The Syndicate 2014 Game of Champions [ENDGAME]

[bea]

I'd also like a bit more clarification on your D1 play, DH? What exactly were you trying to accomplish? I'm more than happy to look at someone else today provided I'm satisfied at what you say you were doing. Were you specifically trying to catch Made out? I'm a bit confused.

As for Made - I'm not sure I buy this blackmailing. Even if it is true, surely that means he has something to hide by conforming to it. Maybe you just have a powerful civ role, I dunno. Do you know for sure it wasn't Boddy?

I found the whole thing about asking for words for the PM suspect as well. If we all believe you, you can now call someone a liar if they say they were blackmailed and don't match the third word of the PM you received. Gives you a bit more weight in the game

Over to you, Snow Doggy Dog

Quoting Zeek but answering Roxy/Zeek/whoever has questions about it.

Well, like some people were saying, my goal was to play against type, to do things/say things/go after people that I wouldn't, normally, and to behave as opposite my Misfits behavior as possible. I tried to contrast that game specifically to see if anyone who played it (SVS, Made, etc) caught onto that.

I'm assuming this is the post you meant was directed toward me and not Rox (it's great company to be confused with btw. )

My question to you is - you say you did this to target a specific group of people who played THAT particular game. Well what about the rest of us? You had to know that MOST of us didn't play that game and were/are going to take you at face value. And if you remove yourself from the fact that it's you and pretend any other player did what you did - you have to admit, it's pretty frackin' sketchy. Did the info you claim to have been seeking from a few pay off for the fact that I kinda really don't trust you right now DH?

llama - you didn't dismiss it - but you didn't exactly point it out as a possibility right? You were pretty quick to jump on the idea that Made obviously took Body's blackmail because he must be hiding something nafarious. I feel like we are approaching the potentially same idea from different sides? Am I wrong?

Mordor sucks it. Especially if there is bus duty involoved

The primary targets were the Misfits players, but everyone else was also under observation, for sure. Just because you didn't play Misfits doesn't mean I wasn't keeping an eye out for how you reacted to my scheme, in other words.

Linki - Nice going partner.

I don't feel like this adequately addressed my question. Which was more along the lines of can't you see how people who didn't play that game, might not be clued into the fact that you were running an elaborate ruse? and also - what did you learn from said elaborate ruse??

I'm now off to bed. Admittedly- my posts tonight have been beer and sleep deprived fueled - if I've left anything about my thoughts open for question, please ask me. I'm an open book this game. I've got nothing to hide. I want to be as open and clear in my intentions and thoughts as possible.

[Dom]

Hey, yo guys, so uh my vote was forced so I'm just gonna get that out of the way now.

Voting Boomslang.

I'm not going to post the exact message, so that way we can have a sort of key to prove when someone is telling the truth, and someone is lying about being vote forced.

So next time someone claims votes force i'll ask for like the 5th or 3rd word in the message and if they match up, they're clear.

Thoughts?

I don't believe you. I think you are bad
Let's analyze this for a moment:
I do not believe for a second Epig would allow someone to say their vote is forced. Made is not new anymore and should know this is generally frowned upon. Here's where the logic breaks down for me:
1) You say you won't post the exact message so you can use it as a key to see if people are lying about forced votes. You cannot copy and paste host PMs, anyway. that is a standard rule of mafia since the dawn of time.
2) And then, we're supposed to just believe you about the coded message? Why?
3) And I'm supposed to believe that Epig would let the integrity of a role die like this?

None of this adds up to me. Welcome to the suspicion list.


Boomslang, who do you advocate for lynching?

[DFaraday]

Dom did sum it up pretty well, and I agree that Made's behavior is pretty sketchy, but I'd like to hear Made try to explain himself as well.

*tags Russ*

[Boomslang]

Hey, yo guys, so uh my vote was forced so I'm just gonna get that out of the way now.

Voting Boomslang.

I'm not going to post the exact message, so that way we can have a sort of key to prove when someone is telling the truth, and someone is lying about being vote forced.

So next time someone claims votes force i'll ask for like the 5th or 3rd word in the message and if they match up, they're clear.

Thoughts?

I don't believe you. I think you are bad
Let's analyze this for a moment:
I do not believe for a second Epig would allow someone to say their vote is forced. Made is not new anymore and should know this is generally frowned upon. Here's where the logic breaks down for me:
1) You say you won't post the exact message so you can use it as a key to see if people are lying about forced votes. You cannot copy and paste host PMs, anyway. that is a standard rule of mafia since the dawn of time.
2) And then, we're supposed to just believe you about the coded message? Why?
3) And I'm supposed to believe that Epig would let the integrity of a role die like this?

None of this adds up to me. Welcome to the suspicion list.


Boomslang, who do you advocate for lynching?

Well, I've been trying to wait for INH to acknowledge my existence, as I tagged him for my partner and I don't want to hand out points to other teams willy-nilly. But I feel like it's been long enough to at least acknowledge that he hasn't posted yet in Day 2 and didn't vote in the partner poll, both of which are a little pingy. I've been left high and dry here.

[thellama73]

Linki - Nice going partner.

I'm sorry. I was thrown by Bea's double post.

[DharmaHelper]

I'd also like a bit more clarification on your D1 play, DH? What exactly were you trying to accomplish? I'm more than happy to look at someone else today provided I'm satisfied at what you say you were doing. Were you specifically trying to catch Made out? I'm a bit confused.

As for Made - I'm not sure I buy this blackmailing. Even if it is true, surely that means he has something to hide by conforming to it. Maybe you just have a powerful civ role, I dunno. Do you know for sure it wasn't Boddy?

I found the whole thing about asking for words for the PM suspect as well. If we all believe you, you can now call someone a liar if they say they were blackmailed and don't match the third word of the PM you received. Gives you a bit more weight in the game

Over to you, Snow Doggy Dog

Quoting Zeek but answering Roxy/Zeek/whoever has questions about it.

Well, like some people were saying, my goal was to play against type, to do things/say things/go after people that I wouldn't, normally, and to behave as opposite my Misfits behavior as possible. I tried to contrast that game specifically to see if anyone who played it (SVS, Made, etc) caught onto that.

