Death Note Mafia [END]

[bea]

The Story So Far...

Epi was getting rowdy, accusing people left and right, but never voting for them to be lynched. People noticed, people began to accuse him, when out of the blue, Llama swooped in, accusing Snowman with loud, frequent, baseless posts, beginning with:

Boo doesn't think it's role related so I'm curious what he thinks it is.

Boo has already answered this question. Why not ask something new?

Because I'm still interested in this discussion. What do you think I should be talking about?

Something less boring than Russ, which has been covered to death and which only he knows the answer to. Boring, boring, boring!

And as we all know...

(huge picture about boredom deleted due to size)

Why not talk about Snowman? Now he is interesting...

As compelling an argument as that was (and frankly, I must agree with that one point alone), he persisted for exactly one bazillion posts, quoting himself, using circular logic, and overall making baseless accusations, counting on rote repetition to serve as a suitable replacement for logic or evidence.

Llama then began to craft his own "evidence", which amounted to 1) Snowman doesn't post much (no one posts as much as Llama, but I've posted everyday since the game began), 2) Snowman hasn't defended himself, and therefore, is guilty (there was nothing to contradict, because Llama never presented any evidence, nor made any specific accusations), and 3) Snowman makes too many jokes (that's not what yo momma said).

Finally, Llama's saber-rattling elevated to the point where he was almost killed for it in a near-three way tie that ultimately ended in BWT's lynch. He dialed it waaaaaaaay back, leaving room for Zombaddie to take the reins in the anti-Snowman campaign, possibly spurred on by a recent death in another game. Contrary to Llama, Zombad actually offered some evidence--Snowman is sneaky.

Yes I am. I'm a high school physics teacher IRL, and it is to my benefit to think one step ahead of 160 little juvenile delinquents. I know when you are texting during class, I know when you are cheating off of your friend--and I know when you're targeting low-hanging fruit in order to delay and distract attention away from your Kira buddies.

Based on their actual behavior, I think the clear choices for the lynch are:

Llama
Zombad
Russ
Epi

Vote for me if you will. But doing so will further strengthen and embolden the Kiras, and you won't get anymore of this:

While I enjoyed the elephant gif a lot. I disagree with your list. I've read russ as actually saying pretty sane and decent things since he started posting and I have fairly good feels about most of the others on your list.

As I'm reading it - the only reason you suspect Zombra is because she is convinced you are bad. Is there something else there you are seeing that I'm too dense to get? From where I'm sitting - she's reading pretty up front and genuine.

I'm curious what they have in common - in your eyes - that links them as kira's together outside of their suspicion of you.

Do you find anything at all curious about the people who don't suspect you? Or even the people who seem to defend you? Does it not strike you odd that in a game with such little BTS that you have such vocal defenders? Aren't you just the least bit worried about the idea that they might be kissing up to you so that you don't suspect them? Or so - if you are lynched - they look good for defending you?

What about the people dropping off the radar - like DP and Bass and Made?

[Turnip Head]

Do you find anything at all curious about the people who don't suspect you? Or even the people who seem to defend you? Does it not strike you odd that in a game with such little BTS that you have such vocal defenders? Aren't you just the least bit worried about the idea that they might be kissing up to you so that you don't suspect them? Or so - if you are lynched - they look good for defending you?

This doesn't make sense to me Bea. There's really no such thing as civ cred in this game. You can't "look good" for defending Snowman, just like you can't look good for accusing him, no matter which way he flips.

Who do you think is kissing up to Snowman, bea?

[Turnip Head]

Epi understood that there's no civ cred in this game, btw, maybe that factored into his decision to not try as hard :P

[Snowman]

Only reason I suspected Russ was the whole conspicuous absence thing from the beginning of the game. I may be wrong, but it seemed like a baddie tye thing to do, and contrary to his behavior in the earlier game I'd played with him.

Zomberella is guilty by association with Llama. Reading in past posts reveals a level of complicitness that I think goes beyond a common threat, I think they are co-conspirators.

Epi is suspect because of the points that Zomberella brought up earlier about him working to build a mob to lynch a particular person, and then backing out of the deal personally. If there is a baddie power that encourages you to build a posse of some type and then llynch someone, I bet he has it.

