The Syndicate

Soneji wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:43 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:37 pm soneji kinda wolf got a funny thing

Is this based on anything more than OMGUS?

Rej wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:39 pm

Spoiler: show

Soneji wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:57 am People posting too much for a d0

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:18 pm I don't see any need to tell nutella what to do. I would rather nutella just kill someone.

It's not telling, just suggesting.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:05 pm Vote Epignosis

(yes, I know it doesn't do anything, I just want to make it clear what my stance is from day to day)


Making a list of who protects who only gives more information to the mafia about who is unprotected. And mafia wins the game immediately if they kill nutella, so it is completely useless to know who failed to protect her the day after we lose the game. The strategy you are proposing would make it trivially easy for the mafia to win just by attacking the operator on the night where a mafia member is scheduled to protect her. And a public list of who protects who would make it easier for the mafia to know who they can safely kill since there isn't enough heals to protect everyone at once.

It is correct for town to keep when and who they are using their protect on secret so mafia doesn't know who is being protected, if the operator is shielded, and how many protects the town has left.

Why are you preemptively thinking you'll be called out for making a vote, even in a game where they don’t officially matter to the lynch?

The primary goal with the protects isn't to be blocking every shot, just those aimed at nutella. The secondary goal with the protects should be to keep the towncore alive.

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:35 am Oh yea i was also thinking of using RNG to determine our protections

like idk the numbers but lets say arbitrarily say 10% , each bunker goes to rand.org or however eas the site, rolls between 1 and 100, if its 1 to 10 they protect nutella, otherwise save their shot. Obv different on even nights and as more of us die but u get the idea. Like, just think of some numbers that will give us good odds, i think its okay to slightly potentially lose the game on the first night if it means bigger chance to win in the end

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:41 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:37 am That’s not what we’re doing lol

feels annoying to disparage my idea without even giving it a chance as if its something silly, and as if luck isnt already involved to a degree in mafia

This plan seems too wolfy to be a wolf, especially with the genuine seeming offense to their idea being dismissed.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:08 am

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:38 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:32 pm

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:19 pm Also, I'm a bunker and I'm always going to be defending nutella. Don't waste your defense on me.

That should say "Don't waste your defense on nutella."

On the multikill nights more people need to protect me though right?

I only vaguely understand the setup....

and if Epi's an alien...

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:11 am

Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:48 pm

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:44 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:38 pm

On the multikill nights more people need to protect me though right?

I only vaguely understand the setup....

2 people. You'll be fine. I promise. Epi and dun got ur back gurl

This is over is an alien laser shoots nutella. That's it.

Bunkers have limited protections. After I'm spent, someone else will need to carry on in my stead (or if I get killed).

This is about setting up a network of protections so that it's clear who failed and is therefore mafia.

regardless, I think this is town

Sow doubt on Epi, then swiftly call him town anyways:hmm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:13 am

dunya wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 pm We publicly make a list of who protects who. When someone dies we know who lied

okay, but I'm not going through with this unless there are at least 2 people defending Nutella and possibly 3

@linki oh yeah and bunker protects are limited. It might be best to save them until endgame and just force the poe to protect Nutella each day

The PoE are almost always going to be the ones you least want protecting the Laser.

Dragomir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:15 am All this strategy talk is hurting my brain. I'm merely glancing at these posts right now.

Drago got replaced so not expecting Mac to answer for this, but yeah trying to act lost here when everyone else is doing fine with mechanics talk, and offering up nothing else besides is a bad look.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:16 am

Dragomir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:15 am All this strategy talk is hurting my brain. I'm merely glancing at these posts right now.

Then ignore mechanics, project town and find scum. We’ll take care of the mechanics.

Good look from Nanook to push Drago into being productive.

Rej wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:27 am Drago doesnt like Spacemovies = bad

Dunya, Alison and Tutu are town GTH, nice energy.
Not excluding the possibility that a wolf is coordinating the mechtalk with others.

