The Syndicate

I think a ratio of about 3.6:1 civilian:mafia (29 civilians and 8 mafia) would be appropriate pending the specifics of the roles. If the game introduces deliberately confusing mechanics, I would lean possible biases toward a town-favored orientation.

Depends upon the style of the game. It could be anywhere from like 24-32 (fewer for a more role-heavy game with legal claiming, more for a role-light game or one with no claiming).

Heist matrices updates:



Role index:

[mention]Dragon D. Luffy[/mention]

Here's the matrix MP is using currently (the same one I helped construct):


Then 15 players:

Futurama Mafia

I’ll see if I can fix the images soon, thanks for the heads up.

Golden wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:17 pm Beginning to think about the possibility of a fully non-vanilla matrix

Have fun!

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:06 pm Also JOAT is cop/doctor/vig/RB?

I believe our intent was to adapt its abilities given the other roles in play. It was typically 1-shot X, 1-shot Y, 1-shot Z (3 shots total).

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:06 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:05 pm That 15-player matrix was definitely adapted at some point. It's buried in the PMs between MP and I somewhere. Setup A is probably overpowered for the civilians, for example.

We could have a Matrix Thread in the Lounge storing all of those, imo. With balance discussions and whatnot.

By all means. Honestly MP and I threw it all together in a bit of a rush, so there are probably further tweaks that could be made. I know at one point I saw something I didn't like (a vigilante alone against formidable mafia numbers or something like that). With more time it could all be sorted.

Matrices can be tough, because fixing one setup can cause the cross-setup to get jacked up. It's a delicate procedure.

That 15-player matrix was definitely adapted at some point. It's buried in the PMs between MP and I somewhere. Setup A is probably overpowered for the civilians, for example.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:00 pm @JaggedJimmyJay what is a sick innocent child? An IC with a deadline to reveal?

An innocent child who dies at the end of the phase of their reveal, generally.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:10 pm Didn't you have one for 15 players?

Yeah, the original matrix was 15 before we decided to generate more for smaller heists. I just added that to the previous spoiler.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:08 am @JaggedJimmyJay where can I find those mafia matrixes you guys use to make games?

Click the spoiler:


I don't believe this is 100% current. As we've noticed little issues we have tweaked the matrices, and all of those tweaks probably aren't reflected here.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:26 amScum note passer

I'd call it a helpful role for the mafia, but not really a "strong" one, depending upon the allowances of the note. The strength increases if the writer is permitted to reveal his/her identity, as that can generate teamwork with the opposing faction in a way that will be more difficult for the civilian to discern. Generally I'd call it a role with positive utility, but weakly so.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:26 amTown or scum soap box/ghost writer (like K2 with the later not having to be in “this is a letter from K2” form) when the power isn’t stated to be for sure a townie by the host

The soap box can be strong in an open setup given that there are ways for that player to confirm him/herself just using specific words or sentence structure that people will recognize. In those cases it's a weaker version of an innocent child. In a closed setup the utility is diminished a bit without the capacity for confirmation.

It appears the distinction between the soap box and ghost writer is really just open setup and closed setup respectively.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:26 amTown Freddy (Kruger, vig who only targets nonposters, essentially letting the town decide between replacement and modkill)

This is positive utility, with the truth of its strength reliant upon the number of inactives in a game -- and in that regard it kind of balances itself (since a game with more inactives/more vig targets is already inherently pro-mafia because inactives don't hunt). It's weaker than a standard vig, but only a bit. Standard vigilantes tend to focus on inactives anyway.

I'm not against modkilling though. I modkilled a civilian at LyLo once.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:43 am Easy.

Modkill the inactive civ.

The civilian can be active the entire game and then have an Internet outage for one night phase and end up confirmed.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:44 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:41 pm

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:18 pmthey get revealed.

The whole team, or the player doing the guessing?

The player.

