JJJ's Hosting Balance Worksheet

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I started putting this together a few months ago and then forgot about it as other matters in life took priority. Soon I will condense some of this material into a smaller checklist-styled thing which can hopefully aid prospective hosts who have the desire in the last-minute portions of getting a game started. Credit for the original idea goes to Spacedaisy. Thanks to Epignosis, Golden, and others for providing feedback on this thing behind the scenes.

This worksheet reflects my opinions of how a game is best balanced. I am not the sole authority on Mafia balance. If anyone disagrees with assertions made here, I'd love to talk about it in the thread below. Even better, if you have things you'd like to see added or questions about balance, put them here!

Rules and Mechanics with One Mafia Team *a separate worksheet for multiple mafia teams may come later

Strongly pro-civilian

• Open setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)
• Unlimited BTSC for all players

Moderately pro-civilian

• Semi-open or matrix setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)

Slightly pro-civilian

• Semi-open or matrix setup light in unique roles (if reveals are legal)
• Closed setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)
• Potentially civilian-friendly independent roles
• Open thread during night phase

Barely pro-civilian

• Plurality voting
• Mafia BTSC made public after a game ends
• Open setup light in unique roles (like an open heist)
• Dead mafia in BTSC illegal
• No double-killing rule for the mafia team

Barely pro-mafia

• Majority/hammer voting (if vote changes are legal)
• Mafia BTSC during day phase legal

Slightly pro-mafia

• Closed setup light in unique roles (like a closed heist)
• Dead mafia in BTSC legal
• Precise roles of night killed players not revealed
• Locked thread during night phase

Moderately pro-mafia

• A rule against role reveals and info-dumping (not an issue in open setups heavy in unique roles, where the rule is necessary)
• A rule which limits vote changes to fewer than 2
• A rule which allows mafia members to submit actions on behalf of their teammates
• Alignments of night killed players not revealed
• Allowing mafia members to submit actions for their teammates

Strongly pro-mafia

• A rule preventing any dead players from winning the game
• A rule preventing any vote changes
• A mechanic preventing any roles from being revealed upon death (lynched or killed)

Role Strength by Faction

Civilian roles

Strongest
• Anything with the capability to cause a resurrection*
• Anything with the capability to cause a recruitment*
• Broad alignment-checking roles (cops)
• Any role with the capability to skip or significantly shorten a night phase

Strong
• Roles which are automatically immune to one night kill (bulletproof)
• Investigative roles which can view who targets a selected player (watcher)
• Civilian pairs or trios (if more than that, it's even stronger) who can participate in BTSC from the beginning of the game (masons)
• Roles which can kill during the night phase (vigilante)
• Roles which combine multiple basic abilities with good utility (jailkeeper)
• Uninhibited protective roles (doctor)
• Lie detection roles

Helpful
• Investigative roles which can view who a selected player targets (tracker)
• Inhibited protective roles (bodyguard)
• Disruptive roles (misdirection roles, blocker, bus driver)
• Any civilian role which can freely change which player is lynched
• Civilian roles with more than the standard voting power (doublevoter, extra vote distributor), this is stronger in an open setup
• Messenger roles which can communicate anonymously with other players or the public thread
• Roles which can see snippets of BTSC content
• Roles which are immune to one lynch (significantly stronger in open setups, weaker and arguably harmful in closed setups)

Harmful
• A role without direct voting control or voting power (tree stump)
• Investigated or revealed improperly (miller)
• Passively can cause mafia benefit (beloved princess)
• Traitor roles within the civilian faction designed to serve the mafia in secret

Mafia roles

Strongest
• Anything with the capability to cause a resurrection*
• Anything with the capability to cause a recruitment*
• Any role which can be revealed to be anything other than itself upon death (seemer, role forger), slightly weaker when role claiming is legal and in an open setup
• Any mafia role which can freely change which player is lynched
• Any mafia role which is immune to even one lynch (weaker than a lynch switch but still very strong)
• Infiltration roles that can corrupt a civilian BTSC group (weaker in an open setup)
• Any role with the capability to skip or significantly shorten a day phase
• Role deactivator (permanent)

Strong
• Any role which can prevent a player's role from being revealed upon death (janitor)
• Any mafia role designed to counter a congruent town role (ninja, strongman, godfather)
• Disruptive roles (misdirection, blocker, bus driver)
• Investigative role which can identify roles of other players (role cop)
• Role stealer
• Silencer

Helpful
• Mafia roles with more than the standard voting power (double voter, extra vote distributor), this is weaker in an open setup and significantly stronger in a closed setup
• Cursing roles

Harmful
• Mafia member who is excluded from BTSC and/or unknown to teammates

How many players on each side?