As far as supporters, I believe they have my best interest at heart, I return the favor. I would say the greatest likelihood is that they have powers relate to my existence.

Too sleepy, eyes keep closing. More tomorrow.

Cheers,

[Turnip Head]

Then what do you make of Zomberella's vote for Llama on Day 2??

[bea]

dunno if anyone is TH - I just know my own personal paranoia kicks in when people put too much faith in my goodness with little reasoning.

And quite possibly you are right TH - maybe there isn't cred in this game per say, but you can't deny that a Kiria is still trying to look as in thread civ friendly as possible.

I know if I were in Snowman's position, and I had the role I do have, I'd be worried about why some people are so certian I deserve the benifit of the doubt. But maybe I'm just super paranoid.

And while there's no "civ cred" in the standard sense - you can't tell me that if snowman gets lynched and turns up a kira or sympathizer that it won't change how LOTS of people look at zombra or llama. Because it will. Just like you flat out asked zombra to take responsibility if snowman flipped detective. If someone is going to change their opinion of the lynch leaders in that sort of lynch based on how he flips - why WOULDN'T the same people look at the people that supported him in the same context?

Snowman - thank you for the response. I disagree with you but I appreciate your response.

linki - good question TH.

[bea]

ok - now I have to drag my ass to bed.

Tomorrow morning comes too early to the girl who worked nights all week.

[Turnip Head]

At this point I'm inclined to agree that Snowman is acting pretty suspicious. Maybe Zomberella was able to see in one post what it took me twelve to see, but I think there's something fishy in how Snowman has approached the players who suspect him. He's dismissed and discredited, then finished up by calling out every single one of them as Kira even when that accusation basically makes no sense. I feel like we'd be seeing a different approach if he had a detective role, but to be honest I don't know him all that well, considering this is the first game I've played with him, and that's why I've been hesitant to judge him. I think his responses today have been weak, so I'm okay with his lynch, but what do I know?

That said, I am still just as convinced of Epi's badness, so I will not be changing my vote and I'm even more okay with his lynch.

[Marmot]

At this point I'm inclined to agree that Snowman is acting pretty suspicious. Maybe Zomberella was able to see in one post what it took me twelve to see, but I think there's something fishy in how Snowman has approached the players who suspect him. He's dismissed and discredited, then finished up by calling out every single one of them as Kira even when that accusation basically makes no sense. I feel like we'd be seeing a different approach if he had a detective role, but to be honest I don't know him all that well, considering this is the first game I've played with him, and that's why I've been hesitant to judge him. I think his responses today have been weak, so I'm okay with his lynch, but what do I know?

That said, I am still just as convinced of Epi's badness, so I will not be changing my vote and I'm even more okay with his lynch.

Oh good, I was worried you were going to renege on your early vote.

[Marmot]

And while there's no "civ cred" in the standard sense - you can't tell me that if snowman gets lynched and turns up a kira or sympathizer that it won't change how LOTS of people look at zombra or llama. Because it will. Just like you flat out asked zombra to take responsibility if snowman flipped detective. If someone is going to change their opinion of the lynch leaders in that sort of lynch based on how he flips - why WOULDN'T the same people look at the people that supported him in the same context?

I agree. Based on the current role knowledge, there is no reason for baddies to throw a partner under the bus, so we can only assume that such players are detecitves, or in llamas case, loose cannons.

[Turnip Head]

But not all baddies on the same team have BTSC.

We've been over this

[Marmot]

But not all baddies on the same team have BTSC.

We've been over this

Youre right. i dont think weve been over this tthough, as true as it is.

[Turnip Head]

I'm sure it's been discussed, possibly even more than once, but I can forgive you for missing something in this massive thread.

[Marmot]

[Turnip Head]

I only accept cookies.

[Marmot]

[zeek]

My problem with Epi right now is that MM's case was good. It showed how inconsistent he has been and his responses have done little to convince me he's good. His tone, deflated and dejected, has however. So I'm back and forth on him.

Then we have Snowman. His responses don't seem genuine to me and he doesn't actually seem frustrated by all this, half-heartedly NO U'ing his detractors.

