[END] Literal WWerecreatures Invade Syndicate Zoo: An SDN Crossover Game

[MacDougall]

@NateTheLesser I would like to know how you feel abouts slots other than Dennis, particularly the likes of Falcon, Marmot, Creature and Mightyrunner7.

I'll be back later, I expect receipts.

[DrWilgy]

Votecount as of end of day 1

Scotty 8 - (Marmot, dyachei/lawpy, mightyrunner7, SportPonies, Neon, Creature, Sloonei, potentialsheltervet)
Creature 5 - (Mayo the Mayo, Kate, S~V~S, falcon45ca, DrWilgy)
Dennis 3 - (Animal Midwife, Scotty, NateTheLesser)
SportPonies 3 - (Seanzie, miranda920, pyxxy)
Falcon45ca 2 - (Zenge, santygrass)
pyxxy 1 - (genny)
Marmot 1 - (Dennis)

Did not vote 1 - (SARdoghandler)

Notes:

The mafia shooting Animal Midwife on night 1 after Scotty goes over, quite blatantly spews the Dennis wagon. Almost too blatantly. I am very confident there is a strong difference check between Dennis and NateTheLesser at this time.

I personally view Creature as a probable hit. He is not his towny self and has no enthusiasm. He keeps talking about his lack of energy/engagement which I have seen him do as mafia because he genuinely does not enjoy wolfing. I think Creature does need to be resolved to help town make heads or tails of the gamestate. I also don't trust Marmot at all and observed Marmot defend Creature during day 1 in a really questionable way. His reasons for ending up voting Scotty felt like he was trying to reach for justifications to be voting town, if Creature was town he wouldn't need to make said justifications.

Obviously if Creature and Dennis are both mafia, the Scotty wagon is very likely to contain multiple mafia. I'd be particularly interested in those who are more familiar with Scotty coming under fire, especially because after reading his ISO he felt like very basic Scotty, who is an A++ town player especially mid to late game. I would expect the likes of Marmot, Neon and Sloonei to be disinclined from killing Scotty day 1 over Creature when comparing their two isos.

@Sloonei, @Neon, @Marmot why did you end up voting out Scotty over Creature?

Oh shit, Good job, I like this and was about to review here.

Quick mention of something I noticed. There's likely one in Seanzie/Miranda920 as well.

Effectively we are looking at at least 1 in Dennis/Nate, at least 1 in Seanzie/Miranda920, and lastly at least 1 in the Falcon/Zenge/Santy.
Is the 'Scotty wagon is very likely to contain multiple mafia' impacted by the multiple factions in your read at all?

No I am not factoring in multiple factions, and I have Falcon more likely different to Mightyrunner7 than Zedge. Zedge is just town, and in the event Falcon is town I don't think that changes it, if anything it makes it more likely because wolves rarely go hard in the paint to kill a random town the way Zedge would be doing. Why do you think Falcon and Santy contains one?

Explain the Seanzie/Miranda analysis?

The SportPonies wagon seems absolutely cursed. Also not like wolves NEEDED to be on Scotty as he had such a lead.

Falcon/Zenge/Santy is lesser wagonomics that I didn't see addressed in your initial.

I also VASTLY TR Falcon. I just skimmed him once again to validate my read from prior and I don't think there's any evidence of not T Falcon here. My hesitation with your read of 1 in Falcon/Zenge/PSV/MightyRunner is that that's 3 SDNers on 1 Syndicater. I don't think it's too horribly hard to see a situation where those not accustomed to Falcon misyeet in there. This also affects the lesser wagonomics as described in Falcon/Zenge/Santy that I need to unravel.

[potentialsheltervet]

Effectively we are looking at at least 1 in Dennis/Nate, at least 1 in Seanzie/Miranda920, and lastly at least 1 in the Falcon/Zenge/Santy.

I have Zenge all but locked town, Santy as a town lean, and you have Falcon locked town. Hmm.
I'm confused where you deduced at least 1 in Seanzie/miranda?

[DrWilgy]

Effectively we are looking at at least 1 in Dennis/Nate, at least 1 in Seanzie/Miranda920, and lastly at least 1 in the Falcon/Zenge/Santy.

I have Zenge all but locked town, Santy as a town lean, and you have Falcon locked town. Hmm.
I'm confused where you deduced at least 1 in Seanzie/miranda?

See directly above

[potentialsheltervet]

@Zenge @potentialsheltervet @mightyrunner7, I'll try to get through your ISO's tonight, but it may assist me if you would iterate as to why exactly you are voting Falcon?

Sometimes Zenge gets into a tunnel that seems weird to outside eyes, but winds up being accurate. I'm not overly confident on other slots and so I'm deciding to ride out where the road takes me with the Falcon vote.
As well, I spent a while poking around at Syndicate players trying to see what the consensus was on whether Falcon was behaving normally or not and got no consensus. I also unfortunately can't put much stock in you confidently declaring he's town if you just misread him.
However I'm finding the Creature stuff compelling, though I'd prefer not to vote there unless/until he comes around to defend himself.

