The Syndicate

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:41 am Even if I'm wary of arguments, I'll go ahead and ask the question:

JaggedJimmyJay: What was the motive behind Marmot's play? This was D4, right? The day TSP got lynched? If the running wagons were between LC and TSP, why wouldn't Marmot just vote there? Was he trying to save Lapluie? Nutella? TSP?



Give me a reason that Marmot would intentionally, as scum, be obtuse about Glorf's read/firm and place a vote in a certain place, drawing attention to himself when all four wagons are town (according to Glorf's townfirm thing. He firmed Lapluie, right?).

Tell me why. And if you can't come up with a WHY, then you admit to not understanding Marmot's reason for doing what he did.

When a day phase is literally moments away from its end, the last thing [insert average mafioso] wants to do is change votes to a civilian mislynch in a close tally and end up answering questions for it later. Even if the counterwagons are civilian, nobody knows that until some undefined later point. There doesn't have to be any "save". Any changed vote brings questions, and with a minute to play Marmot elected not to put himself in front of those questions. Instead he opened himself to the questions that absolutely nobody in this game has asked him except me.

At face value, a refusal to heed the words of Glorfindel, the known Never Liar, when he says someone is confirmed town, even without knowing why, is hard to take. Answer your own question -- how does that happen in the head of a civilian who is aware of Glorfindel's moral stance on lies?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:23 am Given that Jay claimed alignment in the interests of not getting nightkilled (the only reason to claim IMO), I'd say that he's not siding with town. If he WAS siding with town, his claim wouldn't matter, as Jay is a valid hunter and siding with town puts him in danger of the nightkill again.

The potential of being night killed is exactly irrelevant to my claim.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:23 am Or, of course, Jay is mafia and doing some screwy and pointless exercise for WIFOM.

You've gathered that much.

When I have people on my team, either civilian or mafioso, they are counting on me to live up to the standard that I have set in many past games. Particularly in the case of a mafia-aligned JJJ, when my teammates open their role cards at the start of a game and see my name included, they know that they are going to get a high-effort and dedicated teammate who will do whatever it takes to help them win the game. That's pressure that I happily shoulder. I don't betray that expectation by screwing around with Wacky WIFOM® or Goofy Gambits®. Hell, I even tried it in Currents (Vompatti role play) and couldn't last more than half a day phase because my teammates needed better play than that.

And when I am on my own with nobody counting on me, that pressure that doesn't exist. The freedom to be screwy is a beautiful thing, and it happens just about as rarely for me as the rarity of "JJJ draws independent role". It's therapeutic for a player like me, because playing The JJJ Way game after game after game can really be exhausting, and it's so much worse when there are two of them happening at once (with all the same people!). Thank goodness I have that freedom this time. The significant exception to this rule of indy conduct would be the Turf Wars prisoner when I felt that I truly owed the civilians something and played for them 100%.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:23 amAll I can rule out is the possibility that Jay is 3P aligned with town.

All this stuff about "3P aligned with ______" is silly. An independent is aligned with him or herself. Everything beyond that is nuanced and situation-dependent. This is even more true in any game wherein the civilian win condition does not dictate the elimination of the independent. I don't trust that you're thinking this through as thoroughly as you want it to look like you are.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:23 am TL;DR if Jay is 3P, we should ignore him completely. Also Marmot might be Sonja or Jax in that case.

That's a fair perspective for those who do not trust me. You do not trust me. You are not ignoring me at all. Indeed, you are making me the central focus of your present "hunt", including after you made this post.

Why?

Kyle is the undisputed winner of the "understand JJJ" contest.

I'll address the rest of that when I'm not sitting in a classroom. For now I just want to muse over the fact speedchuck has suggested I am both a 3rd partier who claimed to avoid night kills (if I am not a civilian, the other possibility he considered), and also that he is willing to vote Wilgy because I might include one scum and one town among my low-poster targets (implying the presence of JJJ teammates). So essentially, I am either a civilian or a 3P or a mafioso.



speedchuck is Marmot's teammate.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:59 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:49 amyou'd love to mislynch yourself

hey hey?

simpsonsthatsthejokememe.jpg

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:52 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:49 am Yes, you'd love to mislynch yourself when it's plausible it'd lose the game or at least bring up a dire LyLo.

No. I thought you were being an ass earlier in the day phase, to the point where I didn't want to play anymore.

