Severance [Evening Four]

[leetic]

But yeah, it's a shame the people coming over here have so little information. Then again, the players paying attention are less likely to be lynched

[Ranmilia]

Was he there at eod or no, and if no, what was the last time he checked the thread?

[TonyStarkPrime]

He seems somewhat disengaged and tbh I’m not sure how much help this will prove to be if any

[leetic]

Well, if that's a dead end, we still have @Porscha. Their alignment has been corroborated, even if they won't be able to tell us anything that happened after their death.

[leetic]

Although this thread still seems suspiciously quiet. @WindwardAway any reason why you're significantly less vocal this phase than you were in the last?

[leetic]

And @Dyslexicon is still slanking, I mean come on ma.

[leetic]

*man

The perils of misclicking and accidentally hitting submit on mobile

[Ranmilia]

So.

- With this many people corroborating each other I think there's no reason to doubt the general shape of the reported mech.

- Porscha is only a wolf if illario is too.
-- In the world where both of them are wolves, other-thread town is doing fantastic. So I'm not too concerned about that world.

- What on earth is illario doing dead day 2 though. That.. really is only possible if he was slanking/not playing actively. So. That checks out I guess.

[Ranmilia]

Although this thread still seems suspiciously quiet. @WindwardAway any reason why you're significantly less vocal this phase than you were in the last?

Not to answer for wind in specific, but it is the weekend and our long day 1 was pretty exhausting. Would be nice if folks were around more though but... I've said my piece and don't have much new, the ball is in Dizzy's and Bereft's and Rondo's respective courts. I've cooled on TSP some but still can't really understand his mindset... but now that he's channeling illario it's probably impractical to kill him today regardless.

[VOTE: Dizzy] aubergine

[leetic]

but now that he's channeling illario it's probably impractical to kill him today regardless.

I wouldn't really take that into consideration; besides if ilario isn't going to help us it doesn't matter either way.

[leetic]

And now over an hour with no posts. Has our momentum really died that much?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Reads*

oh.

I think they're pretty consensus takes, +/- pyxxy town gira scumlean. Not absurd but not hard to come up with, doesn't move the needle much for me.

Thank you wanna mason? Your my strongest town read

Certainly. What is the haps?

I think I posted a reads list a bit before this tell me if you agree I can quote it for you if you want

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Okay after catch up report card

Lawful Good: Ranmilia, DubzDimBuckle, WWA

Chaotic Good: Princess Abigail, Gira, Bereft, Leetic

True Neutral: Dizzy, TSP

Lawful Evil: Pyxxy

Chaotic Evil: Ted


Ordered within tiers

Leetic is dropping for me. Schweppes is rising.

Lawful Goods are locked in and I'm willing to bet the game on it.

Ran, WWA, Rondo want to mason?

Here for your viewing pleasure

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Do you know if Porscha still has vision of the other thread?

No but...I doubt it.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Although the problem with what Abby says is that it effectively confirms whoever gets a partner as town, and I'm not sure how balanced that is.

How?

If a wolf is killed in the other thread we do not know they are a wolf

You have no clue porscha is town or not none of us do

Didn't you just say that you didn't see there being w/t pairings?

Yes. What does that have to do with the fact that we will have no clue what they flipped for at least a whole day?

If you don't think there are w/t pairings, that means every townie would be paired with another townie, which means that Porscha's alignment being corroborated would basically be a free seer check, leading to the aforementioned balance issues.

Yes. After a full day.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I'm obv town anyways

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

that doesn’t make it better

Why the vote was 4 to 5 and than 76 people appeared to make it like 3 to 8 in favor of robyn immediately when it got to close for comfort.

Ted is wolf.

hey bud

please review the tapes

Spoiler: show

Bereft
0
No votes
Voters: None
Dubz
2
14%
Voters: tedxtr, leetic
Dyslexicon
0
No votes
Voters: None
Gira
0
No votes
Voters: None
leetic
1
7%
Voters: pyxxy
MacDougall
0
No votes
Voters: None
☆Princess Abigail☆
1
7%
Voters: TonyStarkPrime
pyxxy
0
No votes
Voters: None
Ranmilia
0
No votes
Voters: None
robyn
5
36%
Voters: Ranmilia, WindwardAway, Dyslexicon, Gira, MacDougall
tedxtr
2
14%
Voters: RondoDimBuckle, Bereft
TonyStarkPrime
0
No votes
Voters: None
WindwardAway
0
No votes
Voters: None
No elimination
0
No votes
Voters: None
No vote / Unvote
1
7%
Voters: robyn

after this

*is the shadow vote +1 modify in effect

I moved from leetic (1 -> 0) to ted (2 -> 3)
WWA moved from robyn (6* -> 5*) to ted (3 -> 4)
leetic moved from RondDubz (3*->2*) to robyn (5* -> 6*)
ted moved from RonDubz (2* -> 1*) to robyn (6* -> 7*)
Abigail voted for ted (4 -> 5)
WWA switched back from ted (5 -> 4) to robyn (7* -> 8*)
tsp moved from Abigail (1 -> 0) to robyn (8* -> 9*)

because I can see certain people already trying to pre-flip robyn and hey, I just want to help y'all do the work, because I'm a nice person

