I think Sloonei - FG - TS - Dragomir is a reliable enough town core. I may be too careful when saying Mac wouldn't fit this core, he probably would, but I still feel like being careful for whatever reason. Some of his actions left some questions in my mind that I can't really erase, and his association with leetic and his posturing around the wagon may have a factor in this.
That leaves TH / Epi / Leetic / speedchuck / TSP / LC / Radishes
TH -
Admittedly, this might be a spite suspicion, but I think it's warranted. Having no thoughts of your own on page 22 and making a sheep vote is absolutely horrendous.
I don't like his ts push because it seems to be misinterpreting him, irony being, what's easier than pushing someone for making a suspicion on someone else for discussing mechanics. Feels like a surface read to make and it's kind of skipping the whole gist of the argument for no real reason, it's diminishing it.
I just came back from reading ts' argument with Sloonei because I skipped it at first, and I see nothing that TH is seeing with this post :
Turnip Head wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:52 am
ts account wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:15 am
Dragomir wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:09 am
I could use the same logic against you. You have only played a fraction of the amount of mafia games that exist so you can't truly know that mechanical talk is widely considered a scumtell. It might have been from the games you've played but not the many others have.
So basically, trying to say that mechanical talk is a scumtell is bullshit. It's not a universal opinion. I want you to explain to me what really makes mechanical talk a bad thing.
There exists somewhere a big imaginary book of mafia. When players are good enough, they get a chance to write a chapter of the book. In some footnotes, you will find clear references to mechanical discussion being a scumtell. I do not know what to tell you beyond this. I am not the one who decides what are and aren't considered scumtells, though I do have a few scumtells of my own that I have not seen other players share.
Generally, scum (moreso bad scum than good scum) will struggle to generate content. This is the closest thing you can get to objective in mafia- sort by postcount will almost always win more games than any individual player's reads, it has been tested. As a result of this, scum (moreso bad scum than good scum) will latch onto low-hanging talking points. In mystery games especially, mechanical discussion is inevitable from any alignment, but scum (moreso bad scum than good scum) are happy to engage in this discourse, as it means they don't have to provide fake content.
Happy?
You could argue in a post-modern mafia setting that going after someone for mechanics talk is the new low hanging fruit. I don't think your suspicion of sloonei for this looks particularly genuine. It's an easy suspicion to fake early and you haven't really let it go, like you're afraid what it would look like if you backed down here
And it's really not what Mikey was suspecting sloonei for? Again, the "diminishing important aspects" point. It feels like he didn't even read the on-going thing, just skipped to the end, saw Sloonei look a lot better than Mikey, and gave the read, because it's a safe spot to sit on. I don't like how TH is taking a convoluted suspicion coming from Mikey on Sloonei and describing it in the scummiest way possible, while also misrepresenting his entire push, ergo, he called Mikey out for pushing sloonei, when :
a) Sloonei was the one that pressed Mikey on his early suspicion and the one to have even beat the bush in the hopes of achieving something out of Mikey's early suspicion.
b) Mikey didn't scum read Sloonei in their argument for that reason
Despite this, the following of his ISO is not even like leaning me one way or the other, it's just making me think "What even is his game plan as scum if he is one"? And it makes me question whether he gave a half-assed read as a town here. I guess I liked that he switched his PoV to Sloonei scum instead of mikey, that kind of left me clueless, which probably means he's town?
I might as well do this, in the grand scheme of things, I don't believe that this is a scum slot if leetic is one.
Epi -
Much like the reasoning I initially had on TH to be scum, this is kind of the same, he also scum reads ts for "inflating his post count" which seems like probably one of the laziest reads I could've ever seen. I don't believe that a town would actually believe this. Someone's either scum or town for performing an action, if you found it performative, then call it that, not "he's just inflating his post count". It's taking a rather "I could give less of a fuck about what's going on between Sloonei and ts right now" read which feels against the grain with the general feeling of the thread. A lot of people were suspecting one party from the debate, this suspects one of them but for weak reasoning.
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:57 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:52 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:46 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:44 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:34 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:46 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:34 pm
[VOTE:
tsaccount] aubergine
My concerns about ts have not been addressed, but I am now having a harder time reading his utter frustration with me as anything but genuine.
My vote stands. Convince me otherwise.
Why does your vote stand where it stands? Is this a social distancing thing?
I'll make this real simple for you. Ready?
I think ts is
If I were to ask why, would you give me a satisfying answer?
I don't know the answer to that. What would satisfy you?
