Death Note Mafia [END]

[birdwithteeth11]

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

[DharmaHelper]

While I'm here I also want to stress that a "vanilla" lynch affords Light's team and the mafia an advantage not just in their vote manipulations and teamvoting and so on, but in that L is vulnerable to that +5 deathshot from Ide. At least with L buffing/nerfing votes, he can afford himself some protection against Ide. Does that make sense? Again, it is a very tough nut to crack, a question of meta almost. Does L try and keep Ide off his list? Does Light try and put Ide *ON* the list, at the risk of weakening his list by buffing a civ? It's all very interesting to me.

[Marmot]

Also-- just an observation, MM, don't you always find out the hard way that votes aren't or are changeable? Like the last 3-4 games I remember play with you, you've done that.

Someone has to figure it out.

[birdwithteeth11]

While I'm here I also want to stress that a "vanilla" lynch affords Light's team and the mafia an advantage not just in their vote manipulations and teamvoting and so on, but in that L is vulnerable to that +5 deathshot from Ide. At least with L buffing/nerfing votes, he can afford himself some protection against Ide. Does that make sense? Again, it is a very tough nut to crack, a question of meta almost. Does L try and keep Ide off his list? Does Light try and put Ide *ON* the list, at the risk of weakening his list by buffing a civ? It's all very interesting to me.

That's the part that's really making me question this theory. Because I would think L could use this to his advantage, and keep people he thinks might be Ide off his list. Makes him a bit more protected that way.

[DharmaHelper]

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

[birdwithteeth11]

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

[Made]

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

Here's the meta that's bouncing around in my head.

L will always be motivated to put people s/he trust on the list of potential voters
Light will be motivated to do the same, but the caveat being that if it becomes apparent that Light and L trust the same person, L will be motivated to remove the person who got two votes off his/her list.

Light will try to gamble with this, by occasionally adding people L trust to her/his list intentionally. L will have to keep this in mind.

Another thing to consider is Light adding people who are misinformed to they list because the vote will still help them. This situation right here could lead to a lot of misinformed civvies playing a very key role in this game.

There's also the town reaction side of this system. While town (presumably) won't have access to whose votes actually count, If the popular vote doesn't win, we as a town gain a lot of information, especially if votes are very spread out. This info can then be spent two ways (that i can think off anyways)
1. People who voted for a less popular option and one and dangerous because Light has a higher possibility of trusting them
2. L trust an individual and/or wanted a certain individual to be killed.


One key factor that i have yet to account for in this system is when L and Light make their list.
If they can do it any time before the lynch, then we have a system similar to Gerrymandering where Light and L can decided who is lynched based on where votes land.

Another meta effecting thing I didn't even think about till just now: Light and L and going to favor trusting people who trust as it ensures their survival.



The above is just what i could think about, there are so many different strategies that can be used to make this very interesting, like maybe pretending to trust one person in hopes to goat inclusion from L and Light just to double cross them with a vote that is now powerful.

but yeah, fun stuff and lots of it.

[Made]

EDWOP just now: Light and L are going to favor trusting people who trust as it ensures their survival.

[Made]

EDWOP just now: Light and L are going to favor trusting people who trust them as it ensures their survival.

[DharmaHelper]

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

[Spacedaisy]

High posting could be beneficial as it would probably force Kira to be more active, thus eliminating the likelihood of a baddie flying under the radar. But in the downside it could encourage people lynching high posters which seems counterproductive to the spirit of the game.

holy crap good call.
I think this right here is the best possible situation for us. While L/Light sound interesting, baddies can't fly under the radar if they need to talk to be able to save their teammates.


that all said i need to read the rest of the thread, but i think this is a very solid point.

You seem to be ignoring the second half. I think it's a bad idea because it will likely lead to lynching a bunch of high posters. Anyone who is active will automatically be suspected.

I am personally looking at either Normal or Light/L

[Snowman]

I love that Ricochet is already ruffling SVS's feathers. This is going to be a good game.