It's an interesting dynamic. I struggle to gauge its balance validity without seeing it through a few times at least. The credit hunt game you linked made it appear as though the civilians weren't surprised when the avalanche fell upon them to end the game, suggesting perhaps many of them role claimed late out of desperation and it didn't work out?

As I sit here trying to poke holes in it, I am able to answer my own questions. That's a good sign. Examples of things I have asked myself:

~ "Could the civilians just mass-claim in a 4 vs. 3 or 3 vs. 2 LyLo scenario to out the bad guys and call it a day?" No, because at least one mafia survives another day and soups them all to death.

~ "Could the civilians capitalize in a 3 vs. 1 or 2 vs. 1 LyLo scenario with mass claims?" Theoretically yes, but a prepared mafioso will be prepared to claim a living civilian role and leave the game in a claim-counterclaim deadlock. That does however reduce the suspect pool from three to two overall, because the third individual will be confirmed civilian.

~ "Is there sufficient incentive to prevent sub-mass role claiming?" For stronger roles, yes. Only weaker roles will be eager to claim, particularly under duress. This might rob the mafia team of mislynch targets though, and only provide them with unwanted soup kill targets.

If I have a concern, it's that this mechanic might invite claim behavior which ends up dictating who the mafia team has to kill to survive. Without that free agency, they are handicapped.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:18 pmthey get revealed.

The whole team, or the player doing the guessing?

I think a "dead red" type compromise could be agreeable wherein dead mafia members can remain in BTSC, but they aren't allowed to discuss game-relevant matters. They have to talk about their lunch salad and/or their favorite kind of donuts.

dunya wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:05 pm I hate it when town kills a scum and a mod allows them to stay on and chat and plot. or when mafia kill a townie and then that townie replaces another inactive. THOSE should both be banned forever. We got rid of you for a reason: you shouldn't be impacting the game imo.

I agree with the green in pretty much every scenario. A mafioso who has been lynched or killed has been deprived of the right to make a difference in the game, just like a civilian who has been lynched or killed.

I agree with the red in most scenarios. Ideally it shouldn't happen. I would personally not rejoin a game in which I was night killed -- that is not fair. I understand though that sometimes hosts feel like they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and every option is shitty. So they pick one. I would probably modkill before I resort to this, but I don't fault a host who is not so inclined.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:08 pm Chainkill for every role you successfully match. Until you get it wrong or stop.

And this is done only once, or whenever the witch wants?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:56 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:30 am Strongly pro-civilian

• Open setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)

I want to talk about this because you said, in your Greece sign-up thread, that it doesn't work. I agree that it doesn't work by itself. However...

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:56 am Soup Kill: At night, instead of making the group Night Kill, a witch (mafia) may instead choose to drink Soup. Doing so allows them to Match a player to an Innocent role one at a time until they are incorrect or choose to stop. Each correctly Matched player dies.

A successful Match will only give the 'so and so died' message. On an incorrect match, the message is 'Xanthippe the Witch attempted to Soupkill Yolanda the [incorrect role], but failed', but if no players have been killed that night with Soup, the identity of the Witch is not revealed - 'A Witch attempted to Soupkill Amelia the [incorrect role], but failed'.

This is the counter. This is possibly my favorite mechanic in any mafia game ever, this and things like it. I've played 4 games with the 'soupkill' mechanic, and not only does it allow for awesome multi-kills, but it provides options for claiming should the players think it worth it and natural consequences for when it wasn't worth it.

I've got a game with this mechanic lined up as a side-mission, but it'd be really cool to see stuff more like it. From a balance perspective, what do you think of it?

To ensure I follow properly -- in this scenario the witch would potentially be able to kill more than one civilian in one night phase via this matching method. True or no?

Golden wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:58 pmstrategic non-use of abilities.

I don't care for this either, or deliberately skipped night kills.

One of my least favorite dynamics is when a civilian is inactive and only one mafioso is still alive. The mafioso is forced to either skip the kill or kill the inactive player to prevent confirming him or her as a civilian. That should never happen -- the civilians shouldn't benefit from one of their own failing to play the game. In situations like that, a randomized kill mechanic eliminates all these problems.

