Mortal Kombat Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Kylemii]

Jay came in after the Day 4 lynch and said you and lap are civilians. I don't believe it, or anything he says at this point. I think that was a bold misdirect from him.

Long Con is mafia because I said he isn't?

The power I wield.

I look at your alignment claim.

I look at the possible roles you could be based on that claim.

I look at your in-thread actions after said claim.

I don't understand how anyone would trust or listen to you after that.

I would like to go ahead and point out that each of these 4 things are exactly true about you as well, the main difference being that Jay started suspecting you of having baddie motives about 2 phases earlier than you did for him.

[Kylemii]

I look at your in-thread actions after said claim.

can I ask you for an elaboration on this, actually? which of jay's actions do you view as being most notably anti-town

[Marmot]

Jay came in after the Day 4 lynch and said you and lap are civilians. I don't believe it, or anything he says at this point. I think that was a bold misdirect from him.

Long Con is mafia because I said he isn't?

The power I wield.

I look at your alignment claim.

I look at the possible roles you could be based on that claim.

I look at your in-thread actions after said claim.

I don't understand how anyone would trust or listen to you after that.

I would like to go ahead and point out that each of these 4 things are exactly true about you as well, the main difference being that Jay started suspecting you of having baddie motives about 2 phases earlier than you did for him.

Sure.

Except it was entirely consistent. He read me as civilian as recently as Night 4.

But when Day 6 rolled around, the only thing he's interested in is lynching me today. I asked him who he'd vote for if he wasn't voting for me, and he said that nova and Wilgy are uninspiring cases he'd go to next.

Jay has an agenda, that much should be clear.

[Marmot]

Oops. That should be wasn't entirely consistent.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Marmot can't decide whether he wants to self-vote. He just danced between the two wagons, I saw it.

[Marmot]

Marmot can't decide whether he wants to self-vote. He just danced between the two wagons, I saw it.

If you'd asked me earlier, I'd tell I'd definitely be self-voting and fuck this game.

[Marmot]

I'm trying to figure out how the ordering of votes works on these polls, since it's not chronological.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Marmot can't decide whether he wants to self-vote. He just danced between the two wagons, I saw it.

If you'd asked me earlier, I'd tell I'd definitely be self-voting and fuck this game.

Yes, you'd love to mislynch yourself when it's plausible it'd lose the game or at least bring up a dire LyLo.

I'm bored of this discussion though. Other folks can read it and decide how they feel.

[Marmot]

Yes, you'd love to mislynch yourself when it's plausible it'd lose the game or at least bring up a dire LyLo.

No. I thought you were being an ass earlier in the day phase, to the point where I didn't want to play anymore.

[Kylemii]

Sure.

Except it was entirely consistent. He read me as civilian as recently as Night 4.

But when Day 6 rolled around, the only thing he's interested in is lynching me today.

his turn towards suspecting you actually took place as early as the dawn of day 5, it wasn't as sudden as implied here.

Jay has an agenda, that much should be clear.

I've thought about this, the only agenda I could see Jay pursuing, if my assumption (and also your assumption), about him are true, rely on you being one of two particular civ roles, which seems unlikely since being a civ at all is already a contradiction of your own claims.

[Kylemii]

you'd love to mislynch yourself

hey hey?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Yes, you'd love to mislynch yourself when it's plausible it'd lose the game or at least bring up a dire LyLo.

No. I thought you were being an ass earlier in the day phase, to the point where I didn't want to play anymore.

Everything I do here is for Mafia purposes. I’ve no intention of trolling or being an ass.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

you'd love to mislynch yourself

hey hey?

simpsonsthatsthejokememe.jpg

[lapluie]

why self voting because you give up on this game, you'll sabotage the game for the rest, don't vote for yourself if you're not actually bad, if you're bad & give up then ok I get it

[speedchuck]

My current take: Either Jay is actually town and was throwing up a smokescreen earlier, or he's 3P (Kano) and siding with either town or the mafia team. If Jay is 3P, then which would he side with? Town or Mafia?

Given that Jay claimed alignment in the interests of not getting nightkilled (the only reason to claim IMO), I'd say that he's not siding with town. If he WAS siding with town, his claim wouldn't matter, as Jay is a valid hunter and siding with town puts him in danger of the nightkill again.

Or, of course, Jay is mafia and doing some screwy and pointless exercise for WIFOM.