[Snowman]

Sorry for the delay in getting here. When I finally realized things were hoppin in here, I started reading the 2000 pages of backstory.

So...who's getting lynched?

[DharmaHelper]

Sorry for the delay in getting here. When I finally realized things were hoppin in here, I started reading the 2000 pages of backstory.

So...who's getting lynched?

Any reason you voted for the Early voters lynch option?

[Zombarella]

Hokey smokes Bullwinkle! They told me that a regular mafia game would be different than the Donner game and who boy were they right! I've been reading for like...like...8 days!

I voted normal because everyone is right about high poster, low poster, early voter, late voter, and secret ballot restricting real information. I like the L/Light option but this is only my second game and the thought of a tricky twist is giving me PTSD (shout out Donners!).

Voting normal.

Also, @ Rico - calm the heck down! You make too fun for everyone to mess with you.

[Zombarella]

Sorry for the delay in getting here. When I finally realized things were hoppin in here, I started reading the 2000 pages of backstory.

So...who's getting lynched?

Any reason you voted for the Early voters lynch option?

He LOVES to vote early. I'm sure that's why.

[birdwithteeth11]

Alright, Made and DH. You talked me into it. Especially you, DH, with this post:

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

It's not factually known information, but it could indeed help us draw some useful conclusions.

Votes L/Light Influenced Lynch

[Turnip Head]

I voted for L/Light influence. The more I think about it, the more I think it's the best way to catch Kira/Light. And it would be fun to do something different

[boo]

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

Except if roles have lynch manipulation included in their secrets, it would be unreasonable to undo all of that with the effects of a D0 poll making those powers worthless. It seems to me you're assuming stuff like the +5 vote would somehow be negated in the L/Light choice, but I don't see why you think that's the case since including lynch manipulation in roles only to allow it to become potentially irrelevant doesn't seem like something MP would do. So the known quantity wouldn't be the case at all, it would just be something else to mess up with understanding lynch results.

I also think you're putting way to much trust in one civvie. If L ends up trusting bad information, going after the wrong people, trusting the wrong people, etc, going with L/Light would let Light run every lynch however they want. The whole advantage civvies have over baddies is numbers, and while that's less true in this game than a typical one, it is still the case assuming the two teams of 7 need each other dead to win. Letting L have the kind of power that option would give them would essentially undo the numerical advantage and instead rely entirely upon their judgement, and especially in the early game, that would likely lead to the death of civvies if there are even small errors in judgement on L's part. Then, unlike a normal game where civvies botching early lynches is normal and can be recovered from, once a few are out of, Light can pretty much run lynches however they like, especially if they can sus out who L is (which, imo, would be easier than normally figuring out a persons role, since they'll have the most accurate idea of both lists) and then spin that to their advantage by not killing L until as many other civvies are dead as possible.

All that to say, I have more trust in the masses than I do letting lynches be decided 50/50 by a baddie and a civvie, with the baddie imo holding the information advantage, especially in the early game.

I think it really needs to come down to people putting themselves in the shoes of the two roles. If I were L and the option won, I wouldn't be pleased with the responsibility of having my judgement become so important to the point of other civvies judgement and choices becoming irrelevant at my whim (not just civvies ofc, but it would be mostly blind luck to get the right people on my list or not). On the other hand, as Light, I would be more than happy to have that kind of early game power, since I can effectively use it to keep myself from getting lynched as long as I can get through D1 and get proper reads on the minds of people, and I really don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't one of 7 out of 27 roles.

[Turnip Head]

I guess we would be putting a lot of trust in L... But that might be exactly what it takes to win.

[boo]

I guess we would be putting a lot of trust in L... But that might be exactly what it takes to win.

It could work, my point is simply that normal voting is balanced around giving both sides a fair chance of winning, while (imo obviously), the L/Light option inherently gives the advantage to the side that can make the best use of it, and I think the mafia in general benefit far more from controlling things behind the scenes since that's what they're all about.