Everything I do here is for Mafia purposes. I’ve no intention of trolling or being an ass.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:47 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:42 am Marmot can't decide whether he wants to self-vote. He just danced between the two wagons, I saw it.

If you'd asked me earlier, I'd tell I'd definitely be self-voting and fuck this game.

Yes, you'd love to mislynch yourself when it's plausible it'd lose the game or at least bring up a dire LyLo.

I'm bored of this discussion though. Other folks can read it and decide how they feel.

Marmot can't decide whether he wants to self-vote. He just danced between the two wagons, I saw it.

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:15 am Glorfindel could have been wrong, like manipulated/false info, and still believed what he was saying, and therefore still honest.

Oh absolutely, information could have been manipulated.

Which means that for Marmot to suspect you with this evidence in the thread, he must assume the information was manipulated. We can grant possibilities all day long, but to disregard the evidence in favor if an inherently much less likely scenario of tampering or manipulation is nonsense -- it's plain evidence that a read is fake.

Glorfindel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:39 pm LC is confirmed Town you fools

I DON’T LIE!

Marmot, please look at me with a straight face, or at least look at my avatar with a straight face, and tell me that this post indicates a hunch Glorfindel has. It's just a hunch. Long Con is a civilian read. That's where he leans. He isn't sure.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:06 am I don't understand how anyone would trust or listen to you after that.

Critical thinking is the darnedest thing.

It's fun that in this incredibly fake effort to make me look like a scary boogie monster, your distrust of my reads is factually, objectively equivalent to a distrust of Glorfindel's reads -- the same reads he expressed with a hell of a lot more confidence than I have. To have this opinion, you are required by logic itself to have no care in the world that Glorfindel used the word confirmed to describe one of your suspects. You can't be fussed even a tiny bit that Glorfindel did a complete 180 when a night phase ended on your other suspect.

You're so fake. It's up the other people to see it as plainly as I do.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:55 am Jay came in after the Day 4 lynch and said you and lap are civilians. I don't believe it, or anything he says at this point. I think that was a bold misdirect from him.

Long Con is mafia because I said he isn't?

The power I wield.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:48 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:43 am

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:33 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:22 pm Y'all can distrust me all you like, but here's one basic recommendation:

It isn't all about whether you love my case. It's about whether you love the player I am casing. You look at Marmot's content and decide for yourselves.

"You don't have to like my content, but it's still better than his content."

That is not what I said. It has nothing to do with what I said.

Yes it does.

No, Marmot. Here's what I said, re-worded for your comprehensive pleasure:

"If you don't trust me or believe in my case, that's fine. What should matter to you more is whether you trust Marmot given his own content in this game, regardless of how you feel about me, the person trying to lynch him."

There was no comparison between Marmot's content and JJJ's content. That is irrelevant.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:42 am Jay, if you weren't going to vote for me today, who would you vote for?

Wilgy or novaselinenever would be agreeable enough lynches, even if not nearly as well-inspired.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:33 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:22 pm Y'all can distrust me all you like, but here's one basic recommendation:

It isn't all about whether you love my case. It's about whether you love the player I am casing. You look at Marmot's content and decide for yourselves.

"You don't have to like my content, but it's still better than his content."

That is not what I said. It has nothing to do with what I said.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:50 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:55 pm Glorfindel's reason for believing in lapluie is definitely not the same as his reason for believing in me. Glorfindel's role or ability is not the reason he cleared me. And that is why I believe him about lapluie.

This just broke everything that I was following in the thread. I want to see reactions to this frickin paragraph from everyone who has taken place in today's snitty arguments. Please and thanks.

I think I know what he's doing there and I'll respect it by not talking about it beyond this sentence (unless LC himself requests it). It doesn't impact my reads on anyone.

Y'all can distrust me all you like, but here's one basic recommendation:

It isn't all about whether you love my case. It's about whether you love the player I am casing. You look at Marmot's content and decide for yourselves.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:48 pm You brought up this nonsense point in the first place.

Your part in the dialogue is nonsense. I don't believe anything you're saying to me.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:48 pmYou asked me why I thought, said, and did what I did, then are telling me that's not what I thought, said, or did. Who are you trying to convince? I know why I asked what I asked, I'm the one who asked it in that specific situation. Yes, I probably should have considered other reasons for his behavior, but it didn't cross my mind in that moment. My assumption was that he said what he did based on something that happened in the thread because that's the spirit of the game that I'm used to.

