The Donner Party - Day 7

[Marmot]

I just want to address the info dumping issue. The only thing that I said that could be considered as something of the sort is saying that Epi wasn't on my team. Had I just said that the probability of him being a baddie was higher for me because he wasn't a Donner, and then voted for him, would you not know he's not on my team?
The only way people would vote for someone on their team, is if they were baddies and then they'd probably move that vote before the actual deadline. So I am now convinced I didn't info dump, and I take my apology back.
And people voting for those who allegedly info dumped are not looking very civvie like in my eyes. *eyes* llama

The rules indicate that normal mafia rules apply. Role-outing is always against the rules, but some hosts don't state that infodumping is against the rules (ie. see GoC rules), so it is unclear if that is considered normal mafia rules or not.

So to solve that problem, Roxy, is infodumping permitted?

Hey Roxy, could I get an answer here pretty please?

[thellama73]

I love secret secrets. It adds an element of mystery to the game and stops people endlessly speculating, since they don't see *secrets* in the role list.

[S~V~S]

yeah, I love secret secrets, too. That way all the "Oh so & so must be role X becasue blah blah"

With Secret secrets that doesn't happen.

[Marmot]

Just so I know, do secret secrets mean something that nobody but the host knows about or is even aware? Or does the player with said role also know?

[Marmot]

It's a new day!

Who's got some meat on their bones?

[Roxy]

The first cut is the deepest



The storm had been quite harsh but George was not well enough to try and continue through the pass to California. Tamsen refused to leave his side. And now look what happened The Weather had, had its way with her.

"If my boundary stops here,
I have daughters to draw new maps on the world
they will draw the lines of my face, they will draw with my gestures my voice
they will speak my words thinking they have invented them.

They will invent them, they will invent me,
I will be planted again and again,
I will wake in the eyes of their children's children
they will speak my words."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Hunger tried to help Weather while it had settled into the Pass to make sure the Donner Party got no further but The Hunger can't be everywhere at once and Weather was gone just as fast as it had arrived. Fortunately for The Hunger Weather had stuck around long enough to make the trail impassable.

Metalmarsh was Tamsen Donner
Epignosis was Weather you have 48 hours to find who wanted fresh meat.

[Marmot]

That's unfortunate.

[Roxy]

I just want to address the info dumping issue. The only thing that I said that could be considered as something of the sort is saying that Epi wasn't on my team. Had I just said that the probability of him being a baddie was higher for me because he wasn't a Donner, and then voted for him, would you not know he's not on my team?
The only way people would vote for someone on their team, is if they were baddies and then they'd probably move that vote before the actual deadline. So I am now convinced I didn't info dump, and I take my apology back.
And people voting for those who allegedly info dumped are not looking very civvie like in my eyes. *eyes* llama

The rules indicate that normal mafia rules apply. Role-outing is always against the rules, but some hosts don't state that infodumping is against the rules (ie. see GoC rules), so it is unclear if that is considered normal mafia rules or not.

So to solve that problem, Roxy, is infodumping permitted?

Hey Roxy, could I get an answer here pretty please?

I consider it in bad form - though I have been guilty of it in GoC. Lets just say for me normal mafia rules of etiquette state that info dumping is as bad as role outing. And in GoC I was just a fool with info.

[Ricochet]

RIP MM.

B-but... Epig!

[S~V~S]

RIP Metalmarsh

And I guess Epi was a baddie

[Tangrowth]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

[Marmot]

Can we not lynch Epi? I wanted to play mafia with him.

My dream was rather short-lived.

[Zombarella]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

[thellama73]

RIP MM

[Tangrowth]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

[thellama73]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

Wasatch is supposed to kill nightly, so he could have killed Epi instead of Levina. Otherwise, we may have an inactive baddie.

[Zombarella]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

Or Jacob Donner did a lunch stop to protect Elizabeth Donner (who I think might be Llama).

[Tangrowth]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

Wasatch is supposed to kill nightly, so he could have killed Epi instead of Levina. Otherwise, we may have an inactive baddie.