[DharmaHelper]

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

Except if roles have lynch manipulation included in their secrets, it would be unreasonable to undo all of that with the effects of a D0 poll making those powers worthless. It seems to me you're assuming stuff like the +5 vote would somehow be negated in the L/Light choice, but I don't see why you think that's the case since including lynch manipulation in roles only to allow it to become potentially irrelevant doesn't seem like something MP would do. So the known quantity wouldn't be the case at all, it would just be something else to mess up with understanding lynch results.

I also think you're putting way to much trust in one civvie. If L ends up trusting bad information, going after the wrong people, trusting the wrong people, etc, going with L/Light would let Light run every lynch however they want. The whole advantage civvies have over baddies is numbers, and while that's less true in this game than a typical one, it is still the case assuming the two teams of 7 need each other dead to win. Letting L have the kind of power that option would give them would essentially undo the numerical advantage and instead rely entirely upon their judgement, and especially in the early game, that would likely lead to the death of civvies if there are even small errors in judgement on L's part. Then, unlike a normal game where civvies botching early lynches is normal and can be recovered from, once a few are out of, Light can pretty much run lynches however they like, especially if they can sus out who L is (which, imo, would be easier than normally figuring out a persons role, since they'll have the most accurate idea of both lists) and then spin that to their advantage by not killing L until as many other civvies are dead as possible.

All that to say, I have more trust in the masses than I do letting lynches be decided 50/50 by a baddie and a civvie, with the baddie imo holding the information advantage, especially in the early game.

I think it really needs to come down to people putting themselves in the shoes of the two roles. If I were L and the option won, I wouldn't be pleased with the responsibility of having my judgement become so important to the point of other civvies judgement and choices becoming irrelevant at my whim (not just civvies ofc, but it would be mostly blind luck to get the right people on my list or not). On the other hand, as Light, I would be more than happy to have that kind of early game power, since I can effectively use it to keep myself from getting lynched as long as I can get through D1 and get proper reads on the minds of people, and I really don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't one of 7 out of 27 roles.

If L works out who Ide is, or at least who Ide is NOT, and has people who support him/don't suspect him in the thread, buffing their votes by placing them on the list will help negate Ide's vote should Ide decide to vote for L. That's how I view it, anyway. And giving Light the ability to make the entire mafia uberstrong voters doesn't seem like something MP would do willy nilly either.

My point is exactly that. Light and probably some other people have secret vote manipulation and therefore carry an advantage. the L/Light list mechanic forces Light to have to think and rethink and puts a wrench in some of that manipulation by valuing/devaluing votes. It also allows L and the civvies to buff their own votes. Don't forget, Light has to put HALF the list of players on his list. He has to. Which means even if he does have BTSC with his team eventually, more often than not he's likely to buff at least a few civvies in the early stages of things.

[Turnip Head]

Even if L doesn't figure out exactly who Ide is, letting L decide which votes count would help protect him from the +5 hit.

[boo]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

[boo]

Even if L doesn't figure out exactly who Ide is, letting L decide which votes count would help protect him from the +5 hit.

Which just brings us back to which of the two would have an easier time making the right judgement calls bts, since anything L does can be screwed up if Light is on their game.

[DharmaHelper]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

[Long Con]

I can see both sides of it. I'm happy with my vote, but won't be disappointed if normal lynch wins either.

Ultimately I understand if a normal lynch wins out, But I'm very hopeful that it doesn't. Every bit of me wants this game to be challenging and unique and fun and I'm literally electric with excitement at the idea of that L/Light mechanic.

As I was reading through, I was glad to see this post, because I feel the same way and I thought maybe Normal would win out. I plan to vote this way, but I need to do a more complete reading of roles first, so I'm fully informed.

[boo]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

[boo]

Not to mention the other major flaw. MP is giving choice here. If we all decided to be insane and voted nihilistic, it would of course be unbalanced, because that's exactly what we would have signed up for. Letting people choose is all the balance MP needs to apply to this situation, and your expecting more than that could really blow up in your face.