I'm assuming this is the post you meant was directed toward me and not Rox (it's great company to be confused with btw. )

My question to you is - you say you did this to target a specific group of people who played THAT particular game. Well what about the rest of us? You had to know that MOST of us didn't play that game and were/are going to take you at face value. And if you remove yourself from the fact that it's you and pretend any other player did what you did - you have to admit, it's pretty frackin' sketchy. Did the info you claim to have been seeking from a few pay off for the fact that I kinda really don't trust you right now DH?

llama - you didn't dismiss it - but you didn't exactly point it out as a possibility right? You were pretty quick to jump on the idea that Made obviously took Body's blackmail because he must be hiding something nafarious. I feel like we are approaching the potentially same idea from different sides? Am I wrong?

Mordor sucks it. Especially if there is bus duty involoved

The primary targets were the Misfits players, but everyone else was also under observation, for sure. Just because you didn't play Misfits doesn't mean I wasn't keeping an eye out for how you reacted to my scheme, in other words.

Linki - Nice going partner.

I don't feel like this adequately addressed my question. Which was more along the lines of can't you see how people who didn't play that game, might not be clued into the fact that you were running an elaborate ruse? and also - what did you learn from said elaborate ruse??

I'm now off to bed. Admittedly- my posts tonight have been beer and sleep deprived fueled - if I've left anything about my thoughts open for question, please ask me. I'm an open book this game. I've got nothing to hide. I want to be as open and clear in my intentions and thoughts as possible.

Let me explain it this way:

While it would be easier for those who played Misfits to identify the odd behavior, I believe it would be still possible for those who didn't play that particular game, but who know me and my style, to identify it. Misfits was a very rough template of the strategy, but the core of it was "design an odd way to behave in order to flush out suspects."

If by "clue in" you mean figure out I was bullshitting, you're missing my point. I didn't expect anyone to realize that I was playing a trick, but I expected them to note odd, suspicious behavior. If I wanted people to know I was playing a ruse, that would defeat the ruse.

As to what I learned, for now I'm gonna keep that close to the vest, except to say Made is sketchy.

[Turnip Head]

Rest in peace BR, sad to see you go so early

By the way, Is this non-committal relatively quiet behaviour from TH something you expect from him as a civ? Because in all the games that I've played with him and he was a civ (which isn't many), he was more involved.

Yes, my play so far is normal for me. It's Day 2 and I'm in the middle of the pack, post-wise. Once things get going I tend to climb toward the top of the posters list. I wouldn't call me style non-committal... what do you think I've been noncommittal about? And do you think non-committalness is baddie behavior?

Here's a question for the Made voters... what do you think he has to gain from lying? What kind of ploy could this possibly be? He's either telling the truth or lying for no good reason... It doesn't make sense for Made to lie any more than it makes sense that he's telling the truth. As for pulling Epi's hosting decisions into the equation... how can you assume what Epi will or won't allow a player to say? I remember in X-Men there was a big kerfuffle about an info-dump. A player was outed but it also ended up backfiring on the civs somewhat. Epi played it cool and didn't interfere. So I don't see any precedent for assuming Epi would interfere with what a player says in the game. And so I have no reason to question Made's authenticity in this matter.

As for DH's big Day 1 move, I don't know if I believe it, but I believe that DH believes it. In any case I'm still not getting baddie vibes from DH even though he's been a bit all over the place.

*tags Lizzy*

[Turnip Head]

Double posting because I like the 5 teams below me and because idgaf

I note that, although there are seven roles with secrets, only one public role can sort of force votes, and that is Mr. Boddy. If your vote was forced by Boddy, Made, why did you let him blackmail you? Got something to hide?

*Votes Made.*

This is a good point. Counterpoint: Boddy could certainly disseminate false information.


@Host - So if no one posts out of turn, no one can be NK'd?

That's not how he worked in my game, but I guess Epig could have changed it.

So how did this role work in this other game you're referencing? I'm assuming that if Made does anything against Mr. Boddy's wishes, that Boddy would successfully blackmail him. Isn't that how it should work? I'm guessing there will be repercussions for Made, if he's telling the truth.

But Made... did I see you say that you were targeted by a role with a *secret*? Does that mean Mr. Boddy isn't responsible for your forced vote, and if that's the case, can you say who you think is responsible?

[thellama73]

Double posting because I like the 5 teams below me and because idgaf

I note that, although there are seven roles with secrets, only one public role can sort of force votes, and that is Mr. Boddy. If your vote was forced by Boddy, Made, why did you let him blackmail you? Got something to hide?

*Votes Made.*

This is a good point. Counterpoint: Boddy could certainly disseminate false information.


@Host - So if no one posts out of turn, no one can be NK'd?

That's not how he worked in my game, but I guess Epig could have changed it.

So how did this role work in this other game you're referencing? I'm assuming that if Made does anything against Mr. Boddy's wishes, that Boddy would successfully blackmail him. Isn't that how it should work? I'm guessing there will be repercussions for Made, if he's telling the truth.

But Made... did I see you say that you were targeted by a role with a *secret*? Does that mean Mr. Boddy isn't responsible for your forced vote, and if that's the case, can you say who you think is responsible?

In CLue the Movie Mafia, the host would send Mr. Boddy a piece of info about the player he targeted's role (gender, features in the image such as "wearing a hat, etc." The target would then be told that he had to vote a certain way, or else this piece of info (which was not known to the target) would be posted in the thread. The host would post the info, so there was no possibility of publishing false info.

[Snow Dog]

Just going to post in case zeek has something further to say. I'm busy at the moment. See ya all.

[DharmaHelper]

Double posting because I like the 5 teams below me and because idgaf

I note that, although there are seven roles with secrets, only one public role can sort of force votes, and that is Mr. Boddy. If your vote was forced by Boddy, Made, why did you let him blackmail you? Got something to hide?

*Votes Made.*

This is a good point. Counterpoint: Boddy could certainly disseminate false information.


@Host - So if no one posts out of turn, no one can be NK'd?

That's not how he worked in my game, but I guess Epig could have changed it.

So how did this role work in this other game you're referencing? I'm assuming that if Made does anything against Mr. Boddy's wishes, that Boddy would successfully blackmail him. Isn't that how it should work? I'm guessing there will be repercussions for Made, if he's telling the truth.

But Made... did I see you say that you were targeted by a role with a *secret*? Does that mean Mr. Boddy isn't responsible for your forced vote, and if that's the case, can you say who you think is responsible?

In CLue the Movie Mafia, the host would send Mr. Boddy a piece of info about the player he targeted's role (gender, features in the image such as "wearing a hat, etc." The target would then be told that he had to vote a certain way, or else this piece of info (which was not known to the target) would be posted in the thread. The host would post the info, so there was no possibility of publishing false info.