[MacDougall]

Votecount as of end of day 1

Scotty 8 - (Marmot, dyachei/lawpy, mightyrunner7, SportPonies, Neon, Creature, Sloonei, potentialsheltervet)
Creature 5 - (Mayo the Mayo, Kate, S~V~S, falcon45ca, DrWilgy)
Dennis 3 - (Animal Midwife, Scotty, NateTheLesser)
SportPonies 3 - (Seanzie, miranda920, pyxxy)
Falcon45ca 2 - (Zenge, santygrass)
pyxxy 1 - (genny)
Marmot 1 - (Dennis)

Did not vote 1 - (SARdoghandler)

Notes:

The mafia shooting Animal Midwife on night 1 after Scotty goes over, quite blatantly spews the Dennis wagon. Almost too blatantly. I am very confident there is a strong difference check between Dennis and NateTheLesser at this time.

I personally view Creature as a probable hit. He is not his towny self and has no enthusiasm. He keeps talking about his lack of energy/engagement which I have seen him do as mafia because he genuinely does not enjoy wolfing. I think Creature does need to be resolved to help town make heads or tails of the gamestate. I also don't trust Marmot at all and observed Marmot defend Creature during day 1 in a really questionable way. His reasons for ending up voting Scotty felt like he was trying to reach for justifications to be voting town, if Creature was town he wouldn't need to make said justifications.

Obviously if Creature and Dennis are both mafia, the Scotty wagon is very likely to contain multiple mafia. I'd be particularly interested in those who are more familiar with Scotty coming under fire, especially because after reading his ISO he felt like very basic Scotty, who is an A++ town player especially mid to late game. I would expect the likes of Marmot, Neon and Sloonei to be disinclined from killing Scotty day 1 over Creature when comparing their two isos.

@Sloonei, @Neon, @Marmot why did you end up voting out Scotty over Creature?

Oh shit, Good job, I like this and was about to review here.

Quick mention of something I noticed. There's likely one in Seanzie/Miranda920 as well.

Effectively we are looking at at least 1 in Dennis/Nate, at least 1 in Seanzie/Miranda920, and lastly at least 1 in the Falcon/Zenge/Santy.
Is the 'Scotty wagon is very likely to contain multiple mafia' impacted by the multiple factions in your read at all?

No I am not factoring in multiple factions, and I have Falcon more likely different to Mightyrunner7 than Zedge. Zedge is just town, and in the event Falcon is town I don't think that changes it, if anything it makes it more likely because wolves rarely go hard in the paint to kill a random town the way Zedge would be doing. Why do you think Falcon and Santy contains one?

Explain the Seanzie/Miranda analysis?

The SportPonies wagon seems absolutely cursed. Also not like wolves NEEDED to be on Scotty as he had such a lead.

Falcon/Zenge/Santy is lesser wagonomics that I didn't see addressed in your initial.

I also VASTLY TR Falcon. I just skimmed him once again to validate my read from prior and I don't think there's any evidence of not T Falcon here. My hesitation with your read of 1 in Falcon/Zenge/PSV/MightyRunner is that that's 3 SDNers on 1 Syndicater. I don't think it's too horribly hard to see a situation where those not accustomed to Falcon misyeet in there. This also affects the lesser wagonomics as described in Falcon/Zenge/Santy that I need to unravel.

The reason I put weight in it is because of the fact that wagon has existed for over 24 hours with no further votes. If that was 3 town, where are the mafia voting him? The most likely reason for the stagnation is that there are already wolf or wolves voting there and other wolves don't want to be seen stacking Falcon this far out from EOD.

[MacDougall]

Effectively we are looking at at least 1 in Dennis/Nate, at least 1 in Seanzie/Miranda920, and lastly at least 1 in the Falcon/Zenge/Santy.

I have Zenge all but locked town, Santy as a town lean, and you have Falcon locked town. Hmm.
I'm confused where you deduced at least 1 in Seanzie/miranda?

Seems like it would be a good time to clarify why you had MR7 in your townreads when you did your SDN reads.

[MacDougall]

[VOTE: Marmot] aubergine

[miranda920]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

[MacDougall]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

[Dennis]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

wait lemme double check

[potentialsheltervet]

Effectively we are looking at at least 1 in Dennis/Nate, at least 1 in Seanzie/Miranda920, and lastly at least 1 in the Falcon/Zenge/Santy.

I have Zenge all but locked town, Santy as a town lean, and you have Falcon locked town. Hmm.
I'm confused where you deduced at least 1 in Seanzie/miranda?

Seems like it would be a good time to clarify why you had MR7 in your townreads when you did your SDN reads.

Because I think he just sounds like himself. As mentioned before, I should not be regarded as a reliable source on him given I didn't want to yeet him either of the times I played with him while he was scumming. He's not a strong town read, more towny side of neutral. And it's hard to further assess when he has the restriction. But someone mentioned him sounding unnatural and imo that is NAI for him. I haven't seen anything that makes him wolfy.
Anyway of the SDNers I think genny/mayo are way more likely to be hits and I'd prefer to go there first.

[potentialsheltervet]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

We have mentors on SDN for incoming new players. SAR was miranda's mentor in her first game. (Hence references to SAR being miranda's mother. The SDN family trees are highly complex and incestuous the more you dive in.)

[MacDougall]

Town lean:
Zenge
SAR
Santy
mighty
Nate

????
Lawpy

Less of a town lean:
Miranda
Mayo
Genny

So when you say less of a town lean, do you mean that they are on the wolfy side of neutral or still town leans?

[Zenge]

@Zenge @potentialsheltervet @mightyrunner7, I'll try to get through your ISO's tonight, but it may assist me if you would iterate as to why exactly you are voting Falcon?

Let me lay this out for you:

It started with falcon pushing me for weak reasoning. This isn’t telling in and of itself, villagers makes mistakes.

