The Syndicate 2014 Game of Champions [ENDGAME]

#1101

svs - not gonna lie - I don't really have much but "what he said." I've got reservations about voting both DH and boom. Feels like I should be more confident Day 3 than I am feeling and that worries me.

omg! so much linki!!!

#1102

MovingPictures07 wrote:
FZ. wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:If someone can correct me re: Boomslang, I'm all ears. But frankly, while I have no idea what his alignment is, he has consistently read genuine to me and I do NOT get the suspicion on him at all.

The only things that have made me nervous about Boomslang are a lack of suspects/baddie hunting and his ignoring of answering certain questions/posts occasionally.
I agree.
MP, you said earlier in the game that you trust Rey, right? Or was it Russ? Has any of that changed?
I get that Rey is manipulated somehow, but he can do what he's doing now for posts of people he thinks are bad. I mean there's a way to baddie hunt even in that situation, and I don't see him doing so. All he's doing is posting replies to things that concern him
It was rey, yeah. Really it's just because all of the posts he has made have come across as genuine to me.

That said, I was looking VERY much forward to hearing what he had to say today, especially re: suspects.

I understand what you're saying, but if in his position why not just wait until the curse is over? How much can you really say about someone? And we don't know what his curse stipulations say.

Not defending him, but I don't see anything wrong with giving him until N3 or D4 to see what he thinks.

Do you suspect him?

And I have no opinion of Russ, though I really want to hear from him. Especially since he voted for me N2 for the wand but didn't really explain it.

I don't know. When things like that happen to me, I can't wait to voice my thoughts, and I try to convey them any way possible, so when someone just does what he's doing, it strikes me as weird. I don't plan to vote for him yet, but it's an easy way to get out of having to contribute. I don't remember anything substantial from him all game. Was there anything you remember?

#1103

And LOL to Russ showing up exactly after we were discussing him. We should have talked about a million dollars

#1104

FZ. wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
FZ. wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:If someone can correct me re: Boomslang, I'm all ears. But frankly, while I have no idea what his alignment is, he has consistently read genuine to me and I do NOT get the suspicion on him at all.

The only things that have made me nervous about Boomslang are a lack of suspects/baddie hunting and his ignoring of answering certain questions/posts occasionally.
I agree.
MP, you said earlier in the game that you trust Rey, right? Or was it Russ? Has any of that changed?
I get that Rey is manipulated somehow, but he can do what he's doing now for posts of people he thinks are bad. I mean there's a way to baddie hunt even in that situation, and I don't see him doing so. All he's doing is posting replies to things that concern him
It was rey, yeah. Really it's just because all of the posts he has made have come across as genuine to me.

That said, I was looking VERY much forward to hearing what he had to say today, especially re: suspects.

I understand what you're saying, but if in his position why not just wait until the curse is over? How much can you really say about someone? And we don't know what his curse stipulations say.

Not defending him, but I don't see anything wrong with giving him until N3 or D4 to see what he thinks.

Do you suspect him?

And I have no opinion of Russ, though I really want to hear from him. Especially since he voted for me N2 for the wand but didn't really explain it.
I don't know. When things like that happen to me, I can't wait to voice my thoughts, and I try to convey them any way possible, so when someone just does what he's doing, it strikes me as weird. I don't plan to vote for him yet, but it's an easy way to get out of having to contribute. I don't remember anything substantial from him all game. Was there anything you remember?

I would consider myself similar to you in that regard, but posting curses are annoying. Additionally, I wouldn't say this is atypical of rey regardless of alignment, particularly early in the game.

What is most notable about rey is his back and forth with LC.

#1105

I don't remember. What was the back and forth between them?

#1106

I am going ahead and voting DF. I still feel queasy about boomslang but MP brings up a good question: whats in it for him if he is bad.

With DF I think TH made a strong case and MP's add on's helped me make up my mind. My only concern is DF hasn't yet responded but if he does and I think it's a strong response I'll move my vote - somewhere, I'm just not sure where.

#1107

FZ. wrote:I don't remember. What was the back and forth between them?