Still a fair amount of time before the lynch ends but, honestly, these guys may be aligned with Kira but I really doubt either is one.

[FZ.]

I feel that too, but you can't ignore the fact that he hasn't followed any of his suspicions

On Day 1, I wasn't going to throw my vote away. On Day 2, I made up my mind at the last second to try to save bwt, because I thought the lynch on him was bullshit, especially supported by some of the "let them defend themselves first" mindset. Snowman had a chance and did not, but poor bwt just came home to find out he was lynched. Bullshit.

If any of you do decide to follow DharmaHelper's vote, I want you to keep in mind a few things. First, he and I argued a bit about accountability, and I argued that some people would try to dodge accountability for their vote. DH said that everyone would be accountable for their votes. However, DH framed it so that anything I did could result in him voting for me (if I voted Russ on Day 1, I was just trying to keep my hands clean, but if I didn't vote Russ, then I wasn't following through on my suspicion). Now he says that he's okay voting me even if I'm not bad because I'm dead weight. I don't get offended by things people say, but that stung a little.

DharmaHelper has freed himself of any responsibility voting for me. He doesn't care if I'm Kira. He just wants me gone. Anyway, if your rationale for voting me is that I'm "dead weight," then what is stopping you from voting Snowman? If I get lynched instead of him, then that means someone who really is not contributing gets another pass, and my game will be over. I think that sucks.

My reasoning is not that you're dead weight, but that you haven't been saying who is suspicious in your eyes. Even now, you say DH wants you gone, and doesn't care what you are. Did you call him a baddie for it? Not that I've seen. There was me, but you've backed off for the last day or so, there's SVS, but you're not going with that too, and of course there was Russ, but nothing happened with that either. Then you say Zombarella isn't good, but I don't see you doing something with that. I am honestly trying to figure out where you stand on people. Who you trust, who you don't, who you think we should lynch- basic mafia stuff. I get being pissed, I do, but you have to move beyond that in order to a. not get lynched and b. actually help the civvies win, if that's what you want.
Don't tell me why I shouldn't vote for you. Tell me who you think I should vote for and why (or who you are going to vote for).

[Ricochet]

Ah, good old anime quality. The cookie on the left doesn't even reach his mouth.

[FZ.]

This is a question that comes up frequently in situations such as this and I want to ask Zomberella:

You seem perfectly content to reap the rewards if Snowman is bad. Would you shoulder the blame if Snowman is good?

How does one really shoulder the blame? Would you want to lynch her if he comes out good? That would only help if she's bad. Not so much if she isn't. In any case, I said I wish BWT was a Kira or at least a Kira supporter, and that I wish I could call that lynch a good one. I settled for a "no civvie" which was what we lynched the day before.

[FZ.]

Ah, good old anime quality. The cookie on the left doesn't even reach his mouth.

[FZ.]

Here it is in case you want to respond to it, Snowmonster.

Made: my case on Snowman is that he said "I don't see discussion coalescing around anyone" on Day 1, which sounded to me like he was waiting for a bandwagon to hop on. Then he cast an easy vote for Trice after his lynch was already a certainty. Then he has been unwilling to post anything of substance to explain himself.

Of course, Llama's armchair psychoanalysis of the use of words like "bandwagon", "team", and "pianist". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes people use words as their intended meaning, without reference to (or knowledge of) their context in this setting. IIRC, someone asked if I was looking for a bandwagon to join, and I joked (gasp) that I would if the right bandwagon came along.

So that's Llama's smoking gun, his big piece of evidence against me. It was clearly a joke, I even posted a big "join the bandwagon" banner.

Back to you, because your deflect and defer Kung Fu is weak. I've responded to your accusation, what about mine. I say you're Kira, your pals are too, and you've invented an anti-Snowman campaign to Wag the Dog and distract from actual Kira hunting. You would have motive, andKira BTSC would provide the type of coordination and cooperation that my some of my detractors seems to enjoy (if even to a small degree).

I say you've avoided direct discussion of your big "bandwagon bombshell" because it's weak as a baby and sounds more and more rediculous with repetition.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have others Trolls that need feeding.