I've already said I think ts is engaging in bullshit discussion about mechanics and people who talk about mechanics.
ts looks nervous. Like someone who bit off more than he can chew and is trying to make himself out to be the big fish regardless.
*bolded* - already explained
italic - this is both wrong and scummy, it's painting ts as scum for a lot more than Epi was initially comfortable giving reasoning for. i feel like it's a huge twist of what ts looked like at the time.
Overall, this would be a solid scum buddy for leetic. All of his votes are posturing on leetic's counterwagons , and for shit reasons as well. Epi had a town lean on Long Con, asked leetic why he should vote him, leetic said he shouldn't, and then, after voting me and maintaining my peak votes, he posts this :
Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:50 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:45 pm
Turnip Head wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:57 pm
LC playing scummy on purpose is not his civ MO
This is just blatantly not true. It's something I have done many times in the past, mostly due to the "you-die-you-don't-win" rule we used to go by around here... when you have to survive to win, you learn to not look TOO Civvish. I still hold the lessons dear to my heart, because dying sucks either way, and if you want to survive the night, the baddies have to believe you can be lynched.
This is true.
[VOTE:
Long Con] aubergine
There is no reason you should have to explain this to Turnip Head. TH was around during that time.
Long con : 4 votes with this vote at the time. He sits on this for a while, then he switches to...Whom, might you ask?
Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:43 pm
[VOTE:
ted] aubergine
Oh gee I wonder. Why? No reason to ask as the reasoning may prolly be "voted to see the poll" or "wagons".
Then baby yoda starts raging and kicking and looking town and where does Epi land next?
Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:09 pm
[VOTE:
TH] aubergine
Just to keep it even while I slumber.
Wait, is that a 3 votes wagon?
Epi is posturing to have a reason to vote on any of me / th / longcon in order to save leetic. If leetic flips scum, this is the next lynch 10/10 times.
Leetic -
Scum lord
speedchuck -
Tbh his ISO left me uninspired and his last post with the readslist is like "Yeah so we lost ted as a lynching option, I'm gonna put LC at null and keep TH scum as those are two viable wagons"
I get that the last 2 people (except for leetic) are being analysed based on pre-flip. Individually, I really have no idea what speedchuck is, could be anything. He does read more...tense? I guess?
TSP -
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:31 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:45 pm
leetic wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:22 pm
Usually much more has happened by now. This feels weird.
Right now,
[VOTE:
Sloonei] aubergine. He is usually one of the more active people who tries to get stuff going, but right now his only contributions have been setup speculation. I'm not really seeing him trying to get any meaningful discussion going so I have to be suspicious.
I would also say the same about JaggedJimmyJay, but he's Schrödinger's player right now. I'll join you on the Sloonei vote, he has three posts and they're all about an issue that's above his pay grade as a player. In A World Asunder, town Sloonei opened Day 1 with two town reads and a vote on a suspect.
[VOTE:
sloonei] aubergine
This is perhaps worse than the Leetic but it’s heart is in the right place
I actually really liked his LC comment. I kind of feel bad for saying this as it will be exploited by him, but generally, I feel like me and TSP have kind of the same outlook on the game. Our reads are somewhat similar, at least from my PoV, and each time we were both town (or I was scum and he was town but it was multiball). I resonated with it, I think it's actually the correct take. Its heart does feel in the right place. I wholeheartedly agree with that post.
I can also follow through the Drago read, although I think it's taking it a step further. That's fine as I think it's more likely town indicative out of TSP, but I am stating that I don't agree with the read itself, but with TSP's reasoning for calling it out.
I also liked his FG comment, although I think she gave him a reasonable reply back (from what I remember) and it seemed that it didn't shake him at all, I wanna know why.
I think TSP's town actually.
Now, for spew analysis that could go wrong but I don't think it is
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:23 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:22 pm
TonyStarkPrime has twelve posts and and I count only one opinion that is expressed without hedging language.
I’ve been taking the maybes and perhapses out of my emails today. It’s an overall problem.
I think a wolf Epi used this more to shade FG than defend TSP, and if he were a wolf with TSP, I don't think he'd consciously move his cursor on the submit button, because he'd second-guess himself into how bad it would turn out to look.
LC -
I'm already getting tired of this, this is absolutely not a wolf with leetic if leetic is a wolf.
As for the individual read...
Listen, the fucking pointing system, please never do that again if you're town. It's easy to bait scum reads on you (more so done by town!). It's already enough if you go over your reasoning for leaning leetic one way or the other, this just feels artificial and people will most certainly not appeal and/or will be suspicious of how you view one thing , your point is clearly done to emphasize on a scum lean and you give him 0 points for it. I don't think there's any reward in doing it. It makes it very hard for me to get a read on you this way.