All I can rule out is the possibility that Jay is 3P aligned with town. And given that he has claimed that, it makes me wary of any arguments he makes, even if they look pretty at face value. Doubly especially so when the arguments are targeted at someone as stubborn as Marmot. More on the marmot case in a moment.

TL;DR if Jay is 3P, we should ignore him completely. Also Marmot might be Sonja or Jax in that case.

[speedchuck]

Marmot's case, as I see it, is built off of Marmot (intentionally?) ignoring and questioning Glorfindel's townfirm on LC. (Using the word townfirm feels like an info-drop to me... which is surprisingly not against the rules, unless you're outing a role. Huh. I'll have to keep that in mind.)

Look at the rest of Marmot's posts today. Multiple times JJJ has accused him of something, or brought up an argument, and Marmot stubbornly held to a certain interpretation of that argument. Even when JJJ told him it was wrong.

I don't think he's doing it because it's ideal scum play. That doesn't make any sense.

What if... when Marmot gets frustrated, he grows more stubborn about his interpretation of current events? Just like literally anyone else does in this game? (Except me, I never get frustrated)

[speedchuck]

Even if I'm wary of arguments, I'll go ahead and ask the question:

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention]: What was the motive behind Marmot's play? This was D4, right? The day TSP got lynched? If the running wagons were between LC and TSP, why wouldn't Marmot just vote there? Was he trying to save Lapluie? Nutella? TSP?



Give me a reason that Marmot would intentionally, as scum, be obtuse about Glorf's read/firm and place a vote in a certain place, drawing attention to himself when all four wagons are town (according to Glorf's townfirm thing. He firmed Lapluie, right?).

Tell me why. And if you can't come up with a WHY, then you admit to not understanding Marmot's reason for doing what he did.

Yeah, I've retroactively convinced myself that this is crap. I didn't have that opinion when I started this post, but now that I've looked at the D4 wagons... Screw that noise.

[speedchuck]

Aaaaaand JJJ is off the poll. No pro-town role is this freaking annoying to lynch.

[speedchuck]

I voted Wilgy.

Not super happy with the fact that JJJ suggested Wilgs, but knowing scum-aligned JJJ, I could see him suggesting the lynch of a couple of low posters with one being scum and one town. He's done it before.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll address the rest of that when I'm not sitting in a classroom. For now I just want to muse over the fact speedchuck has suggested I am both a 3rd partier who claimed to avoid night kills (if I am not a civilian, the other possibility he considered), and also that he is willing to vote Wilgy because I might include one scum and one town among my low-poster targets (implying the presence of JJJ teammates). So essentially, I am either a civilian or a 3P or a mafioso.



speedchuck is Marmot's teammate.

[speedchuck]

I'll address the rest of that when I'm not sitting in a classroom. For now I just want to muse over the fact speedchuck has suggested I am both a 3rd partier who claimed to avoid night kills (if I am not a civilian, the other possibility he considered), and also that he is willing to vote Wilgy because I might include one scum and one town among my low-poster targets (implying the presence of JJJ teammates).

I wouldn't put anything past you. I don't like to ignore possibilities. And I've got other reasons to vote Wilgy.

So essentially, I am either a civilian or a 3P or a mafioso.

This is true. Objectively, wonderfully true. Still leaning 3P aligned with mafia though.

speedchuck is Marmot's teammate.

So you've got time to remark a whole bunch of nothingness on my post (literally, your first paragraphs say nothing that I didn't say), and then slander me with a completely unrelated accusation just because I disagree with you. Yeah, that sounds like genuine JJJ town hunting. /s

[speedchuck]

The biggest reason to knock out the theory that JJJ is scum is that he was off the poll on Day 4. At the same time as Simon. I really don't think that the mafia have two of those things to use.

[Long Con]

How would JJJ even slightly suspect that Marmot is Sonya or Jax?

What is JJJ's motivation for this? Isn't the baddie team poised to win with one more mislynch, or something?

[speedchuck]

How would JJJ even slightly suspect that Marmot is Sonya or Jax?

What is JJJ's motivation for this? Isn't the baddie team poised to win with one more mislynch, or something?

If JJJ is the 3P, then he has investigation abilities.

to your second question. What is Jay's motivation to help scum? Survival, because we can't waste a lynch on him. What is his motivation to help town?