Actually, now that I think of it, I think the best accusation regarding Snowman came from Epi a few days back(seems like he really did contribute ), when he compared the Donner game to this one and how Snowman played that game. And if someone else wants to say that it was a different kind of game and he had BTSC, I'd say again that it doesn't change the nature of a player. If someone is the kind to start pushing people and accuse, he'll do it because that's how he plays. And this is the first time Snowman has really said who he was suspicious of and why, and we're on day 3.
While I really hate that I was probably wrong to defend Snowman (though I started out suspecting him and everyone called me out on it ), I think I'm going to go with Snowman myself this time. His defence is doing nothing to me this time

[FZ.]

At this point I'm inclined to agree that Snowman is acting pretty suspicious. Maybe Zomberella was able to see in one post what it took me twelve to see, but I think there's something fishy in how Snowman has approached the players who suspect him. He's dismissed and discredited, then finished up by calling out every single one of them as Kira even when that accusation basically makes no sense. I feel like we'd be seeing a different approach if he had a detective role, but to be honest I don't know him all that well, considering this is the first game I've played with him, and that's why I've been hesitant to judge him. I think his responses today have been weak, so I'm okay with his lynch, but what do I know?

That said, I am still just as convinced of Epi's badness, so I will not be changing my vote and I'm even more okay with his lynch.

I thought we can't change our votes

I just finished catching up. I just said I'll probably vote for Snowman. But there's another little thing bugging me. He's a smart person, it's easy to see. When everyone accuses you, it's not that smart to point the fingers back at the people pointing them at you. It will just get people to say you're more fishy. The crazy (at least to me) notion, that llama and Zomb are working together makes me think that maybe that's his honest opinions, because he'd have to be a real bad baddie to say stuff like that.

Okay, I'm going

[S~V~S]

I only accept cookies.

The internet is made of pictures of L & cookies. That is all.

dunno if anyone is TH - I just know my own personal paranoia kicks in when people put too much faith in my goodness with little reasoning.

And quite possibly you are right TH - maybe there isn't cred in this game per say, but you can't deny that a Kiria is still trying to look as in thread civ friendly as possible.

I know if I were in Snowman's position, and I had the role I do have, I'd be worried about why some people are so certian I deserve the benifit of the doubt. But maybe I'm just super paranoid.

And while there's no "civ cred" in the standard sense - you can't tell me that if snowman gets lynched and turns up a kira or sympathizer that it won't change how LOTS of people look at zombra or llama. Because it will. Just like you flat out asked zombra to take responsibility if snowman flipped detective. If someone is going to change their opinion of the lynch leaders in that sort of lynch based on how he flips - why WOULDN'T the same people look at the people that supported him in the same context?

Snowman - thank you for the response. I disagree with you but I appreciate your response.

linki - good question TH.

Bea, what does that ^^ mean?

And your tone is confusing me; you sound mad to me. Not necessarily in this post, but in general. As if you think people are picking on Epi specifically.

While I enjoyed the elephant gif a lot. I disagree with your list. I've read russ as actually saying pretty sane and decent things since he started posting and I have fairly good feels about most of the others on your list.

As I'm reading it - the only reason you suspect Zombra is because she is convinced you are bad. Is there something else there you are seeing that I'm too dense to get? From where I'm sitting - she's reading pretty up front and genuine.

I'm curious what they have in common - in your eyes - that links them as kira's together outside of their suspicion of you.

Do you find anything at all curious about the people who don't suspect you? Or even the people who seem to defend you? Does it not strike you odd that in a game with such little BTS that you have such vocal defenders? Aren't you just the least bit worried about the idea that they might be kissing up to you so that you don't suspect them? Or so - if you are lynched - they look good for defending you?

What about the people dropping off the radar - like DP and Bass and Made?

I cut out the mega gross elephant butt post, it was too big and that thing gave me nightmares, lol.

Again, we disagree. If anything, I think, in a game with so little BTS, it leaves us more free to defend if something in a case or argument against someone seems wrong. I am LOVING this game becasue of it. I am defending people right and left & seeing both sides of every story, instead of being afraid to do so. It's liberating

It surprises me to hear you, of all people, say so since I know you are also an underdog defender. Not seeing that here. Unless you would call Epi an underdog, and I don't see him that way, and I don't think he would like it were people to do so. Since you think vocally defending someone is suspicious, or odd as you say, why are you so vocally defending Epi?