But as Falcon starting building a case on me, which I obviously know is not true, Flacon’s reasoning got worse; to the point that they were making things up.

Specifically I said I was looking to see who was doing what I expected wolves to do. Falcon called that a “Wolfy mindset”.

This was a massive slip. Because no. Trying to figure out what wolves will do, and looking to see who does that isn’t Wolf itself, it’s village.

I pressed Falcon on this point. And Falcon immediately tried to change the subject and said they were going to focus on other things.

I pressed Falcon again, and Falcon used an argument to answer the question that simultaneously didn’t answer the question, but tried to shade me for something else.

This is a wolf. A villager doesn’t play this way. I could tell when I was pressing Falcon, he was wriggling. Trying to talk his way out of it. I’ve pressed wolves and I’ve pressed villagers. This is the former.

@Lawpy since you’re just joining in I encourage you to read this and join me here. Pls.

[MacDougall]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

We have mentors on SDN for incoming new players. SAR was miranda's mentor in her first game. (Hence references to SAR being miranda's mother. The SDN family trees are highly complex and incestuous the more you dive in.)

There was a post where Miranda begged SAR to help them with the game and SAR was like "ask and you shall receive my child" then did nothing and Miranda didn't follow up. It felt... performative and wolfy on both sides.

[MacDougall]

@Zenge @potentialsheltervet @mightyrunner7, I'll try to get through your ISO's tonight, but it may assist me if you would iterate as to why exactly you are voting Falcon?

Let me lay this out for you:

It started with falcon pushing me for weak reasoning. This isn’t telling in and of itself, villagers makes mistakes.

But as Falcon starting building a case on me, which I obviously know is not true, Flacon’s reasoning got worse; to the point that they were making things up.

Specifically I said I was looking to see who was doing what I expected wolves to do. Falcon called that a “Wolfy mindset”.

This was a massive slip. Because no. Trying to figure out what wolves will do, and looking to see who does that isn’t Wolf itself, it’s village.

I pressed Falcon on this point. And Falcon immediately tried to change the subject and said they were going to focus on other things.

I pressed Falcon again, and Falcon used an argument to answer the question that simultaneously didn’t answer the question, but tried to shade me for something else.

This is a wolf. A villager doesn’t play this way. I could tell when I was pressing Falcon, he was wriggling. Trying to talk his way out of it. I’ve pressed wolves and I’ve pressed villagers. This is the former.

@Lawpy since you’re just joining in I encourage you to read this and join me here. Pls.

Can you please pull the series of posts that highlight this? It looks quite juicy.

[potentialsheltervet]

Town lean:
Zenge
SAR
Santy
mighty
Nate

????
Lawpy

Less of a town lean:
Miranda
Mayo
Genny

So when you say less of a town lean, do you mean that they are on the wolfy side of neutral or still town leans?

Wolfy side of neutral. Miranda in particular is proving to be a tricky solve for me and if I had to I'd label her a true neutral compared to more literal scum leans in mayo and genny.
I also think genny is easier to solve through direct engagement as opposed to ISOing... and haven't been able to directly engage her this game.

[Zenge]

You’re right. I’m extremely dissatisfied.

I asked you for one thing. One simple thing. Give me your thoughts on the content itself.

Instead you gave another hand wavy answer that simply acknowledges the existence of the content and talk about how it was created on D1.

I wanted you to talk to me about the argument I’m making against Falcon. The specific point about what Falcon said, my rebuttal, and what you agree with or disagree with in that exchange, with specifics.

I still expect an answer here.

I think Falcon said a provocative thing about you and you were provoked. I think he made a mountain out of a molehill first, and you responded by making your out mountain out of your own molehill. Falcon's initial gripe, whether or not we believe it, was that you were not proactive enough in addressing your concerns about the early Miranda votes. Was it fair as an accusation at face value? Not really. But was it an acceptable play for early Day 1 of a crossover mafia game on Mafiathesyndicate.com? Absolutely.

You responded critically and defensively, because it was a bit of a bogus accusation. That is fair. But, in your response, I felt you took some liberties with his words, or at least presented a rather one-sided view of his position (It is not hard to see how falcon could interpret your initial concern as being simply the speed with which the votes occurred). This is reminiscent of how you have responded to me today. But, again, that is fine, because it is Day 1 of a mafia game, and we need to twist some words to get people talking.

Was I swayed by any of the arguments either of you made against one another? No. I was not. If I am to give a read, it's that both of you are town. Falcon, for playing the role of provocateur. You, because your defensive reaction turned into what looks to be a very firmly-held belief that you are onto something. But neither of those are strong reads, which is why I will again stress that I'm more interested in seeing how you respond to other things.

I do not believe there is anything meaningful to be gained by continuing this dialogue.

Get out of here with your calm and reasoning.

Also, intentionally being peacemaker and trying to stop a distracting argument feels town to me.

That argument doesn’t look distracting to me and the peacemaker role is what’s actually making me wary

I’m interested to know who you’re wolfreading, if any, in this exchange

Thank you!!!!!! I’m glad you’re seeing what I’m seeing here

[MacDougall]

Town lean:
Zenge
SAR
Santy
mighty
Nate

????
Lawpy

Less of a town lean:
Miranda
Mayo
Genny

So when you say less of a town lean, do you mean that they are on the wolfy side of neutral or still town leans?

