The Syndicate

gg

Anyway, good night.

6 votes on JJJ cannot be overturned.

GG believers in your certain wolf reads

or

GG wolves, it's not as if you don't deserve it.

It's all the same.

I swear I will make a life goal out of finding a single enjoyable thing about playing with falcon and his fuck-all-ism.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:56 pm I'm out til Sunday, no cell service, just music service

20th Century Motobot

Oh yay the wolves have arrived to seal it.

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:23 pm

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:19 pm

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:15 pm Once meatbaby flipped town , the only correct play is to lynch JJJ next. Zenon and JJJ are talking ppl out of it.

Why is lynching the erroneous claimer "the only correct play"?

Are you for real? A fake red check is wolf almost always. JJJ has been responsible for a lot of dead townies. How can you townread any of that?

Speaking in near-certainties doesn't help me in the slightest in this world.

You present a case devoid of taking in account any plausibility that JJJ's read could have been corrupted or simply not work (ninja killer).

The blame on "dead townies" doesn't help in a gamestate in which we've had nothing but dead townies.

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:15 pm Once meatbaby flipped town , the only correct play is to lynch JJJ next. Zenon and JJJ are talking ppl out of it.

Why is lynching the erroneous claimer "the only correct play"?

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:14 pm

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:11 pm

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:10 pm

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:08 pm

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:07 pm There are holes in Zenon's words. JJJ and Zenon are actually fooling people succesfully.

Elaborate on the "holes".

Stating moto is mech cleared wolf. While JJJ did the same on meatbaby. So how can this be?

They both deduced and stated the same. How does that help us?

If JJJ and Zenon are wolves , and we lynch moto and moto flips town just like meatbabay , then town got fooled twice the exact same way.

Not what I meant.

JJJ stated "mech outed wolf" and the majority trusted that to happen. It didn't.

Zenon stated "mech outed wolf".

The claims are the same. How do we crack them?

As for going the "fool me twice" route, the gambit is entirely a possible world. A more extreme one, though. How do we go for testing this compared to testing yet another mech-out-wolf thing?

It's such a whirpool of WIFOM it's downright nauseating.

A "kill JJJ nao" believer needs to shed light on what did JJJ try to achieve by duping us yesterDay.

A "don't trust Zenon" believer needs to give a take on Zenon's silencing D3.

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:10 pm

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:08 pm

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:07 pm There are holes in Zenon's words. JJJ and Zenon are actually fooling people succesfully.

Elaborate on the "holes".

Stating moto is mech cleared wolf. While JJJ did the same on meatbaby. So how can this be?

They both deduced and stated the same. How does that help us?

Belzy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:07 pm There are holes in Zenon's words. JJJ and Zenon are actually fooling people succesfully.

Elaborate on the "holes".

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:54 pm

No mostly voting Motobot out of annoyance, plus are you reading his iso and literally he just did what I said he was doing.

Outside any claim game, I would probably urge to avoid this mindset against a kid with little to no active engagement with the game.

Elim him cuz POE, sure.

Confident none of it is done in bad faith.

so yeah, I think town is likely fucked on votes alone

four wolves can pile and clinch it (with, maybe even w/o hunger add-on)
if moto is wolf and non-performing and loose with voting, that might hamper them a bit, so just a three-wolf pile

that still means all five active town (assuming Martin town as the sidelined voter) need to unite on a wagon
if moto is on town side, we're never achieving that, lol

More paranoia:

if JJJ is town, one vote is required to gamble with a tie, two votes to sink him

assuming Belzy and Seanzie are wolves, the above applies

if one or neither are, the odds are even worse

bottom line, a mislynch is entirely within range to happen, even at the very last minute

so much for trusting anything, anyone

Porscha wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:26 pm Like if jjj is wolf what numbers advantage do they even get pulling that gambit *yesterday*? Knowing that meatbaby flips town. I can clearly see the motive behind a wolf neon going after a town moto here though, with how close we are in numbers. But i cant explicitly find a reason to say they are entirely unpaired, because brad's theory is possible too. This is gonna sound dumb cuz duh, but the wolves have more info than what has been revealed in thread I think, so I think they are pulling a gambit here to try and win. Which leads me back to thinking moto is scapegoat. So in a best world scenario (I think?): moto and jjj are town, zenon wolf. If either go over, solid chance we just lose today. Worst case scenario (I think?): jjj and zenon are wolf together and actually just fake claimed their way to a win

In both scenarios i think moto is likely town, so wagons at end of day should probably be between jjj and zenon. Unless anyone wants to correct me.