It started with this vote from LC:

Long Con wrote:
reywaS wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Humorous antics are an often effective way to deflect suspicion in the early days of mafia games.
Can I assume since you responded with this 7 minutes after I voted for metalmarsh that this is directed at me? If it was directed at me, I must ask what makes it a humorous tactic? Why is it a humorous tactic as opposed to any legitimate attempt at playing the game?
I didn't read DH as specifically targeting you with that statement. You seem to me to be jumping to the defensive pretty quickly... especially since I didn't find your vote for MM particularly humourous or... antical?

Anyways, that made you my best choice for a Day One vote. *votes reywaS*

Essentially, LC thought rey was unnecessarily defensive, something I personally would argue is relatively characteristic of rey's game.

#1108

I'm going to switch my vote to DF. Neither case (against him or Boom) is vey strong, and I'm willing to wait to vote LC tomorrow, but DF's posts, as pointed out by TH, are indeed a bit contradictory in the early game, and I think that slightly outweighs Boomslang's.

Either way, I'm not horribly confident about either one, but I like them better than a DH lynch at this time.

Linki with Juliets: same thoughts here.

#1109

One hour to go, and there are only 8 votes. Are that many people just busy, or is it that one of our lynch targets is bad and their teamies aren't sure how to proceed?

#1110

I will vote DF now as well. I was waiting to hear what everyone else had to say, but I can't see my mind changing. If it does, I can always move my vote, but I feel best about voting him for now. I am a bit nervous now... especially since a lynch train appears to be forming, but nonetheless I think both his D1 and D2 votes were opportunistic, that his continued suspicion of Made for acting "weird" seems like a way to continue an unwarranted suspicion, and that the contradictions TH illustrated were insightful.

votes DFaraday

#1111

timmer wrote:One hour to go, and there are only 8 votes. Are that many people just busy, or is it that one of our lynch targets is bad and their teamies aren't sure how to proceed?

That's a good question, timmer. I was wondering about the lack of votes myself, but hadn't thought of that explanation. It's possible.

#1112

Oh, and Snow Dog, no that's not a picture of me LOL I wish, that's Xavier Dolan, French Canadian filmmaker extraordinaire! He made my #1 film of 2014 - Mommy, I highly recommend watching it when you can!

#1113

I'm not sure why I'm getting all the credit for the DF case, Roxy said basically the same things as I did a few pages earlier. It was her and MP that made me look at DF in the first place. Maybe my case was just better organized

#1114

yea- I'm here but I've been holding on to my vote hoping to hear from DF.

There's still about an hour. I guess I can vote here and change it if he is convincing later in the lynch. Not like I'm going far from the computer today...

#1115

MovingPictures07 wrote:
FZ. wrote:I don't remember. What was the back and forth between them?
It started with this vote from LC:

Long Con wrote:
reywaS wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:Humorous antics are an often effective way to deflect suspicion in the early days of mafia games.
Can I assume since you responded with this 7 minutes after I voted for metalmarsh that this is directed at me? If it was directed at me, I must ask what makes it a humorous tactic? Why is it a humorous tactic as opposed to any legitimate attempt at playing the game?
I didn't read DH as specifically targeting you with that statement. You seem to me to be jumping to the defensive pretty quickly... especially since I didn't find your vote for MM particularly humourous or... antical?

Anyways, that made you my best choice for a Day One vote. *votes reywaS*
Essentially, LC thought rey was unnecessarily defensive, something I personally would argue is relatively characteristic of rey's game.

Oh yeah! stupid me, that was the reason I started suspecting him in the first place.

I guess I'll join the DF vote, though there's a part of me still hesitating. Do you think DF is the kind of person who would be bummed at being a baddie twice in a row?

linki: Pfft, I voted for DF on day 1....(now if he flips civ I'm going to look very stupid after saying that

)

#1116

Turnip Head wrote:I'm not sure why I'm getting all the credit for the DF case, Roxy said basically the same things as I did a few pages earlier. It was her and MP that made me look at DF in the first place. Maybe my case was just better organized

This reminds me of something I meant to say earlier. I had noticed a few people mentioning that they thought Roxy was being defensive and pingy. I personally haven't seen that, but if anyone sees something glaring, please link me to it? Thanks.

#1117

TH, it's just your organization of it.