I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

[leetic]

Although the problem with what Abby says is that it effectively confirms whoever gets a partner as town, and I'm not sure how balanced that is.

How?

If a wolf is killed in the other thread we do not know they are a wolf

You have no clue porscha is town or not none of us do

Didn't you just say that you didn't see there being w/t pairings?

Yes. What does that have to do with the fact that we will have no clue what they flipped for at least a whole day?

If you don't think there are w/t pairings, that means every townie would be paired with another townie, which means that Porscha's alignment being corroborated would basically be a free seer check, leading to the aforementioned balance issues.

Yes. After a full day.

How does that change my point?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Both, Ilario is coming here and I have a vote

This does lend credence to the theory that the secret votes have to do with the biggest wagons on the other thread

Wow it's almost like I kinda had a reasonable theory that everyone shit on for no reason

[leetic]

Both, Ilario is coming here and I have a vote

This does lend credence to the theory that the secret votes have to do with the biggest wagons on the other thread

Wow it's almost like I kinda had a reasonable theory that everyone shit on for no reason

Do you have another secret vote today?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Ilario’s post restrictions (10 posts 20 words)
Hopefully he’ll be around to say things

Porscha has an identical restriction btw

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Although the problem with what Abby says is that it effectively confirms whoever gets a partner as town, and I'm not sure how balanced that is.

How?

If a wolf is killed in the other thread we do not know they are a wolf

You have no clue porscha is town or not none of us do

Didn't you just say that you didn't see there being w/t pairings?

Yes. What does that have to do with the fact that we will have no clue what they flipped for at least a whole day?

If you don't think there are w/t pairings, that means every townie would be paired with another townie, which means that Porscha's alignment being corroborated would basically be a free seer check, leading to the aforementioned balance issues.

Yes. After a full day.

How does that change my point?

Because if your killed me yesterday than none of this matters. You have no idea what my alignment is until today if I was on the block yesterday you'd kill me Porscha would be dead and none of this would matter

Do you think if Porscha tied to robyn anything would have changed? Naw y'all still kill them. You don't care about waiting for the check if I'm right.

And my mech spec seems to be pretty on point so far.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I'm fucking goated

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I hate mech spec but God I'm so good

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Both, Ilario is coming here and I have a vote

This does lend credence to the theory that the secret votes have to do with the biggest wagons on the other thread

Wow it's almost like I kinda had a reasonable theory that everyone shit on for no reason

Do you have another secret vote today?

I do not

[pyxxy]

that doesn’t make it better

Why the vote was 4 to 5 and than 76 people appeared to make it like 3 to 8 in favor of robyn immediately when it got to close for comfort.

Ted is wolf.

hey bud

please review the tapes

Spoiler: show

Bereft
0
No votes
Voters: None
Dubz
2
14%
Voters: tedxtr, leetic
Dyslexicon
0
No votes
Voters: None
Gira
0
No votes
Voters: None
leetic
1
7%
Voters: pyxxy
MacDougall
0
No votes
Voters: None
☆Princess Abigail☆
1
7%
Voters: TonyStarkPrime
pyxxy
0
No votes
Voters: None
Ranmilia
0
No votes
Voters: None
robyn
5
36%
Voters: Ranmilia, WindwardAway, Dyslexicon, Gira, MacDougall
tedxtr
2
14%
Voters: RondoDimBuckle, Bereft
TonyStarkPrime
0
No votes
Voters: None
WindwardAway
0
No votes
Voters: None
No elimination
0
No votes
Voters: None
No vote / Unvote
1
7%
Voters: robyn

after this

*is the shadow vote +1 modify in effect

I moved from leetic (1 -> 0) to ted (2 -> 3)
WWA moved from robyn (6* -> 5*) to ted (3 -> 4)
leetic moved from RondDubz (3*->2*) to robyn (5* -> 6*)
ted moved from RonDubz (2* -> 1*) to robyn (6* -> 7*)
Abigail voted for ted (4 -> 5)
WWA switched back from ted (5 -> 4) to robyn (7* -> 8*)
tsp moved from Abigail (1 -> 0) to robyn (8* -> 9*)

because I can see certain people already trying to pre-flip robyn and hey, I just want to help y'all do the work, because I'm a nice person

I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

[leetic]

How?