Wolfy side of neutral. Miranda in particular is proving to be a tricky solve for me and if I had to I'd label her a true neutral compared to more literal scum leans in mayo and genny.
I also think genny is easier to solve through direct engagement as opposed to ISOing... and haven't been able to directly engage her this game.

Okay so this readslist is only town side of neutral, true neutral and wolfy side of neutral. So you have no confident reads on any SDNers?

[potentialsheltervet]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

We have mentors on SDN for incoming new players. SAR was miranda's mentor in her first game. (Hence references to SAR being miranda's mother. The SDN family trees are highly complex and incestuous the more you dive in.)

There was a post where Miranda begged SAR to help them with the game and SAR was like "ask and you shall receive my child" then did nothing and Miranda didn't follow up. It felt... performative and wolfy on both sides.

I remember the posts in question. I don't recall miranda asking for help with anything specific and it seemed more coincidence that SAR happened to show up shortly after. I didn't read it as overly wolfy but also they behaved similarly in a recent SDN game where they were both town so I have that meta on them.

[Dennis]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

wait lemme double check

mmph yes I suppose it's passable

You were put on the spot and it was a little weird but you probably did mean it was nai

[potentialsheltervet]

Town lean:
Zenge
SAR
Santy
mighty
Nate

????
Lawpy

Less of a town lean:
Miranda
Mayo
Genny

So when you say less of a town lean, do you mean that they are on the wolfy side of neutral or still town leans?

Wolfy side of neutral. Miranda in particular is proving to be a tricky solve for me and if I had to I'd label her a true neutral compared to more literal scum leans in mayo and genny.
I also think genny is easier to solve through direct engagement as opposed to ISOing... and haven't been able to directly engage her this game.

Okay so this readslist is only town side of neutral, true neutral and wolfy side of neutral. So you have no confident reads on any SDNers?

I'm very confident on Zenge. Everyone else is a lean at this point.
I suppose I should phrase it as people I will and will not vote for at this time. I generally don't make reads lists D2 anyhow. They have to bake at 350 until golden brown.

[potentialsheltervet]

I don't have much of a reason to town read SAR but my heart feels like she's town. I don't get why she's so confident on miranda, though.

[Zenge]

Spoiler: show

This isn’t an answer. What specifically did I say that you felt was an example of my “Twisting his words”?

What is your read on me right now?

Not great. Especially since you refused to answer this question and just asked another question, which was about how I’m reading you.

Villager’s don’t generally care as much about how others are reading them and are usually more willing to answer extremely basic and simple questions.

The reason I ask is because I fail to see the benefit of continuing this dialogue unless you are actively suspicious of me.

I feel as though I have answered you in sufficient detail. I have gone into more detail than I thought necessary. I even addressed your most recent question in the post you were responding to: You painted Falcon as suspicious for not asking you why you disliked the Miranda wagon, when it was not unreasonable to assume that Falcon had assumed your objection was that the votes came too quickly.

You have asked me to respond to a bunch of things, but I am failing to see what value is being gained right now. It feels as though you are hounding me simply as a reflex. So how are you reading me, and why are my answers to your questions so important?

I’m not hounding you as a reflex I’m extremely suspicious of you because your defense of Falcon has been extremely scummy.

Your failure to answer my questions has been extremely scummy. Anyone who actually reads the answers you gave to the questions I’ve asked would agree that like a politician, you’ve answered by saying a lot of words and never actually answering my questions.

So let’s do this. I’m giving you one more opportunity to answer my questions honestly. I’m going to make them as simple as possible.

1. I said “This is what I expect wolves to do. Im looking for people who are doing this.” -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

2. Falcon highlighted my quote discussed in point #1 and said that it was a Wolfy mindset. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

3. I asked Falcon why it was he was claiming that was a “Wolfy mindset”. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

4. Falcon followed that by saying he was done discussing with me, instead of explaining himself. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

5. I pressed Falcon again and asked him AGAIN to answer the question. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

6. Falcon answered by making an unrelated complaint about my not asking people voting for Miranda why they were voting for Miranda. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

I’d like you to answer these point by point. I doubt you will. I expect you’ll continue to obfuscate and give hand wavy answers.

@Lawpy @MacDougall
Here’s where I lay out some point by point facts about what happened, for your reference

[MacDougall]

@Dennis I have directly pinged you a few times. Please read your pings and reply to me.

[MacDougall]

Spoiler: show

This isn’t an answer. What specifically did I say that you felt was an example of my “Twisting his words”?

What is your read on me right now?

Not great. Especially since you refused to answer this question and just asked another question, which was about how I’m reading you.

Villager’s don’t generally care as much about how others are reading them and are usually more willing to answer extremely basic and simple questions.

The reason I ask is because I fail to see the benefit of continuing this dialogue unless you are actively suspicious of me.

I feel as though I have answered you in sufficient detail. I have gone into more detail than I thought necessary. I even addressed your most recent question in the post you were responding to: You painted Falcon as suspicious for not asking you why you disliked the Miranda wagon, when it was not unreasonable to assume that Falcon had assumed your objection was that the votes came too quickly.

You have asked me to respond to a bunch of things, but I am failing to see what value is being gained right now. It feels as though you are hounding me simply as a reflex. So how are you reading me, and why are my answers to your questions so important?

I’m not hounding you as a reflex I’m extremely suspicious of you because your defense of Falcon has been extremely scummy.

Your failure to answer my questions has been extremely scummy. Anyone who actually reads the answers you gave to the questions I’ve asked would agree that like a politician, you’ve answered by saying a lot of words and never actually answering my questions.