Rox did have some good things to say re: DF too, that's right.

timmer wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I'm not sure why I'm getting all the credit for the DF case, Roxy said basically the same things as I did a few pages earlier. It was her and MP that made me look at DF in the first place. Maybe my case was just better organized
This reminds me of something I meant to say earlier. I had noticed a few people mentioning that they thought Roxy was being defensive and pingy. I personally haven't seen that, but if anyone sees something glaring, please link me to it? Thanks.

I thought only Llama said that, but I could be wrong. I haven't thought she has been either.

#1118

I do think the case against DF is a good one. *Votes*

zeek - I am so happy for your wonderful news! Nothing better than finding true love - congratulations!! <3
I don't understand why you say I am being defensive when no one as far as I have seen has accused me or suspected me. I was merely giving my opinion about why people were being close minded and limiting their choices to merely llama voters. Why not look at MM voters too? So if thats defensive ok.
I am however not really feeling you this game. You seem to be making yourself a presence in the game but you do not seem the same as you were in Dr Who. I cannot put a finger on it but my nose has been twitched.

Bass - I know you have had time to play but have not and I also know you are getting ready to help family out and will be afk for several days - if you are still around I am going to be watching as since the tag team event you pinged me. You did the same thing Timmer and Rey did but no one has said anything about it - well I am.

My eye, as ever, is on you.

Timmer I am unsure about just yet.

TH feels civ as does Bea.

#1119

rox - good point about bass. I remember someone else mentioning him on sunday (RL day ) but that day was VERY beer infused and I can't remember who it was.

#1120

bea wrote:rox - good point about bass. I remember someone else mentioning him on sunday (RL day ) but that day was VERY beer infused and I can't remember who it was.

It was me.

Of the stuff being bandied about, I feel most comfortable placing a vote on Boom, so there it is.

I will try to get back to a more active state soon. Again, sorry.

#1121

I would have liked Bass to be around more for me Day 2. But since I was busy, too, I was OK with it. I got the feeling that had it been someone other than me, he might have been around less. So not sure what I think of that.

#1122

DH mentioned Bass. I would definitely like to hear from Bass as well.

Linki

#1123

MovingPictures07 wrote:Dom, I know I commented earlier, but since you asked: I still don't really see anything in the timmer and rey suspicion. The fact that Blooper thinks it has "merit" is odd to me and something I hope she can clarify on.

I read Dom's thoughts and thought that he had a point. As I said, I expected more to come out of their back and forth on tag team day, but got nothing, and Dom pointed it out. What would you like clarified, good sir? For the record, I'm not inclined to vote either of them today based on this point; it's not a huge suspicion, but just something to look at and take into account.

Turnip Head wrote: In fact, I feel much more compelled to look at the Made voters than the Llama voters. Some people probably truly believed Made was lying, but I think others were aware that they could hop on that bandwagon without looking too suspicious. Made clearly made waves on Day 2 and I can see the baddies in their chatrooms salivating at the opportunity for an easy lynch.

This is a good point, although I think baddies are in both groups. I think I mentioned before in my response to bea that that whole lynch scenario looked like a great opportunity for the baddies to latch on to two of our strangest (and I mean that in an excellent way) and most outspoken players and hide behind the "well, they were acting weird" excuse.

I am also glad to see others share a suspicion of LC. I also haven't been able to shake my feelings about him since Day 1, and my gut feelings have tended to be right. However, people also make a good point that he's been quiet and possibly silenced today. This is frustrating.

I don't feel a Boomslang vote (he seems genuine to me, but I can't really explain why. Just gut feelings). I still don't think DH is bad, so I won't vote there (but I hope I'm not fooling myself). I see lots are voting for DF, and TH and others make interesting points about him, plus he was one to vote for both MM and Made. Possibility, but I don't feel particularly strongly about him aside from what's being said and not my own personal feelings. Gahhhhh. I might be in bad form/mafia etiquette today, but I'm going with my convictions and voting LC. Never know what's actually happening behind the scenes.

zeek, I actually squealed out loud when I read your news - congratulations!!

#1124

Sorry everyone I have been really busy in RL getting ready to go back to school and haven't had time to catch up as much as I would like.

#1125

Isn't it weird that this whole game the votes have not been very spread?

#1126

Blooper, that's sufficient, thanks. I just wasn't sure how strongly you felt about the timmer/rey connection and was hoping you could provide your thought process.