Interesting. Who is inactive though, didn't everyone except splints make the D1 poll?

Linki w/ Zomb: That wouldn't make sense; Llama wasn't in danger of being lynched. The lynch (lunch) stops work in that someone can send it in up until the last second of Day, so there's no way someone would use it in D1 if that's the case.

[thellama73]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

Or Jacob Donner did a lunch stop to protect Elizabeth Donner (who I think might be Llama).

I don't see how that makes sense, since Epi was the one being lynched.

linki: quite.

[Zombarella]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

Wasatch is supposed to kill nightly, so he could have killed Epi instead of Levina. Otherwise, we may have an inactive baddie.

Super good point! So many roles to keep track of..

[Zombarella]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

I see your point and I agree.

[S~V~S]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

Or Jacob Donner did a lunch stop to protect Elizabeth Donner (who I think might be Llama).

Just an FYI, it is considered bad form to identify who you think to be a civvie role in the thread.

[Roxy]

What's scarier than a Ninja? A Ninja with slimy tentacles and an unpronounceable name in league with a Zombie Kitty.

[Zombarella]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

Or Jacob Donner did a lunch stop to protect Elizabeth Donner (who I think might be Llama).

Just an FYI, it is considered bad form to identify who you think to be a civvie role in the thread.

Wait, what?! MP told me it was fine as long as I say that it is what I think. So confused.

[Tangrowth]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

Or Jacob Donner did a lunch stop to protect Elizabeth Donner (who I think might be Llama).

Just an FYI, it is considered bad form to identify who you think to be a civvie role in the thread.

Wait, what?! MP told me it was fine as long as I say that it is what I think. So confused.

Not because it's against the rules.

It tells the baddies who people think a civilian is, thereby giving them information they can utilize in their NKs. Not good form in terms of civilian behavior.

[Tangrowth]

S~V~S, how do you feel about LC?

[thellama73]

Just an FYI, it is considered bad form to identify who you think to be a civvie role in the thread.

Wait, what?! MP told me it was fine as long as I say that it is what I think. So confused.

I think SVS's point is overstated. She considers it bad form to identify a specific civvie role, because she thinks it makes that person a target for baddie night kills. Not everyone agrees with her though.

[Zombarella]

RIP MM. BIH Epi.

So my Weather/Hunger lunch stop theory was right??? ..... Cool!

What was your weather/hunger lunch stop theory?
I think that weather killed tamsen and hunger tried to kill someone who cannot be NK'd instead of protecting weather. Also, Levina used one of her three kills to get Epig.

I thought Epi didn't care about getting lynched because Weather/Hunger had a secret (not stated) lunch stop. It appears that might have actually been true.

Or Jacob Donner did a lunch stop to protect Elizabeth Donner (who I think might be Llama).

Just an FYI, it is considered bad form to identify who you think to be a civvie role in the thread.

Confusion changed to frustration. I don't understand what I'm supposed to say on the thread if I can't say who I think is who. Can I say, "Let's don't lynch Llama"? Without giving an explanation? If I give one, is it infodumping? i.e. "Let's don't lynch Llama because I think he's good"? Can I say why I think he's good? i.e. "Let's don't lynch Llama because I think he's good because I think he wrote the Eliz Donner letter"?


Wait, what?! MP told me it was fine as long as I say that it is what I think. So confused.

[thellama73]

I approve of all those "let's not lynch llama" statements, and hope you will continue saying them.

[Tangrowth]

You can, Zomb, some people just think it's not good to go around and say "so and so is probably this civ and here's why!" and stuff like that. Llama and others will argue that the baddies can figure it out for themselves, so it depends on your perspective.

You're allowed to say you think whatever you want for whatever reason, you just have to be mindful that information you dump in the thread is readable by civilians and baddies.

If Llama were to come under heat, you could say you believe he is civilian and fabricate a reason -- that his voting record has been good, that you agree with him, he appears genuine, etc. etc., whatever you want. That's typically a better way to defend a BTSCmate or someone you believe to be a certain role than saying "I don't think we should lynch Llama because he is such and such role."