If a wolf is killed in the other thread we do not know they are a wolf

You have no clue porscha is town or not none of us do

Didn't you just say that you didn't see there being w/t pairings?

Yes. What does that have to do with the fact that we will have no clue what they flipped for at least a whole day?

If you don't think there are w/t pairings, that means every townie would be paired with another townie, which means that Porscha's alignment being corroborated would basically be a free seer check, leading to the aforementioned balance issues.

Yes. After a full day.

How does that change my point?

Because if your killed me yesterday than none of this matters. You have no idea what my alignment is until today if I was on the block yesterday you'd kill me Porscha would be dead and none of this would matter

Do you think if Porscha tied to robyn anything would have changed? Naw y'all still kill them. You don't care about waiting for the check if I'm right.

And my mech spec seems to be pretty on point so far.

The whole discussion was based on a moot point of the votes being a wolf power. I'm not sure how to take your insistence that w/t pairings are highly improbable.

[Ranmilia]

Okay after catch up report card

Lawful Good: Ranmilia, DubzDimBuckle, WWA

Chaotic Good: Princess Abigail, Gira, Bereft, Leetic

True Neutral: Dizzy, TSP

Lawful Evil: Pyxxy

Chaotic Evil: Ted


Ordered within tiers

Leetic is dropping for me. Schweppes is rising.

Lawful Goods are locked in and I'm willing to bet the game on it.

Ran, WWA, Rondo want to mason?

Here for your viewing pleasure

Talk to me about Rondo, Ted, Pyxxy? Well you have already talked about Rondo/Dubz but. Why are those your bottom two?

[leetic]

that doesn’t make it better

Why the vote was 4 to 5 and than 76 people appeared to make it like 3 to 8 in favor of robyn immediately when it got to close for comfort.

Ted is wolf.

hey bud

please review the tapes

Spoiler: show

Bereft
0
No votes
Voters: None
Dubz
2
14%
Voters: tedxtr, leetic
Dyslexicon
0
No votes
Voters: None
Gira
0
No votes
Voters: None
leetic
1
7%
Voters: pyxxy
MacDougall
0
No votes
Voters: None
☆Princess Abigail☆
1
7%
Voters: TonyStarkPrime
pyxxy
0
No votes
Voters: None
Ranmilia
0
No votes
Voters: None
robyn
5
36%
Voters: Ranmilia, WindwardAway, Dyslexicon, Gira, MacDougall
tedxtr
2
14%
Voters: RondoDimBuckle, Bereft
TonyStarkPrime
0
No votes
Voters: None
WindwardAway
0
No votes
Voters: None
No elimination
0
No votes
Voters: None
No vote / Unvote
1
7%
Voters: robyn

after this

*is the shadow vote +1 modify in effect

I moved from leetic (1 -> 0) to ted (2 -> 3)
WWA moved from robyn (6* -> 5*) to ted (3 -> 4)
leetic moved from RondDubz (3*->2*) to robyn (5* -> 6*)
ted moved from RonDubz (2* -> 1*) to robyn (6* -> 7*)
Abigail voted for ted (4 -> 5)
WWA switched back from ted (5 -> 4) to robyn (7* -> 8*)
tsp moved from Abigail (1 -> 0) to robyn (8* -> 9*)

because I can see certain people already trying to pre-flip robyn and hey, I just want to help y'all do the work, because I'm a nice person

I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

And I assume you didn't receive a secret vote either?

[Ranmilia]

Also why did you put yourself in Chaotic Good?

[leetic]

So I guess that's me, Abby, Ranmilia, pyxxy (presumably), and Gira (presumably) that did not receive secret votes. If the same amount is in play as last phase, the remaining two must be between tedxtr, Bereft, Dyslexicon, RDB, and Windward. Although it may just affect people who receive votes rather than there needing to be a particular number, but I highly doubt that ilario was the only one who received votes in the other thread, meaning there'd have to be at least one more if all of our assumptions are true

[leetic]

Still, I don't like the fact that this means half the thread is dipping

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

that doesn’t make it better

Why the vote was 4 to 5 and than 76 people appeared to make it like 3 to 8 in favor of robyn immediately when it got to close for comfort.