So let’s do this. I’m giving you one more opportunity to answer my questions honestly. I’m going to make them as simple as possible.

1. I said “This is what I expect wolves to do. Im looking for people who are doing this.” -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

2. Falcon highlighted my quote discussed in point #1 and said that it was a Wolfy mindset. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

3. I asked Falcon why it was he was claiming that was a “Wolfy mindset”. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

4. Falcon followed that by saying he was done discussing with me, instead of explaining himself. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

5. I pressed Falcon again and asked him AGAIN to answer the question. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

6. Falcon answered by making an unrelated complaint about my not asking people voting for Miranda why they were voting for Miranda. -This is a fact. Do you agree or disagree with that. If you disagree why specifically?

I’d like you to answer these point by point. I doubt you will. I expect you’ll continue to obfuscate and give hand wavy answers.

@Lawpy @MacDougall
Here’s where I lay out some point by point facts about what happened, for your reference

Yeah but I don't really want to read your appraisal I want to read the section of the game this occurred in and make my own mind up about whether you are confbiased or what you are describing is a fair appraisal. Can you please just pull a quote for me that is where the whole thing began if you aren't gonna pull full quotes?

[Lawpy]

And you got super weirdly defensive about it when I asked you a simple, neutral question about your vote. That’s weird, Sportponies.

Are you intentionally pretending you don’t know the definition of defensive?

I asked you why you were voting for Miranda and you freaked out and said I was being weird for daring to ask “why”?

That’s defensive.

Stop twisting my words. I said you’re being weird. Not for asking. You’re just being weird. In general.

When did you say this because I don't think you have

If I unvoted right now it could be a three way tie :heckyeah:

Why are you even voting for Miranda? What’s your endgame here?

I already said I thought her tone was sus. I don’t just snapvote someone I like for funsies unless it’s dubz

Why you bein weird?

First time was here I believe, couple other times afterward

Ah

I was gonna say ponies felt scummy because that post felt like OMGUS but I guess I missed that

(in response to your previous post):

Seanzie is townlean because an interesting pattern I've noticed is that he doesn't say "I'd elim this." nearly as often, or at all, as scum than he does town

One thing that caught my eye was the sudden swooning over mightyrunner? Like sure they looked towny I guess, but there was like 3 to 5 people who all townread them and it felt like there had to be a wolf in there trying to hide amongst the crowd

Interesting point about mighty because i have him in neutrals

Could you refresh me who exactly townread him?

[Dennis]

@Dennis I have directly pinged you a few times. Please read your pings and reply to me.

wait I thought I did I'm on it I guess

[Dennis]

Votecount as at this post

falcon45ca 3 - (mightyrunner7, potentialsheltervet, Zenge)

Creature 2 - (santygrass, falcon45ca)
Dennis 2 - (Neon, NateTheLesser)
NateTheLesser 2 - (Marmot, MacDougall)

Marmot 1 - (sloonei)
santygrass 1 - (creature)
SARdoghandler 1 - (Seanzie)

DrWilgy 0
dyachei/lawpy 0
genny 0
Kate/Mac 0
Mayo the Mayo 0
mightyrunner7 0
miranda920 0
Neon 0
potentialsheltervet 0
Seanzie 0
S~V~S 0
Sloonei 0
Zenge 0

Sleep / No Elimination 0

Not voting (@SARdoghandler, @Dennis, @santygrass, @DrWilgy, @Lawpy, @genny, @Mayo the Mayo, @miranda920, @S~V~S)

Notes: The Falcon wagon quickly got to 3 and has not moved any further. There is probably 1 wolf between the 4 (inclusive of Falcon) based on wagonomics, rarely 0. Zenge and PSV feel quite town just on solving energy, so in my view there is a likely wolf between Falcon and Mightyrunner7.

I am not a fan of the amount of people presently not voting. We need to pressure wolves, so if you are town in there, please start voting. If you don't have any good ideas of who to vote for, start communicating with your top town and just work with them. It's okay to be wrong. It's not okay to not try.

DrWilgy has been representing a "he's an obvious town" read on Falcon since day 1 but seems untroubled by the pressure Falcon is under. I don't like this.

Ping 1 I voted marmy

[miranda920]

But also @miranda920 do you realize that you are calling out people for not voting while... You aren't voting.

I don’t know where I called someone out for not voting? I almost always hold on to my vote unless I’m feeling very certain

[Dennis]

cough cough be ready to be DISAPPOINTED heres the thing sloonei said to do

no seriously though i am terrible at like everything iso related

Spoiler: show

marmot - broke the tie which I don't think is scummy tbh. voted creature, and then said they didn't want creature to go over, but never explained their original creature vote before. overall scummy eod still I would vote here again

dyachei (lawpy) - that point about "why vote dennis over pyxxy" was really towny and the vote following is like. basic progression so towny vote

mightyrunner7 - sheeped dyachei which I am only letting slide with a "im new" pass. i am 90% sure you're new, so it's especially difficult for me to tell if you're just a new townie and followed a towny idea you saw, or a new wolf finding a way to hid on the top wagon. but you remind me of my dad trying to play this game as a newbie, trying to be open to show you're town with your very formal wording, like where you say "for this reason," before voting scotty. i'll give you a pass but i'll be watching.