S~V~S wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:45 pm I also like what the hosts did in the current GOC; send your PM or your power will be randomized. That is an interesting counter to inactivity.

That's a favorite of mine too, especially for the night kill.

Submit something, or the kill is randomized to anyone -- including your own team.

I just remembered to add another item too:

• A rule which allows mafia members to submit actions on behalf of their teammates

I have placed this in the "moderately pro-mafia" category, though it could also probably fit in the "slightly pro-mafia" category. I think this is a significant allowance for a mafia team in that it allows them to forego any team member who is inactive -- a luxury which a civilian faction simply cannot enjoy when its members are inactive. The lack of a viable counter can be very beneficial to the bad guys.

S~V~S wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:18 pm Do you think pro civilian is desirable, as opposed to neutral? You don't have a neutral set up, and I think a game biased towards any faction is not balanced.

I actually had a baseline "null advantage" setup at first but removed it to avoid confusion. It looked like this:

~ 10 civilians (9 vanilla and 1 cop with pregame peek) vs. 3 mafia (all vanilla)
~ Thread locked at night
~ Mafia BTSC locked during day
~ Role claiming and dumping legal
~ Plurality voting
- A few more wrinkles, etc...

That's the most balanced setup I know of, and it has played out that way in multiple websites over numerous trials in my experience (and it bears out statistically on the 2+2 forum where it is very often employed). This sort of served as a foundation by which I decided on a direction of advantage for each mechanic or role stemming from this point.

Even this this can skew pro-civilian though in a place like this where the mafia members may not have a lot of experience with fake role claiming (granted, the civilians don't either -- see Currents Mafia).

I think a truly "neutral" setup is impossible, but Golden is essentially right. The idea here is to get as close as one reasonably can by mixing wrinkles which benefit each side comparably.

I also think there are scenarios where the rest of a setup dictates the strength of a role.

In this setup:

1) 9 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian cop VS. 3 vanilla mafia
2) 9 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian watcher VS. 3 vanilla mafia

I believe the first option is absolutely better for the civilian faction. It isn't even close in that circumstance, IMO.

However, if we look at this one:

1) 5 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian cop, 1 civilian tracker, 1 civilian doctor, 1 civilian vigilante, 1 civilian roleblocker VS. 1 mafia strongman, 1 mafia ninja, 1 mafia bus driver
2) 5 vanilla civilians, 1 civilian watcher, 1 civilian tracker, 1 civilian doctor, 1 civilian vigilante, 1 civilian roleblocker VS. 1 mafia strongman, 1 mafia ninja, 1 mafia bus driver

The disparity is less clear. I think I still would call #1 stronger overall, but without the same degree of obviousness.

In the end I can understand your perspective. When I assembled this balance worksheet, I thought long over where "watcher" should be placed. I decided it's closer in strength to the likes of a jailkeeper (which I might call the third-most powerful commonplace civilian role) than to a cop. Watcher is the strongest of the "strong" classified roles though, and if someone wanted to place it in the same category as a cop I wouldn't freak out.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:36 am But on the first, aren't cops usually not going to flip based on common Syndicate rules?

I think there are a couple reasons why this concern may apply less than you'd expect, at least in this specific environment:

1) Fully janitored night kills are more common here than elsewhere yes, but they are less "common" than they once were. When heists are incorporated into the dialogue, and some of the more recent jobs/side missions too, that rule hasn't been as constant as it once was.

2) In a game where role claiming is prohibited, a cop is inherently more likely to be lynched than he or she would be in a game with legal claims. The most common route by which a cop avoids being mislynched is to claim cop. When that is not an option, errant or opportunistic suspicions are more difficult to evade.

Also consider that watcher-borne information is subject to the same concerns (or a tracker -- see TSP re: nutella in MK -- or other investigative roles of this nature). If it cannot be conclusively revealed, civilians are going to have to make educated guesses and/or dig into the legacies.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:57 am

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:15 am And while I agree that legacies aren’t always followed when they should be, that doesn’t apply to cops. People follow those clues, because they’re obvious and critical. There’s little or no need for interpretation.