Ah, well that certainly clears that up.

[zeek]

Just going to post in case zeek has something further to say. I'm busy at the moment. See ya all.

I'm good for now, Snowy. I'm signing off for the night.

Got a feeling this tag team competition will go out the window close to deadline anyway. Being this side of the pond we probably won't score those points anyway, being so late.

[juliets]

I apologize but I just got home for the day and want to give Dom another chance to post but haven't read and formed thoughts about whats been said today. I can't do that until a little later so I'm posting in case Dom has something he would like to say now.

[thellama73]

I apologize but I just got home for the day and want to give Dom another chance to post but haven't read and formed thoughts about whats been said today. I can't do that until a little later so I'm posting in case Dom has something he would like to say now.

Never apologize, juliets. It shows weakness.

[Made]

Double posting because I like the 5 teams below me and because idgaf

I note that, although there are seven roles with secrets, only one public role can sort of force votes, and that is Mr. Boddy. If your vote was forced by Boddy, Made, why did you let him blackmail you? Got something to hide?

*Votes Made.*

This is a good point. Counterpoint: Boddy could certainly disseminate false information.


@Host - So if no one posts out of turn, no one can be NK'd?

That's not how he worked in my game, but I guess Epig could have changed it.

So how did this role work in this other game you're referencing? I'm assuming that if Made does anything against Mr. Boddy's wishes, that Boddy would successfully blackmail him. Isn't that how it should work? I'm guessing there will be repercussions for Made, if he's telling the truth.

But Made... did I see you say that you were targeted by a role with a *secret*? Does that mean Mr. Boddy isn't responsible for your forced vote, and if that's the case, can you say who you think is responsible?

This was one of the keys i plan on using if Epi attempted to screw with me.

gonna continue replying to things stand by...

Hey, yo guys, so uh my vote was forced so I'm just gonna get that out of the way now.

Voting Boomslang.

I'm not going to post the exact message, so that way we can have a sort of key to prove when someone is telling the truth, and someone is lying about being vote forced.

So next time someone claims votes force i'll ask for like the 5th or 3rd word in the message and if they match up, they're clear.

Thoughts?

I don't believe you. I think you are bad
Let's analyze this for a moment:
I do not believe for a second Epig would allow someone to say their vote is forced. Made is not new anymore and should know this is generally frowned upon. Here's where the logic breaks down for me:
1) You say you won't post the exact message so you can use it as a key to see if people are lying about forced votes. You cannot copy and paste host PMs, anyway. that is a standard rule of mafia since the dawn of time. Yeah, Epi had to inform me of that...regardless, using it as a key
2) And then, we're supposed to just believe you about the coded message? Why? no particular reason, but having a key would make it less likely for someone to try to lie, wouldn't it? It's like how drug test have the effect of making less people want to do drugs out of risk of being caught
3) And I'm supposed to believe that Epig would let the integrity of a role die like this?yes

None of this adds up to me. Welcome to the suspicion list.
It is indeed a fun play to be, I must say

I'd also like a bit more clarification on your D1 play, DH? What exactly were you trying to accomplish? I'm more than happy to look at someone else today provided I'm satisfied at what you say you were doing. Were you specifically trying to catch Made out? I'm a bit confused.

As for Made - I'm not sure I buy this blackmailing. Even if it is true, surely that means he has something to hide by conforming to it. Maybe you just have a powerful civ role, I dunno. Do you know for sure it wasn't Boddy?

I found the whole thing about asking for words for the PM suspect as well. If we all believe you, you can now call someone a liar if they say they were blackmailed and don't match the third word of the PM you received. Gives you a bit more weight in the game

Over to you, Snow Doggy Dog

Why wouldn't you buy it? I'm not saying he's confirmed civ because after N1 he came out and said his vote was forced (hellz bellz he could be on the baddie team with Body and they are using it to gain cred) - but what I am saying is I can see lots of reasons why a civ would take the blackmail.

As far as the "pm word matching thing." I think it was a decent idea on Made's part to have, but for balance reasons I think Epi as a host might potentially throw gears into that plan.

Before you said it, did DH say he was trying to attract Made's attention? Because I feel like that never happened till you said it and now he's saying he wanted Made and SVS to respond to his D1 style. You see where this might look fishy to me right?
No, it happened. It's funny, because I kinda trusted him because he was acting different from his misfits game, but he's now playing traditional DH baddie and it's ticking me off.

I think it's fair to say that DH and I know each others play styles relatively well. At least more than most know each others. So admittedly he outplayed me yesterday by switching up his play style, but today he's playing his traditional baddie game to me lynched, and it's bull. This is EXACTLY the same situation that happened in misfit. I voted early and DH capitalized. Paging MP, the only person that I think could at least kinda back me up on this.

There's a key bit of information i'm intentionally leaving out about the way that he's done this that I think MP will pick up, hopefully adding validity to my claim.

Regarding "what would Made have to gain by lying":

If he is indeed being blackmailed, he would have good reason to claim it is one of the secret roles and not Mr. Boddy, because if it is Mr. Boddy, it means he has something to hide.
If he is not being blackmailed or forced at all, I suspect he just wants to hurt the credibility of people whose votes are forced in the future. Maybe he IS Mr. Boddy, and hopes to expand his own power by not only blackmailing people, but making an example of those who refuse to be blackmailed. I guess i can give away one of my keys: Unless I vote Boomslang, I die. My goal was by announcing that my vote was forced, I would not be a pawn in this person's game, and flip the script on them. What i didn't expect was HellaBaddie DH. That said, expect my next post to be describing Boomslang's previous suspectors. So I, you know, don't get lynched

I think the above also answers FZ's post.

*Tags Elo*

[reywaS]

hmm.

[DharmaHelper]

Hey Llama, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

[Dom]

I apologize but I just got home for the day and want to give Dom another chance to post but haven't read and formed thoughts about whats been said today. I can't do that until a little later so I'm posting in case Dom has something he would like to say now.

Thank you ^_^
I also meant to respond to your post to me earlier, but accidentally posted without including it in my multi quote. <3

No, it happened. It's funny, because I kinda trusted him because he was acting different from his misfits game, but he's now playing traditional DH baddie and it's ticking me off.