Yes, you're telling me things and I don't believe the things. I asked the questions to encourage responses, and the responses don't satisfy. This is what you were presented with at that EOD:

Glorfindel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:19 pm

lapluie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:17 pm LMFAO YOU GUYS AREN'T RVEN SEEING THIS, LONGCON & SIMON ARE MAFIA Oh my god.. they just freaking piled up the votes.. I'm wheezing

Lon Con is NOT Mafia! No way. No how.

Glorfindel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:37 pm LC is confirmed Town

Marmot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:38 pm

Glorfindel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:37 pm And there we have it - our Mafia voting for the confirmed Townie (LC)

Who's a confirmed townie?

Glorfindel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:39 pm LC is confirmed Town you fools

I DON’T LIE!

I mean, what the hell is that bolded question there. You're not paying attention to what Glorfindel is saying to you because you don't care. You already picked your vote. All of these posts came at the very end of the day phase, with literally moments to spare (the deadline came one minute after your question), and you expected Glorfindel to dig up some thread evidence to support calling a guy a "confirmed townie"? That makes no sense and I just think it's bullshit. I'm not sure there's an argument you could provide to convince me otherwise. I've still asked the questions to be thorough, but the answers aren't doing it.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:48 pmI don't appreciate the way you've framed that EoD.

My job in this game is not to earn your appreciation.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:48 pmI also don't appreciate what you're doing right now. You've asked me questions, made accusations, and put an inaccurate twist on what I said. I will defend against them because you're wrong. I would not insist on continuing this argument if you weren't persisting so hard to portray my alignment based on your interpretation of what I said.

I am persisting because the arguments you are using in your defense strike me as crap. I am not satisfied with crap. If you really believe that they aren't crap, then you should feel free to expand or restate them however you feel is prudent. I don't believe you.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:48 pmI also don't appreciate your beef with me in general. I don't know why you want to lynch me so damn bad. I don't understand your motives, nor do I trust your behavior at all. These are not the droids you're looking for.

I have no beef with Marmot in general. I do suspect that Mortal Kombat Marmot is a member of the Outworld team however, and as such it would serve to my benefit to see him lynched.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:58 pm If you think it's nonsense, why are you so persistant about it?

I've offered a few reads already recently. Lapluie, Long Con, and Made are my strongest scumreads (not necessarily in that order), I would lynch you for my own self-preservation and ability to focus energy elsewhere, and I think Jack should live.

I've just provided a reason to believe that Glorfindel had information on lapluie which worked in her favor. Review that and tell me what you think. Then tell me why you suspect Long Con, and what Glorfindel's cries to the contrary mean to you if anything. Then tell me about Made.

No. You were aware that it wasn’t about “a piece of in-thread evidence”. He made it pretty obvious. There’s no way you were trying to actually communicate with him, certainly not at the last minute when he was forced to scream to get his point across.

If you insist on carrying out this nonsense argument you might as well provide reads on everybody else too.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:27 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:56 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:16 pm It makes zero sense for Marmot to believe Glorfindel has a moral aversion to lying about his alignment, but no moral aversion to lying about someone else's alignment. That's nonsense. To defend him after he tried to say that is nonsense. Lynch the man.

I did not say Glorfindel was lying.

Your case is built on brusque, curt, and aggressively short statements. Indy Jay is clearly a different type of Jay.

I don't see why any in-thread statement like that should be trusted at face-value. I thought he was being overtly confident based on his belief. Assuming Glorfindel knew what Long Con's alignment is, I didn't think he would come into the thread stating as such. Yes Glorfindel was basically a civilian, but that doesn't mean he's right. Remember when nutella was lynched because we followed a dead civilian's plea to want her? He was wrong. We were wrong.

You di

What my case is made of is meaningless. You didn’t think Glorfindel was making a “read” on LC. You literally asked him what he knew that you did not. Please tell me exactly how Glorfindel is supposed to answer that question within these rules.

Cool phone.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:56 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:16 pm It makes zero sense for Marmot to believe Glorfindel has a moral aversion to lying about his alignment, but no moral aversion to lying about someone else's alignment. That's nonsense. To defend him after he tried to say that is nonsense. Lynch the man.

I did not say Glorfindel was lying.

Your case is built on brusque, curt, and aggressively short statements. Indy Jay is clearly a different type of Jay.