For the record, I'm pretty sure that town has bought itself an extra day. Even if nutella died early, we did lynch scum yesterday, and Kylemii is back. AAAAND the bad guy we lynched was the vote-adder, so he counts for 2 on the MYLO/LYLO scale.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Kyle is the undisputed winner of the "understand JJJ" contest.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Given that Jay claimed alignment in the interests of not getting nightkilled (the only reason to claim IMO), I'd say that he's not siding with town. If he WAS siding with town, his claim wouldn't matter, as Jay is a valid hunter and siding with town puts him in danger of the nightkill again.

The potential of being night killed is exactly irrelevant to my claim.

Or, of course, Jay is mafia and doing some screwy and pointless exercise for WIFOM.

You've gathered that much.

When I have people on my team, either civilian or mafioso, they are counting on me to live up to the standard that I have set in many past games. Particularly in the case of a mafia-aligned JJJ, when my teammates open their role cards at the start of a game and see my name included, they know that they are going to get a high-effort and dedicated teammate who will do whatever it takes to help them win the game. That's pressure that I happily shoulder. I don't betray that expectation by screwing around with Wacky WIFOM® or Goofy Gambits®. Hell, I even tried it in Currents (Vompatti role play) and couldn't last more than half a day phase because my teammates needed better play than that.

And when I am on my own with nobody counting on me, that pressure that doesn't exist. The freedom to be screwy is a beautiful thing, and it happens just about as rarely for me as the rarity of "JJJ draws independent role". It's therapeutic for a player like me, because playing The JJJ Way game after game after game can really be exhausting, and it's so much worse when there are two of them happening at once (with all the same people!). Thank goodness I have that freedom this time. The significant exception to this rule of indy conduct would be the Turf Wars prisoner when I felt that I truly owed the civilians something and played for them 100%.

All I can rule out is the possibility that Jay is 3P aligned with town.

All this stuff about "3P aligned with ______" is silly. An independent is aligned with him or herself. Everything beyond that is nuanced and situation-dependent. This is even more true in any game wherein the civilian win condition does not dictate the elimination of the independent. I don't trust that you're thinking this through as thoroughly as you want it to look like you are.

TL;DR if Jay is 3P, we should ignore him completely. Also Marmot might be Sonja or Jax in that case.

That's a fair perspective for those who do not trust me. You do not trust me. You are not ignoring me at all. Indeed, you are making me the central focus of your present "hunt", including after you made this post.

Why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Even if I'm wary of arguments, I'll go ahead and ask the question:

JaggedJimmyJay: What was the motive behind Marmot's play? This was D4, right? The day TSP got lynched? If the running wagons were between LC and TSP, why wouldn't Marmot just vote there? Was he trying to save Lapluie? Nutella? TSP?



Give me a reason that Marmot would intentionally, as scum, be obtuse about Glorf's read/firm and place a vote in a certain place, drawing attention to himself when all four wagons are town (according to Glorf's townfirm thing. He firmed Lapluie, right?).

Tell me why. And if you can't come up with a WHY, then you admit to not understanding Marmot's reason for doing what he did.

When a day phase is literally moments away from its end, the last thing [insert average mafioso] wants to do is change votes to a civilian mislynch in a close tally and end up answering questions for it later. Even if the counterwagons are civilian, nobody knows that until some undefined later point. There doesn't have to be any "save". Any changed vote brings questions, and with a minute to play Marmot elected not to put himself in front of those questions. Instead he opened himself to the questions that absolutely nobody in this game has asked him except me.

At face value, a refusal to heed the words of Glorfindel, the known Never Liar, when he says someone is confirmed town, even without knowing why, is hard to take. Answer your own question -- how does that happen in the head of a civilian who is aware of Glorfindel's moral stance on lies?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So you've got time to remark a whole bunch of nothingness on my post (literally, your first paragraphs say nothing that I didn't say), and then slander me with a completely unrelated accusation just because I disagree with you. Yeah, that sounds like genuine JJJ town hunting. /s

This is just awful. Let me tell you why it's awful in pretty colors.

Let me stop you right there. I told you I was in a classroom. That means that time is restricted. Period. To expect more than an offhand remark from someone who is in a classroom is ridiculous.

I told you I was musing, and then I indicated why the "nothing that you didn't say" was silly. You babbled over my potentially being in all three possible alignments and ended up with no actual conclusion except that I should be ignored (the opposite of what you actually did). Fake.