Ted is wolf.

hey bud

please review the tapes

Spoiler: show

Bereft
0
No votes
Voters: None
Dubz
2
14%
Voters: tedxtr, leetic
Dyslexicon
0
No votes
Voters: None
Gira
0
No votes
Voters: None
leetic
1
7%
Voters: pyxxy
MacDougall
0
No votes
Voters: None
☆Princess Abigail☆
1
7%
Voters: TonyStarkPrime
pyxxy
0
No votes
Voters: None
Ranmilia
0
No votes
Voters: None
robyn
5
36%
Voters: Ranmilia, WindwardAway, Dyslexicon, Gira, MacDougall
tedxtr
2
14%
Voters: RondoDimBuckle, Bereft
TonyStarkPrime
0
No votes
Voters: None
WindwardAway
0
No votes
Voters: None
No elimination
0
No votes
Voters: None
No vote / Unvote
1
7%
Voters: robyn

after this

*is the shadow vote +1 modify in effect

I moved from leetic (1 -> 0) to ted (2 -> 3)
WWA moved from robyn (6* -> 5*) to ted (3 -> 4)
leetic moved from RondDubz (3*->2*) to robyn (5* -> 6*)
ted moved from RonDubz (2* -> 1*) to robyn (6* -> 7*)
Abigail voted for ted (4 -> 5)
WWA switched back from ted (5 -> 4) to robyn (7* -> 8*)
tsp moved from Abigail (1 -> 0) to robyn (8* -> 9*)

because I can see certain people already trying to pre-flip robyn and hey, I just want to help y'all do the work, because I'm a nice person

I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

But you also finished on a vanity wagon no?

[Ranmilia]

It occurs to me that TSP did not get a secret vote yesterday. If the wagon in other thread = vote theory is correct that means illario was not a wagon d1, and went straight from that to getting voted out... hm.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Okay after catch up report card

Lawful Good: Ranmilia, DubzDimBuckle, WWA

Chaotic Good: Princess Abigail, Gira, Bereft, Leetic

True Neutral: Dizzy, TSP

Lawful Evil: Pyxxy

Chaotic Evil: Ted


Ordered within tiers

Leetic is dropping for me. Schweppes is rising.

Lawful Goods are locked in and I'm willing to bet the game on it.

Ran, WWA, Rondo want to mason?

Here for your viewing pleasure

Talk to me about Rondo, Ted, Pyxxy? Well you have already talked about Rondo/Dubz but. Why are those your bottom two?

Wagon movement when Ted was brought close to Robyn looks atrocious

I have no conceivably valid reason to town read pyxxy. They've been providing much info but no analysis and largely doing nothing that isn't as wolfy as it could be towny

The way I read the game is to look at posts from a player and internally analyze "how does this benefit town? How does this benefit wolf? Would town do it and why? Would wolf do it and why? Which is more likely?"

After doing that analysis internally I draw a conclusion.

I am much better at finding town than scum statistically so I look for town and than poe the people I find least likely to be town

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Also why did you put yourself in Chaotic Good?

At the time I didn't think I was super obvious town

Now I do though lol

[RondoDimBuckle]

I am exhausted and most likely sunburnt just popping in to pop out. Going for dinner then if I can resist drinking Honey mead with another friend late into the night I will be back

Spoiler: show

I'll be back, as much as I want to go get blind on mead I committed to this

[leetic]

It occurs to me that TSP did not get a secret vote yesterday. If the wagon in other thread = vote theory is correct that means illario was not a wagon d1, and went straight from that to getting voted out... hm.

It was likely a CFD, if what they say is true. There's also a possibility that maybe they are lying to us and were indicted by some pretty hard mechanical evidence on D2? Either way, were unlikely to get any answers until another person shows up. Right now, we should probably focus on which person we should be sending to the other thread.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Also why did you put yourself in Chaotic Good?

At the time I didn't think I was super obvious town

Now I do though lol

No neon is chaotic as fuck so it fits

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Also why did you put yourself in Chaotic Good?

At the time I didn't think I was super obvious town

Now I do though lol

No neon is chaotic as fuck so it fits

Also valid

[leetic]

I am exhausted and most likely sunburnt just popping in to pop out. Going for dinner then if I can resist drinking Honey mead with another friend late into the night I will be back

Spoiler: show

I'll be back, as much as I want to go get blind on mead I committed to this

Got another secret vote?

[pyxxy]

Why the vote was 4 to 5 and than 76 people appeared to make it like 3 to 8 in favor of robyn immediately when it got to close for comfort.