sportponies - errrrm you're dead silly what are you doing here

neon - bad vote, you never actually explained why. you voted scotty because of a joke he made and while you doing that was hilarious it is also unfortunately rather scummy

creature - i actually cannot be forced to give enough shits to find when creature voted scotty and figure out the votes at that moment so im just gonna assume it was a self pres vote because of how creature seems to have irl nonsense getting in the way

sloonei - your vote felt a lil quick, maybe a lil forced, but then you made that huge scrolling banner and all the other nonsense supporting it. idk man this vote was so incredibly formulaic there is nothing exceptional about it, which i guess itself is towny

psv - i didn't know you voted scotty because you spent such little time talking about scotty. feels kinda bad bcuz no real reasoning

By end of day 1 you were being voted by two now dead town, and NateTheLesser. Nate continues to vote you. If you are town and were being voted by three town, I feel like at least one or two of the wolves would have found their way to be voting you by EOD except for in the scenario where the wolves had to throw every spare vote they could at Scotty to ensure Creature survived. Your perspective if town needs to be that there is always a wolf inside of Nate and Creature. Nod if you understand.

Oh I missed this

[VOTE: natethelesser] aubergine

[Lawpy]

votecount with ~5 hours until EOD

Animal Midwife - 0 votes, Voters: None
Creature - 2 votes, Voters: Mayo the Mayo, falcon45ca
Dennis - 2 votes, Voters: Animal Midwife, Scotty
DrWilgy - 0 votes, Voters: None
dyachei - 0 votes, Voters: None
falcon45ca - 1 votes, Voters: Zenge
genny - 0 votes, Voters: None
Kate - 0 votes, Voters: None
Marmot - 0 votes, Voters: None
Mayo the Mayo - 0 votes, Voters: None
mightyrunner7 - 0 votes, Voters: None
miranda920 - 3 votes, Voters: santygrass, DrWilgy, SportPonies
NateTheLesser - 1 votes, Voters: Creature
Neon - 0 votes, Voters: None
potentialsheltervet - 0 votes, Voters: None
pyxxy - 1 votes, Voters: genny
S~V~S - 0 votes, Voters: None
santygrass - 0 votes, Voters: None
SARdoghandler - 0 votes, Voters: None
Scotty - 2 votes, Voters: Neon, Sloonei
Seanzie - 0 votes, Voters: None
Sloonei - 0 votes, Voters: None
SportPonies - 2 votes, Voters: pyxxy, Seanzie
Zenge - 1 votes, Voters: NateTheLesser

No vote / Unvote - 0 votes, Voters: None
Sleep / No Elimination 0

Not voting atm:
Dennis
dyachei
Kate
Marmot
mightyrunner7
miranda920
potentialsheltervet
S~V~S
SARdoghandler

I think @santygrass linked the screenshot of final D1 votes

But question for the Syndicate peeps: do you guys post a running votecount on the site? On SDN, the mods usually post votecounts at different timeframes (like 3 hours before close, 2 hours, 1 hour etc), which by themselves can be very useful for tracking vote progressions more smoothly. Is this also something done on here?

Or is it mainly voting in the polls and having the game hosts save the screenshots in day close?

[Zenge]

OK, I'm done w/ Zenge for now. I feel he's intentionally bogging down discussion on a single topic, and so!






Moving on

I don’t think so. Answer my question, Falcon.

Why do you believe that my trying to guess how wolves would approach the game, and then looking to see if anyone is doing what I expect wolves to do, isn’t a “Towny Mindset”?

Cuz' you don't follow up or question any of those players that are doing the exact thing you suspect wolves of doing

No no no. These are two completely separate issues, and you’re trying to get out of answering the question by muddling them together.

You bolded my saying here’s how I imagine the wolves would approach the game, and you responded by saying “This isn’t a towny mindset”.

Now that I’m asking you to explain why thinking about how the wolves would approach the game and looking to see if anyone is doing exactly what I expect wolves to do isn’t a “towny mindset, you defaulted back to saying I wasn’t asking players why they voted for Miranda which has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand.

I asked my question to you clearly and concisely twice. The first time you tried to ignore it. The second time you continued to try and shade me with something that has absolutely nothing to do with the question that I asked you.

That’s it. We’re thunderdoming.

This is a wolf, full stop.

[VOTE: Falcon45ca] aubergine

@MacDougall heres where it reaches a head for me

[Lawpy]

Also Nates voting Zenges in that tally is weird

[MacDougall]

Votecount as at this post

falcon45ca 3 - (mightyrunner7, potentialsheltervet, Zenge)
Creature 3 - (santygrass, falcon45ca, DrWilgy)

Marmot 2- (sloonei, MacDougall)
Dennis 2 - (Neon, NateTheLesser)
NateTheLesser 2 - (Marmot, Dennis)

santygrass 1 - (creature)
SARdoghandler 1 - (Seanzie)

DrWilgy 0
dyachei/lawpy 0
genny 0
Kate/Mac 0
Mayo the Mayo 0
mightyrunner7 0
miranda920 0
Neon 0
potentialsheltervet 0
Seanzie 0
S~V~S 0
Sloonei 0
Zenge 0

Sleep / No Elimination 0

Not voting (@SARdoghandler, @santygrass, @Lawpy, @genny, @Mayo the Mayo, @miranda920, @S~V~S)

Notes: Marmot was briefly at 3 when I voted him cuz Dennis was there but has since moved to Nate creating the 3 way tie at 2 and leaving Creature and Falcon at 3 each.

