Nat'l Lampoon's Christmas Vacation - Game End

[Roxy]

@robyn The poor sportsmanship.

[Roxy]

[robyn]

@robyn The poor sportsmanship.

what is?

[RondoDimBuckle]

I hope you had everyones ok to post this Robyn. I would be pretty pissed if you posted a discord discussion with me in it without my go ahead

[robyn]

I hope you had everyones ok to post this Robyn. I would be pretty pissed if you posted a discord discussion with me in it without my go ahead

roxy stated that wolf chat would be released after i asked for wolf chat to not be opened

[robyn]

i would have not posted it but it's gonna be released anyway, take up any issues you have with roxy

[fingersplints]

we lost mathematically, there was no hope and every other host would've called the game as over d3 do you realize? it wasn't just that we were demoralized it was that we had 0 winning chances

I disagree that every other host would have called the game on Day 3 without a single mafia eliminated.

I think if you want to make other complaints they should be done out of the thread. You think this game was unfair, and you are entitled to your opinion. But if your issue is with me and Roxy then what is really unfair is all the people who will be subjected to read this. Mac didn’t do anything. Long Con didn’t do anything. Darling Monroe didn’t do anything etc etc.

[robyn]

we lost mathematically, there was no hope and every other host would've called the game as over d3 do you realize? it wasn't just that we were demoralized it was that we had 0 winning chances

I disagree that every other host would have called the game on Day 3 without a single mafia eliminated.

I think if you want to make other complaints they should be done out of the thread. You think this game was unfair, and you are entitled to your opinion. But if your issue is with me and Roxy then what is really unfair is all the people who will be subjected to read this. Mac didn’t do anything. Long Con didn’t do anything. Darling Monroe didn’t do anything etc etc.

i’ve made it very very clear that my issue is singularly regarding the setup. and it’s explicitly not a personal attack towards you and roxy, even if roxy singled me out and called me a bad sport, i did not return such a compliment

also if either pyxxy/dm had a role that was confirmable then every other host would have called the game as a town win sod3. that’s a result of the setup and not the mafia play which you point out

and i’m being public about it because my issue is just that, purely regarding the setup. because yes i’m mad and frustrated at the setup and only the setup. it’s impersonal if anything even though you’re the host and i’m the player i have the unique position of getting shafted after the entire mafia team played well but lost mechanically

if it was personal i wouldn’t include the spectators and other players, instead it’s purely a game balance issue wherein other players have thoughts too. upon conceding long con thought the game was mathematically won for town, and mac commented that he felt sorry for the wolves unless they had serious catch up mechanics. and i value both of these players inputs in the setup because judging by their comments so far they’re gonna be upset with the setup too. because they didn’t really get to play either

i also want to make sure other hosts don’t make the same balance errors

[robyn]

post the full setup

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Meanwhile DM/Pyxxy and Abi are just frozen in wolf chat with no idea wtf to do.

Fax

[fingersplints]

@robyn i can appreciate and understand your frustration. When I say your issue is with me and Rox, I didn’t mean personal (“omg you guys suck and splints you are ugly AF”) I meant your issue is with us based on the set up.

I think this thread is kind of toxic at the moment. So maybe if we all give it a day to settle, we can work together for a good resolution. You mention not wanting this to happen again, so maybe we can have a mafia thread on the site about roles that do and don’t work. Maybe something productive can come of this for everyone.

I value and respect everyone that played, hosted, and was involved in any way. This was just meant to be a little Christmas fun; I’d hate to leave it on such bad terms.

[robyn]

@robyn i can appreciate and understand your frustration. When I say your issue is with me and Rox, I didn’t mean personal (“omg you guys suck and splints you are ugly AF”) I meant your issue is with us based on the set up.

I think this thread is kind of toxic at the moment. So maybe if we all give it a day to settle, we can work together for a good resolution. You mention not wanting this to happen again, so maybe we can have a mafia thread on the site about roles that do and don’t work. Maybe something productive can come of this for everyone.