"Just because I disagree with you"



No fucking way, sir. First of all, you don't "disagree" with me. Your claim is that you don't trust me. You don't believe me. That is not a "disagreement". Second, you just pooh-poohed all over my Marmot case, tried to boogie-man me just like he did, and then voted for the counterwagon -- all while continuing to waffle around what I'm actually doing. That's teammate shit.

This is so insincere. It's so gross at face value. Looking at it is making me retch. I am dry-heaving. I would be puking everywhere again, but I still have no puke left after Mac's massive 75% yellow rainbow from the first day. You want to talk about baseless slander? There you go. You just exemplified it. Your desire is to discredit me, not to counter my arguments with sensible refutations. That's why you look like Marmot's teammate.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Since y'all don't seem to be paying close attention to the numbers, let me help you out:

14 players alive (12 in the poll plus Kyle and I)

4 mafia members likely alive

2 independents likely alive

(8 civilians vs. 4 mafia) and (1 and 1)

In the absence of vote manipulation, there are 4 mafia votes and 10 non-mafia votes. For the sake of preparedness for worst-case scenarios, consider both Dave and Dom as civilians who will never place votes. That leaves 4 mafia votes and 8 non-mafia votes. Then, if you are inclined toward paranoia regarding the two independents, you can perceive the unmanipulated voting power as 4 mafia votes, 6 civilian votes, and 2 variable votes.

Now factor in known manipulations. I believe these roles all can be alive, but they aren't necessarily:

Civilians:
Liu Kang - 2 votes
Jax - vote denial
Smoke - vote denial

Mafia:
Baraka - vote cancellation

Baraka definitely removes a civilian vote. Jax and Smoke disallow someone else from voting, possibly but not definitely mafia members. Liu Kang is a double-vote which appears foolproof, though it's canceled out by Baraka in terms of total voting power. If these roles are alive, the voting power looks like this:

8 civilian votes (8-1+1), 4 mafia votes, 2 variable indy votes, and 2 phantom vote denials affecting any of the three factions.

For the worst-case scenario, consider Dom and Dave civilians. The voting power becomes:

6 civilian votes (6-1+1), 4 mafia votes, 2 variable indy votes, and 2 phantom vote denials affecting any of the three factions.

If Dom and Dave are civilians, this would be a technical LyLo (though I don't think a mislynch would end the game, because even if those two are never voting they still exist in the numbers).

If Dom and/or Dave are not civilians, then the game should be one or two mislynches shy of LyLo, and the mafia voting power is diminished accordingly.

If anyone sees an error or omission in this assembly, lemme know.

[Marmot]

Yes, you'd love to mislynch yourself when it's plausible it'd lose the game or at least bring up a dire LyLo.

No. I thought you were being an ass earlier in the day phase, to the point where I didn't want to play anymore.

Everything I do here is for Mafia purposes. I’ve no intention of trolling or being an ass.

I believe you.

You still come across as rude and smug. That's how I interpreted it.

[Marmot]

How would JJJ even slightly suspect that Marmot is Sonya or Jax?

What is JJJ's motivation for this? Isn't the baddie team poised to win with one more mislynch, or something?

I didn't tell him what my role was.

[speedchuck]

My CONCLUSION, after everything I talked through, was that we should ignore you.

Now, I'm going to proceed to ignore that conclusion.

[Marmot]

Isn't the baddie team poised to win with one more mislynch, or something?

If this is true, how confident do you feel in your vote for DrWilgy?

[speedchuck]

So you've got time to remark a whole bunch of nothingness on my post (literally, your first paragraphs say nothing that I didn't say), and then slander me with a completely unrelated accusation just because I disagree with you. Yeah, that sounds like genuine JJJ town hunting. /s

This is just awful. Let me tell you why it's awful in pretty colors.

Let me stop you right there. I told you I was in a classroom. That means that time is restricted. Period. To expect more than an offhand remark from someone who is in a classroom is ridiculous.

I told you I was musing, and then I indicated why the "nothing that you didn't say" was silly. You babbled over my potentially being in all three possible alignments and ended up with no actual conclusion except that I should be ignored (the opposite of what you actually did). Fake.