NOTE: The numbers pictured below are intended to serve as a basic guideline. These assume a game is already balanced in other areas such as mechanics and role strength. These numbers may need to be adjusted to account for whatever unique balance-impacting elements have been incorporated into a game's makeup.

EDIT: needs revisions

Spoiler: show

Other significant balance issues:

• *A resurrection mechanic or role is a gigantic benefit to whichever faction possesses it. If this is to be included in any capacity, a strong counter-balance should be incorporated. If the resurrection is not guaranteed to affect a specific faction, it can still throw the balance of a game a great deal – consider weighting the effect with a negative consequence.

• *A recruitment mechanic or role is a gigantic benefit to whichever faction possesses it. If this is to be included in any capacity, a strong counter-balance should be incorporated. If the recruitment is not guaranteed to affect a specific faction, it can still throw the balance of a game a great deal – consider weighting the effect with a negative consequence. If the recruitment favors a mafia team, this can wholly decide who wins the game – it is the biggest possible benefit a mafia team can enjoy. If the recruitment benefits a civilian or independent team, it is a little less potent but still very significant. The only faction for whom recruitment isn’t inherently a huge power is the cult faction – it’s their basic function.

[Quin]

I talk a lot about how much I like tree stumps, so I'll talk a little bit as to why it's not necessarily a "harmful" civilian role. Granted, the obvious drawback is that a stumps activation removes civilians of one precious vote (and sometimes stumps don't count as living civilians, affecting mafia win-cons), but it provides a couple of unique benefits in return.

* It gives the stump confirmed townie status which, if the stump is under pressure before activation, can help the thread get back on track.
* The immune status will remove any "restrictions" the player has to worry about. For example, some civilians withhold everything they're thinking because they don't want to draw attention as a night kill target. Stumps can word vomit all over the place and not have to worry about the repercussions.
* Much like a thread speaker role, activated stumps become a trustworthy player for civilians to bounce ideas off of or seek inspiration from. Huge benefit in this in getting townies engaged, out of tunnels, and whatever else can be detrimental to the civilian effort.

It's a bit awkward in deciding whether the benefits outweigh the costs with that kind of role. In the end it comes down to exactly who has that role and what the conditions for activation there are. On the former, I think some players would do the stump role justice and others not so much. A JaggedJimmyJay would make the most of the role, whereas a Dom might not. It's reliant on the player activating and being able to produce enough valuable content and keep players thinking and engaged to account for the vote that they've lost in activation.

I won't argue that stumps are a highly rated civilian role, but for me they fall on barely civilian, transitioning depending on how well it's used.

[Quin]

Since we had a stump in Phenon which doesn't match my definition of a tree stump, here's how I broadly define a tree stump.

* Begins with vanilla townie status
* Must PM the host to activate, either with instant activation or end-of-phase activation. If it's the latter, player won't activate if scheduled to die that phase
* Player is revealed as a tree stump but does not lose civilian affiliation
* Player can no longer vote and no longer counts in the civilian/mafia ratio
* Player is immune to all actions and cannot be voted for

[Ricochet]

aint readin

[JaggedJimmyJay]

aint readin

You read every word. It's okay to admit it.

[mention]Quin[/mention]

I can see your argument for a tree stump being positive, and in some situations it might work out that way. We can recall the 2015 GOC when Rico was essentially a tree stump and ended up setting the post count record for the site -- if the player with the role gives maximum effort, then it can be pro-civilian. Its biggest drawbacks are seen toward endgame when that missing vote and civilian slot become crucial.

[speedchuck]

I guess stump can be a huge positive for town (not a handicapped role like bastard cop), but when considering balance, I'd agree with JJJ. Having a possible extra day to find scum is pretty big, and that one extra vote could do it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Malfunctioning roles are something that I didn't cover, like the alternative screwy cops. They are probably harmful by default, though a cop with backwards checks can become positive once the malfunction is discovered (all prior checks become objective even if in reverse).