[Dennis]

I actually think that's it

I went over in that post all of the votes, and following that logic where wolves had to really pile on scotty to protect creature, I seriously doubt they did so

[MacDougall]

OK, I'm done w/ Zenge for now. I feel he's intentionally bogging down discussion on a single topic, and so!






Moving on

I don’t think so. Answer my question, Falcon.

Why do you believe that my trying to guess how wolves would approach the game, and then looking to see if anyone is doing what I expect wolves to do, isn’t a “Towny Mindset”?

Cuz' you don't follow up or question any of those players that are doing the exact thing you suspect wolves of doing

No no no. These are two completely separate issues, and you’re trying to get out of answering the question by muddling them together.

You bolded my saying here’s how I imagine the wolves would approach the game, and you responded by saying “This isn’t a towny mindset”.

Now that I’m asking you to explain why thinking about how the wolves would approach the game and looking to see if anyone is doing exactly what I expect wolves to do isn’t a “towny mindset, you defaulted back to saying I wasn’t asking players why they voted for Miranda which has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand.

I asked my question to you clearly and concisely twice. The first time you tried to ignore it. The second time you continued to try and shade me with something that has absolutely nothing to do with the question that I asked you.

That’s it. We’re thunderdoming.

This is a wolf, full stop.

[VOTE: Falcon45ca] aubergine

@MacDougall heres where it reaches a head for me

Thanks

[Dennis]

Are you intentionally pretending you don’t know the definition of defensive?

I asked you why you were voting for Miranda and you freaked out and said I was being weird for daring to ask “why”?

That’s defensive.

Stop twisting my words. I said you’re being weird. Not for asking. You’re just being weird. In general.

When did you say this because I don't think you have

If I unvoted right now it could be a three way tie :heckyeah:

Why are you even voting for Miranda? What’s your endgame here?

I already said I thought her tone was sus. I don’t just snapvote someone I like for funsies unless it’s dubz

Why you bein weird?

First time was here I believe, couple other times afterward

Ah

I was gonna say ponies felt scummy because that post felt like OMGUS but I guess I missed that

(in response to your previous post):

Seanzie is townlean because an interesting pattern I've noticed is that he doesn't say "I'd elim this." nearly as often, or at all, as scum than he does town

One thing that caught my eye was the sudden swooning over mightyrunner? Like sure they looked towny I guess, but there was like 3 to 5 people who all townread them and it felt like there had to be a wolf in there trying to hide amongst the crowd

Interesting point about mighty because i have him in neutrals

Could you refresh me who exactly townread him?

I'm not ignoring you I swear, I'm gonna go find the posts one second

[MacDougall]

I do not like the Miranda wagon. This is happening too fast

3 out of 24 votes is hardly anything to get worked up about especially with over 47 hours left.

It just felt like a lot piling onto one person in a very short amount of time

Well, I s'pose you could ask those voting Miranda as to their reasons...but you're not doing that.





Why?

Actually this is sort of hypocritical on review. Falcon votes me immediately after this. They’re tasking issue with my saying I’m uncomfortable with how fast the three votes seemed to pile onto Miranda, and not asking each of the voters for the reasons for their votes.

But then never asks me why I don’t like the wagon.

What’s worse here is I just noted that it was odd how many votes came on Miranda in rapid succession. But I didn’t use that as an opportunity to wolf read anyone or try to vote them out. Falcon here though did the exact same thing he accused me of doing and used it as an excuse to try and get me misyeeted.

That’s foundationally unsound.

Sounds like OMGUS bro.

[MacDougall]

I do not like the Miranda wagon. This is happening too fast

3 out of 24 votes is hardly anything to get worked up about especially with over 47 hours left.

It just felt like a lot piling onto one person in a very short amount of time

Well, I s'pose you could ask those voting Miranda as to their reasons...but you're not doing that.





Why?

Actually this is sort of hypocritical on review. Falcon votes me immediately after this. They’re tasking issue with my saying I’m uncomfortable with how fast the three votes seemed to pile onto Miranda, and not asking each of the voters for the reasons for their votes.

But then never asks me why I don’t like the wagon.

What’s worse here is I just noted that it was odd how many votes came on Miranda in rapid succession. But I didn’t use that as an opportunity to wolf read anyone or try to vote them out. Falcon here though did the exact same thing he accused me of doing and used it as an excuse to try and get me misyeeted.

That’s foundationally unsound.

You already said why you did not like the wagon, remember?






Now you're saying you found the speed of the wagon odd, before you clearly said you did not like it. So, is it strange, or is it scummy? There's a big difference.







You're also toning down the phrasing each time...first you say you don't like it, then uncomfortable, then odd. You keep scaling back how you feel about the wagon.






I see you still haven't followed up w/ any of the wagon voters. Duly noted.

First of all, no, I haven’t said why. I’ve said things about I don’t like but I haven’t stated my primary gripe with it.

Secondly, as part of my issue with the wagon, I originally said I felt like it was happening very quickly. Claiming I only just now have taken issue with the speed is a blatant lie and mischaracterization of reality.

Lastly I don’t need to follow up with the voters at this time. I don’t believe going to each one individually and asking them “why are you voting Miranda?” Like Oliver Twist asking for soup, will yield any relevant information from their catered and crafted answers. That’s not how I solve.

It’s furthermore counterintuitive for you to make such a big todo about how “WhY aReN’T yOu aSkiNg fOr tHeiR rEaSonS?!?!” When you yourself seem wholly uninterested in the reasons yourself.