"Just because I disagree with you"



No fucking way, sir. First of all, you don't "disagree" with me. Your claim is that you don't trust me. You don't believe me. That is not a "disagreement". Second, you just pooh-poohed all over my Marmot case, tried to boogie-man me just like he did, and then voted for the counterwagon -- all while continuing to waffle around what I'm actually doing. That's teammate shit.

This is so insincere. It's so gross at face value. Looking at it is making me retch. I am dry-heaving. I would be puking everywhere again, but I still have no puke left after Mac's massive 75% yellow rainbow from the first day. You want to talk about baseless slander? There you go. You just exemplified it. Your desire is to discredit me, not to counter my arguments with sensible refutations. That's why you look like Marmot's teammate.

GREEN: Whatever, man. I'm annoyed. I tend to say things when annoyed.

ORANGE: Examining possibilities as they correspond to the marmot case. I don't need a conclusion, all I need is a course of action. Do you expect me to ignore some of the possibilities? Or did you expect me to just assume that you are exactly one role, and take things from there?
I feel like you're calling me fake because I'm not being an idiot. Surely that can't be right.
(If you recall, I did something similar to this post in Vocaroo. About Dunya. Someone, I think it was you, called me out there as well. I was town.)

RED: You clearly have no idea what I'm doing. I looked at the marmot case on its own merit, which I'll be getting to. And NO, I don't trust you. Why the heck should I? You're using weird language and sarcasm quotes to paint everything I did as bad.

CYAN: Your hunting doesn't usually suck, or so I thought. But I'll take some vindictive pleasure in making you puke anyway.

[speedchuck]

Even if I'm wary of arguments, I'll go ahead and ask the question:

JaggedJimmyJay: What was the motive behind Marmot's play? This was D4, right? The day TSP got lynched? If the running wagons were between LC and TSP, why wouldn't Marmot just vote there? Was he trying to save Lapluie? Nutella? TSP?



Give me a reason that Marmot would intentionally, as scum, be obtuse about Glorf's read/firm and place a vote in a certain place, drawing attention to himself when all four wagons are town (according to Glorf's townfirm thing. He firmed Lapluie, right?).

Tell me why. And if you can't come up with a WHY, then you admit to not understanding Marmot's reason for doing what he did.

When a day phase is literally moments away from its end, the last thing [insert average mafioso] wants to do is change votes to a civilian mislynch in a close tally and end up answering questions for it later. Even if the counterwagons are civilian, nobody knows that until some undefined later point. There doesn't have to be any "save". Any changed vote brings questions, and with a minute to play Marmot elected not to put himself in front of those questions. Instead he opened himself to the questions that absolutely nobody in this game has asked him except me.

At face value, a refusal to heed the words of Glorfindel, the known Never Liar, when he says someone is confirmed town, even without knowing why, is hard to take. Answer your own question -- how does that happen in the head of a civilian who is aware of Glorfindel's moral stance on lies?

Yeah. Marmot was definitely trying to avoid answer questions later, or calling attention to his vote. /s
The motive that you've presented makes no sense at all. Marmot's actions undercut his own very motive, in your proposed scenario. By doing what he did, Marmot DID call attention to himself, and DID open himself up to more questions.

I already answered my own question in an earlier post, but I'm pretty sure you twisted it into 'pooh-pooh waffles'.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Yeah. Marmot was definitely trying to avoid answer questions later, or calling attention to his vote. /s
The motive that you've presented makes no sense at all. Marmot's actions undercut his own very motive, in your proposed scenario. By doing what he did, Marmot DID call attention to himself, and DID open himself up to more questions.

Then why is nobody asking him those questions except for the guy who claimed independent?

I already answered my own question in an earlier post, but I'm pretty sure you twisted it into 'pooh-pooh waffles'.

Then answer it again because I have no clue.

[speedchuck]

My reasons for thinking Marmot isn't scum are hidden in these two posts. It's like... a scavenger hunt or something.

Marmot's case, as I see it, is built off of Marmot (intentionally?) ignoring and questioning Glorfindel's townfirm on LC. (Using the word townfirm feels like an info-drop to me... which is surprisingly not against the rules, unless you're outing a role. Huh. I'll have to keep that in mind.)

Look at the rest of Marmot's posts today. Multiple times JJJ has accused him of something, or brought up an argument, and Marmot stubbornly held to a certain interpretation of that argument. Even when JJJ told him it was wrong.

I don't think he's doing it because it's ideal scum play. That doesn't make any sense.