I mean, MK just happened. It was very clear that I was either a cop or lie detector. I don't remember anyone following up on my reads to try to figure out my targets.

I think if you’d flipped fully we’d have seen more on that front. Some people need total confirmation.

There’s also the bit where later in the game, the active living players were nearly all mafia or independent.

And while I agree that legacies aren’t always followed when they should be, that doesn’t apply to cops. People follow those clues, because they’re obvious and critical. There’s little or no need for interpretation.

I think a watcher is definitely stronger than a tracker, and I might call it the second-strongest of the basic/commonplace civilian roles.

Behind the cop.

Every cop ID is precious. When I am a cop, IDing mafia isn’t even my objective. It’s sorting the players who are likely to survive the longest into either alignment. I literally don’t care what the result is other than how it shapes process of elimination.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:19 pm What is a mountainous setup?

All players on both sides are vanilla.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:19 pmHow does revealing something after the game ends affect balance?

This is something Golden mentioned -- the notion that if a mafia BTSC is going to be revealed after a game that it might hinder the team members from saying certain things that they don't want people to see in the post-game. I'm not sure it's a significant thing but I can see the argument.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:19 pmAlso: "Mafia BTSC during day phase legal" appears in two different categories.

Good call, thanks.

Malfunctioning roles are something that I didn't cover, like the alternative screwy cops. They are probably harmful by default, though a cop with backwards checks can become positive once the malfunction is discovered (all prior checks become objective even if in reverse).

Ricochet wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:58 amaint readin

You read every word. It's okay to admit it.

[mention]Quin[/mention]

I can see your argument for a tree stump being positive, and in some situations it might work out that way. We can recall the 2015 GOC when Rico was essentially a tree stump and ended up setting the post count record for the site -- if the player with the role gives maximum effort, then it can be pro-civilian. Its biggest drawbacks are seen toward endgame when that missing vote and civilian slot become crucial.

I started putting this together a few months ago and then forgot about it as other matters in life took priority. Soon I will condense some of this material into a smaller checklist-styled thing which can hopefully aid prospective hosts who have the desire in the last-minute portions of getting a game started. Credit for the original idea goes to Spacedaisy. Thanks to Epignosis, Golden, and others for providing feedback on this thing behind the scenes.

This worksheet reflects my opinions of how a game is best balanced. I am not the sole authority on Mafia balance. If anyone disagrees with assertions made here, I'd love to talk about it in the thread below. Even better, if you have things you'd like to see added or questions about balance, put them here!

Rules and Mechanics with One Mafia Team *a separate worksheet for multiple mafia teams may come later

Strongly pro-civilian

• Open setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)
• Unlimited BTSC for all players

Moderately pro-civilian

• Semi-open or matrix setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)

Slightly pro-civilian

• Semi-open or matrix setup light in unique roles (if reveals are legal)
• Closed setup heavy in unique roles (if reveals are legal)
• Potentially civilian-friendly independent roles
• Open thread during night phase

Barely pro-civilian

• Plurality voting
• Mafia BTSC made public after a game ends
• Open setup light in unique roles (like an open heist)
• Dead mafia in BTSC illegal
• No double-killing rule for the mafia team

Barely pro-mafia

• Majority/hammer voting (if vote changes are legal)
• Mafia BTSC during day phase legal

Slightly pro-mafia

• Closed setup light in unique roles (like a closed heist)
• Dead mafia in BTSC legal
• Precise roles of night killed players not revealed
• Locked thread during night phase

Moderately pro-mafia

• A rule against role reveals and info-dumping (not an issue in open setups heavy in unique roles, where the rule is necessary)
• A rule which limits vote changes to fewer than 2
• A rule which allows mafia members to submit actions on behalf of their teammates
• Alignments of night killed players not revealed
• Allowing mafia members to submit actions for their teammates