I don't see why any in-thread statement like that should be trusted at face-value. I thought he was being overtly confident based on his belief. Assuming Glorfindel knew what Long Con's alignment is, I didn't think he would come into the thread stating as such. Yes Glorfindel was basically a civilian, but that doesn't mean he's right. Remember when nutella was lynched because we followed a dead civilian's plea to want her? He was wrong. We were wrong.

You di

It was tied or nearly tied for most of the day phase. Two distinct camps of "lynch nutella" and "lynch Simon" had formed.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:28 pm hmmm......

perhaps. how about earlier that day. Was he pushing Simon all day?

No. He made about 5-7 posts during the full day phase before that EOD sequence got rolling, and they were without an obvious direction.

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:12 pm Glorfindel, kindly move your vote to Simon, please.

Let's see how interested Glorfindel was in voting for Simon:

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:21 pm lapluie Made ! Get on over to Simon.

How about lapluie? Was she into it?


Okay. How about Made?


And I'm supposed to believe that Marmot really expected these people to change their votes? It's bullshit. He was being transparently fake. Kill him.

It makes zero sense for Marmot to believe Glorfindel has a moral aversion to lying about his alignment, but no moral aversion to lying about someone else's alignment. That's nonsense. To defend him after he tried to say that is nonsense. Lynch the man.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:03 pmEVERYONE who did not vote for Simon, voted for Nutella. Who was he going to ask other than those who had decided they were voting nutella? Deadies cannot vote, non-players cannot vote.

Honestly...I 100% am scared out of my mind right now because I hate defending people so hard in games because I know it can come back to bite me in the ass. But I have to call bullshit on your claims against marmot. I think they are stupid and feel like it's my responsibility to tell you so.

He didn't ask "everyone" who didn't vote for Simon. He asked the specific few people who indicated that they would not vote for Simon.

Go read it and then tell me my claims are bullshit.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:38 pm The first part of this general case just screams marmot to me. Everyone plays mafia differently and I think this is meta for marmot and it gives me no alarms.

The second part of the case is just confusing to me. He wanted people to vote for Simon (mafia) and not nutella (civ). I don't get how that is pingy.

I don't see how "ignore the pleas of the man who never lies" is either a strategy or a play style. It's a refusal to heed the words of someone you claim to trust when it matters most. That's yuck.

I don't really buy that he "wanted" people to vote for Simon. He was making that request of players who had said all day phase long that they were voting for nutella and not Simon. It was pointless.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:31 pm Fine with me.

I'm getting really emotionally charged these last few mafia games, and I can only step away and recollect so many times. I'd rather just be removed than continue to defend myself day-after-day.

Lynch me please.

How did you feel about the potential of a nutella lynch before it occurred?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:20 pm "latest actions have been detrimental to *my own* cause" only makes sense in the context that you have a unique cause, but "I thought his contributions would help the players in general." implies that you previously thought he was an indie role

the implication you're trying to push here seems to be that you and Jay are both independent, but Jay is a more inconvenient independent, am I very far off the mark?

I guarantee Marmot is not independent.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:15 pm After Tony was lynched, Jay came out of that asserting that myself, Simon, and nutella were mafia. He also claimed that you and Long Con, the two counter-lynches, were civilian. I don't buy those claims.

Also this ongoing "Glorfindel doesn't lie" motto has been taken out of context. I said it early in the game, because Glorfindel doesn't lie about his own alignment. That this sort of behavior transfers to every word he says is opportunistic.

I don't really care about defending myself. He should burn, and so should his allies.

Horseshit. Glorfindel's refusal to lie is well-known as a moral choice. That means he doesn't pick and choose where he is honest. You're full of it. Get lynched.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:50 pm I don't mean to be all "defend marmot!!" because I have no clue what y'all have on him (and if you don't mind telling me what y'all have on him JaggedJimmyJay, that would be great), but I feeel the same damn way about ties in mafia whether I am bad or good. I hate them. They may me crazy uneasy for some reason.

I don't object to someone resisting ties in general. So do I. I care about Marmot resisting that tie, and that's all I'm going to say about it. If you'd like a more general case:

Marmot refused to listen to Glorfindel, the guy who never lies, when he was screaming to prevent a Long Con lynch. Marmot just kept asking him "what do you know??" and "why??" as if those are answerable questions, all while leaving his vote planted firmly on LC's face. Fake.