I value and respect everyone that played, hosted, and was involved in any way. This was just meant to be a little Christmas fun; I’d hate to leave it on such bad terms.

can you post the full setup?

[robyn]

i’ll come back later and it’s 7am and i should sleep and so on so forth, but i would like to see the entire setup and all roles. i don’t think that is unfair to ask either, i’ve never heard of a setup not outed after a game ending

but yeah i’d like this to be productive, maybe we can have more setup reviewers or some official process like MU

[fingersplints]

I never got a chance to post the mafia Christmas song I wrote

Dashing through the snow
In a fast quick getaway
O'er the fields we go
Murder all the way
He he he
The metal on knives cling
Guns and ropes alright
What fun it is to kill and sing
A SLAYing song tonight

Mafia games, place the blame
Accuse someone today
Oh, what fun it is to play
Night kill, vote, use your action, hey
Mafia games, don’t take blame
Clear your name today
Oh, what fun it is to play
And please make sure that you slay

[fingersplints]

i’ll come back later and it’s 7am and i should sleep and so on so forth, but i would like to see the entire setup and all roles. i don’t think that is unfair to ask either, i’ve never heard of a setup not outed after a game ending

but yeah i’d like this to be productive, maybe we can have more setup reviewers or some official process like MU

Sleep now. We’ll be productive tomorrow

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Im bored

I find this charming and endearing. Five stars!

[fingersplints]

The thread is now closed. If anyone else wishes to discuss this, my inbox is open. The thread may or may not be reopened at a later date.

Always remember it’s just a game and we are meant to be having fun.
I truly hope everyone had a merry Christmas (or whatever you celebrate ), and a happy new year!

[Roxy]

The People who are winners


Scotty was

Clark Griswold SR bus driver (2 players) - every night you will pick two players and their targets will be swapped.

☆Princess A☆ was

Aunt Bethany when you eat her jello mold you may only post in christmas songs

Darling M was

Christmas Lights - Survivor - reflect nightly can only be elimmed, anyone who targets you with a N/A will be targeting themselves - Survive til the end

Mac was

Uncle Lewis using your toupee you can confuse whoever targets you on even nights (you cannot be affected - nothing happens) odd nights you are wide open for targeting. You are town.

Rondo was

Ellen Griswold Your vote worth two if for a baddie worth zero if for a town, you are town.

sig was

Russ Griswold blocker - block a player nightly you are town

LC was

Clark Griswold - joat - 1x shots= Protect, Block, Lie Detect, Alignment Check, you are town.

Pyx was

Audrey Griswold - protector, protect 1 player each night, you are town.

leetic was

Francis Smith - gets info, you will get 3 statements, 1 will be false and choose one to share with the thread nightly. You are town.

Serhal was

Eddie Johnson - drops a load in the gutter and kills one time in the game, you are town.

falc was

Catherine Johnson will be told if you are targeted - you are town

The people who did not win


Robyn, Tutuu and Porscha were

You are the BahHumbugs baddie team!!

robyn- Frank Shirley - You kill nightly

Porscha- Margot Chester - You will take away someone's vote nightly for the following day which also silences them for entire day period. (no post no vote)

Tutuu - Todd Chester - You can block nightly

[Roxy]

This has been unlocked.

If you can give opinions as someone who realizes this is only a game for fun then you may post.

If it gets heated or hate is used it will be locked again.


Please also be aware that unless you actually know all the roles/mechanics then you cannot claim something is broke.

[Long Con]

2 Clarks?

[Long Con]

Oh I didn't see the SR!

[Long Con]

Scotty, please share your targets

[Roxy]

Scotty, please share your targets

@fingersplints or I will post n/a's later. Ariya just woke up

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I lied about nothing

Never doubt me!

[Long Con]

I lied about nothing

Never doubt me!

Never did.