Does that make sense?

[thellama73]

You're doing awesome in your first game, Zomba. Don't let it get you down. Even though Elizabeth Donner apparently thinks you're bad.

[Tangrowth]

You're doing awesome in your first game, Zomba. Don't let it get you down. Even though Elizabeth Donner apparently thinks you're bad.

This. You're definitely catching on quicker than most.

[Ricochet]

fingersplints seems to be today's protected person (i.e. not in the poll), yet Tamsen Donner (MM) was just killed. From the role I thought he can activate it during the Day, but I guess not.

[Zombarella]

I approve of all those "let's not lynch llama" statements, and hope you will continue saying them.

Yeah..but now that Eliz Donner put a target on my back...

[Tangrowth]

fingersplints seems to be today's protected person (i.e. not in the poll), yet Tamsen Donner (MM) was just killed. From the role I thought he can activate it during the Day, but I guess not.

It appears Snowman is also not on the poll.

[Ricochet]

You're doing awesome in your first game, Zomba. Don't let it get you down. Even though Elizabeth Donner apparently thinks you're bad.

This. You're definitely catching on quicker than most.

*sobs internally as the now eclipsed first gamer*

[Ricochet]

fingersplints seems to be today's protected person (i.e. not in the poll), yet Tamsen Donner (MM) was just killed. From the role I thought he can activate it during the Day, but I guess not.

It appears Snowman is also not on the poll.

well two removals don't make sense (except if Secrets)

[Tangrowth]

I approve of all those "let's not lynch llama" statements, and hope you will continue saying them.

Yeah..but now that Eliz Donner put a target on my back...

It's mafia; people are going to suspect you at some point.

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm certainly not looking your direction today.

[S~V~S]

Zomba, I was not trying to discourage you. I was just saying that in general discussing who is what civvie role is not done. For the most part, yeah, the baddies can figure it out. But more than once when i was bad something someone said in thread got was a "Eureka" moment about who to NK.

It was advice, not a criticism

[S~V~S]

Linki~ Rox may not have put Splints on the poll since she is a replacement. Sometimes hosts do that.

[Zombarella]

You can, Zomb, some people just think it's not good to go around and say "so and so is probably this civ and here's why!" and stuff like that. Llama and others will argue that the baddies can figure it out for themselves, so it depends on your perspective.

You're allowed to say you think whatever you want for whatever reason, you just have to be mindful that information you dump in the thread is readable by civilians and baddies.

If Llama were to come under heat, you could say you believe he is civilian and fabricate a reason -- that his voting record has been good, that you agree with him, he appears genuine, etc. etc., whatever you want. That's typically a better way to defend a BTSCmate or someone you believe to be a certain role than saying "I don't think we should lynch Llama because he is such and such role."

Does that make sense?

Yes it does. In a normal game. In this game though, since the baddies have BTSC, they know who almost all of the civies are anyway. Plus, it seems like everyone is getting really hung up on accusations and defenses without explanations. How do I accuse/defend with an explanation and without one (especially if the my explanation is based on facts re. the character roles)?

[Ricochet]

Linki~ Rox may not have put Splints on the poll since she is a replacement. Sometimes hosts do that.

Could be, but as far as I understood, they're exempt from DL/NK on the first day only.

[Zombarella]

Zomba, I was not trying to discourage you. I was just saying that in general discussing who is what civvie role is not done. For the most part, yeah, the baddies can figure it out. But more than once when i was bad something someone said in thread got was a "Eureka" moment about who to NK.

It was advice, not a criticism

I appreciate the help. Thank you. I'll do my best going forward.

[thellama73]

You can, Zomb, some people just think it's not good to go around and say "so and so is probably this civ and here's why!" and stuff like that. Llama and others will argue that the baddies can figure it out for themselves, so it depends on your perspective.

You're allowed to say you think whatever you want for whatever reason, you just have to be mindful that information you dump in the thread is readable by civilians and baddies.