I think it's fair to say that DH and I know each others play styles relatively well. At least more than most know each others. So admittedly he outplayed me yesterday by switching up his play style, but today he's playing his traditional baddie game to me lynched, and it's bull. This is EXACTLY the same situation that happened in misfit. I voted early and DH capitalized. Paging MP, the only person that I think could at least kinda back me up on this.

There's a key bit of information i'm intentionally leaving out about the way that he's done this that I think MP will pick up, hopefully adding validity to my claim.

What makes you think you and DH know each other so well? Why do you know each other better than most players know each others' games? You're a relatively new player and DH is a veteran. I am wondering where you get this knowledge and apparent insight into DH's game-- something that someone who has played with him for several years (me) does not have.
I did not play Misfits, but I don't think you got a full understanding of DH's game in one game. I'm not sure what DH is doing this game and I'm unclear on his alignment, but your statement aren't sitting well with me at all.

hmm.

Yes??
Anything??




RE BOOMSLANG:
So, you'd like to see INH lynched simply because he isn't posting?
That's strange to me.
Very strange. I'll be intrigued to see if he does post.

[timmer]

hmm.

You going to be around tonight, pardner? I need to get caught up in the game but I don't want to have to do it in one giant post, lol.

[thellama73]

Hey Llama, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

I've made my decision. I think Made is a liar and I'm very happy with my vote. Nothing else jumps out at present except that it is time for me to go drinking.

[Bass_the_Clever]

I see the case on Made but what happens if he is telling the truth and we lynch him for this, no one else is going to come forward and say "my vote was forced by someone else that isn't Boddy" for fear of being lynched.

[Turnip Head]

Hey Llama, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

I've made my decision. I think Made is a liar and I'm very happy with my vote. Nothing else jumps out at present except that it is time for me to go drinking.

Llama, you appreciate logic. Please, walk me through the logic of Made lying about this. Let's start inside his baddie brain, from the time this scheme was formed, can you present a cohesive scenario where it makes sense for him to be lying? What is he gaining from this ordeal other than your vote?

[Marmot]

Can dead people get points?

[Tangrowth]

Hello, everyone! Daisy and I made it to San Antonio safe and sound! I haven't still had time for a proper thread catchup as we've been running errands getting Daisy settled in, but I will start that now. It may take some time though since I have a lot to read and I'll be multitasking.

[DharmaHelper]

RE: Dom/Boomslang/INH

I don't like the idea of placing suspicion on someone who is absent. That said, I too would like to see more from INH.

[Elohcin]

Hey Llama, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

I've made my decision. I think Made is a liar and I'm very happy with my vote. Nothing else jumps out at present except that it is time for me to go drinking.

Llama, you appreciate logic. Please, walk me through the logic of Made lying about this. Let's start inside his baddie brain, from the time this scheme was formed, can you present a cohesive scenario where it makes sense for him to be lying? What is he gaining from this ordeal other than your vote?

I'm looking forward to hearing llamas answer too. I am on the fence with made.

*tags made*

[S~V~S]

Hey Bass

I am not so sure Made is lying, either. First off, having modded him a time or two, I know he asks EXTREME questions on the rules before he does anything. Boddys role does not specify that his target may not be revealed. The rules do not say you cannot say you were targeted. And there are plenty of civ reasons a person may not want info about them revealed. Civs don't want targets drawn on their backs. If the hosts says "Player X is a female role" and you are on Bavmordas team, you can narrow down the role. I got targeted by Boddy in the original game (which Made played) and I came right out and said it (although I did not vote as he wanted, and he said my role was male, which is why I used that as my example).

And "vote for Boom" is a very plausible directive imo if Boddy assumed that the targeting would not be revealed. Boom was in close contention in yesterdays lynch, and he is still holding suspicion.

I feel horrible that I suspected Metalmarsh for, in part, his association to my mind with DH. I am going to vote DH now in case Bass is out partying for the weekend. DH is totally capable of believing he can WIFOM his way out of a BR kill (what did he say, "It's an obvious set up") by saying it's an obvious set up. He started his game by reaching into the DH Playbook and attempting to provoke either reywaS or I into a distracting hissy fit. Plus I don't totally get the case on Boom, and I don't see why Made would make this up. If Boddy really did target someone that person would know he was lying. And if Boddy self targeted, well, why not target someone off the team to force a vote? That seems a strange waste to me.

I have been at work, but wanted to get this said since I got tagged.

I am *Voting DH* and will finish catching up to today shortly. If there has been a revelation that DH is not bad, I can always change it.

[Made]

What makes you think you and DH know each other so well? Why do you know each other better than most players know each others' games? You're a relatively new player and DH is a veteran. I am wondering where you get this knowledge and apparent insight into DH's game-- something that someone who has played with him for several years (me) does not have.

Irc as well as multiple games of Board games online, resistance, and party mafia. It's one thing to understand someone's play in one context, but when you can find threads between multiple situations, the only constant being the same player, you learn things. This is especially true when they don't know you're watching so closely.

going to the mall, might be able to check in everyone once in a while, but nothing substantial.
pass back to elo.

[Bass_the_Clever]

Hey S~V~S the cool kids don't go out this early. lol

I agree with you about Made. I still need to go back and re-read DH.

[juliets]

Made, as an example, what did you learn about DH in irc and are you saying you know him so well that you've actually played party mafia with him? If so, what did you learn from that experience? S~V~S makes some good points about you I think and I'm not sure where I fall yet on you but this statement about how you know DH's style seems totally off.

[S~V~S]

Cool let me know what you think after you do so.

The other thing I wanted to address was Roxy. For the most part, I think I read her fairly well. And Llama, you used a good word! Roxy CAN be testy. CIVVIE Roxy can be testy; baddie Roxy tends to be very civil & level until she is backed into a corner, then she takes testy right all the way to bitchy. Roxy leading with the snark makes me feel better about her. Calling Roxy "testy" and trying to imply that this is somehow suspicious is like calling me "defensive" and saying that it makes me bad. It doesn't.

Now she could fool me; last game we play I believe she did. But yeah, Roxy can be testy. As a civvie.

I have some stuff to do, and then I will get back. I know why DH & Llama voted for Made, but I would like to see why LC did. The only post I found was the one where he voted for DH. Does anyone know when he changed it? I am assuming he is waiting for Lorab to return to post about why he changed it?

[Roxy]

I think llama was trying to wind meup for an easy lynch - kind of like what SVS says what DH did.

I voted for llama and unless something drastic happens it will remain.
He never even bothered to respond to my post to him or answer any questions I asked.
I have to say he can dish it out but cannot handle what comes of it.