What if... when Marmot gets frustrated, he grows more stubborn about his interpretation of current events? Just like literally anyone else does in this game? (Except me, I never get frustrated)

Even if I'm wary of arguments, I'll go ahead and ask the question:

@JaggedJimmyJay: What was the motive behind Marmot's play? This was D4, right? The day TSP got lynched? If the running wagons were between LC and TSP, why wouldn't Marmot just vote there? Was he trying to save Lapluie? Nutella? TSP?



Give me a reason that Marmot would intentionally, as scum, be obtuse about Glorf's read/firm and place a vote in a certain place, drawing attention to himself when all four wagons are town (according to Glorf's townfirm thing. He firmed Lapluie, right?).

Tell me why. And if you can't come up with a WHY, then you admit to not understanding Marmot's reason for doing what he did.

Yeah, I've retroactively convinced myself that this is crap. I didn't have that opinion when I started this post, but now that I've looked at the D4 wagons... Screw that noise.

[speedchuck]

Yeah. Marmot was definitely trying to avoid answer questions later, or calling attention to his vote. /s
The motive that you've presented makes no sense at all. Marmot's actions undercut his own very motive, in your proposed scenario. By doing what he did, Marmot DID call attention to himself, and DID open himself up to more questions.

Then why is nobody asking him those questions except for the guy who claimed independent?

Dunno. Is anyone questioning the people that were on the TSP wagon either? I'd have to go back. I firmly believe that if Marmot jumped on the TSP wagon, he'd have less suspicion on him than he does now. Or, you know, he could have just not posted.

Second part of the question is interesting, though. What's your game? Forget 'aligned with town or mafia'. Why should I trust that you are genuinely hunting right now?
Be vague if you have to.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

ORANGE: Examining possibilities as they correspond to the marmot case. I don't need a conclusion, all I need is a course of action. Do you expect me to ignore some of the possibilities? Or did you expect me to just assume that you are exactly one role, and take things from there?
I feel like you're calling me fake because I'm not being an idiot. Surely that can't be right.
(If you recall, I did something similar to this post in Vocaroo. About Dunya. Someone, I think it was you, called me out there as well. I was town.)

I don't think you examined the possibilities adequately. I don't think you arrived at a conclusion that suits your examination. I don't think you behaved in accordance with your own conclusion. Thus, fake.

I don't know what you're talking about in Vocaroo. If I'm supposed to care that you were town in this incident though, should you also care that I was town in that game?

RED: You clearly have no idea what I'm doing. I looked at the marmot case on its own merit, which I'll be getting to. And NO, I don't trust you. Why the heck should I? You're using weird language and sarcasm quotes to paint everything I did as bad.

"Weird language"

Okay?

I didn't say you should trust me. I don't give a shit who trusts me. I said that your "disagreement" was irrelevant to my suggestion that you are Marmot's teammate, and the fact that you jumped to that basic, discrediting bullshit instead of critically thinking about what I said was a bad look.

CYAN: Your hunting doesn't usually suck, or so I thought. But I'll take some vindictive pleasure in making you puke anyway.

[Elohcin]

Okay, so I just looked at the poll and now I've gotta read. I see Dr. Wilgy has a lot of votes and I am curious as to why. I haven't heard much about him all game.

[Long Con]

Isn't the baddie team poised to win with one more mislynch, or something?

If this is true, how confident do you feel in your vote for DrWilgy?

Not at all confident.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dunno. Is anyone questioning the people that were on the TSP wagon either? I'd have to go back. I firmly believe that if Marmot jumped on the TSP wagon, he'd have less suspicion on him than he does now. Or, you know, he could have just not posted.

Then what you're saying is that if Marmot jumped on the TSP wagon, he'd have zero suspicion on him right now. Where is the current Marmot suspicion that isn't specifically JJJ-sourced? It doesn't exist. The other two votes on him presently are an off-hand whatever vote from Quin, and a Kyle vote driven by Marmot's dialogue with me.

This alternate universe theory is also meaningless, because it demands that Marmot have a crystal ball in the 1-minute-left-of-EOD scenario wherein he must make a decision. If I switch votes and include myself in this mislynch, in two game cycles I will look better than I otherwise would have. What in the hell is that nonsense?

Second part of the question is interesting, though. What's your game? Forget 'aligned with town or mafia'. Why should I trust that you are genuinely hunting right now?
Be vague if you have to.