Big paragraph is for me the exact WIFOM wormhole we're dealing him. Exactly cuz the claims are identical (well, they are, now that JJJ clarified yesterday's take).

I would lean into Zenon's silenced D3 being a town sign for her. There has been no claim, so the tool is likely a wolf tool.

Porscha wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:12 pm

Porscha wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:10 pm

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:52 pm Why did you blindly trust mech yesterDay?

+

Why do you trust that JJJ's failed mech moment paints him wolf?

To be fair yesterday was not 6v4

And why are you shading sean here?

I mean I'd also like an answer to the question lol, but the way you put it felt like unnecessary shade

I didn't mean to shade, but honestly Seanzie is putting so little effort, his statement felt off, given that yesterDay he was also "welp we have wolf vote bye bye".

Porscha wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:59 pm

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:29 am I say we flip the moto read. That's my Occam take. If we lose, gg, congrats wolfs.

Zenon being town and asking to be flipped is a self-destructive town move or a wolf flaunt. Welcome to WIFOMville.

Wouldnt it just give us a better chance to flip in zenon/jjj? If belzy's w/w theory is correct then it's an auto miss. If between the 2 its 1 town 1 wolf then it's probably better to flip the one potentially framing moto no? Or are we getting boned on points here, cuz I'm not keeping track of that stuff

Also is there a hammer

Belzy's w/w angle is the most bonkers, because it'd require two phase worth of planning, silencing a teammate (zenon D3) and lucking on there not being an actual tracker/watcher ready to counter-claim and sink this on D3 already.

Zenon being wolf vs Jay being town also requires the idea that she was perhaps silenced by teammates and came with this strategy toDay.

I think both moto and Jay are +2 in hunger, so far we have moto going down, unless more vote shenanigans.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:41 am I know the mech is scary but I want to be useful this game has blown chunks for me like as in I'm playing poorly not as in I'm unhappy with the game design or not having fun I'm just playing bad. Last night I did something good and I want it to matter.

It's ok, I think you're in for a guaranteed satisfaction

either by successful mech

or by successful dupe move

Why did you blindly trust mech yesterDay?

+

Why do you trust that JJJ's failed mech moment paints him wolf?

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 8:52 am This feels like such a fucking setup and I hate every fucking part of it.

But this dude is also voting me so I'm just sending him out.

I don’t think motobot is connected (engaged) in doing anything in this internet-provided game of mafia. Least of all toDay, since he didn’t even post to sustain this vote.

Thanks for checking the game.

Will you not vote?

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 5:20 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:46 am

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:43 am You don't risk the game on a maybe when you have a gurantee

You call it a guarantee, even though your read could be just as corrupt as Jay’s has proven to be. Or the killer cannot be tracked. Or various other mech difficulties.

There is no objective guarantee with this.

Well I mean I know I'm the role I claim with the results I claim so like yes it's a guarantee fmpov

But like are you willing to risk the game on trying to play "is Zenon lying?"

I’m willing to flip the claim and get back for real to playing the video game some more.

Wolves have all the reason to just slank and pile on a wagon.

GGs if you strategised and duped us with a carbon copy claim.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:43 am You don't risk the game on a maybe when you have a gurantee

You call it a guarantee, even though your read could be just as corrupt as Jay’s has proven to be. Or the killer cannot be tracked. Or various other mech difficulties.

There is no objective guarantee with this.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:42 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:38 am It’s lylo if it’s 6 vs 4, moto flips town and mafia reaches parity with night kill.

Same if we flip you, just like you said, which is insane talk coming from town in this scenario.

It may also be gg if mafia has the mechanical votes.

Wait... it's 6 v 4

Well than we always flip the mech here wtf

I’m down.

Dunno why you asked to be flipped, then.