Tho nothing else pinged me for now. I am at work, will be properly active later on.

Toss out a few townreads, blanket shade the majority of the game thread, then dip. Whoo boy.

It is likely that there was a wolf participating in the mech discussion just on the probability that one was around to post and that it was the main conversation point, but pointing this out without giving a specific person/s that come off wolfy with their approach to the discussion is just going to sow discord.

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:34 am

Dragomir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:30 am

dunya wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:24 am I think we should have at least 3 people saving nutella on any given day. The rest can be up to whatever people wanna do and leave it as a mystery for the aliens to misfire. Hunting through nk is hard at this stage if we want to preserve saves. So we can do regular hunting and I think we already have lots of good content to go through.

How do we go about selecting those 3 ppl?

Tony thinks our scummiest 4 should protect her. We coordinate that itt. I understand why, but my scummiest 4 could be the whole maf team gg y'all ;p but yeah, for a day 1 strategy it makes most sense.

I think it works only for a n1 strategy, as the scum team would have to be exactly the bottom #2-5 of the PoE for us to lose there(the very bottom #1 gets blasted by nutella).

protocultures wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:22 am Hello fellow players. First forum game for me, I am a fairly new mafia player but have played on DM a few times and play the occasional voice/text game over discord. I live in GMT timezone so will probably be out of sync with a lot of you. I draft in word and paste into the forum so hopefully the formatting doesn’t go into the toilet. As editing posts is forbidden, I may repost if this turns out to be a problem.

Spoiler: show

The setup is new to me, so I will state a brief understanding of how this works below. If other people have a different view/better understanding, it would be great if people (or the mod) could let me know.

10 bunkers with 4 saves each who don’t know anything other than Nutella is the Laser.

4 aliens who have perfect information.

Odd nights – 1 alien KP.

Even nights – 2 alien KP till 2.

QUESTION – if player x saves themselves, or player y saves player x, and the town laser is shot at player x, does the laser go through the bunker save?

QUESTION – This is a day 0 start, so does laser get to shoot at the end of Day 0? Does it go to Night 0 or Night 1? This is important to work out alien KP and how many saves should be on Nutella.

QUESTION – can aliens no shoot in the night?

I feel like there is a mathematically optimal solution to this game for every night but I am not smart enough to figure it out.

My proposal for Night 0 or Night 1, depending on which it will be is set out below.

We want the minimum number of saves on Nutella but with some math behind it. These saves should be selected and made public by Nutella and all players who are nominated by Nutella to save Nutella should indeed save Nutella with no exceptions. They need to confirm receipt of the message and confirm they will save Nutella, or Nutella needs to re-nominate someone who has seen their request. This should be entirely elected by Nutella and not depend on people saying they will save Nutella – ie picking into Dunya/Epignosis without rnging them is bad.

The other players should make their saves or no saves in secret, but claim them at the start of the next day along with reasons. Town should never lie about their saves in the night and I am a firm believer of laser all liars in this setup.
If aliens have 1 night KP, I suggest 3 nominated saves and if aliens have 2 night KP, I suggest 4 nominated saves.
See some napkin math below which might be wrong, but lets see if I can still remember combinatronics.
1 Alien KP – need to ensure we land AT LEAST 1 town save, so this is basically any outcome except 3 aliens in the 3 nominations. This is 1 minus (4/14 x 3/13 x 2/12) = 1 – 24/2184 = 98.9% Laser lives through the night. I can accept a 1.1% loss in first night if the benefit is that we get to not waste additional bunker saves.
2 Alien KP – need to ensure we land AT LEAST 2 town saves. This gets a bit harder so please flame me loudly if there is an error in the math so we can try and fix it before we nominate saves (assuming I can get laser and town to buy into my plan).
With 4 nominations, there are 5 outcomes with the following distribution:

4 aliens: 4/14 x 3/13 x 2/12 x 1/11 = 24/24,024 = 0.1% (we lose first night with no saves on Nutella)

