning when he appears town but actually isn't. The same CFD attempt I took part in was your own creation. With a little time to think about it though I am not inclined to attack you for this. The CFD was always relatively unlikely to come to fruition, and I don't know that you'd be so sloppy as to peel away from your team mate at the last minute for a hail mary CFD.

You may or may not agree with my logic, but I provided it.

I do not know what this is doing here.

Why does marmot deserve civ cred here? I don't really get your leetic thing here but I have nothing bad to say about it.

Everything from about this point here that stands out to me is that 3J is crumbing his intention to vote for me, but he's standing back and saying 'hey, I get it! I just want to gather more information!'

I've already talked about that Marmot vote repeatedly. Just go find it.

You've put it down as being a 'hammer vote'. My question stands. He shouldn't have been given civ cred so loosely for jumping on the inevitable. Scotty's lynch was dead set.

I was never "crumbing my intention to vote for you". I didn't place my vote because I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. The only thing from you that I really wanted to hear was your read on Golden, and I didn't take a stance until you provided that read. If you had been more antagonistic against Golden I probably wouldn't have voted for you. There's no way for you to know I'm telling the truth here, but that's what it is.

I don't believe you wanted a civ Quin 1.0 to scum read Golden. Your argument to suggest that civ reading him was a scum-tell was riddled with confirmation bias. Your argument is that 'if I don't think a guy is bad because he's confident that I am, I must be bad'

~~~ Insert spoiler-screwed recreation of my own Quin/Scotty interaction analysis. I don't want to dig through this HTML mess to find points, so if you made any here that you want to hear about just say so.~~~

The ones that got butchered were just three of a larger number. Your EoD pretty much consisted of openings for your to take at a moments notice.

And then there's this little number.

Spoiler: show

At this point Quin, I'm not certain how far defending yourself can realistically take you. Whether you end up lynched or not, the best thing for the town faction would be for you to focus purely on hunting for baddies and leaving us with a legacy. If it's good enough shit, the votes might evaporate anyway. I say this mostly because it's what I'd most like to see; I've already seen the defenses and I can conjure them before they are shown to me. Give me the suspects.

The choice is yours obviously.

Clearly the scumhunting I have been doing isn't good enough for him. He's going on about legacies, which also raises alarms. Just because I'm dead doesn't mean my scumhunting is right. I don't trust this, I think this is a massive discredit job and a way to try and shut me up.

I did the exact opposite of "try to shut you up". I did the exact opposite of "discredit" you. I wanted you to use your time wisely. You clearly disagreed about how time is used wisely. I gave you the advice that I later took myself: I didn't waste my time defending myself against your mega-ISO and instead focused on what was important to the town faction. You don't have to agree with the mindset, but it's one I've promoted in nearly every town game I've played since about 2013.

Defending myself was a wise decision, and best for the town. I maintain that. I would much prefer to give you the tools to analyse how people reacted to my defence, who accepted it, who didn't, and give you a meaty lynch poll and thread than give you the reads I could have come up with which may or may not have been correct. Telling me that defending myself isn't realistic is most definitely an attempt to shut me up.

And then this. It just furthers my opinion that he's preparing for me to get all my posts out so that he can fake a now-informed vote. He intended to vote for me long ago, he just wants to look good doing it.

The Golden read. What I was looking for was some iteration of "I suspect Golden". I didn't get it, I didn't buy it, I thought you were bad. I was wrong. Shit happens.

See above.

If I get lynched, Quin 1.0 will know the feeling.

[Quin]

Strong town
Golden

Mild town
Sloonei
Epignosis

Neutral
leetic
reywaS
DrWilgy

Mild bad
insertnamehere
metalmarsh89
ricochet
JaggedJimmyJay

Why did you elect to ignore your personal suspicion of 3J and vote for me just because I was on a PoE (yet again, which is prone to baddie manipulation)?

[Quin]

The Quin 1.0 and Quin 2.0 thing really has gone out the window, hasn't it?

I have a secret to share.

Guys,
I'm Quin 1.0.

[Ricochet]

Why did you elect to ignore your personal suspicion of 3J and vote for me just because I was on a PoE (yet again, which is prone to baddie manipulation)?

[Quin]

Why did you elect to ignore your personal suspicion of 3J and vote for me just because I was on a PoE (yet again, which is prone to baddie manipulation)?