We may not even have the votes right now to sink moto. He ain’t voting himself. Only Porscha and falcon haven’t voted.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:37 am Look. I fucking hate mech. I wouldn't be bringing it up unless I'm telling the truth or making a wolf gambit. And I am willing to die to prove that it's the truth

Lol, that clarifies so much, Captain WIFOM.

It’s lylo if it’s 6 vs 4, moto flips town and mafia reaches parity with night kill.

Same if we flip you, just like you said, which is insane talk coming from town in this scenario.

It may also be gg if mafia has the mechanical votes.

We can do anything, especially not attempt to solve the game.

I say we flip the moto read. That's my Occam take. If we lose, gg, congrats wolfs.

Zenon being town and asking to be flipped is a self-destructive town move or a wolf flaunt. Welcome to WIFOMville.

It's not necessarily the motivation tanking, it's the mech claim making players park a vote and bail on play for a second phase running.

Though the JJJ voters are the ones active and talking.

Zenon now wants to be flipped, but that's game-losing if she is indeed town, so what's the point of this request, if town?

motobot parked a vote, didn't even post.

Porscha is among the talkers, but seems to hold on to voting.

Falcon is bail on activity, either that's wolf leisure or, as I've said, I need a manual on how he can decide to play like this as town.

No/lo desire to talk is pretty derpressing.

Yeah, my mind is cooked and so is the game, probably. We've reached a state in which we have to crack and/or pick between two identical claims. We've heard from JJJ, what do we think Zenon will say, besides "im telling you visit = death = gg wolf caught", and then "well heck i must have been redirected" if we reach D5 with a moto townflip. How do you deal with that?

Wish I wasn't town, lol. (recruit pls?)

If the world is truly town-watcher!JJJ and town-watcher!Zenon (in addition to a town-tracker!Vivax, who in theory could have also played a bigger role), then the mafia must have defence against being read/caught easily. In which case we can't trust in full their watch reads. The Occam thought is to say that JJJ and Zenon cannot both be town.

I'm still boggled that a wolf-JJJ wouldn't sweat out a two-vote wagon, 17 hours into a 48-hour phase, and resort to faking a claim to get out of it. But hey, reverse psych can go to such lenghts.

As we are now, a wolf-Zenon could certainly cook a fake claim, since both a mislynch on JJJ for discret or a mislynch on moto would benefit or even win them the game.

Will you die of poisoning, Seanzie? And if so, will you die toDay or toNight? We probably can't afford multiple night Deaths either.

I also forgot that JJJ is also at +2 in hunger votes. So if town, it's a near mechanical scenario of a 4-mafia team securing the votes to not lose phase and game altogether.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:59 am Wait.

Let's assume meatbaby was indeed redirected to target tutuu.
Let's assume JJJ's ability did indeed every visit on tutuu.

But... tutuu was still killed.
And it wasn't meatbaby.

So you should have received a result of at least two visits. A killer and meatbaby with her veggies.

This results in your claim and now counter-claim being utter lies.

Everyone, please decide on this.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:02 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:59 am Wait.

Let's assume meatbaby was indeed redirected to target tutuu.
Let's assume JJJ's ability did indeed every visit on tutuu.

But... tutuu was still killed.
And it wasn't meatbaby.

So you should have received a result of at least two visits. A killer and meatbaby with her veggies.

This results in your claim and now counter-claim being utter lies.

I think it’d have to be the mafia swapping themselves with meatbaby while performing the kill. Could be other ways, I dunno. But that’s the one for which I have seen roles that fit.

That is so bastard of a redirect, I would attribute it a low chance of mechanical design.

A kill is a player submitting a kill i.e. targeting.

I'm closer to believing Epignosis would not alter such requirement.

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:00 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:56 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:55 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:53 am Blame me if you want, but “my role can be be redirected” is not part of my role card. ANY role can be redirected. If I see some visit a night kill I am going to vote for them every time. This is the improbable exception to a very basic rule.

We are into an early phase situation of rage lynching you, because you couldn't articulate last Day that you can track every visit and that meatbaby's visit was the only one.

Leading to Zenon being believed with this kind of clearer, more certain on paper mech read.

I thought it was obvious. It’s what all watchers do

Wasn't obvious for me (I don't do traditional, clear cut mafia terminology), which is why I asked you if you think there's any chance your read is wrong or corrupt.