[DarlingMonroe]

hehe, i was the 3rd party xD

[leetic]

I do have a couple of criticisms of the hosting, namely, that you confirmed information that shouldn't have been confirmed. Basically confirming that there was no janitor ended up confirming a lot of things and would have basically outed the wolves by itself as a result of my role. Revealing the mafia wasn't targeted by anything to them, even to dissuade them from forfeiting, is also a lot of information that they shouldn't have access to. Also, with directly interacting with players like you did with Serhal, just don't, if you need to send them a message privately.

As for the setup, I'm not exactly a fan of roles like Silencer or Post Restrictor, as they can mess with parity and the former in particular can be ridiculously powerful in wolf hands. The latter was mitigated somewhat by the no double targeting role, but that led to balance issues of its own. Also, if I'm understanding this correctly, can only one of the wolf roles perform nightkills? That would make the setup ridiculously swingy if true

[Scotty]

Oh I didn't see the SR!

Yeah, for a while I thought that stood for Scumread

Scotty, please share your targets

N0: pyxxy and LC - “no success”
N1: tutuu and Robyn - “success”
N2: Abigail and DM - “success, sort-of”

[Scotty]

Oh I didn't see the SR!

Yeah, for a while I thought that stood for Scumread

Scotty, please share your targets

N0: pyxxy and LC - “no success”
N1: tutuu and Robyn - “success”
N2: Abigail and DM - “success, sort-of”

Wait I just realized I targeted both mafia on N1 and don’t know what actually happened.

Scotty has been silenced they cannot post or vote.

falcon was killed.

Stuff was switched but had zero bearing.

So I was successful, so I know I wasn’t blocked. But stuff was switched with zero bearing. Robyn was the one that killed, so it would seem to me that tutuu was targeting falcon to block, therefore I switched the kill onto LC. And Robyn must have been trying to kill me, since I was silenced.

I don’t actually know what happened there

[Scotty]

Oh I didn't see the SR!

Yeah, for a while I thought that stood for Scumread

Scotty, please share your targets

N0: pyxxy and LC - “no success”
N1: tutuu and Robyn - “success”
N2: Abigail and DM - “success, sort-of”

Wait I just realized I targeted both mafia on N1 and don’t know what actually happened.

Scotty has been silenced they cannot post or vote.

falcon was killed.

Stuff was switched but had zero bearing.

So I was successful, so I know I wasn’t blocked. But stuff was switched with zero bearing. Robyn was the one that killed, so it would seem to me that tutuu was targeting falcon to block, therefore I switched the kill onto falcon. And Robyn must have been trying to kill me, since I was silenced.

I don’t actually know what happened there

*ebwop LC > falcon

[Long Con]

phew!

[Long Con]

AND that's pretty sweet if that's the way it went down, isn't it Scotty? You busdrove the kill away from yourself? That's pretty legit, nice job!

[sig]

Told y’all Robyn was mafia and I was civ


Alsooooooo given the game ended right before the new years I say we count this towards 2024

[leetic]

Told y’all Robyn was mafia and I was civ


Alsooooooo given the game ended right before the new years I say we count this towards 2024

Come on, it's my one win this year

[Porscha]

Oh I didn't see the SR!

Yeah, for a while I thought that stood for Scumread

Scotty, please share your targets

N0: pyxxy and LC - “no success”
N1: tutuu and Robyn - “success”
N2: Abigail and DM - “success, sort-of”

Wait I just realized I targeted both mafia on N1 and don’t know what actually happened.

Scotty has been silenced they cannot post or vote.

falcon was killed.

Stuff was switched but had zero bearing.

So I was successful, so I know I wasn’t blocked. But stuff was switched with zero bearing. Robyn was the one that killed, so it would seem to me that tutuu was targeting falcon to block, therefore I switched the kill onto falcon. And Robyn must have been trying to kill me, since I was silenced.