I've tried to explain that in the clearest terms that I can with respect to the rules and spirit of this game. Refer to Kyle if you don't get it. He's the only one who has come close.

[speedchuck]

ORANGE: Examining possibilities as they correspond to the marmot case. I don't need a conclusion, all I need is a course of action. Do you expect me to ignore some of the possibilities? Or did you expect me to just assume that you are exactly one role, and take things from there?
I feel like you're calling me fake because I'm not being an idiot. Surely that can't be right.
(If you recall, I did something similar to this post in Vocaroo. About Dunya. Someone, I think it was you, called me out there as well. I was town.)

I don't think you examined the possibilities adequately. I don't think you arrived at a conclusion that suits your examination. I don't think you behaved in accordance with your own conclusion. Thus, fake.

I don't know what you're talking about in Vocaroo. If I'm supposed to care that you were town in this incident though, should you also care that I was town in that game?

My conclusion is that you're likely third party. Everything you've done and said since your claim points to that, other than you trying really, really hard to convince everyone that marmot is bad. How should I reconcile that, exactly?

I could link it, I guess. I'd care that you were town that game, but you've claimed not to be town this game. I don't see how you being town that game matters.

linki: [mention]Kylemii[/mention], what is JJJ doing? I looked at your posts and I don't get it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Look at the rest of Marmot's posts today. Multiple times JJJ has accused him of something, or brought up an argument, and Marmot stubbornly held to a certain interpretation of that argument. Even when JJJ told him it was wrong.

I don't think he's doing it because it's ideal scum play. That doesn't make any sense.

If all or even most scum play was "ideal", town would never win games. Instead of cramming the argument of imperfection into the dialogue, perhaps you should consider why a mafioso would behave that way. It really shouldn't be hard to think it up.

[lapluie]

Okay, so I just looked at the poll and now I've gotta read. I see Dr. Wilgy has a lot of votes and I am curious as to why. I haven't heard much about him all game.

not sure why all else, I saw jack put him red on his list so I figured I'd trust jack since he was right about simon.

[speedchuck]

Dunno. Is anyone questioning the people that were on the TSP wagon either? I'd have to go back. I firmly believe that if Marmot jumped on the TSP wagon, he'd have less suspicion on him than he does now. Or, you know, he could have just not posted.

Then what you're saying is that if Marmot jumped on the TSP wagon, he'd have zero suspicion on him right now. Where is the current Marmot suspicion that isn't specifically JJJ-sourced? It doesn't exist. The other two votes on him presently are an off-hand whatever vote from Quin, and a Kyle vote driven by Marmot's dialogue with me.

This alternate universe theory is also meaningless, because it demands that Marmot have a crystal ball in the 1-minute-left-of-EOD scenario wherein he must make a decision. If I switch votes and include myself in this mislynch, in two game cycles I will look better than I otherwise would have. What in the hell is that nonsense?

There are very few people in this game with zero suspicion on them. You're overstating my argument, then arguing against that. What is that, straw man? I don't know the term for it.
And for that matter, there are only two wagons that matter right now. Wilgy, which was me-and-Jack sourced, and Marmot, which was you-sourced. That doesn't mean that nobody else is suspicious. It just means that nobody else is doing anything.

Fair point about the crystal ball though, actually. EOD play is often frantic and less than ideal.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy could be mafia. I don't know that one could compile a really compelling case, but that's the nature of Wilgy playing the way he plays. He'll never be left out of a POE pool, but he'll also never look extremely suspicious. In this game the best I can offer on the Wilgy front is that his earliest suspicion of Sloonei looked fake, and he didn't do anything with how people responded to that so I can't award points for reactionary faking. His present handling of Jack could be called similar. I can understand tinfoiling on Jack right now, but I have no idea why Wilgy is suspicious of him. I had no idea why he suspected Sloonei.

There's also some WIFOM potential in pretending to suspect widely-town-read Sloonei throughout Day 1 and then immediately killing him on Night 1. Wilgy is a WIFOM monster after all.

It's a whatever case. I have no reason to give him civilian credit.

[speedchuck]

. . . I'd be more interested in lynching Nova right now than Wilgy.

[lapluie]

. . . I'd be more interested in lynching Nova right now than Wilgy.

tell me more

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I feel pretty much the same way about NVN, minus the WIFOM portion.