[Epignosis]

A civilian I can't kill is a terrifying civilian.

[Marmot]

I seem to recall a game recently where mafia kills failed 44% of the time because of civilian roles.

[DharmaHelper]

I never know how to split the teams when making a game. Thanks JJ

[Dragon D. Luffy]

What is a mountainous setup?

How does revealing something after the game ends affect balance?

Also: "Mafia BTSC during day phase legal" appears in two different categories.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Pretty good topic btw. I love mafia theory.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

A good way to balance bulletproof civilians is giving mafia easy access to strongman kills (called super kills in my other site).

Like, make them limited in some way (limited shots or cooldown), but give the mafia the way to get rid of a particularly annoying player on rare occasion.

As a rule of thumb I follow, if town finds a mafia, they deserve to kill them. If mafia finds a town PR, they deserve to kill them. A strongman rewards mafia teams who can find power roles by letting them get rid of them more easily if they aim it right.

Likewise, I very rarely make town roles with an infinite number of bulletproof, and when I do, I add a clause that surviving a kill makes them voteless in the next day.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What is a mountainous setup?

All players on both sides are vanilla.

How does revealing something after the game ends affect balance?

This is something Golden mentioned -- the notion that if a mafia BTSC is going to be revealed after a game that it might hinder the team members from saying certain things that they don't want people to see in the post-game. I'm not sure it's a significant thing but I can see the argument.

Also: "Mafia BTSC during day phase legal" appears in two different categories.

Good call, thanks.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I’m going to speak tonight in defense of the Watcher role, which I perceive as significantly better than the cop role.

Cop role allows you a roughly 1/3rd to 1/4th chance of catching scum and alternatively confirming a civvy each night. HOWEVER in setups without info dumping, this is significantly weakened.

In the case of baddies with good cases on them, they’d have been caught anyway. In the case of baddies with little in thread reason to suspect them, the cop risks failing to actually get the baddie they know lynched. Same goes for defending townies you find. See: MK for an example of a cop (Jack) failing to get a low posting scum player (Simon) lynched and the town not picking up on a confirmed town low poster (Dom).

If claiming is allowed, the cop is still significantly weakened by roles like misdirector, commander, bus driver, miller and godfather. There’s also the possibility of being naive/paranoid/reverse/random.

So to summarize, you have to pick out a baddie and be able to get them lynched anyway to be a successful cop and the role itself has several hard counters and basically can’t be trusted after it is revealed.

That is, unless there is a watcher.

A watcher doesn’t have to guess who the scum is. They just have to guess what they’re going to do.

Player claims cop? Watch them and catch the scum misdirector.

Player gets confirmed town or claims doctor or vigilante? Watch them and catch the mafia hit man.

Supatownie leading the hunt? Watch them and catch the silencer or insanifier.

Player you found targeting X on Night 1 claims to have targeted Y on Night 1 several days later? Caught the liar.

Player you found targeting a player they don’t suspect on Night 2 later claims to be a blocker? Caught the liar.

When a cop catches mafia, there are a million excuses. Miller, misdirection, insanity. When a watcher catches a baddie, they’re more likely to make excuses that explain away the more common cop role. Additionally, getting multiple names on watch results allows you to potentially rule out misdirection. Ninja roles are generally rarer than godfathers.

All of this causes the mafia to not take obvious strong actions if they suspect a watcher exists. Claimed doctors cannot simply be killed. Claimed info gatherers cannot simply be misdirected. Known townies cannot simply be blocked, silenced or insanitied. The mere existence of a watcher strengthens all other townie roles.

In summary, watchers can catch baddies and confirm townies in more ways than a cop can without having to already know who is bad, watchers do not have nearly as many hard counters as cops and watchers strengthen all town roles by forcing suboptimal scum play.

Hands down, watcher is one of the most powerful town roles.

[Golden]

Cop leaves breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs catch baddies when cop is revealed. It's quite powerful. You have a good point on watcher though, but I thought a watcher generally saw who someone targeted, rather than who targeted them.

[Golden]

This is something Golden mentioned -- the notion that if a mafia BTSC is going to be revealed after a game that it might hinder the team members from saying certain things that they don't want people to see in the post-game. I'm not sure it's a significant thing but I can see the argument.