#1127

FZ. wrote:Isn't it weird that this whole game the votes have not been very spread?

It has.

What do you think that means?

#1128

Bass_the_Clever wrote:Sorry everyone I have been really busy in RL getting ready to go back to school and haven't had time to catch up as much as I would like.

Interesting... did Roxy tell you to check in, or could you hear us talking about you, or what

#1129

Turnip Head wrote:
Bass_the_Clever wrote:Sorry everyone I have been really busy in RL getting ready to go back to school and haven't had time to catch up as much as I would like.
Interesting... did Roxy tell you to check in, or could you hear us talking about you, or what

Roxy has been hogging the laptop. lol

#1130

I going to go ahead and vote Df because of the people with the most votes I find his post to be the ones that I find the most odd. I feel like in most his post he seems to be trying to fly under the radar with trying to stay out of conflict.

#1131

MovingPictures07 wrote:
FZ. wrote:Isn't it weird that this whole game the votes have not been very spread?
It has.

What do you think that means?

makes me worried. Maybe it's easy for the baddies to join because we keep going after civvies.

#1132

I am on page 16 of my read through, I obviously will not get it finished in time. I want to address the DF suspicion. Honestly, DF always reads as a disengaged player to me, which everything TH pointed out reads exactly that way to me. Someone who is not taking the time to adequately understand the cases and is rushing into his decisions. I won't be voting DF, I don't see reason enough right now. My read through has just reinforced my feelings about DH. His stuff just really reads underhanded. My other suspect, though less so, is LC. His original vote for Rey pinged me more on the second read than the first time through, but his subsequent back and forth with DH made me feel less suspicious of him, so I'm kind of on the fence. I will be voting DH today.

#1133

FZ. wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
FZ. wrote:Isn't it weird that this whole game the votes have not been very spread?
I agree FZ - I'm more than a little worried about this vote. DF is always a pretty low key player. I'm nervous *and* I don't have a very viable candidate to replace him with.

It has.

What do you think that means?
makes me worried. Maybe it's easy for the baddies to join because we keep going after civvies.

#1134

Spacedaisy wrote:I am on page 16 of my read through, I obviously will not get it finished in time. I want to address the DF suspicion. Honestly, DF always reads as a disengaged player to me, which everything TH pointed out reads exactly that way to me. Someone who is not taking the time to adequately understand the cases and is rushing into his decisions. I won't be voting DF, I don't see reason enough right now. My read through has just reinforced my feelings about DH. His stuff just really reads underhanded. My other suspect, though less so, is LC. His original vote for Rey pinged me more on the second read than the first time through, but his subsequent back and forth with DH made me feel less suspicious of him, so I'm kind of on the fence. I will be voting DH today.

I'm sorry you have bad feelings about me, and you think I'm being underhanded.

#1135

Wherefore art thou, Faraday

I was hoping we'd get to hear from him :-/

#1136

wth? I swear I typed things after that quote.

What I was saying is that yes. I'm worried *and* I don't have anyone else to offer up in his place. Which is just as worrying to me.

linki - me too TH. Me too.

#1137

So with said, do we still leave the vote on him?

#1138

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Russtifinko wrote:Congrats, zeek! That's amazing news!

I want everyone to know I survived the Birthday Curse. Mostly because there wasn't a lynch or NK yesterday, but I still feel like I dodged a bullet.

Sorry all, I have been more occupied lately than I anticipated. The poll time is also proving tough, since I work 8-5 and then have to Skype my girlfriend before she goes to sleep. So I'm mostly logging on just around when things are ending.

Anyway, I'll try catching up as much as I can over the next few days. I've been able to read about a page at a time, but you're all posting about 5 :P.

As far as thoughts for now, I'm leaning Boomslang. It looks to me like zeek (I think?) cleared Made, and I'm inclined to give DH a bit more time to be DH before I decide on him. Boomslang has been known to be rightly lynched early, iirc. (At the very least he's done it once, in MOTU.) He also wanted to lynch non-participants Day 1, which is always a major potential baddie move in my book.

However, I admit to ignorance of what the case on DF is. So if someone could be so kind as to enlighten me before the poll ends I'll consider that as well when I log back on from Skyping.

