The Syndicate

Beginning to think about the possibility of a fully non-vanilla matrix

speedchuck wrote: ↑Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:38 pm

Golden wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:01 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:53 pmIf I have a concern, it's that this mechanic might invite claim behavior which ends up dictating who the mafia team has to kill to survive. Without that free agency, they are handicapped.

It would probably dictate mafia kill strategy from the off. You are forced to kill people who don't claim or hint over people who do. Conversely, as a civilian, it would potentially behoove you to claim or hint in the short term, or create a metagame in which you claim or hint at things you are not. It's certainly an interesting mechanic, but I tend to think town playing well could virtually ensure it was effectively Fool's Gold.

That's a good thing, in my opinion.

I agree, it's a mechanic that can be self balancing if it's designed into the game well.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:53 pmIf I have a concern, it's that this mechanic might invite claim behavior which ends up dictating who the mafia team has to kill to survive. Without that free agency, they are handicapped.

It would probably dictate mafia kill strategy from the off. You are forced to kill people who don't claim or hint over people who do. Conversely, as a civilian, it would potentially behoove you to claim or hint in the short term, or create a metagame in which you claim or hint at things you are not. It's certainly an interesting mechanic, but I tend to think town playing well could virtually ensure it was effectively Fool's Gold.

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:23 pm

Golden wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:20 pm As for the red - I generally draw the line here. People who were lynched on day one and were town may sub back in - they have no info, they weren't killed by the mafia, I don't really see any way their reintroduction negatively influences the game. But I don't like to let people back in who have any insight as a result of ability use or being killed.

what about a vanilla civ who was killed/lynched on N3/D3, replacing no-show player on D4?

Perhaps if every single role was vanilla. If not, whose to say they weren't targeted etc.

As for the red - I generally draw the line here. People who were lynched on day one and were town may sub back in - they have no info, they weren't killed by the mafia, I don't really see any way their reintroduction negatively influences the game. But I don't like to let people back in who have any insight as a result of ability use or being killed.

I disagree with the green most wholeheartedly, but I understand the rationale. When you host, what I find is that in most cases they slowly drop away anyway, but if they do stay it's generally not to plot, it's to hang out, and it keeps the morale high associated with being mafia (which is a rather thankless task). As a civilian, I don't really agree that the reason you lynched someone was to get them out of chat. It was because you caught them and they were bad. Or to get rid of their ability.

The philosophy to me is to counter both inactivity and also strategic non-use of abilities. Sometimes people get roles they don't like and they'd rather not lose, and although that sucks a little for that person - my philosophy is sort of 'you don't always get what you want, but you still have to use it'.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:16 pm Agreed. Cop is more powerful the more vanilla the game and watcher more powerful the less vanilla the game.

Watcher is also more likely to get incorrect results the less vanilla the game (assuming it's designed to balance the watcher).

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:51 am2) In a game where role claiming is prohibited, a cop is inherently more likely to be lynched than he or she would be in a game with legal claims. The most common route by which a cop avoids being mislynched is to claim cop. When that is not an option, errant or opportunistic suspicions are more difficult to evade.

Something that is underrated by people who didn't grow up with janitored nightkills.

I am well known for pulling moves where I actively ask the town to lynch me AS TOWN because I believe it could help them win the game. There are tactics and routes available, you just have to (as a player) imagine how to inhabit a different design space.

S~V~S wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:18 pm Do you think pro civilian is desirable, as opposed to neutral? You don't have a neutral set up, and I think a game biased towards any faction is not balanced.

I think the overall idea is 'include a pro-civilian element here, balance it with a pro-mafia element there'.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:19 am

Golden wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:49 am Cop leaves breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs catch baddies when cop is revealed. It's quite powerful. You have a good point on watcher though, but I thought a watcher generally saw who someone targeted, rather than who targeted them.

Townies don’t listen to legacy reads or look for breadcrumbs. They should but they don’t.

Demonstrably false. Maybe where you're from. Not in my culture (where, to be fair, the roles were usually an open list with no imfodumping, so you'd know what roles existed and could do).

I think it was Syndicate Mafia on this site that was a great example of the cop slowly creating his list of 'friends'. It helped solve the game and left us (me as mafia) with nowhere to turn and we lost in part as a result - we were forced into killing his friends. We didn't see it at the time. Just one example, there are lots of ways to leave breadcrumbs that only get noticed once you're dead.

I spend most of my effort every game looking to see if information is informing people's behaviour, and in the RM world that isn't rare.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:37 pmThis is something Golden mentioned -- the notion that if a mafia BTSC is going to be revealed after a game that it might hinder the team members from saying certain things that they don't want people to see in the post-game. I'm not sure it's a significant thing but I can see the argument.

Entirely depends whose playing. Some players will not offer up a name at all, or won't offer up or agree to certain names at all, if they know that can be seen after the game. I know of a couple of people who play very strongly this way, to the extent that they will specifically ask for a Chatzy rather than a thread because they feel obligated to play suboptimally otherwise.

Cop leaves breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs catch baddies when cop is revealed. It's quite powerful. You have a good point on watcher though, but I thought a watcher generally saw who someone targeted, rather than who targeted them.