Second counterpoint would be that Epignosis is within reason a game host who can modify, alter etc. traditional roles.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:56 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:55 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:53 am Blame me if you want, but “my role can be be redirected” is not part of my role card. ANY role can be redirected. If I see some visit a night kill I am going to vote for them every time. This is the improbable exception to a very basic rule.

We are into an early phase situation of rage lynching you, because you couldn't articulate last Day that you can track every visit and that meatbaby's visit was the only one.

Leading to Zenon being believed with this kind of clearer, more certain on paper mech read.

I thought it was obvious. It’s what all watchers do

Wasn't obvious for me (I don't do traditional, clear cut mafia terminology), which is why I asked you if you think there's any chance your read is wrong or corrupt.

Wait.

Let's assume meatbaby was indeed redirected to target tutuu.
Let's assume JJJ's ability did indeed every visit on tutuu.

But... tutuu was still killed.
And it wasn't meatbaby.

So you should have received a result of at least two visits. A killer and meatbaby with her veggies.

This results in your claim and now counter-claim being utter lies.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:53 am Blame me if you want, but “my role can be be redirected” is not part of my role card. ANY role can be redirected. If I see some visit a night kill I am going to vote for them every time. This is the improbable exception to a very basic rule.

We are into an early phase situation of rage lynching you, because you couldn't articulate last Day that you can track every visit and that meatbaby's visit was the only one.

Leading to Zenon being believed with this kind of clearer, more certain on paper mech read.

JJJ's clarifications have brought this claim game to a total stalemate.

JJJ's and Zenon's claims are now fucking identical.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:49 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:48 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:43 am Hello. I did not lie. I was subjected to shenanigans. Welcome to closed role madness.

Folks aren’t going to believe me unfortunately, and I believe the game is at 6 vs. 4 (barring unseen independent activity). So we’re about to lose the game.

I’ll see if I can work a miracle, but it is a very bad time.

First thought is not to be enamoured with you playing the "shenanigans" card on your read.

Why did you not, for the whole duration of Day 3, contemplate or made caveats that your read can be limited?

There’s no reason to do that. I have a role and a night result. Any closed setup can potentially have redirection abilities, but meatbaby literally didn’t even deny it. Game is baked.

Agree(d) with meatball's uninspired defence.

You are also at fault for not having clarified any of the above in your claim.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:43 am Hello. I did not lie. I was subjected to shenanigans. Welcome to closed role madness.

Folks aren’t going to believe me unfortunately, and I believe the game is at 6 vs. 4 (barring unseen independent activity). So we’re about to lose the game.

I’ll see if I can work a miracle, but it is a very bad time.

First thought is not to be enamoured with you playing the "shenanigans" card on your read.

Why did you not, for the whole duration of Day 3, contemplate or made caveats that your read can be limited?

Why do you project 4 baddies?

Please compare

Zenon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:09 pm
I see every one who visits a target

I watched Rondo

Moto visited

Moto killed

Moto is scum

GGs

Zenon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 11:24 pm
I'm quite literally a lookout yes lol my flavor is a pirate and I use my spyglass to see everyone who targeted the player the night I watch them

I fucked up thinking Tutuu would get killed N1 because I didn't understand how her claimed role worked so I watched her n1 there's no double targeting so I tried to watch her n2 but couldn't do I watched JJJ n2 no visits wish I had flipped those but oh well

Watched Rondo last night 1 visit moto

Rondo dead

GGs caught wolf

Deduction:

100% result that moto is bad
If this flips false, 100% certainty that Zenon wolf bullshiter.

VS

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 12:18 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:06 pm Probably a good look for meatbaby too, even if they clearly had frustrations with tutuu

I lied.

I have a 1-shot watcher ability, and I watched tutuu last night. meatbaby visited her.

[VOTE: die_meatbaby] aubergine

Deduction:

No clear result that meatbaby was the sole visitor (aka killer).
No clear result (or clarification) that JJJ could track every visit.
Meatbaby flipped town: no 100% certainy JJJ was bullshitter (and not blunderer).

Belzy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:22 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:20 am Hmm.