I have a reason for not asking. But you, who based on your push of me it seems puts an ENORMOUS amount of value on asking people why they’re voting for someone is entirely uninterested in actually figuring out why people are voting for who they are. This is counterintuitive in a way that seems fairly scummy.

Bro wtf is this?

You got initially sus of Falcon because he didn't ask you what was wrong with the wagon, but you had already said some stuff that was wrong with it that he had read, and instead of accepting that you say no I haven't said my primary gripe with it. How the fuck is he supposed to know what you haven't said?

Dude, if you engage people this way you are going to be so prone to confbias and tunnels? There is nothing at all wrong with Falcon's mindset in this post and if you think him disengaging with you later is wolfy consider that you might be tunneling.

[MacDougall]

I'll continue reading later but your appraisal of this engagement so far is painfully confbiased and inaccurate.

[miranda920]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

Yes, she was my manator “mentor” for WW. She honestly sounds pretty typical town SAR to me. But I’ve never played a game with her where she was a wolf, so I can’t speak to that.

[Lawpy]

I have a bad gut feel on SVS.

Is this still true now? I have them as neutrals

[Dennis]

I asked you why you were voting for Miranda and you freaked out and said I was being weird for daring to ask “why”?

That’s defensive.

Stop twisting my words. I said you’re being weird. Not for asking. You’re just being weird. In general.

When did you say this because I don't think you have

If I unvoted right now it could be a three way tie :heckyeah:

Why are you even voting for Miranda? What’s your endgame here?

I already said I thought her tone was sus. I don’t just snapvote someone I like for funsies unless it’s dubz

Why you bein weird?

First time was here I believe, couple other times afterward

Ah

I was gonna say ponies felt scummy because that post felt like OMGUS but I guess I missed that

(in response to your previous post):

Seanzie is townlean because an interesting pattern I've noticed is that he doesn't say "I'd elim this." nearly as often, or at all, as scum than he does town

One thing that caught my eye was the sudden swooning over mightyrunner? Like sure they looked towny I guess, but there was like 3 to 5 people who all townread them and it felt like there had to be a wolf in there trying to hide amongst the crowd

Interesting point about mighty because i have him in neutrals

Could you refresh me who exactly townread him?

I'm not ignoring you I swear, I'm gonna go find the posts one second

alrighty @Lawpy I don't care enough anymore

I could only find 2, coincidentally scotty and AM, both dead townies but I swear there was more

[miranda920]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

We have mentors on SDN for incoming new players. SAR was miranda's mentor in her first game. (Hence references to SAR being miranda's mother. The SDN family trees are highly complex and incestuous the more you dive in.)

There was a post where Miranda begged SAR to help them with the game and SAR was like "ask and you shall receive my child" then did nothing and Miranda didn't follow up. It felt... performative and wolfy on both sides.

I remember the posts in question. I don't recall miranda asking for help with anything specific and it seemed more coincidence that SAR happened to show up shortly after. I didn't read it as overly wolfy but also they behaved similarly in a recent SDN game where they were both town so I have that meta on them.

I was mostly just joking around!
SAR tends to bring some good takes so I was hoping by tagging her she would give us her wisdom

[miranda920]

Okay, I’m going to bed - I’ve been up since 3AM lol

I will look at Falcon ISO tomorrow for sure and a few others

Goodnight!

[MacDougall]

Actually Miranda's push on santy gave me a

Multiple people said that it was NAI for them to go absent, but then miranda sussed santy for it, and then seemed to change their mind when shut down??

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

We have mentors on SDN for incoming new players. SAR was miranda's mentor in her first game. (Hence references to SAR being miranda's mother. The SDN family trees are highly complex and incestuous the more you dive in.)

There was a post where Miranda begged SAR to help them with the game and SAR was like "ask and you shall receive my child" then did nothing and Miranda didn't follow up. It felt... performative and wolfy on both sides.

I remember the posts in question. I don't recall miranda asking for help with anything specific and it seemed more coincidence that SAR happened to show up shortly after. I didn't read it as overly wolfy but also they behaved similarly in a recent SDN game where they were both town so I have that meta on them.

I was mostly just joking around!
SAR tends to bring some good takes so I was hoping by tagging her she would give us her wisdom

Did it?

[miranda920]

I didn’t say it was wolfy per say, I just said it was weird
I said that even before sloonei put me on the spot

I also very clearly said I didn’t have any other reads at that moment if you paid attention

Do you know SARdoghandler well? That slot is bothersome to me.

We have mentors on SDN for incoming new players. SAR was miranda's mentor in her first game. (Hence references to SAR being miranda's mother. The SDN family trees are highly complex and incestuous the more you dive in.)

There was a post where Miranda begged SAR to help them with the game and SAR was like "ask and you shall receive my child" then did nothing and Miranda didn't follow up. It felt... performative and wolfy on both sides.

I remember the posts in question. I don't recall miranda asking for help with anything specific and it seemed more coincidence that SAR happened to show up shortly after. I didn't read it as overly wolfy but also they behaved similarly in a recent SDN game where they were both town so I have that meta on them.

I was mostly just joking around!
SAR tends to bring some good takes so I was hoping by tagging her she would give us her wisdom

Did it?

Eh, not really but she got Santy to reappear lol

This is typically how SAR and I interact though

[Lawpy]

Also I'll do this.

[VOTE: no vote] aubergine

Why

Because I was still on Zenge and the read's stale, but I don't know where I want to push yet.

Give me the elevator pitch on Scotty since you're there.

This is a weird reversal from Nates