Your welcome for the points everyone <3

[Dom]

So SVS, you think Made is civvie, then?

Also, I do not want to pursue an INH lynch. I was asking if Boomslang does. I'm interested to see if he posts for a different reason.

[Spacedaisy]

I find Made's claim that he was forced to vote Boomslang too tough to swallow. I doubt Epi would be ok with him announcing that. What I am wondering is if there is a role that might force him to make such an outlandish claim?

[Tangrowth]

Okay, I have some things to say for sure. I've been waiting for Daisy to post.

So now that she has...

My suspicions have changed up a bit now that I've had time to read through everything properly AND given the way the lynch went down AND given the fact that most of the thread's posts I just read for the first time.

My biggest suspects at the moment are Llama, Dom, DFaraday, and DH, in that order, descending. I don't feel that strongly about DH, however, as I keep going back and forth on him. I'm not really sure what I think about LC anymore. I also still do not think rey or Boomslang are bad, but I wouldn't say I'm sure they are civilian.

In short, the reasons I suspect those players are as follows:
1. I suspect all three of Llama, Dom, and DH for their Made votes today. I don't understand why a baddie Made would do this, and although I entertain the possibility, their closed-mindedness and early votes for him really strike me as opportunistic.
2. All four of them, but particularly Llama and Dom, appear to be suspecting players for odd reasons (they disagree with their logic, don't understand their POV, etc., all classic logical fallacies). DFaraday's vote for MM yesterday was especially shifty.
3. I think Dom's aggression against Boomslang, as well as Llama's against Rox, and DH's against LC, seem unnecessarily strong-willed and I am not necessarily convinced all three of these cases are truly believed. I had moments where I considered the possibility of these arguments to be contrived.

Call it gut, but they are the four whose intentions I'm currently most questioning.

More of my thought process on this matter can be extrapolated from my responses to follow, but that's my quick summary. I also don't feel REALLY strongly about any of them, and really don't know how I feel about a lot of players, so who knows where my vote will go? Even though they have remained changeable, I don't intend on just throwing out my vote and believe it should be treated with the same seriousness as if it was permanent.

Speaking of which, what happened to this?

Are votes changeable in this game? I hate that...

I also hate it. It takes away the seriousness that comes with casting a vote. Makes things much harder on the civvies, I think.

Add this to the reasons why I don't trust Llama right now one bit, seeing as though he has cast his vote for such a reason so early.

Humorous antics are an often effective way to deflect suspicion in the early days of mafia games.

Do you think so? My experience is that people often get lynched wrongly for humorous antics in the early days of mafia games, while baddies lay low or pretend to be helpful.

In my experience, if someone gets a couple chuckles, and plays the court jester. it creates a mindset that "this person can't possibly be bad, look how ridiculous they're acting. Plus, they're funny so I want to keep them around and see what else they've got that is funny"

It's a common, effective tactic. Put your enemy at ease, make them either underestimate you.

Indeed.

I usually draw suspicion on day one for being out of tune. I think I am actually doing a fantastic job of staying on task thus far.

Upon re-read, this is so ironic.

Alright, now onto more serious matters...

I think the people voting for the people who voted for no reason have less reason to their vote than the people they are voting for.

I don't think this is true. Why do you say that?

I don't think it's true, either. I hope TH comes back and answers you.

DH, I know I am a fool for this, but I am going to ask you to elaborate here. You don't take time to search forums for no reason. I am seeing a tenuous connection between my behavior in Misfits (where I was a baddie & Boogs a civ, though Keterman was bad) and yours in this game. But I am sure you did not go to all that effort to pull a quote where you are behaving as I did when I was a baddie. So stop with the vague and make your point, eh?

I don't think I was being vague at all. I noticed the discussion in *this* game about the phrase "making a federal case" and remembered the discussion in Misfits about "scum tell". As I said, I found the coincidence funny. I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone over it, I just thought that it was something sort-of-kind-of poetic, having that happen in two games.

This really makes me nervous about you to be honest. You say you just pointed this out because it was "kind of poetic"...and I guess the assumption in this is that you wanted everyone else to share your little chuckle. Maybe that's true, but I know that you are a really smart guy and certainly capable of being subtle with your motives. But when it comes down to it, what you actually did there was draw a connection in people's minds to SVS being a baddie.

rey, do you still feel this way?

Because I'm trying to decide how I feel about it. It bugs me too. But I have a really hard time discerning DH's intentions this game (well, any game, for that matter).

Excellent, game on. The Day 0 poll really doesn't give us much to go on compared to previous games, but those who failed to check in are certainly the outliers here.

Does being an outlier make them bad?

My reasoning is that, if the majority of players are civvies, then the majority/average action taken is most likely to be civvie. It's not perfect, but it's playing the odds.

I think I will be voting you...

That makes zero sense. By the same logic, you can assume that most non-actions are civilian because most players are civilian. Your logic has several flaws in it. You are assuming civilians and baddies act in the same way. They do not. Civvies are far more likely to be inactive because they do not have BTSC members to prod them to participate.

Dom, can you explain to me why Boomslang's logic, which you clearly find flawed, makes him bad?

Because I'm not seeing it.

I don't know who I'll vote for today but I agree Dharmahelper has been very funny... perhaps too funny

MP hasn't accused anyone yet. I know his access is limited but he's post a couple of times, that should be enough for him to accuse someone :P

Game on.

If you had to name your top three suspects at the moment, who would they be and why?

I think Dom is right. Boomslang is the kind of player I've been looking for. Not too prominent, not too absent, and saying things that don't quite make sense. I'm very happy to vote for Boomslang today.

I don't understand this, Llama.

Do you think Boomslang's behavior is any different than any other game you've played with him? I'd say "not too prominent, not too absent" describes literally every game he's played thus far.

And why do you keep saying that logic = civvie? You said this with MM as well. Just because you agree with someone's logic, it makes them good, and vice versa -- why? It's ironically flawed logic.

Baddies can be brilliant at logic and civilians failures at it. Not to mention the fact that no one, including you, has flawless logic. So just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they have flawed logic.

I'm gonna start working soon, so I will vote now and explain my vote to the best of my ability.

Early voting is suspicious. We can argue this back and forth all we want but at the end of the day, early voting is suspicious.