Yeah I have no clue, I hope leetic flips wolf so I can call this town.
Master Radishes -
Going to start by saying I retained one Sloonei quote that kind of mirrored my thought on MR, I don't think that he feels scum this game. He doesn't feel like in GoC. It's really hard to describe it as you couldn't resonate to my thoughts anyway and I can't really put them out for you, because I had a whole another perception than the townies in GoC because I was scum.
Liked the Sloonei read.
Hindsight, I remember liking this read that he made on me:
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:16 am
It's early days still, but Ted is popping out to me as someone to ISO. Everytime I read his post I'm thinking along the lines of 'Can a scum make that? ...Sure'.
I'm supposed to be working right now (from home, so it's easy for me to get distracted), but next time I take a break I'll do a proper ISO.
I take it MR is some sort of English teacher or something, as his cases very much revolve around wording and such. His whole case on me went from the premise I was scum, which is why I am suspecting people that are still on me, because :
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:10 am
Okay, here are a couple posts from Ted that pinged me:
Disclaimer: it's early D1 etc etc.
tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:56 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:46 am
@tedxtr what is your read on sloonei?
Yeah I was gonna get to that, I think you're town and I'm trying to wrap my head around the mess.
This is a cop out to talking about the (at the time) ongoing Sloonei-TS debate. 'Trying to wrap my head around the mess' comes across to me as a scum uncertain how to slip into the predominant conversation.
tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:59 am
If ts account is [NSM] Mikey I don't remember him being this jumpy actually.
linki : I liked how you reacted to ts account's push on you, particularly one post somewhere. I guess you handled the callout pretty well, it's maybe something to do with how bad the votes on you were that deceives me into it, but idrc for now, you're sloonei.
(Quote chain that I cut)
A light shading on TS (who I assume is Mikey), followed by a rather qualified reason for TRing Sloonei. Again, just reads as someone who is hesitant to lay down solid reads.
tedxtr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:51 am
I kind of want the Sloonei and ts shit to stop, there's already information to infer stuff from and quite frankly I think they're both town.
For one thing, it had definitely petered out by this point. But mainly, it has the tone of a scum who is trying to appear frustrated, e.g. 'quite frankly' and such phrasing.
The rest of his ISO is uninspiring. Mostly null posts that don't really indicate alignment either way, and nothing that looks townie enough to overrule my suspicions. Some of the other posts that don't sit well with me include a minor
mechanics comments, a seemingly random and unexplained
vote on Leetic ('this feels good for now', really?), and some
weird commentary on a Mac who had barely entered the thread at that point. Even his
entrance posts look a
bit questionable under this light, but admittedly by this point I may be tunneling a bit.
Ted sits at the bottom of my list at the moment. I don't normally vote this early into the game, but hey, sometimes it's fun to switch things up.
[VOTE:
tedextr] aubergine
This is a cop out to talking about the (at the time) ongoing Sloonei-TS debate. 'Trying to wrap my head around the mess' comes across to me as a scum uncertain how to slip into the predominant conversation.
NAI unless you go from the premise a scum probably posted it.
A light shading on TS (who I assume is Mikey), followed by a rather qualified reason for TRing Sloonei. Again, just reads as someone who is hesitant to lay down solid reads.
This point was literally refuted in his next point that he makes, and I found it baffling how "I think ts and sloonei are town" is reflective of a hesitant behaviour, but whatever.
For one thing, it had definitely petered out by this point. But mainly, it has the tone of a scum who is trying to appear frustrated, e.g. 'quite frankly' and such phrasing.
He decided to leave the previous argument in even though he literally commented on the post that refutes his argument, but okay.
I feel like I could've follow through enough with "A lot of his posts seem null", but these particular quotes are struggling to build a case out of thin air. It's perfectly reasonable to think "mate post something townie" but the timing of the casing as well as the reasons themselves when you preach that my posts are pretty null reads kind of desperate, which is why I kept pushing back people when they voted me for your case.
I thought I was going to town read you off this, but I just can't. There's a dark world where you're a town, but that would imply some fucked up reasoning that Occam's razor doesn't back me up on, such as "He wanted to try and catch the boogey man cuz I won GoC and he didn't have the chance to push me, so maybe that's why he wants to bury me early, maybe he's backing up a gut too early" but it's like, come on. You can't possibly go as hard as you did on me based on this.
I can't town lean him.