*placeholder (and potentially final vote) for Boomslang*

Linki: Gaah let me post!
That's interesting...

You know Boomslang RL like I do, why did you vote for him? You said he wanted to lynch non-participants D1, is that the only reason?

The case on DF... TH had some really well illustrated points, and I've been saying for a while that his D1 vote for MM smelled opportunistic, and his refusal to comment on either LC or DH even though he previously said he was wary of DH seemed odd to me.

Well there's that and his lack of baddie hunting (though heck, you could accuse me or any number of other people of that). There's also refusal to answer questions, but right before my post you posted that you didn't think refusal to answer questions was suspicious so I left it out. :P

I agree with timmer that it's not a super strong Day 3 case, but none of the others I've seen are any better. Now, allow me to play Devil's Advocate on your DF case. You said in Boomslang's case that not answering (timmer's?) questions wasn't suspicious, but DF not answering questions about DH or LC is. That seems like a double standard to me. Especially if you asked him in one of your larger posts, because I know I've missed questions from you in big posts before and that I'm not the only one.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Additionally, DF's suspicion of Made struck as equally opportunistic, and his most recent sentiment is that Made is still a suspect for acting "weird" even though he says he's less suspicious.

You've said opportunistic twice, but could you elucidate what you mean by that a little more? To me, slowly backing off of Made is just good mafia. I learned the hard way in Zelda that if you flip-flop too fast on people, no one will trust you and you'll lose. So I don't find that weird.

None of this to say that you're wrong about DF, just that the case on him seems no stronger than the one on Boomslang to me.

I would be interested to see the specifics of the opportunism you're alleging, though.

#1139

There isn't even a contest between two players

#1140

FZ. - DO you have a better candidate in mind? I'm up for crazy, eleventh-hour pre-lynch shenanigans.

#1141

I also think Snow Dog is flying under the radar. This is no where near how he played in Cars. What's people opinion on him?

#1142

I didn't play Cars but he feels like normal Snowy to me. Always a bit under the radar but he always offers his own opinions.

#1143

Also, like I said a few times, I think baddies would rather vote early than late (and change later if necessary), to not look like they are bandwagoning.

linki: hmm. Then I have no idea.

#1144

Did I miss Bloop explaining her vote for LC?

#1145

#1146

She posted this 45 minutes ago.

nijuukyugou wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Dom, I know I commented earlier, but since you asked: I still don't really see anything in the timmer and rey suspicion. The fact that Blooper thinks it has "merit" is odd to me and something I hope she can clarify on.
I read Dom's thoughts and thought that he had a point. As I said, I expected more to come out of their back and forth on tag team day, but got nothing, and Dom pointed it out. What would you like clarified, good sir? For the record, I'm not inclined to vote either of them today based on this point; it's not a huge suspicion, but just something to look at and take into account.

Turnip Head wrote: In fact, I feel much more compelled to look at the Made voters than the Llama voters. Some people probably truly believed Made was lying, but I think others were aware that they could hop on that bandwagon without looking too suspicious. Made clearly made waves on Day 2 and I can see the baddies in their chatrooms salivating at the opportunity for an easy lynch.
This is a good point, although I think baddies are in both groups. I think I mentioned before in my response to bea that that whole lynch scenario looked like a great opportunity for the baddies to latch on to two of our strangest (and I mean that in an excellent way) and most outspoken players and hide behind the "well, they were acting weird" excuse.

I am also glad to see others share a suspicion of LC. I also haven't been able to shake my feelings about him since Day 1, and my gut feelings have tended to be right. However, people also make a good point that he's been quiet and possibly silenced today. This is frustrating.

I don't feel a Boomslang vote (he seems genuine to me, but I can't really explain why. Just gut feelings). I still don't think DH is bad, so I won't vote there (but I hope I'm not fooling myself). I see lots are voting for DF, and TH and others make interesting points about him, plus he was one to vote for both MM and Made. Possibility, but I don't feel particularly strongly about him aside from what's being said and not my own personal feelings. Gahhhhh. I might be in bad form/mafia etiquette today, but I'm going with my convictions and voting LC. Never know what's actually happening behind the scenes.

zeek, I actually squealed out loud when I read your news - congratulations!!

#1147

Russtifinko wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Russtifinko wrote:Congrats, zeek! That's amazing news!