I don’t actually know what happened there

*ebwop LC > falcon

we couldn't target you for a kill after you were silenced. that counted as double targeting. tutuu had to panic choose falcon as the night kill because we were not aware of the no double targeting rule. (and not even single role double targeting - like sure, I can't just continuously keep silencing the same person, but we couldn't silence you n1 and then kill you n2 either.) so we tried to kill mac the night after failing the silence on him the night prior. we had submitted the actions with 14-16 hours before start of day and with less than 20 minutes before start of day we were told we could not target mac again and had to rechoose our kill or not get a kill that night. roxy was generous in that she gave us extra time to make a choice, and luckily 1 wolf was awake to do this, but submitting actions well over 12 hours in advance and only finding out about the double target rule with 20 minutes before day start was really unfortunate. no double targeting rule and it's specifications should be announced in set up, ideally.

and I know we were all very busy with the holidays and what not, but it's also really frustrating for your mafia team to have questions or submit actions and not get responses for very long periods of time and then get boned by that absence. I do appreciate roxy trying to make it up to us with little things like the info she gave that leetic mentioned should not have been given, but it was just really difficult. and my ability was heavily nullified by the open nights and no double targeting including not just individual targeting, but also targeting by other abilities or night kills. there is little incentive to silence someone if at any point you think you may want to night kill them the next night, and it closes off a lot of options and generally confirms that person as town without the ability to kill them afterwards. my role was theoretically strong - but it ended up hurting us without knowing about the double targeting issue in advance and how it confirmed players later without us being able to night kill said confirmed players. so it really left us with a single roleblock ability stacked against the rest of town's abilities. in another world this set up could have worked out with some tweaks, I think.

regardless - thank you roxy for spending time creating and hosting (even during the busy holidays!) and trying to make it work out. and thank you fingersplints for helping out in maf chat and in thread. nook - thanks for existing ;p

though, might I add, some of the town players made it needlessly difficult to find each other... but it was fun until we couldn't win anymore hahah! GG

[leetic]

Perhaps the biggest problem with the game's balance is that, even if all of Porscha's, robyn's, and tutuu's complaints about the setup were fixed, the Oracle still would have broken the setup. Let me explain.

Now this is my first time playing in a game that had any sort of Oracle role in it. Now the difficult thing about balancing Oracles is that it's not the role itself that causes problems, it's the information that the host gives the Oracle that determines the level of power. Now for the first two days, it was fine. D1, "no townies had BTSC" was effectively confirmed due to the other statements being contradictory, but it was no big deal; it isn't exactly a huge revelation about the game and Mason and Neighborizer are virtually never used as scum fakeclaims anyways. D2 was also fine, "double targeting" was meaningless to someone who didn't understand the hosting and "one person was found to be town" isn't something that can't be confirmed by a well-placed Voyeur shot. The problem was in D3, with the statement "No one has a voted for a baddie yet." This is an absurd amount of information to give any role, as it basically confirmed a lot of people as town and singlehandedly jeopardized any chance the wolves had of winning. If the wolves hadn't forfeited, I definitely would have looked into who would have been indicted by this; I distinctly remember thinking that tutuu, who I otherwise townread, would have been indicted by this and so I began to doubt in that slot. In fact, the main reason I was hesitant to believe it is tat I thought it would be a ridiculous amount of information to give to someone; it is almost on the level of allowing someone in spoiled chat to still post. Even without the host slip that basically confirmed that a Janitor wasn't in the game, the fact that Long Con was familiar enough with your hosting style to know that a janitor was very unlikely was enough information to almost confirm it, and just one wolf flip would have immediately sealed the deal for the entire team. If you are going to use a role like that in the future, please consider the implications on the game if each of the "true" statements were mod-confirmed, since the information I got out of the Oracle role is much more than any Cop or Watcher could ever hope for. Oh well, at least I can count this as the game where I randed the most overpowered town role.