I think you need to explain to me exactly how this thing works because I do not see how a collective PoE cannot be prone to baddie manipulation.

[Ricochet]

[Quin]

I have to get this powerpoint presentation done by tonight, so I'm forcing myself off of my many distractions until it's done. I'll check in again right before I go to bed.


Maybe Ricochet will have given me a straight answer by then. Who knows?

[Ricochet]

[Ricochet]

EBWOP

[Marmot]

5:30 AM? Two pages to catch up on at night? Excellent!

[Marmot]

I'm aggrevating, man! You don't have to like it, but it's intentional. Ready to take another swig? I declared pretty openly that I didn't care about lynching the civs I lynched in the champs games either, and I still stand by it, because lynching the PoE is the way to the town winning games like this. You were in there, scotty put you in there. I don't like that you, Quin the person, had to be lynched when you are town. In games where it's 'survive to win', I wouldn't be as cavalier, but this isn't. This game is 'be on the winning side to win'. That means, forget about your own death when you are town, accept that sometimes you need to go. That's where my mindset is at for games like hesit games.

I don't much like it myself, frankly. It's why I actually PREFER survive to win.

Quin, you are handling my aggrevation just fine. You did the whole time. I'm pretty sure Quin 2.0 is town.

INH is handling it.. less fine.

Rico is handling it terribly. He's basically been throwing a tantrum for days and done literally nothing but pout about my approach to the game. If this is what bad rico looks like, I won't be impressed.

Quin 1.0 did a good job in your opinion, so Quin 2.0 is town?

Ricochet did a bad job, yet you didn't vote for him?

Spoiler: show

It's Night 2, we've lynched one mafia and (maybe) one town. Inh, why are you so distraught?

Because I feel like 3J is desperately trying to steer the thread, and Golden is helping him. Intentionally or not, it's pretty damn bad for the civs.

I think every lynch is worth studying because simply assuming the baddies just lifted their hands up and decided not to interfere with things this time around is stupid and against all rational thought, to use Golden's favorite phrase.

This cheap-ass "WHOOPS I GUESSED WE LYNCHED A CIV TEE HEE THAT'S JUST GONNA HAPPEN, NOW FOLLOW US ONTO THE NEXT BANDWAGON, WHERE WE TRY TO LYNCH THE PEOPLE WHO THINK OUR LYNCHES ARE UNRELIABLE" routine is just fuckin' bonkers.



"You say it's not a big deal, but you just voted to lynch a civ-"

"Says who?"

"Polls. Both of them. All of them?"

"Says who?"

"Polls. I just told you, I answered your question."

"Okay...which polls?"

"All of them."

"Okay."

Hehe.

Between Jay and Golden, I'd rather lynch Golden.

Golden is bad with inh, otherwise rico is bad.

lol that'd be one awkward chatroom

Strong town
Golden

Mild town
Sloonei
Epignosis

Neutral
leetic
reywaS
DrWilgy

Mild bad
insertnamehere
metalmarsh89
ricochet
JaggedJimmyJay

Why am I orange again?

I think we should lynch Wilgy or reywaS next. I know they're both total lurkers and many people are going to balk at the notion, but I don't care. I think they're the best choices.

I'm gonna disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

I'll knock epi down a peg to neutral for doing exactly what inh did.

The narrative is 'golden was wrong last time, so he shouldn't be listened to this time'.

It's a bullshit narrative, and epi and inh both know that full well.

Your ways are best.

I'm happy to be a neutral peg or whatever it is I am.



I'm with INH in this: Neither of us suspect you. We just think your methods are shit.

Who do you suspect then?

Also, I thought I would hear those words from another player before Golden would.

Essentially, it turns out people are an awful lot better at spotting the things that probably aren't bad, than they are at spotting things that probably are.

I do like this point. That said, I've used this strategy before.

[Marmot]

I think it's probably fair to say that at this point my PoE is like Jay's and they probably are the only two in it. So, I am leaning towards lynching one of the pair tomorrow right now.

I think it's fair to point out that you fine fellows were just talking about shifting lynches away from teammates (on Day 1), and here you are again, proposing that we lynch a quiet inactive player because everyone else is likely to be town.

Agreeing to such a strategy will give us little to discuss in the coming day and less to build upon whether we are right or wrong, so I'm going to disagree.

I agree that all of the time we have should be spent scrutinizing everyone. I am certain that will happen. I am saying who I want to lynch, not who I want to discuss at length. There's nothing to say about Wilgy or reywaS.

I guess Jay already caught what I said above.

I'm having one more beer and going to bed. I don't understand this "Championesque" nonsense or how it works. I think it's pretentious and isn't going to prove successful here.

Could I interest you in a little game of poor mans mafia with little ol' me?