Ted is wolf.

hey bud

please review the tapes

after this

*is the shadow vote +1 modify in effect

I moved from leetic (1 -> 0) to ted (2 -> 3)
WWA moved from robyn (6* -> 5*) to ted (3 -> 4)
leetic moved from RondDubz (3*->2*) to robyn (5* -> 6*)
ted moved from RonDubz (2* -> 1*) to robyn (6* -> 7*)
Abigail voted for ted (4 -> 5)
WWA switched back from ted (5 -> 4) to robyn (7* -> 8*)
tsp moved from Abigail (1 -> 0) to robyn (8* -> 9*)

because I can see certain people already trying to pre-flip robyn and hey, I just want to help y'all do the work, because I'm a nice person

I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

And I assume you didn't receive a secret vote either?

all silent on the pyxxy front

[pyxxy]

Why the vote was 4 to 5 and than 76 people appeared to make it like 3 to 8 in favor of robyn immediately when it got to close for comfort.

Ted is wolf.

hey bud

please review the tapes

after this

*is the shadow vote +1 modify in effect

I moved from leetic (1 -> 0) to ted (2 -> 3)
WWA moved from robyn (6* -> 5*) to ted (3 -> 4)
leetic moved from RondDubz (3*->2*) to robyn (5* -> 6*)
ted moved from RonDubz (2* -> 1*) to robyn (6* -> 7*)
Abigail voted for ted (4 -> 5)
WWA switched back from ted (5 -> 4) to robyn (7* -> 8*)
tsp moved from Abigail (1 -> 0) to robyn (8* -> 9*)

because I can see certain people already trying to pre-flip robyn and hey, I just want to help y'all do the work, because I'm a nice person

I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

But you also finished on a vanity wagon no?

is that part of why you're sussing me? I thought it was more about the robyn wagon popping off after ted got close, and so I wanted to point out that I don't fit that narrative

[leetic]

hey bud

please review the tapes



I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

And I assume you didn't receive a secret vote either?

all silent on the pyxxy front

If I'm interpreting this correctly, this is a no, right? I'll assume that you're not withholding this information, which would be anti-town

[pyxxy]

*scrolls down*

oh you just haven't read my posts today, no shade

[pyxxy]

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

And I assume you didn't receive a secret vote either?

all silent on the pyxxy front

If I'm interpreting this correctly, this is a no, right? I'll assume that you're not withholding this information, which would be anti-town

oh the quote is quiet but I wrote silent

I'm dumb my bad

I meant quiet

[leetic]

A couple of meta questions about Dyslexicon:

- Is it typical for them to completely dip like this?
- Do they typically bus/distance their partners or are they more willing to openly defend them?

[Ranmilia]

Okay after catch up report card

Lawful Good: Ranmilia, DubzDimBuckle, WWA

Chaotic Good: Princess Abigail, Gira, Bereft, Leetic

True Neutral: Dizzy, TSP

Lawful Evil: Pyxxy

Chaotic Evil: Ted


Ordered within tiers

Leetic is dropping for me. Schweppes is rising.

Lawful Goods are locked in and I'm willing to bet the game on it.

Ran, WWA, Rondo want to mason?

Here for your viewing pleasure

Talk to me about Rondo, Ted, Pyxxy? Well you have already talked about Rondo/Dubz but. Why are those your bottom two?

Wagon movement when Ted was brought close to Robyn looks atrocious

I have no conceivably valid reason to town read pyxxy. They've been providing much info but no analysis and largely doing nothing that isn't as wolfy as it could be towny

The way I read the game is to look at posts from a player and internally analyze "how does this benefit town? How does this benefit wolf? Would town do it and why? Would wolf do it and why? Which is more likely?"

After doing that analysis internally I draw a conclusion.

I am much better at finding town than scum statistically so I look for town and than poe the people I find least likely to be town

Hm. Talk to me about Bereft, actually. That's the lynchpin there, because my view on Ted currently is relative to my view on Bereft and Rondo. I see how from your point of view this worldview makes sense.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

hey bud

please review the tapes



I made this post on D1 specifically for anyone wanting to do exactly what you're doing

I don't see how this changes my right process at all

okay

Thank you for this amazing insight

If my point is that when Ted got close there was a massive wagon formation change even if I'm wrong about the numbers you've corroborated the concept no?

right

and I helped make ted close

But you also finished on a vanity wagon no?

is that part of why you're sussing me? I thought it was more about the robyn wagon popping off after ted got close, and so I wanted to point out that I don't fit that narrative

Your vote is meaningless if I think it's a potential distancing vote and you bounced off wagon as soon as it was safe

[leetic]

The two biggest problems with pursuing Dyslexicon are 1. I feel a Dizzy lynch would just be a result of inertia, and I'm concerned if town continues this path 2. I feel like it would probably be more lucrative to look at the people who were off robyn. Granted, RDB and Bereft (especially the latter) aren't exactly responsive to pushes either.