Entirely depends whose playing. Some players will not offer up a name at all, or won't offer up or agree to certain names at all, if they know that can be seen after the game. I know of a couple of people who play very strongly this way, to the extent that they will specifically ask for a Chatzy rather than a thread because they feel obligated to play suboptimally otherwise.

[Quin]

Cop leaves breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs catch baddies when cop is revealed. It's quite powerful. You have a good point on watcher though, but I thought a watcher generally saw who someone targeted, rather than who targeted them.

That's a tracker. A watcher is the reverse.

I've known people to consider watchers a bastard role before. It's a very powerful role.

..But tree stumps are better.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Cop leaves breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs catch baddies when cop is revealed. It's quite powerful. You have a good point on watcher though, but I thought a watcher generally saw who someone targeted, rather than who targeted them.

Townies don’t listen to legacy reads or look for breadcrumbs. They should but they don’t.

[Golden]

Cop leaves breadcrumbs. Breadcrumbs catch baddies when cop is revealed. It's quite powerful. You have a good point on watcher though, but I thought a watcher generally saw who someone targeted, rather than who targeted them.

Townies don’t listen to legacy reads or look for breadcrumbs. They should but they don’t.

Demonstrably false. Maybe where you're from. Not in my culture (where, to be fair, the roles were usually an open list with no imfodumping, so you'd know what roles existed and could do).

I think it was Syndicate Mafia on this site that was a great example of the cop slowly creating his list of 'friends'. It helped solve the game and left us (me as mafia) with nowhere to turn and we lost in part as a result - we were forced into killing his friends. We didn't see it at the time. Just one example, there are lots of ways to leave breadcrumbs that only get noticed once you're dead.

I spend most of my effort every game looking to see if information is informing people's behaviour, and in the RM world that isn't rare.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think a watcher is definitely stronger than a tracker, and I might call it the second-strongest of the basic/commonplace civilian roles.

Behind the cop.

Every cop ID is precious. When I am a cop, IDing mafia isn’t even my objective. It’s sorting the players who are likely to survive the longest into either alignment. I literally don’t care what the result is other than how it shapes process of elimination.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And while I agree that legacies aren’t always followed when they should be, that doesn’t apply to cops. People follow those clues, because they’re obvious and critical. There’s little or no need for interpretation.

[Jackofhearts2005]

And while I agree that legacies aren’t always followed when they should be, that doesn’t apply to cops. People follow those clues, because they’re obvious and critical. There’s little or no need for interpretation.

I mean, MK just happened. It was very clear that I was either a cop or lie detector. I don't remember anyone following up on my reads to try to figure out my targets.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And while I agree that legacies aren’t always followed when they should be, that doesn’t apply to cops. People follow those clues, because they’re obvious and critical. There’s little or no need for interpretation.

I mean, MK just happened. It was very clear that I was either a cop or lie detector. I don't remember anyone following up on my reads to try to figure out my targets.

I think if you’d flipped fully we’d have seen more on that front. Some people need total confirmation.

There’s also the bit where later in the game, the active living players were nearly all mafia or independent.

[Jackofhearts2005]

And while I agree that legacies aren’t always followed when they should be, that doesn’t apply to cops. People follow those clues, because they’re obvious and critical. There’s little or no need for interpretation.

I mean, MK just happened. It was very clear that I was either a cop or lie detector. I don't remember anyone following up on my reads to try to figure out my targets.

I think if you’d flipped fully we’d have seen more on that front. Some people need total confirmation.

There’s also the bit where later in the game, the active living players were nearly all mafia or independent.

Fair enough on the second point.

But on the first, aren't cops usually not going to flip based on common Syndicate rules?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

But on the first, aren't cops usually not going to flip based on common Syndicate rules?

I think there are a couple reasons why this concern may apply less than you'd expect, at least in this specific environment:

1) Fully janitored night kills are more common here than elsewhere yes, but they are less "common" than they once were. When heists are incorporated into the dialogue, and some of the more recent jobs/side missions too, that rule hasn't been as constant as it once was.

2) In a game where role claiming is prohibited, a cop is inherently more likely to be lynched than he or she would be in a game with legal claims. The most common route by which a cop avoids being mislynched is to claim cop. When that is not an option, errant or opportunistic suspicions are more difficult to evade.