3 aliens, 1 town: 4/14 x 3/13 x 2/12 x 10/11 x 4 combos = 960/24,024 = 4 % (we lose first night with 1 saves on Nutella)

2 aliens, 2 town: 4/14 x 3/13 x 10/12 x 9/11 x 6 combos = 6,480/24,024 = 27% (we land 2 saves on
Nutella)

1 alien, 3 town: 10/14 x 9/13 x 8/12 x 4/11 x 4 combos = 11,520/24,024 = 48% (we land 3 saves on Nutella)

4 town: 10/14 x 9/13 x 8/12 x 7/11 = 5,040 /24,024 = 21% (we land 4 saves on Nutella)

I am okay with 4.1% loss in first night.

My current reads/leanings. Cant necessarily justify them all, because its not always rational or justifiable. Its just how their posts make my gut feel.

Alison – hard town. Thinks Epignosis is alien, and agree re full list of saves being anti town.

Bimbo – no posts.

Carotenoid – light alien read for the short intro. Good to know Mac would agree.

Dragomir – null to light town.

Dyslexicon – null to alien for no solve in 3 posts. “game” doesn’t count and I believe is just to appear non-coaster.

Dunya – started off towny, but then slips into hard alien with the later posts. Implied statement that Carotenoid is town “Can't wait to see your super shiny townies self! ”, and the hard tunnel onto LC at the start of day 0. Might be a meta thing I just have no idea but could also just be distancing. Then claims laser will be fine because Dunya/Epi will be using their save onto the laser. “2 people. You'll be fine. I promise. Epi and dun got ur back gurl”. This would be fine if they were both exactly town, but how does anyone else know they are both town? We don’t. “We publicly make a list of who protects who. When someone dies we know who lied” – this is also super alien. We should mix the saves into public and private so the aliens do not have perfect info on saves. Dunya in later posts moves back into town. My head hurts.

Epignosis – hard alien – it’s a vibe thing, cant explain it.

Long Con – Alien. Cant believe they called themselves a bunkerman instead of a bunker person. Consider myself triggered. Gets slightly town for thinking that having no saves left day 5 onward is bad but not that much. “We have to assume the aliens will try to kill nutella every night. We will non-randomly arrange protects to ensure, and insure, that she has multiple layers of protection each night. We will do this in a way that eliminates the possibility of unfortuitously picking all aliens to protect her.” Seems towny but to eliminate the possibility of picking all aliens, we need to use a LOT of bunker saves every even night. Also thinks aliens will be trying to kill the laser every night. I hard disagree and think aliens will leave the laser alone all game since its way easier to kill all the bunkers and win that way. On a meta read without ever having played with them, I simply don’t believe someone with 13k posts would think the aliens would be trying to kill the laser every night.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME – light town for thinking a protection scheme can/should exist. Does not want rng factors into the saves onto Nutella and prefers a set scheme TBC. The arguments with tutu re “trolling” seems town on town to me.

Nutella – LASER

Protocultures – the towniest town that ever towned in the history of townhood

Rej – thinks Dunya, Alison and Tutuu are town GTH. No idea what GTH means but I kinda like their town circle.

Soneji – null to very very light town for having looked into strategies as could have done it for either alignment.

TonyStarkPrime – Null to alien. The strategy of 4 most scummy players onto Laser is bad since if we get 3+ aliens, we insta lose. I much prefer a random 4 than we pick the 4 scummiest, especially since aliens will then try to look scummy intentionally.

Tutuu - Medium town. Wants to know if laser gets to shoot Day 0. Wants town to mass rng saves onto the laser and thinks its okay to lose a non-zero percentage on first night to increase overall town win percentage by not blowing all the bunker saves the first 4 days. I agree with this concept. Tutu thinks Dunya is light town and LongCon is town. I think its weird that Tutuu reads LongCon as town for subjectively incorrect logic, but it seems genuine.