[Zombarella]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.


For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

Your assessment is astute. I wonder if those you are arguing against understand your logic, agree with it, and are fine with it because they are in fact mafia...
Also, don't give the baddies good ideas.

[DharmaHelper]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

Assuming Light can A) Find and B) Successfully NK L

How does L making poor judgement calls early translate into those two things being any more/ any less likely? I disagree that mafia are somehow going to be "better" at this because it happens outside of the thread. I also disagree that this is a strictly outside of the thread occurrence. As I've said it may take some legwork but the lynch votes can be used to figure out who was on what list if any, and that information can be used to damage Light.

[boo]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

Assuming Light can A) Find and B) Successfully NK L

How does L making poor judgement calls early translate into those two things being any more/ any less likely? I disagree that mafia are somehow going to be "better" at this because it happens outside of the thread. I also disagree that this is a strictly outside of the thread occurrence. As I've said it may take some legwork but the lynch votes can be used to figure out who was on what list if any, and that information can be used to damage Light.

Yes.

It doesn't. L making poor judgement calls mean Light doesn't need to kill them. L making good judgement calls will be reflected by the result of the lynches, and I believe would make it easier to find L. Killing them would then just be a matter of timing.

I don't agree with the idea that it would be more useful to the civs and help them find Light. They can't know who put who on which list or any of that, so unless Light or their started BTSC partner got lynched, I don't see what information you could expect to get from an L/Light controlled lynch that would put you in a better situation than a lynch decided everyone equally (once manipulation is accounted for, which I think is easier without the list further muddying things up).

[boo]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.


For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

Your assessment is astute. I wonder if those you are arguing against understand your logic, agree with it, and are fine with it because they are in fact mafia...
Also, don't give the baddies good ideas.

Could be. But I doubt it. The mafia play here if they wanted the L/Light option would be to let the early supporters support it, and then swoop in and agree with those supports without paying attention to the other side of the discussion. At least, that would be the mafia play if BTSC for them weren't limited. I also think it depends on the person. I'm not surprised any of the people who like the L/Light option like it, and am more surprised by some of the votes already placed elsewhere since those feel more out of character to me.

[DharmaHelper]

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

Assuming Light can A) Find and B) Successfully NK L

How does L making poor judgement calls early translate into those two things being any more/ any less likely? I disagree that mafia are somehow going to be "better" at this because it happens outside of the thread. I also disagree that this is a strictly outside of the thread occurrence. As I've said it may take some legwork but the lynch votes can be used to figure out who was on what list if any, and that information can be used to damage Light.

Yes.

It doesn't. L making poor judgement calls mean Light doesn't need to kill them. L making good judgement calls will be reflected by the result of the lynches, and I believe would make it easier to find L. Killing them would then just be a matter of timing.

I don't agree with the idea that it would be more useful to the civs and help them find Light. They can't know who put who on which list or any of that, so unless Light or their started BTSC partner got lynched, I don't see what information you could expect to get from an L/Light controlled lynch that would put you in a better situation than a lynch decided everyone equally (once manipulation is accounted for, which I think is easier without the list further muddying things up).

What I mean is it is a stepping stone. It is another piece of the puzzle that can be added to other evidence to form cases. Obviously on its own it isn't going to yield 100% results, but i think that again, it has the potential to be a very useful tool in gathering information.

And I'm still not getting how it puts L in Lights crosshairs. Light only knows (as far as I can tell) who he puts on HIS list. So, to figure out the other half of that equation (who L put on his list, and who ended up on neither list or both) Light is at just as much of a disadvantage as L. And this assumes that Light and L are not careful in who they place on their lists. There are measures in place and tactics that can be used to conceal L's motives. Taking that into consideration, finding L is just as difficult for Light as finding Light would be for the civs.