Strongly pro-mafia

• A rule preventing any dead players from winning the game
• A rule preventing any vote changes
• A mechanic preventing any roles from being revealed upon death (lynched or killed)

Role Strength by Faction

Civilian roles

Strongest
• Anything with the capability to cause a resurrection*
• Anything with the capability to cause a recruitment*
• Broad alignment-checking roles (cops)
• Any role with the capability to skip or significantly shorten a night phase

Strong
• Roles which are automatically immune to one night kill (bulletproof)
• Investigative roles which can view who targets a selected player (watcher)
• Civilian pairs or trios (if more than that, it's even stronger) who can participate in BTSC from the beginning of the game (masons)
• Roles which can kill during the night phase (vigilante)
• Roles which combine multiple basic abilities with good utility (jailkeeper)
• Uninhibited protective roles (doctor)
• Lie detection roles

Helpful
• Investigative roles which can view who a selected player targets (tracker)
• Inhibited protective roles (bodyguard)
• Disruptive roles (misdirection roles, blocker, bus driver)
• Any civilian role which can freely change which player is lynched
• Civilian roles with more than the standard voting power (doublevoter, extra vote distributor), this is stronger in an open setup
• Messenger roles which can communicate anonymously with other players or the public thread
• Roles which can see snippets of BTSC content
• Roles which are immune to one lynch (significantly stronger in open setups, weaker and arguably harmful in closed setups)

Harmful
• A role without direct voting control or voting power (tree stump)
• Investigated or revealed improperly (miller)
• Passively can cause mafia benefit (beloved princess)
• Traitor roles within the civilian faction designed to serve the mafia in secret

Mafia roles

Strongest
• Anything with the capability to cause a resurrection*
• Anything with the capability to cause a recruitment*
• Any role which can be revealed to be anything other than itself upon death (seemer, role forger), slightly weaker when role claiming is legal and in an open setup
• Any mafia role which can freely change which player is lynched
• Any mafia role which is immune to even one lynch (weaker than a lynch switch but still very strong)
• Infiltration roles that can corrupt a civilian BTSC group (weaker in an open setup)
• Any role with the capability to skip or significantly shorten a day phase
• Role deactivator (permanent)

Strong
• Any role which can prevent a player's role from being revealed upon death (janitor)
• Any mafia role designed to counter a congruent town role (ninja, strongman, godfather)
• Disruptive roles (misdirection, blocker, bus driver)
• Investigative role which can identify roles of other players (role cop)
• Role stealer
• Silencer

Helpful
• Mafia roles with more than the standard voting power (double voter, extra vote distributor), this is weaker in an open setup and significantly stronger in a closed setup
• Cursing roles

Harmful
• Mafia member who is excluded from BTSC and/or unknown to teammates

How many players on each side?

NOTE: The numbers pictured below are intended to serve as a basic guideline. These assume a game is already balanced in other areas such as mechanics and role strength. These numbers may need to be adjusted to account for whatever unique balance-impacting elements have been incorporated into a game's makeup.

EDIT: needs revisions


Other significant balance issues:

• *A resurrection mechanic or role is a gigantic benefit to whichever faction possesses it. If this is to be included in any capacity, a strong counter-balance should be incorporated. If the resurrection is not guaranteed to affect a specific faction, it can still throw the balance of a game a great deal – consider weighting the effect with a negative consequence.

• *A recruitment mechanic or role is a gigantic benefit to whichever faction possesses it. If this is to be included in any capacity, a strong counter-balance should be incorporated. If the recruitment is not guaranteed to affect a specific faction, it can still throw the balance of a game a great deal – consider weighting the effect with a negative consequence. If the recruitment favors a mafia team, this can wholly decide who wins the game – it is the biggest possible benefit a mafia team can enjoy. If the recruitment benefits a civilian or independent team, it is a little less potent but still very significant. The only faction for whom recruitment isn’t inherently a huge power is the cult faction – it’s their basic function.