I know Rey. I know Rey is a gunslinger of a player. As SVS has said, I know Rey is particularly defensive. So when I made my observations, I figured he'd be a little defensive of them, which I was prepared for and accounted for in my ping. LC knows Rey, this shouldn't really come as so much of a shock to him that Rey acted the way he did towards my comments.

I also know LC, though a bit less. LC does not strike me as the sort of guy to not account for something like Rey's style, or the type of guy to vote so early for such a poor reason with so much left to discuss. That he jumped so ravenously onto his Rey vote with reasoning that wasn't even true (He thought Rey was reacting to a post that was not about him. It was.) It just gives me a bad case of the pings.

Speaking of oddly defensive posts:

"You got a little defensive here in this one post" Is a wobbly, weak reason for such an early vote. I don't necessarily care if it is Day 1 or Day 8, a vote is a vote. And you can't honestly tell me it is a civvie thing to do or in the civvies best interest to vote that early for that reason.

Why not? Are you against generating discussion, and gauging reactions? You'd prefer if everyone voted low posters or random or for no reason?

This sort of tactic, answering a suspicion by asking clearly overblown and hyperbolic questions, is something I don't think any civvie would do, let alone LC as a civvie. It's obvious to anyone who reads the thread that I've been doing my fair share of discussion and encouraging discussion. On top of that, even going so far as to refer to low posters as categorically useless.

So, LC gets my vote.[/quote]

DH, you never responded to BR's post regarding your characterizations of LC as "false". Would you like to respond to that?

I thought the same as you, but after he clarified, I personally was relatively satisfied with his answer.

Why were you not?

Additionally, I find it very odd BR was killed last night, considering what she said. Frame up, possibly... I wasn't sure how I was feeling about you earlier, but your self-proclaimed D1 gambit and your behavior thus far has me worried.

Well, if you look at what everyone else is doing, they're picking at outliers: too early of a vote, too talkative, too aggressive, not posting enough. So... just saying.

Not me. My vote for you was largely based on the Goldilocks approach.

Remind me again what the options were?

I have found MM rather shifty, particularly his questions of Llama that seemed to be setting Llama up.

I also am wary of DH, but I've never been able to read him.

I was looking for a reaction from SVS. The question was not shifty, nor was I trying to set llama up.

That may be, but as I don't have time to analyze this DH/LC stuff, I'll still vote you because it cricked my brow.

This bothers me. After playing with you last game and seeing your logic (and I know you were a baddie, but an independent one and was trying to look like a civvie by catching baddies), the fact that you're voting MM (I now remember) based on something like that, doesn't sit well with me

Agreed.

Why the hell did no one else pursue this?

I asked first, I assumed it wouldn't but was pleasantly surprised to find out otherwise... Regardless I have a plan if Epig trys to flip that script anyways....

Also my vote for Boomslang was forced for today [day 2] not yesterday [day 1], proof of that being I forgot to vote yesterday anyways.

Now to DH. DH, DH, DH, SMFH DH...
If we're playing vague mind games, I know what you're doing, and so will MP, hell even dana would know what you are doing . The only question left is if you're doing it on purpose and assuming i'd forgotten or if you doing it out of habit.
The third option of course being that you know what I'm thinking right now, but you know there's no way i'd buy that double speak even if it were true.

lezzz go homie, i gotcha playbook.

Also Elo, when you post your last for the night so I can know if i need to save or post, or wrap up.

Linki: There's seven secret Llama.

DH is definitely playing the mind games, I just can't decide what it means re: his intentions.

I do think he makes an easy target... but for good reason.

Can you summarize why you feel so confident that he's bad? I'm just having trouble figuring it out.

Thanks zeek.

I was considering a boomslang vote today but what with events I am less sure. Also Logan still has me worried. I will reread DH I think before I make up my mind on him.

Snowy, can you tell me why Llama has you worried?

Hey, yo guys, so uh my vote was forced so I'm just gonna get that out of the way now.

Voting Boomslang.

I'm not going to post the exact message, so that way we can have a sort of key to prove when someone is telling the truth, and someone is lying about being vote forced.

So next time someone claims votes force i'll ask for like the 5th or 3rd word in the message and if they match up, they're clear.

Thoughts?

I don't believe you. I think you are bad
Let's analyze this for a moment:
I do not believe for a second Epig would allow someone to say their vote is forced. Made is not new anymore and should know this is generally frowned upon. Here's where the logic breaks down for me:
1) You say you won't post the exact message so you can use it as a key to see if people are lying about forced votes. You cannot copy and paste host PMs, anyway. that is a standard rule of mafia since the dawn of time.
2) And then, we're supposed to just believe you about the coded message? Why?
3) And I'm supposed to believe that Epig would let the integrity of a role die like this?

None of this adds up to me. Welcome to the suspicion list.

Boomslang, who do you advocate for lynching?

Why would a baddie do any of this though?

Civvies can lie, yes?

I find myself wanting the answers to these questions:

Rest in peace BR, sad to see you go so early

By the way, Is this non-committal relatively quiet behaviour from TH something you expect from him as a civ? Because in all the games that I've played with him and he was a civ (which isn't many), he was more involved.

Yes, my play so far is normal for me. It's Day 2 and I'm in the middle of the pack, post-wise. Once things get going I tend to climb toward the top of the posters list. I wouldn't call me style non-committal... what do you think I've been noncommittal about? And do you think non-committalness is baddie behavior?

Here's a question for the Made voters... what do you think he has to gain from lying? What kind of ploy could this possibly be? He's either telling the truth or lying for no good reason... It doesn't make sense for Made to lie any more than it makes sense that he's telling the truth. As for pulling Epi's hosting decisions into the equation... how can you assume what Epi will or won't allow a player to say? I remember in X-Men there was a big kerfuffle about an info-dump. A player was outed but it also ended up backfiring on the civs somewhat. Epi played it cool and didn't interfere. So I don't see any precedent for assuming Epi would interfere with what a player says in the game. And so I have no reason to question Made's authenticity in this matter.

As for DH's big Day 1 move, I don't know if I believe it, but I believe that DH believes it. In any case I'm still not getting baddie vibes from DH even though he's been a bit all over the place.

*tags Lizzy*

Hey Llama, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

I've made my decision. I think Made is a liar and I'm very happy with my vote. Nothing else jumps out at present except that it is time for me to go drinking.

Llama, you appreciate logic. Please, walk me through the logic of Made lying about this. Let's start inside his baddie brain, from the time this scheme was formed, can you present a cohesive scenario where it makes sense for him to be lying? What is he gaining from this ordeal other than your vote?