Also consider that watcher-borne information is subject to the same concerns (or a tracker -- see TSP re: nutella in MK -- or other investigative roles of this nature). If it cannot be conclusively revealed, civilians are going to have to make educated guesses and/or dig into the legacies.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In the end I can understand your perspective. When I assembled this balance worksheet, I thought long over where "watcher" should be placed. I decided it's closer in strength to the likes of a jailkeeper (which I might call the third-most powerful commonplace civilian role) than to a cop. Watcher is the strongest of the "strong" classified roles though, and if someone wanted to place it in the same category as a cop I wouldn't freak out.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I also think there are scenarios where the rest of a setup dictates the strength of a role.

In this setup:

1) 9 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian cop VS. 3 vanilla mafia
2) 9 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian watcher VS. 3 vanilla mafia

I believe the first option is absolutely better for the civilian faction. It isn't even close in that circumstance, IMO.

However, if we look at this one:

1) 5 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian cop, 1 civilian tracker, 1 civilian doctor, 1 civilian vigilante, 1 civilian roleblocker VS. 1 mafia strongman, 1 mafia ninja, 1 mafia bus driver
2) 5 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian watcher, 1 civilian tracker, 1 civilian doctor, 1 civilian vigilante, 1 civilian roleblocker VS. 1 mafia strongman, 1 mafia ninja, 1 mafia bus driver

The disparity is less clear. I think I still would call #1 stronger overall, but without the same degree of obviousness.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Agreed. Cop is more powerful the more vanilla the game and watcher more powerful the less vanilla the game.

Also agreed that jailkeeper is one of the next most powerful roles after cop and watcher.

I tend to place uncommon roles that are not easily eliminated like bulletproof (infinite vest) and stump high on the power list as well, probably higher than those 3 but it depends on the setup and is more player dependent. A bulletproof Jimmy will be far from a bulletproof Dom in terms of leading the town. A cop Jimmy may not be that much stronger than a cop Dom in terms of getting mod confirmed baddies. A bulletproof players is more useful with 5 killers running around than with 1. On some forums, bulletproof dons or serial killers are so common, surviving a kill is looked on as suspicious.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Watcher is really underrated. People tend to associate it with the Tracker but it's much, much better. A watcher could possibly function like a doctor by watching a claimed PR and making mafia afraid to kill them. It can also find mafia way more easily than the Tracker, and perhaps even then the Cop. I guess its main downside is the lack of civ results, though.

In my games a Watcher has never managed to do anything useful though, but I attribute that more to players being inactive/unlucky.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Watcher also defeats the OP role mafia busdriver.

[S~V~S]

Do you think pro civilian is desirable, as opposed to neutral? You don't have a neutral set up, and I think a game biased towards any faction is not balanced.

[Golden]

Do you think pro civilian is desirable, as opposed to neutral? You don't have a neutral set up, and I think a game biased towards any faction is not balanced.

I think the overall idea is 'include a pro-civilian element here, balance it with a pro-mafia element there'.

[Golden]

2) In a game where role claiming is prohibited, a cop is inherently more likely to be lynched than he or she would be in a game with legal claims. The most common route by which a cop avoids being mislynched is to claim cop. When that is not an option, errant or opportunistic suspicions are more difficult to evade.

Something that is underrated by people who didn't grow up with janitored nightkills.

I am well known for pulling moves where I actively ask the town to lynch me AS TOWN because I believe it could help them win the game. There are tactics and routes available, you just have to (as a player) imagine how to inhabit a different design space.

[S~V~S]

Do you think pro civilian is desirable, as opposed to neutral? You don't have a neutral set up, and I think a game biased towards any faction is not balanced.

I think the overall idea is 'include a pro-civilian element here, balance it with a pro-mafia element there'.

OK< the OP seemed to be saying that pro civ is inherently better, I must have misunderstood.

[Golden]

Agreed. Cop is more powerful the more vanilla the game and watcher more powerful the less vanilla the game.

Watcher is also more likely to get incorrect results the less vanilla the game (assuming it's designed to balance the watcher).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do you think pro civilian is desirable, as opposed to neutral? You don't have a neutral set up, and I think a game biased towards any faction is not balanced.

I actually had a baseline "null advantage" setup at first but removed it to avoid confusion. It looked like this:

~ 10 civilians (9 vanilla and 1 cop with pregame peek) vs. 3 mafia (all vanilla)
~ Thread locked at night
~ Mafia BTSC locked during day
~ Role claiming and dumping legal
~ Plurality voting
- A few more wrinkles, etc...