Man, I may kinda want to flip moto toDay, lol.

Here’s why:

When asked for clarification, Zenon stated that her ability tracks every visit and that she got the result of only one visit. Therefore, this is a strong wording of a sure-read mafia kill than JJJ worded it.

So if moto flips town, Zenon is legit wolf duper.

That would give town the mentality to flip what they perceive sure wolf flip both toDay and next Day, if necessary.

Does that make sense?

No, it does not make sense. You make a solid case why to not trust Zenon, and you wanna flip moto???

I would go with Zenon, but with more certainty that he is either for sure right (and town) and moto, or for sure bullshitter (and mafia).

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:13 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:09 am

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:04 am Also to think.

Day 2 was Ringo banished from speaking, and Night 3 we have Rondo flipping town.

Day 3 Zenon is banished and is coming back the next day.

Did mafia banish their own teammate to WIFOM it and to make us all believe Zenon be town because of it?

I have to speak my mind that this has the potential to turn into a massive WIFOM wormhole.

I still don’t exactly townread you for shit, so how do I trust that you aren’t brewing this narrative.

My man I'm the only one at this rate that can help you actually win if you're town.

Thank you Superman.

Hmm.

Man, I may kinda want to flip moto toDay, lol.

Here’s why:

When asked for clarification, Zenon stated that her ability tracks every visit and that she got the result of only one visit. Therefore, this is a strong wording of a sure-read mafia kill than JJJ worded it.

So if moto flips town, Zenon is legit wolf duper.

That would give town the mentality to flip what they perceive sure wolf flip both toDay and next Day, if necessary.

Does that make sense?

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:04 am Also to think.

Day 2 was Ringo banished from speaking, and Night 3 we have Rondo flipping town.

Day 3 Zenon is banished and is coming back the next day.

Did mafia banish their own teammate to WIFOM it and to make us all believe Zenon be town because of it?

I have to speak my mind that this has the potential to turn into a massive WIFOM wormhole.

I still don’t exactly townread you for shit, so how do I trust that you aren’t brewing this narrative.

If we lynch JJJ and he is town, we’re left in lylo with flipping moto. If that also flips town, gg zenon.

Belzy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:58 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:54 am

Belzy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:46 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:39 am

Belzy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:36 am

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:34 am The most tinfoil detail about Zenon’s claim could be that it’s overpowered. Contrary to JJJ’s ability claim, Zenon would track every visit. And confirmation that there was only one visit, moto’s.

If not for this difference, Zenon’s claim would be identical to JJJ’s.

There is no way I will trust Zenon's claim over my willingness to lynch an actual outed JJJ.

I’m confused. If you want to lynch JJJ, that would mean you do trust Zenon’s claim.

And can you define in what way JJJ is objectively outed?

How does me wanting to lynch JJJ first equals trusting Zenon's claim?

Aside from getting rid of town after town, a fake red check is outing yourself as scum. Not only that. A part of me did not believe JJJ, because I have a very hard time townreading JJJ. So there is no way I will allow JJJ surviving another day. Anything that will destract us from lynching JJJ, I see as a potential scum move; to stall a lynch on another scum once again. After all mislynches we cannot allow any more mistakes.

Zenon is just like JJJ a potential scummy in my book. So I won't trust Zenon's claim right now. JJJ is my top scumread. Never rescind.

“A fake red check is outing yourself as scum.”

This being JaggedJimmyJay, as wolf, I am certain he was aware of this backlash.

Otherwise, I think there are partial details to his claim. He only claim he saw “one” visit and deduced it must have been the killing blow.

It gives me pause that, this being JaggedJimmyJay, he did not consider for one sec that his read is limited, i.e. meatball was one of several who may have visited tutuu.

So there’s rational space for this being a town mega blunder, too.

JJJ being scum is the most rational and safest conclusion. Do you wanna keep alive a JJJ who fake claimed a red check, and has done only kill off townies so far? Keeping JJJ alive is the biggest mistake ever.

I don’t advocate to spare JJJ.

I advocate to get the best interpretation of the sequence of events. Because I find many conflicting threads.

Including the conflicting image of JJJ, cerebral-headman extraordinaire, resorting to such dumb wolf moves.