Because I think they raise legitimate questions that I have also been wondering.

[juliets]

Daisy, Snape has potions that we are not privy to so in answer to your question there is a possibility Made's behavior comes from a potion, though I really doubt that is the case.

MP, lots to think about. I had forgotten about TH's post regarding the questions about why made would do something like say he was forced when he wasn't, i.e., how would that help him. I would also like to know the logic in the answers to those questions.

[Dom]

What makes you think you and DH know each other so well? Why do you know each other better than most players know each others' games? You're a relatively new player and DH is a veteran. I am wondering where you get this knowledge and apparent insight into DH's game-- something that someone who has played with him for several years (me) does not have.

Irc as well as multiple games of Board games online, resistance, and party mafia. It's one thing to understand someone's play in one context, but when you can find threads between multiple situations, the only constant being the same player, you learn things. This is especially true when they don't know you're watching so closely.

going to the mall, might be able to check in everyone once in a while, but nothing substantial.
pass back to elo.

In response to this: Thank you. I'll echo Juliets' sentiments for specificity, but this made me feel better about that.

Okay, I have some things to say for sure. I've been waiting for Daisy to post.

So now that she has...

My suspicions have changed up a bit now that I've had time to read through everything properly AND given the way the lynch went down AND given the fact that most of the thread's posts I just read for the first time.

My biggest suspects at the moment are Llama, Dom, DFaraday, and DH, in that order, descending. I don't feel that strongly about DH, however, as I keep going back and forth on him. I'm not really sure what I think about LC anymore. I also still do not think rey or Boomslang are bad, but I wouldn't say I'm sure they are civilian.

In short, the reasons I suspect those players are as follows:
1. I suspect all three of Llama, Dom, and DH for their Made votes today. I don't understand why a baddie Made would do this, and although I entertain the possibility, their closed-mindedness and early votes for him really strike me as opportunistic.
2. All four of them, but particularly Llama and Dom, appear to be suspecting players for odd reasons (they disagree with their logic, don't understand their POV, etc., all classic logical fallacies). DFaraday's vote for MM yesterday was especially shifty.
3. I think Dom's aggression against Boomslang, as well as Llama's against Rox, and DH's against LC, seem unnecessarily strong-willed and I am not necessarily convinced all three of these cases are truly believed. I had moments where I considered the possibility of these arguments to be contrived.

Call it gut, but they are the four whose intentions I'm currently most questioning.

Woah, first off, I have not voted for Made and I don't think you realize that I haven't. If I voted right now, I'd vote for Boomslang-- more on that later.
But I hope you can see I haven't voted for Made...

Excellent, game on. The Day 0 poll really doesn't give us much to go on compared to previous games, but those who failed to check in are certainly the outliers here.

Does being an outlier make them bad?

My reasoning is that, if the majority of players are civvies, then the majority/average action taken is most likely to be civvie. It's not perfect, but it's playing the odds.

I think I will be voting you...

That makes zero sense. By the same logic, you can assume that most non-actions are civilian because most players are civilian. Your logic has several flaws in it. You are assuming civilians and baddies act in the same way. They do not. Civvies are far more likely to be inactive because they do not have BTSC members to prod them to participate.

Dom, can you explain to me why Boomslang's logic, which you clearly find flawed, makes him bad?

Because I'm not seeing it.[/quote]
Because I have tried pointing out how this logic makes no sense (INH did so, humorously, as well), and Boom has not backed off this stance or acknowledged my criticisms in a tangible manner. It's the best I've noticed and understood and felt comfortable with so far.
I don't understand the DH case fully nor do I feel comfortable judging DH on my own. In addition, I think Llama was, indeed, trolling Roxy, but I am not sure that makes Llama bad. So, right now, I am most suspicious of Boomslang.

Hey, yo guys, so uh my vote was forced so I'm just gonna get that out of the way now.

Voting Boomslang.

I'm not going to post the exact message, so that way we can have a sort of key to prove when someone is telling the truth, and someone is lying about being vote forced.

So next time someone claims votes force i'll ask for like the 5th or 3rd word in the message and if they match up, they're clear.

Thoughts?

I don't believe you. I think you are bad
Let's analyze this for a moment:
I do not believe for a second Epig would allow someone to say their vote is forced. Made is not new anymore and should know this is generally frowned upon. Here's where the logic breaks down for me:
1) You say you won't post the exact message so you can use it as a key to see if people are lying about forced votes. You cannot copy and paste host PMs, anyway. that is a standard rule of mafia since the dawn of time.
2) And then, we're supposed to just believe you about the coded message? Why?
3) And I'm supposed to believe that Epig would let the integrity of a role die like this?

None of this adds up to me. Welcome to the suspicion list.

Boomslang, who do you advocate for lynching?

Why would a baddie do any of this though?

Civvies can lie, yes?

I find myself wanting the answers to these questions[/quote]
A baddie would eliminate themselves as a member of that team, would they not?
Epi did not allow me to say my votes were forced in Zelda (I was going to after the phases, but I was not allowed to). If Made is meticulous as SVS says he is about asking questions about the rules, then would he not ask this question? It just seems to be an inconsistency that requires investigating. I don't know why you think that's weird. Do I find him suspicious for that? Yeah. I do.

I hope I adequetly addressed your concerns, MP
.

Your turn, Juliets

[juliets]

Dom, what does this statement mean:

"A baddie would eliminate themselves as a member of that team, would they not?"

I may just be reading it wrong and not getting the meaning so could you treat me like I'm 3 and explain what you meant?

[Dom]

Dom, what does this statement mean:

"A baddie would eliminate themselves as a member of that team, would they not?"

I may just be reading it wrong and not getting the meaning so could you treat me like I'm 3 and explain what you meant?

lol <3

I mean, if a person said that they were forced to vote for someone-- then they are very very likely not on the team with the vote forcer, right?

[juliets]

Thank you Dom, I just didn't read it right. And yes, it does make it seem like he is not on that team.

My head is all over the place on who to vote for tomorrow. I hope Made comes on soon and addresses some of these things that have been asked (well, at least what I have asked). I don't see any reason why he would say he was forced when he wasn't but on the other hand, the stuff about how he knows DH's game just strikes me as a stretch. So, I'm waiting for an answer.

[reywaS]

hmm.

You going to be around tonight, pardner? I need to get caught up in the game but I don't want to have to do it in one giant post, lol.

