I cannot deny, boo, that you are making very good (counter-)points, to the point of making me want to back away from Snowman :P , even just for the fact that I can't counter with a criticism that's just as strong, but allow me to just cling on to a few things a bit more. Also, please pardon me for saying this, but explaining / assuming so much about his behaviour, in the actual absence of any reasonable rebuttal from Snowman, I tend to see it as a sort of a disservice to the whole discussion about whether or not he's suspicious. If I were Snowman and would indeed have a shady alignment, it would be easy for me to come now and say "Yes! Boo's views are exactly what I meant / was trying to say / was trying to do." and then of course we'd come off as meanies for pursuing further a case on him.boo wrote:BTSC, if he's only played when he's had it, that for me pretty much entirely explains why he would be more withdrawn.Ricochet wrote:I'm curious to hear as to why Snowman's experience level would change the tone, content, meaning and whatever else of his posts here. I'm genuinely open to counter-arguments - not least from Snowman himself, of course - especially given that I'm new myself (but at the same time I see myself as giving my equal best in all my games so far). What Epignosis pointed out, I think, was that he was quite the active and astute newbie to being with, compared to which his style here can indeed be less involved, but it can equally be a choice or tactic put into execution. Not to mention that another player in equal status with him - Zomberella - was almost voted by a more experienced player on her first day, plus is on several other players top lists for her D1 behaviour.
Outside of that, it's the "I'm happy to see so many involved, but how do you find so much to talk about when literally nothing has happened yet? The most earth-shattering event so far is the realization that Russ hasn't posted anything." line from him that people seem so up in arms about. That doesn't read baddie to me, that reads like a genuine question from someone who isn't really sure how to go about finding every little thing someone says suspicious and able to discuss in that way.
Then the bandwagon comment? There are veteran players who say (and honestly mean it) stuff like that and take less flak for it. There are plenty of players who don't say it but who it's obviously true of who take less flak for it. It is the kind of honesty Snowman should probably learn to keep in check, because nobody likes it even if we all know there are people who decide pretty much every D1 vote in the same way, but it isn't the kind of honesty I look at and see a baddie blunder.
I'm also not even sure he understands what we mean when we use the term bandwagon, because when llama called him out on it (asking "Waiting for a bandwagon to hop onto?"), his response was, "If the right wagon comes along, sure! has your wagon already been through all nine pages that follow his post?"). That just makes me think he thinks a bandwagon is any suspicion he agrees with and decides to vote on, not a suspicion he's ambivalent about but doesn't care enough to really think through where to place his vote.
So... would I like to see more from Snowman? Yes. But even if he wasn't a new player I would find the arguments for lynching him to be some serious grasping at straws. As it is... I have to question the motivation of people who want to lynch him, because I think many of them are the ones looking to bandwagon.
and there's a bunch of linki
The BTSC issue is a thorny issue especially the way I've personally been subjected to it. In the Film game, due to the level of my performance, I've often found myself actually not being trusted by the other players, to the point of most believing "surely Rico has BTSC [and, incidentally, must be a baddie], no way he can play like this on his own". So I see the tendency to view a new player as needing assistance, if he has BTSC, or being naturally more withdrawn, if he doesn't have any kind of BTSC. That's perfectly fine, but I still wonder if it actually applies to Snowman. He indeed very likely had either civ-BTSC or bad-BTSC in the Donner game. Did he receive guidance from teammates? It's likely, but can't be verified (yet). Has he received guidance in taking a stance of suspicion against Epignosis in that game? It's possible, but can't be verified (yet). But the part where he has made astute observations about what mechanisms could we use in that particular game is most important for me, because I don't see why he would have been influenced or would have needed guidance to do such an act. And if he was able to adapt to the game and those observations on his own back there, then it is his exact opposite attitude here, where it is by default assumed he is on his own, that's strikingly opposite - and that is what I find odd and for which I tend, at least, to hold him accountable for. For instance, by his own standards, he could have actually joined the D0 discussions with his own view, analysis or such. Instead, he "nah'd" the whole thing and voted an odd option without reasoning. Then, one day later, he "nah'd" the whole Trice-Ace feud and, arguably, every else. That is uncharacteristic from him, I believe, no matter from which angle.
I also tend to believe that Snowman's incriminating post sounds bad, instead of wrong. By this I mean I don't find his post to have been genuinely withdrawn or detached. As a catch-up or a post stating current personal involvement, it makes him look slightly worse than others who have said much more casually stuff like "I'll try to catch up", "I'll try to make sense of what's happening" etc. As I've said in my wrap-up D1 post, everyone has made various efforts to adapt to the flux and level of gaming so far. Snowman's own such effort simply left too much to desire. I'll quote my paragraph again:
I don't know, maybe I am too harsh, but for me his comment was less "I can't catch up to all that's happened or don't see the point in addressing everything that's been discussed" and more "I don't acknowledge anything relevant so far". His incriminating post wasn't even his first catch-up post. He did have one on D0 and it was much more reasonable.Ricochet wrote:. Efforts to catch-up/adapt/keep up with the game have been various around here, but the lowpost-type "I didn't pick up much" is the least convincing type of reaction, imo.
Also, I am personally not blaming him for his "bandwagon" comment, I am blaming him for bandwagoning, especially after seeing "no side worth taken" in the Ace-Trice feud, but doing so after all (voting Trice) and also doing so right after replying to llama's accusation of waiting to bandwagon. Even Trice noted right away that he did the opposite of proving Llama wrong.Snowman wrote:Sorry for the delay in getting here. When I finally realized things were hoppin in here, I started reading the 2000 pages of backstory.
This took me 30 minutes to write, god damn me.
You know how I feel about you. 
I know.
I am sorry so, MP, cause I had bags of time before I replaced in. I promise I will give this game the time and respect it deserves when I get the chance!