Marmot "tried" to sway the lynch from nutella to Simon (civilian to mafia), but only by begging for vote switches from players who had made it clear all day long that they were voting for nutella and not Simon. Fake.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:32 pm perhaps I should not post until I catch up. Even still. I see this change...but it doesn't totally convince me. I mean....what if Glor got wrong info? I have seen things like this happen before. I don't trust any "info" to be 100% true in mafia.

I wouldn't call it 100% either. I might call it 95% though. At what point does this extend beyond sensible skepticism and into the realm of paranoia or fear-mongering?

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:35 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:09 pm Marmot,

Why were you resistant to a tie at the very end of the day phase?

I'm always resistant to ties. This game is no different to others.

Then you're mafia. Period.

Also, in case anyone is concerned about the token resurrection/recruitment combination -- I don't think you need to be. Refer to the "least favorite game mechanics" thread in the lounge:

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 pm Another, somewhat related one, is a secret simultaneous resurrection and recruitment to the Mafia, a civilian getting resurrected to the Mafia's team. Such a player almost certainly won't be lynched, and it makes for an easy victory for the Mafia.

I agree by the way. The intrigue and sorcery may be neat, but it is pretty much never balanced.

Glorfindel on lapluie, Night 4:


Glorfindel on lapluie, Day 5:


You can see a clear transition between phases. On Night 4 he started with strong suspicion of lapluie, and even though he was willing to listen to my argument in her favor he didn't 180 it. When the new day phase began though, he was immediate in absolving her and resolute in defending her.

I'm not lynching that.

Glorfindel was highly suspicious of lapluie until I talked it over with him. He seemed convinced by my arguments in her favor, though I was still surprised by his level of confidence in her after that point. I'll have to determine whether a night phase ended somewhere during that period to facilitate his having received information.

Elohcin said earlier in the game that she was waiting for this thing to dwindle to 12 players to get into it, because that'd be easier to keep up with.

[mention]Elohcin[/mention], you have arrived. Go.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:28 am 1. how does everyone currently feel about lapluie? are they cool?

2. @Marmot how are you? what are your thoughts on Jay?

3. @JaggedJimmyJay same question here as number 2 only about Marmot instead.

1. Civilian read. She had Glorfindel's strong endorsement, and I doubt she'd have handled Simon the way she did as his teammate.

3. He's my top suspect. I've already voted accordingly.

lapluie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:48 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:43 pm

lapluie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:42 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:41 pm I voted.

Who did you vote?

Marmot. The poll must have been edited just after that because the vote disappeared. I voted again.

Why you think he'd lynch simon is he was also bad?

Simon is the easiest bus on the board for any of his teammates. That's close to meaningless to me. Also note that he was asking people to move who would have never done so, after an entire day of debate and argument. He asked Glorfindel to move. That was never happening. I think he asked you to move. That was never happening.

Fake.

lapluie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:42 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:41 pm I voted.

Who did you vote?

Marmot. The poll must have been edited just after that because the vote disappeared. I voted again.

I voted.

[mention]Marmot[/mention],

Why were you resistant to a tie at the very end of the day phase?

lapluie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:03 pm TonyStarkPrime

It seems pretty simple. TSP legitimately tracked nutella and caught her targeting the same player who was killed. She wasn't performing the kill though and just happened to target the same player.

Shitty luck for both of them, especially nutella who appears to have been Jax'd out of an opportunity to save herself.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:55 pm Theory:

After some recent game, Epignosis stated that he doesn't care for tied lynches being randomized and planned to attack it a different way. In our game, Kung Lao either wasn't present fast enough to call the tie or is just dead, and Epi/niju elected to "decide" a tied lynch (suggesting at least one extra vote on the Simon wagon) with a double lynch.

Alternate theory:

Kung Lao's one-time use ability is to lynch both people in a tie instead of just choosing one.

I am more confident than I was before this lynch that Marmot is mafia.

Theory:

After some recent game, Epignosis stated that he doesn't care for tied lynches being randomized and planned to attack it a different way. In our game, Kung Lao either wasn't present fast enough to call the tie or is just dead, and Epi/niju elected to "decide" a tied lynch (suggesting at least one extra vote on the Simon wagon) with a double lynch.

Just when you think you can have nice things, you can't have nice things.

Jack's going to have a field day with this one.

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:18 pm I see, this only works if you're a wino.

It helps to have already earned some credibility in a game first.

Wait for it...