If Llama were to come under heat, you could say you believe he is civilian and fabricate a reason -- that his voting record has been good, that you agree with him, he appears genuine, etc. etc., whatever you want. That's typically a better way to defend a BTSCmate or someone you believe to be a certain role than saying "I don't think we should lynch Llama because he is such and such role."

Does that make sense?

Yes it does. In a normal game. In this game though, since the baddies have BTSC, they know who almost all of the civies are anyway. Plus, it seems like everyone is getting really hung up on accusations and defenses without explanations. How do I accuse/defend with an explanation and without one (especially if the my explanation is based on facts re. the character roles)?

Baddies have BTSC in every games. The civs usually don't. The point is that a person who is an identified civ role has little chance of getting lynched, and makes a good target for the baddies.

[Roxy]

Linki~ Rox may not have put Splints on the poll since she is a replacement. Sometimes hosts do that.

Fixed! Thanks guys!

[thellama73]

Now, at least, we have something to go off of. Epi was Weather, so he has a partner out there. Who in the thread looks like Epi's partner? I shall have to reread.

[Tangrowth]

Llama, the first player that comes to mind that defending Epi was Trice.

You can, Zomb, some people just think it's not good to go around and say "so and so is probably this civ and here's why!" and stuff like that. Llama and others will argue that the baddies can figure it out for themselves, so it depends on your perspective.

You're allowed to say you think whatever you want for whatever reason, you just have to be mindful that information you dump in the thread is readable by civilians and baddies.

If Llama were to come under heat, you could say you believe he is civilian and fabricate a reason -- that his voting record has been good, that you agree with him, he appears genuine, etc. etc., whatever you want. That's typically a better way to defend a BTSCmate or someone you believe to be a certain role than saying "I don't think we should lynch Llama because he is such and such role."

Does that make sense?

Yes it does. In a normal game. In this game though, since the baddies have BTSC, they know who almost all of the civies are anyway. Plus, it seems like everyone is getting really hung up on accusations and defenses without explanations. How do I accuse/defend with an explanation and without one (especially if the my explanation is based on facts re. the character roles)?

Baddies very typically always have BTSC. Civilians do not.

Also, there are two baddie teams, so they don't know who each other are, but yes that's true. But they may not know who "Elizabeth Donner" is or any specific civilian; they just know all the players on their team are likely civilians.

What do you mean by your question here? I'm not sure I follow.

[Zombarella]

Linki~ Rox may not have put Splints on the poll since she is a replacement. Sometimes hosts do that.

Fixed! Thanks guys!

I now think that Snowman is not bad.

[Zombarella]

Llama, the first player that comes to mind that defending Epi was Trice.

You can, Zomb, some people just think it's not good to go around and say "so and so is probably this civ and here's why!" and stuff like that. Llama and others will argue that the baddies can figure it out for themselves, so it depends on your perspective.

You're allowed to say you think whatever you want for whatever reason, you just have to be mindful that information you dump in the thread is readable by civilians and baddies.

If Llama were to come under heat, you could say you believe he is civilian and fabricate a reason -- that his voting record has been good, that you agree with him, he appears genuine, etc. etc., whatever you want. That's typically a better way to defend a BTSCmate or someone you believe to be a certain role than saying "I don't think we should lynch Llama because he is such and such role."

Does that make sense?

Yes it does. In a normal game. In this game though, since the baddies have BTSC, they know who almost all of the civies are anyway. Plus, it seems like everyone is getting really hung up on accusations and defenses without explanations. How do I accuse/defend with an explanation and without one (especially if the my explanation is based on facts re. the character roles)?

Baddies very typically always have BTSC. Civilians do not.

Also, there are two baddie teams, so they don't know who each other are, but yes that's true. But they may not know who "Elizabeth Donner" is or any specific civilian; they just know all the players on their team are likely civilians.

What do you mean by your question here? I'm not sure I follow.

Just saying that we will lunch civies if we don't share info. My info doesn't help if civies don't believe me. How much explanation can I provide to support my position without breaking rules/crossing the line into bad form?

[Ricochet]

By making a strong, credible case against someone you think is bad. Isn't that the essence of this game?