The effort shown here, and in their many other posts, along with a solid progression on their reads puts proto as very likely town. I think the best look of all is this first post, where I would think an over eager, new to forum mafia wolf, would just think about impressing with their mechanics/math and forget to actually give proper reads but proto went above and beyond.

tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:35 am (ioa information over analysis is what i was looking for)

Doesn't surprise me given him saying he is new to forum mafia.

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:09 am hyijifhinrjdfihbrenjdfhedsi aaaaaaaah multiquote button didn't work bierjnnfierhehuj
*take a deep breathe* it's gonna be okay
anyway

TonyStarkPrime's plan seems to be the best so far, but it's kinda risky to the not-poe-people past n1, if that makes sense. So I propose that we kinda flip it around:

- On odd nights, two top townreads (or like one top townread + 2 midlytownread that can't all be wolves together) protect nutella. And then we could do something like bottom of POE protect the people protecting nutella and all the others only self-protect if they feel the need to.

- On even nights, bottom of POE protect nutella. The rest of the players only self-protect if they feel the need to.

That way, the protection shots are used more horizontally and avoids that town ends up with no shots at the end. Also I feel like unless we specifically coordinate something specific in the thread, bunker shots should only be used on their own slot.

The odd night plan is pretty solid, but the even night is wack. You need to have confidence in there being two town protects in there on even nights. On odd nights needing just one you have more leeway to include the PoE.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:06 pm I also think that nobody except Nutella should be saved, full stop. Including self saves.

How about NO! You crazy Dutch bastard!

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:32 pm ok, misread the OP - I thought each Bunker could only protect once. Apparently they have 4 shots. Still not enough to waste them on a mass protect of every player in the game.

Misread the OP versus misread role PM:hmm


Coming out of d0 roughly where I'm at :

Good

proto
tutuu
Dunya

Still deciding

Nanook
Long Con
Carot
Dizzy
Bimbo(don't think they posted?)

Bad

Epi
TSP
Alison
Rej
Drago/Mac


As for the strat I think is best : I'm good with the bottom four PoE strat for n1 only, otherwise think top 3 towncore should protect nutella on odd nights, top 4 towncore on even nights. Could mix in some of the middle of the pack to preserve some of the top towncores protects, best to adjust that as we go. On that first night, the middling PoE should use their protects on the towncore. On subsequent nights the bottom of the PoE should be protecting the towncore, with probably a double up on the very top of the towncore. Force aliens to shoot into bottom or middling Poe, or have to use two kills on even nights to kill one towncore and not even the best SPK they could get.

For simplicities sake, will lay out the first three nights :

N1 : Bottom four of the PoE assigned to protect nutella, while the next three lowest PoE protect the top 3 towncore.

N2 : Top three towncore+one middling PoE protect nutella, while the bottom three to four in the PoE protect the top 3 towncore. If four double up on the very top towncore SPK.

N3 : Top two towncore+one middling PoE protect nutella, bottom three PoE protects top three towncore.

With this we can shuffle enough to have top towncore with protects left up until late. It's a small game, so I think people are overestimating how conservative we need to be with protects. By the end of n4, there can be up to 10 deaths if the aliens succeed on both their double kills. Then n5 being an odd night needs only one towncore with a protect left alive to secure nutella's safety.


Now onto d1.

phew this is some wishy washy stuff, you partially have summarizes then try to reason your own opinion, you have a hard time to fit in
that PoE looks good if you flip it by 180 degree and keep Mac at the bottom

talk with me about Epi

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:24 pm Proto's been towned too easily.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:25 pm Proto is probably town

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:44 pm I'm afraid of making the wrong assumption about Soneji because I pretty much always do tbh, I think I just have never really understood how he works as a player. His one long catchup post didn't feel on a gut level similar to the last time I saw him as town, but I may also be biasing on the low total number of posts and the fact that he only really has late-catch-up stuff and I have trouble reading that over more actual interactions.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 pm I see via quick scan I'm on Soneji's shit list too.

Can anybody provide any reason why I'm Alien?

Besides "vibes?"