The question of balance comes up a lot. Do you honestly think MP would even give us the option of picking a lynch mechanic that all but guaranteed L would be found and killed immediately? That does not seem balanced to me.

[thellama73]

Guys, I finished episode 25 of Death Note, but I have to leave the rest for tomorrow,Presidents Day. (I wish there were a Grover Cleveland Day. Actually, I wish there were two non-consecutive Grover Cleveland Days.)

[boo]

I don't know DH, I'm starting to think you're just reaching for things even you don't believe because you'd like to be right and win the argument.

Or I'm just tired and no longer following you.

Either way, I've said everything I actually have to say without repeating myself (and then some :P), and now we've reached a point where I feel like we're going in circles and just giving people things to disinterestedly skim read. But I think we've hammered out both options and why they work and don't to the fullest extent that I have anything useful to add, so until other people have new ideas to share I think I'm done.

[Tangrowth]

Guys, I finished episode 25 of Death Note, but I have to leave the rest for tomorrow,Presidents Day. (I wish there were a Grover Cleveland Day. Actually, I wish there were two non-consecutive Grover Cleveland Days.)

Woah, seriously? You started earlier today, yes? So I presume you've been watching it all day. Then again, since you are ill, there's no better remedy.

I also presume you like it?

[DharmaHelper]

I don't know DH, I'm starting to think you're just reaching for things even you don't believe because you'd like to be right and win the argument.

Or I'm just tired and no longer following you.

Either way, I've said everything I actually have to say without repeating myself (and then some :P), and now we've reached a point where I feel like we're going in circles and just giving people things to disinterestedly skim read. But I think we've hammered out both options and why they work and don't to the fullest extent that I have anything useful to add, so until other people have new ideas to share I think I'm done.

Alright man, fair enough. For what its worth I'm just trying to be thorough. I did enjoy getting to hammer out the options with you.

[thellama73]

Guys, I finished episode 25 of Death Note, but I have to leave the rest for tomorrow,Presidents Day. (I wish there were a Grover Cleveland Day. Actually, I wish there were two non-consecutive Grover Cleveland Days.)

Woah, seriously? You started earlier today, yes? So I presume you've been watching it all day. Then again, since you are ill, there's no better remedy.

I also presume you like it?

It's a good cartoon, but not as good as King of the Hill.

[thellama73]

Also, somebody laugh at my Grover Cleveland joke. It is hilarious.

[Tangrowth]

Guys, I finished episode 25 of Death Note, but I have to leave the rest for tomorrow,Presidents Day. (I wish there were a Grover Cleveland Day. Actually, I wish there were two non-consecutive Grover Cleveland Days.)

Woah, seriously? You started earlier today, yes? So I presume you've been watching it all day. Then again, since you are ill, there's no better remedy.

I also presume you like it?

It's a good cartoon, but not as good as King of the Hill.

I should have expected this response.

[Tangrowth]

Also, somebody laugh at my Grover Cleveland joke. It is hilarious.

I thought it was awesome.

[thellama73]

Also, somebody laugh at my Grover Cleveland joke. It is hilarious.

I thought it was awesome.

[Marmot]

Also, somebody laugh at my Grover Cleveland joke. It is hilarious.

I lol'd in real life if that makes you feel better. Here's a smiley to show it.

[thellama73]

I wonder if I can play this entire game only using Grover Cleveland memes.

[Marmot]

I wonder if I can play this entire game only using Grover Cleveland memes.

Or you could start a presidential meme game mafia.

[juliets]

omg, I went out to dinner and when i returned this thread had exploded. I have read through it once but tbh i don't think I fully understand the two sides of the argument. I'm going tell my self its because I'm tired and it's late and get up in the morning and read everything again before i decide which way to vote. There are good points on both sides of the argument for the L/Light choice and the normal choice (I'm not considering any of the other choices).

[Long Con]

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

[thellama73]

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

They are gods of death, and the death notes originally come from their realm.

[DharmaHelper]

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.