I'm sorry. Yes, I'll be around for a little while.

[thellama73]

EVen for MP, that is a long, long post.

[Turnip Head]

My post addressed to you wasn't very long Llama, but you must have ignored it all the same.

[timmer]

hmm.

You going to be around tonight, pardner? I need to get caught up in the game but I don't want to have to do it in one giant post, lol.

I'm sorry. Yes, I'll be around for a little while.

Alas, I saw this too late, and now I must head to bed.

[Snow Dog]

MP. Logan worries me because of his earlier claim about his playstyle. Something about he only jokes around when civ and is more serious when baddie. I really don't think this is true but maybe you know better?

Anyway I found the post

Just a thought-- do players conform to their own play style benefit themselves further when they are mafia or just because of predisposition?
Not directed at you in particular Juliet, but also Llama and MP, 3 players who have very unique and recognizable play styles.

Speaking for myself, I think I conform to my own playstyle more when I civilian, whereas when I am bad I am more careful not to come across as suspicious. Having a team that I don't want to let down makes me a more conscientious, and therefore less freewheeling and prone to random antics, sort of player.

[DharmaHelper]

Hey Bass

I am not so sure Made is lying, either. First off, having modded him a time or two, I know he asks EXTREME questions on the rules before he does anything. Boddys role does not specify that his target may not be revealed. The rules do not say you cannot say you were targeted. And there are plenty of civ reasons a person may not want info about them revealed. Civs don't want targets drawn on their backs. If the hosts says "Player X is a female role" and you are on Bavmordas team, you can narrow down the role. I got targeted by Boddy in the original game (which Made played) and I came right out and said it (although I did not vote as he wanted, and he said my role was male, which is why I used that as my example).

And "vote for Boom" is a very plausible directive imo if Boddy assumed that the targeting would not be revealed. Boom was in close contention in yesterdays lynch, and he is still holding suspicion.

I feel horrible that I suspected Metalmarsh for, in part, his association to my mind with DH. I am going to vote DH now in case Bass is out partying for the weekend. DH is totally capable of believing he can WIFOM his way out of a BR kill (what did he say, "It's an obvious set up") by saying it's an obvious set up. He started his game by reaching into the DH Playbook and attempting to provoke either reywaS or I into a distracting hissy fit. Plus I don't totally get the case on Boom, and I don't see why Made would make this up. If Boddy really did target someone that person would know he was lying. And if Boddy self targeted, well, why not target someone off the team to force a vote? That seems a strange waste to me.

I have been at work, but wanted to get this said since I got tagged.

I am *Voting DH* and will finish catching up to today shortly. If there has been a revelation that DH is not bad, I can always change it.

So, you suspected MM for associating with me, And logically one could say you also suspected me at least in part for associating back with MM. Yet now that MM has been proven civvie, that does nothing to at least dull some of that suspicion on my end? Alrighty.

Also, if we're talking about past games, you should know I'm the very last person who would OK a kill that tied back to me, even in a WIFOM way. So your accusation there has no merit.

[Tangrowth]

Dom, I'm sorry. I must have had a brain malfunction. LOL. And thanks for addressing my concerns. I do feel better about you after that; I just suppose I don't see what you do in Boomslang. But I admit you could be onto something.

I don't want to wait for Daisy, so congrats to the previous five groups before this post. But seriously, I don't know how much I'll be around before poll's end, so that's why I want to make sure I post, even if this is a much smaller one.

MP. Logan worries me because of his earlier claim about his playstyle. Something about he only jokes around when civ and is more serious when baddie. I really don't think this is true but maybe you know better?

Anyway I found the post

Just a thought-- do players conform to their own play style benefit themselves further when they are mafia or just because of predisposition?
Not directed at you in particular Juliet, but also Llama and MP, 3 players who have very unique and recognizable play styles.

Speaking for myself, I think I conform to my own playstyle more when I civilian, whereas when I am bad I am more careful not to come across as suspicious. Having a team that I don't want to let down makes me a more conscientious, and therefore less freewheeling and prone to random antics, sort of player.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I do think he tends to indulge in gambits more when he is a civvie, but that doesn't mean, as a baddie, that he would specifically try to act like that -- something he's tried before.

My post addressed to you wasn't very long Llama, but you must have ignored it all the same.

This.

Votes Llama.

I don't understand why a civvie Llama would ignore these arguments against him. I also don't understand why he trolled Roxy, why he ignored my points against him as well, why he argued against throwing votes away but threw his vote away on Made for suspect reasons, etc.

[FZ.]

Sorry for not being here Roxy.

TH, I'm feeling a whole lot better about you. I meant non committal as bad because I couldn't see how you stuck to one thing LC said and then nothing even remotely made you hesitate. It was like you found something and you wouldn't budge because you had something you could use. But this day, you're seeming a lot more like the civ I expect you to be. Not going to call you a civ yet, but you've moved out of my list for now.

The people I'm most suspicious as of now, are Dom, DF and INH, but his absence makes me want to wait.
The whole Boomslang thing that Dom keeps bringing up is just something I don't get. The fact that someone isn't logic enough, or continues to not see your own logic, does not make him bad. Then, like I said before, I still don't see how what Made has done makes sense as a baddie. It's a silly tactic as a baddie. Wouldn't any of his team mates tell him it's silly? So Dom's case on him is another thing I don't like about Dom.

DF- after last day, which made me feel worried about him, he's not done anything to improve my feelings about him.

Then there's llama. He has his own logic, but I feel like he's choosing to ignore all other logic. Usually, he addresses it and then proceed with his choice. Still, I have been blamed for not answering people's questions as a civ many times. Sometimes, it's because you're a civ, that you don't care as much how you're perceived, so you just ignore things that you wouldn't as a baddie.

[Russtifinko]

Uh, crap, sorry DF. Hope you haven't had burning thoughts to express.

The case on Made looks good to me. In fact it kinda reminds me of INH's play at the beginning of last year's Champions game. Very outlandish claims to gain some type of advantage. I wouldn't be surprised if Made were an indy trying to gain influence, like INH was. (Obviously not the same way though.)

[Bass_the_Clever]

Sorry S~V~S but this will probably be my only post tonight because I'm going to a birthday party for my uncle and staying over there. With that being said, I will go ahead and vote now as well.

I'm voting The LLama because he seems to be avoiding questions or just ignoring them like Roxy's and Mp's.
Usually he answer peoples questions so it just seems off to me.