As for the setup itself, I don't have as much complaints as some others. Town blocker is fine, 1x Vig is fine, JOAT is fine, Doctor is mostly fine though I would have replaced it with a weaker role like Bodyguard or Angel given the amount of protection already in the setup, even night Ascetic is mostly fine though there probably should have been a limit to how deathproof they were, post restrictor is not fun to be hit by but not overpowered per se. The big issue here was mechanics, the wolves not being able to kill anyone they had targeted the previous night turns every wolf role into effectively being an Angel, which makes them arguably negative utility for wolves. This especially could have led to really weird -yLo shenanigans. Another thing I suggest for hosts is that if one of your rulings differs from the standard, then players should know at the beginning of the game! This is something I've had issues with as a host before, to be fair, but the wolf team should at the very least have been able to plan around the no double targeting rule from the beginning, and I honestly would have not had it in effect for N1 since they couldn't have reasonably fully anticipated the effects of their N0 actions.

Overall, I did have some fun here (when I was not being post restricted) and I am glad to have my first win in a while. Still, I understand why the wolves are frustrated here.

[Roxy]

I've decided to let everyone just say what they feel happened. Whether true or not.

[MacDougall]

Perhaps the biggest problem with the game's balance is that, even if all of Porscha's, robyn's, and tutuu's complaints about the setup were fixed, the Oracle still would have broken the setup. Let me explain.

Now this is my first time playing in a game that had any sort of Oracle role in it. Now the difficult thing about balancing Oracles is that it's not the role itself that causes problems, it's the information that the host gives the Oracle that determines the level of power. Now for the first two days, it was fine. D1, "no townies had BTSC" was effectively confirmed due to the other statements being contradictory, but it was no big deal; it isn't exactly a huge revelation about the game and Mason and Neighborizer are virtually never used as scum fakeclaims anyways. D2 was also fine, "double targeting" was meaningless to someone who didn't understand the hosting and "one person was found to be town" isn't something that can't be confirmed by a well-placed Voyeur shot. The problem was in D3, with the statement "No one has a voted for a baddie yet." This is an absurd amount of information to give any role, as it basically confirmed a lot of people as town and singlehandedly jeopardized any chance the wolves had of winning. If the wolves hadn't forfeited, I definitely would have looked into who would have been indicted by this; I distinctly remember thinking that tutuu, who I otherwise townread, would have been indicted by this and so I began to doubt in that slot. In fact, the main reason I was hesitant to believe it is tat I thought it would be a ridiculous amount of information to give to someone; it is almost on the level of allowing someone in spoiled chat to still post. Even without the host slip that basically confirmed that a Janitor wasn't in the game, the fact that Long Con was familiar enough with your hosting style to know that a janitor was very unlikely was enough information to almost confirm it, and just one wolf flip would have immediately sealed the deal for the entire team. If you are going to use a role like that in the future, please consider the implications on the game if each of the "true" statements were mod-confirmed, since the information I got out of the Oracle role is much more than any Cop or Watcher could ever hope for. Oh well, at least I can count this as the game where I randed the most overpowered town role.

As for the setup itself, I don't have as much complaints as some others. Town blocker is fine, 1x Vig is fine, JOAT is fine, Doctor is mostly fine though I would have replaced it with a weaker role like Bodyguard or Angel given the amount of protection already in the setup, even night Ascetic is mostly fine though there probably should have been a limit to how deathproof they were, post restrictor is not fun to be hit by but not overpowered per se. The big issue here was mechanics, the wolves not being able to kill anyone they had targeted the previous night turns every wolf role into effectively being an Angel, which makes them arguably negative utility for wolves. This especially could have led to really weird -yLo shenanigans. Another thing I suggest for hosts is that if one of your rulings differs from the standard, then players should know at the beginning of the game! This is something I've had issues with as a host before, to be fair, but the wolf team should at the very least have been able to plan around the no double targeting rule from the beginning, and I honestly would have not had it in effect for N1 since they couldn't have reasonably fully anticipated the effects of their N0 actions.

Overall, I did have some fun here (when I was not being post restricted) and I am glad to have my first win in a while. Still, I understand why the wolves are frustrated here.

But the statement was false. Robyn had been voted and so had Porscha. So it meant nothing. All you knew if you pieced it correctly was that a wolf had been voted and well duh.

[Long Con]

@Porscha we had conflict (who was overreacting? ) early on. Was that all real, or was there a Wolf aspect woven in?