I want everyone to know I survived the Birthday Curse. Mostly because there wasn't a lynch or NK yesterday, but I still feel like I dodged a bullet.

Sorry all, I have been more occupied lately than I anticipated. The poll time is also proving tough, since I work 8-5 and then have to Skype my girlfriend before she goes to sleep. So I'm mostly logging on just around when things are ending.

Anyway, I'll try catching up as much as I can over the next few days. I've been able to read about a page at a time, but you're all posting about 5 :P.

As far as thoughts for now, I'm leaning Boomslang. It looks to me like zeek (I think?) cleared Made, and I'm inclined to give DH a bit more time to be DH before I decide on him. Boomslang has been known to be rightly lynched early, iirc. (At the very least he's done it once, in MOTU.) He also wanted to lynch non-participants Day 1, which is always a major potential baddie move in my book.

However, I admit to ignorance of what the case on DF is. So if someone could be so kind as to enlighten me before the poll ends I'll consider that as well when I log back on from Skyping.

*placeholder (and potentially final vote) for Boomslang*

Linki: Gaah let me post!
That's interesting...

You know Boomslang RL like I do, why did you vote for him? You said he wanted to lynch non-participants D1, is that the only reason?

The case on DF... TH had some really well illustrated points, and I've been saying for a while that his D1 vote for MM smelled opportunistic, and his refusal to comment on either LC or DH even though he previously said he was wary of DH seemed odd to me.
Well there's that and his lack of baddie hunting (though heck, you could accuse me or any number of other people of that). There's also refusal to answer questions, but right before my post you posted that you didn't think refusal to answer questions was suspicious so I left it out. :P

I agree with timmer that it's not a super strong Day 3 case, but none of the others I've seen are any better. Now, allow me to play Devil's Advocate on your DF case. You said in Boomslang's case that not answering (timmer's?) questions wasn't suspicious, but DF not answering questions about DH or LC is. That seems like a double standard to me. Especially if you asked him in one of your larger posts, because I know I've missed questions from you in big posts before and that I'm not the only one.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Additionally, DF's suspicion of Made struck as equally opportunistic, and his most recent sentiment is that Made is still a suspect for acting "weird" even though he says he's less suspicious.
You've said opportunistic twice, but could you elucidate what you mean by that a little more? To me, slowly backing off of Made is just good mafia. I learned the hard way in Zelda that if you flip-flop too fast on people, no one will trust you and you'll lose. So I don't find that weird.

None of this to say that you're wrong about DF, just that the case on him seems no stronger than the one on Boomslang to me.

I would be interested to see the specifics of the opportunism you're alleging, though.

But I did say that Boomslang's not answering questions concerned me.

MovingPictures07 wrote:If someone can correct me re: Boomslang, I'm all ears. But frankly, while I have no idea what his alignment is, he has consistently read genuine to me and I do NOT get the suspicion on him at all.

The only things that have made me nervous about Boomslang are a lack of suspects/baddie hunting and his ignoring of answering certain questions/posts occasionally.

I've said opportunistic because it really seemed like DF was drumming up a reason to vote for MM.

I don't understand. What's flip flopping about Made? DF said he thought Made was lying. But it's been shown that Made was NOT lying.

Who cares what's good mafia? You should post exactly what you mean. As a civilian, what do you have to lose?

If the case on DF is "no stronger", then is it weaker? I don't understand your wording here.

Your post really confounds me. I'm pinged by it.

In addition, why did I deserve the wand?

#1148

S~V~S wrote:I would have liked Bass to be around more for me Day 2. But since I was busy, too, I was OK with it. I got the feeling that had it been someone other than me, he might have been around less. So not sure what I think of that.

You are 100 % correct. lol

#1149

fz - snowy typically is misunderstood in games - he's like elo in that beginning of the games are rough on him. He has a hard time finding his footing. I've seen nothing super bad but nothing that makes me trust him just yet.

between linki and firefox not responding I'm about to scream lol.

#1150

Thanks for linking the post.
We have less than 10 minutes, and no idea. Looks like it will be DF. I can't say I feel confident about that lynch. I really hope we did good

linki: Thanks Bea

Who killed spacedaisy...I mean, of course you know. Should he die?