That's the most balanced setup I know of, and it has played out that way in multiple websites over numerous trials in my experience (and it bears out statistically on the 2+2 forum where it is very often employed). This sort of served as a foundation by which I decided on a direction of advantage for each mechanic or role stemming from this point.

Even this this can skew pro-civilian though in a place like this where the mafia members may not have a lot of experience with fake role claiming (granted, the civilians don't either -- see Currents Mafia).

I think a truly "neutral" setup is impossible, but Golden is essentially right. The idea here is to get as close as one reasonably can by mixing wrinkles which benefit each side comparably.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I just remembered to add another item too:

• A rule which allows mafia members to submit actions on behalf of their teammates

I have placed this in the "moderately pro-mafia" category, though it could also probably fit in the "slightly pro-mafia" category. I think this is a significant allowance for a mafia team in that it allows them to forego any team member who is inactive -- a luxury which a civilian faction simply cannot enjoy when its members are inactive. The lack of a viable counter can be very beneficial to the bad guys.

[S~V~S]

I just remembered to add another item too:

• A rule which allows mafia members to submit actions on behalf of their teammates

I have placed this in the "moderately pro-mafia" category, though it could also probably fit in the "slightly pro-mafia" category. I think this is a significant allowance for a mafia team in that it allows them to forego any team member who is inactive -- a luxury which a civilian faction simply cannot enjoy when its members are inactive. The lack of a viable counter can be very beneficial to the bad guys.

That is something I used to allow that, should I ever host again, I will not.

I also like what the hosts did in the current GOC; send your PM or your power will be randomized. That is an interesting counter to inactivity.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I also like what the hosts did in the current GOC; send your PM or your power will be randomized. That is an interesting counter to inactivity.

That's a favorite of mine too, especially for the night kill.

Submit something, or the kill is randomized to anyone -- including your own team.

[speedchuck]

Strongly pro-civilian

• Open setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)

I want to talk about this because you said, in your Greece sign-up thread, that it doesn't work. I agree that it doesn't work by itself. However...

Soup Kill: At night, instead of making the group Night Kill, a witch (mafia) may instead choose to drink Soup. Doing so allows them to Match a player to an Innocent role one at a time until they are incorrect or choose to stop. Each correctly Matched player dies.

A successful Match will only give the 'so and so died' message. On an incorrect match, the message is 'Xanthippe the Witch attempted to Soupkill Yolanda the [incorrect role], but failed', but if no players have been killed that night with Soup, the identity of the Witch is not revealed - 'A Witch attempted to Soupkill Amelia the [incorrect role], but failed'.

This is the counter. This is possibly my favorite mechanic in any mafia game ever, this and things like it. I've played 4 games with the 'soupkill' mechanic, and not only does it allow for awesome multi-kills, but it provides options for claiming should the players think it worth it and natural consequences for when it wasn't worth it.

I've got a game with this mechanic lined up as a side-mission, but it'd be really cool to see stuff more like it. From a balance perspective, what do you think of it?

[Golden]

The philosophy to me is to counter both inactivity and also strategic non-use of abilities. Sometimes people get roles they don't like and they'd rather not lose, and although that sucks a little for that person - my philosophy is sort of 'you don't always get what you want, but you still have to use it'.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

strategic non-use of abilities.

I don't care for this either, or deliberately skipped night kills.

One of my least favorite dynamics is when a civilian is inactive and only one mafioso is still alive. The mafioso is forced to either skip the kill or kill the inactive player to prevent confirming him or her as a civilian. That should never happen -- the civilians shouldn't benefit from one of their own failing to play the game. In situations like that, a randomized kill mechanic eliminates all these problems.

[dunya]

I just remembered to add another item too:

• A rule which allows mafia members to submit actions on behalf of their teammates

I have placed this in the "moderately pro-mafia" category, though it could also probably fit in the "slightly pro-mafia" category. I think this is a significant allowance for a mafia team in that it allows them to forego any team member who is inactive -- a luxury which a civilian faction simply cannot enjoy when its members are inactive. The lack of a viable counter can be very beneficial to the bad guys.

ehhhhh. it sucks when you have a team of 3 vs 16 for example and that random scum team of 3 have 2 inactives and 1 active player and no replacements in the game. sometimes the mod makes exceptions to balance the game out. I don't fault them tbh.