[Porscha]

@Porscha we had conflict (who was overreacting? ) early on. Was that all real, or was there a Wolf aspect woven in?

I was legitimately confused lol. honest to god I wasn't thinking of rondo's post as the premise for the over reacting at all

[DarlingMonroe]

So have a Win as Survivor/3rd Party & as Wolf/Mafia.

When will my town W come?

D:

[leetic]

Perhaps the biggest problem with the game's balance is that, even if all of Porscha's, robyn's, and tutuu's complaints about the setup were fixed, the Oracle still would have broken the setup. Let me explain.

Now this is my first time playing in a game that had any sort of Oracle role in it. Now the difficult thing about balancing Oracles is that it's not the role itself that causes problems, it's the information that the host gives the Oracle that determines the level of power. Now for the first two days, it was fine. D1, "no townies had BTSC" was effectively confirmed due to the other statements being contradictory, but it was no big deal; it isn't exactly a huge revelation about the game and Mason and Neighborizer are virtually never used as scum fakeclaims anyways. D2 was also fine, "double targeting" was meaningless to someone who didn't understand the hosting and "one person was found to be town" isn't something that can't be confirmed by a well-placed Voyeur shot. The problem was in D3, with the statement "No one has a voted for a baddie yet." This is an absurd amount of information to give any role, as it basically confirmed a lot of people as town and singlehandedly jeopardized any chance the wolves had of winning. If the wolves hadn't forfeited, I definitely would have looked into who would have been indicted by this; I distinctly remember thinking that tutuu, who I otherwise townread, would have been indicted by this and so I began to doubt in that slot. In fact, the main reason I was hesitant to believe it is tat I thought it would be a ridiculous amount of information to give to someone; it is almost on the level of allowing someone in spoiled chat to still post. Even without the host slip that basically confirmed that a Janitor wasn't in the game, the fact that Long Con was familiar enough with your hosting style to know that a janitor was very unlikely was enough information to almost confirm it, and just one wolf flip would have immediately sealed the deal for the entire team. If you are going to use a role like that in the future, please consider the implications on the game if each of the "true" statements were mod-confirmed, since the information I got out of the Oracle role is much more than any Cop or Watcher could ever hope for. Oh well, at least I can count this as the game where I randed the most overpowered town role.

As for the setup itself, I don't have as much complaints as some others. Town blocker is fine, 1x Vig is fine, JOAT is fine, Doctor is mostly fine though I would have replaced it with a weaker role like Bodyguard or Angel given the amount of protection already in the setup, even night Ascetic is mostly fine though there probably should have been a limit to how deathproof they were, post restrictor is not fun to be hit by but not overpowered per se. The big issue here was mechanics, the wolves not being able to kill anyone they had targeted the previous night turns every wolf role into effectively being an Angel, which makes them arguably negative utility for wolves. This especially could have led to really weird -yLo shenanigans. Another thing I suggest for hosts is that if one of your rulings differs from the standard, then players should know at the beginning of the game! This is something I've had issues with as a host before, to be fair, but the wolf team should at the very least have been able to plan around the no double targeting rule from the beginning, and I honestly would have not had it in effect for N1 since they couldn't have reasonably fully anticipated the effects of their N0 actions.

Overall, I did have some fun here (when I was not being post restricted) and I am glad to have my first win in a while. Still, I understand why the wolves are frustrated here.

But the statement was false. Robyn had been voted and so had Porscha. So it meant nothing. All you knew if you pieced it correctly was that a wolf had been voted and well duh.

It was confirmed true by there not being a janitor in the game, so it was likely referring to not having any votes at EoD, which still cleared a lot of people

[Roxy]

I just wanted to post that the baddies had a kill, a block, a silencer AND a vote negator.
Very powerful in my book. Every round they could have made a towny lose their vote why they chose not to use this is beyond me.

They killed the blocker on the night they are complaining about when they should have thanked tutuu for looking beyond the Mac only target.

The town protector was protecting porscha.

All of this assuming that happened here after gane was quite hilarious