I hate it when town kills a scum and a mod allows them to stay on and chat and plot. or when mafia kill a townie and then that townie replaces another inactive. THOSE should both be banned forever. We got rid of you for a reason: you shouldn't be impacting the game imo.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Strongly pro-civilian

• Open setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)

I want to talk about this because you said, in your Greece sign-up thread, that it doesn't work. I agree that it doesn't work by itself. However...

Soup Kill: At night, instead of making the group Night Kill, a witch (mafia) may instead choose to drink Soup. Doing so allows them to Match a player to an Innocent role one at a time until they are incorrect or choose to stop. Each correctly Matched player dies.

A successful Match will only give the 'so and so died' message. On an incorrect match, the message is 'Xanthippe the Witch attempted to Soupkill Yolanda the [incorrect role], but failed', but if no players have been killed that night with Soup, the identity of the Witch is not revealed - 'A Witch attempted to Soupkill Amelia the [incorrect role], but failed'.

This is the counter. This is possibly my favorite mechanic in any mafia game ever, this and things like it. I've played 4 games with the 'soupkill' mechanic, and not only does it allow for awesome multi-kills, but it provides options for claiming should the players think it worth it and natural consequences for when it wasn't worth it.

I've got a game with this mechanic lined up as a side-mission, but it'd be really cool to see stuff more like it. From a balance perspective, what do you think of it?

To ensure I follow properly -- in this scenario the witch would potentially be able to kill more than one civilian in one night phase via this matching method. True or no?

[speedchuck]

Strongly pro-civilian

• Open setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)

I want to talk about this because you said, in your Greece sign-up thread, that it doesn't work. I agree that it doesn't work by itself. However...

Soup Kill: At night, instead of making the group Night Kill, a witch (mafia) may instead choose to drink Soup. Doing so allows them to Match a player to an Innocent role one at a time until they are incorrect or choose to stop. Each correctly Matched player dies.

A successful Match will only give the 'so and so died' message. On an incorrect match, the message is 'Xanthippe the Witch attempted to Soupkill Yolanda the [incorrect role], but failed', but if no players have been killed that night with Soup, the identity of the Witch is not revealed - 'A Witch attempted to Soupkill Amelia the [incorrect role], but failed'.

This is the counter. This is possibly my favorite mechanic in any mafia game ever, this and things like it. I've played 4 games with the 'soupkill' mechanic, and not only does it allow for awesome multi-kills, but it provides options for claiming should the players think it worth it and natural consequences for when it wasn't worth it.

I've got a game with this mechanic lined up as a side-mission, but it'd be really cool to see stuff more like it. From a balance perspective, what do you think of it?

To ensure I follow properly -- in this scenario the witch would potentially be able to kill more than one civilian in one night phase via this matching method. True or no?

Chainkill for every role you successfully match. Until you get it wrong or stop.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Chainkill for every role you successfully match. Until you get it wrong or stop.

And this is done only once, or whenever the witch wants?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I hate it when town kills a scum and a mod allows them to stay on and chat and plot. or when mafia kill a townie and then that townie replaces another inactive. THOSE should both be banned forever. We got rid of you for a reason: you shouldn't be impacting the game imo.

I agree with the green in pretty much every scenario. A mafioso who has been lynched or killed has been deprived of the right to make a difference in the game, just like a civilian who has been lynched or killed.

I agree with the red in most scenarios. Ideally it shouldn't happen. I would personally not rejoin a game in which I was night killed -- that is not fair. I understand though that sometimes hosts feel like they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and every option is shitty. So they pick one. I would probably modkill before I resort to this, but I don't fault a host who is not so inclined.

[Golden]

I disagree with the green most wholeheartedly, but I understand the rationale. When you host, what I find is that in most cases they slowly drop away anyway, but if they do stay it's generally not to plot, it's to hang out, and it keeps the morale high associated with being mafia (which is a rather thankless task). As a civilian, I don't really agree that the reason you lynched someone was to get them out of chat. It was because you caught them and they were bad. Or to get rid of their ability.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think a "dead red" type compromise could be agreeable wherein dead mafia members can remain in BTSC, but they aren't allowed to discuss game-relevant matters. They have to talk about their lunch salad and/or their favorite kind of donuts.