I am not going to give you a cookie, I am going to give you a puppy, because I don't think you have one.



I really could go either way; I could see either being bad (not Yotsuba, but bad). On one level, Epi being unlynchable would not surprise me, but on the other it kinda would. I think he would be more actively chaos sowing if he knew he would not die. And Snowmans responses have not helped him in my eyes. It looked like a big No U last night, and it still does this AM. I totes agree with you there, Bea. So I will follow along today, and decide at some point.

[Ricochet]

TH, good to hear you've decided not to change your vote that you would not be able to change anymore, anyway.

Getting a bit intrigued that Ace is so far taking the day off, especially when the only intel on him came from L. Not sure what to make of Bass and Made either, Bass seems to me like he made a very convenient catch-up post and Made took an even more premature way than MM and TH, stating his vote is certain, but so far not coming back with a case and not voting. Hmms all around.

I personally think both Snowman and Zomba can be discarded, at this point. They're both acting a bit superior - Zomba that her read on her husband is better than anything we can attempt to do in here, Snowman that he knows how to really read and trick us given his psych expertise - and they're neither really helpful in the game with their attitudes. Snowman first, though.

In Zomba's case, at least, there was a time not long ago (and tons of pages behind) where she actually used to contribute to all the discussions, in her usual way. I still think she reacted a bit jumpy to Snowman's short profile on her, insisting now that that profile was actually a meaningless accusation towards her, but her rebuttal was ok - just ok: neither feisty and genuine, like SVS thinks, neither questionable and contradictory, like DH thought.

Re: Snowman's rebuttal(s), I still think he's mixing or tangling himself in llama's posts, either hastily or actually deliberately: he claims Llama distracted everyone from their questioning of Epig not voting for Russ, but brings out a post as evidence in which Llama is simply tired of the discussion about Russ' motives or possible powers for having been so absent. Clear spin there. Insists that Llama is making baseless accusations and that he crafts evidence, but still refuses to reply to any accusations. As Llama said himself, he's still ignorant of a day and half of suspicions he has drawn on himself. His suspects list is everyone who is gunning for him (Llama, Zomba) and everyone who was questioned at the time when he became a story (Russ, Epig); he hasn't or won't offer any vision on any other subjects, suspects, players. I can empathize a bit with his bitterness towards Llama gunning him down, but he's still No-U-ing, twisting his charges and just being flippant towards him (and Zomba) instead of proving them wrong.

I will have to vote roughly 4-5 hours ahead of the Day's end, because I'm taking the night train to Bucharest (where I'll also have stuff to do tomorrow and my Mafia time and access will be very limited), but I will do so around that time and it will very likely be for Snowman.

[bea]

My problem with Epi right now is that MM's case was good. It showed how inconsistent he has been and his responses have done little to convince me he's good. His tone, deflated and dejected, has however. So I'm back and forth on him.

Then we have Snowman. His responses don't seem genuine to me and he doesn't actually seem frustrated by all this, half-heartedly NO U'ing his detractors.

Still a fair amount of time before the lynch ends but, honestly, these guys may be aligned with Kira but I really doubt either is one.

If not them, who?

[bea]

SVS -I will try to explain better. I know I'm a civ - maybe I'm just ultra paranoid and other's don't feel the same way I do, but I get worried when people find me too agreeable. I think they are being nice to me so that I won't see them sneaking up to kill me. -

I wasn't mad - just full of high ABV beer. Went to a beer tasting event last night. Arrived early - was mafiaing during the pre-event beer time.

I don't think epi is an underdog, but I think his actual contributions to the thread have been overlooked. I agreed completely with his assessment of the Day 0 lynch options. FZ pointed out that Epi did bring up some useful info about Snowman the last cycle. He was a pretty vocal defender against a llama lynch last day. Those are three things he's added to the game off the top of my head.

Like I said last night, I think his posts have fallen into three catagories: useful ones, frustrated ones, and fuck it I don't care anymore posts. I think when a person is as vocal as Epi can be, it's easy to take the frustrated posts and the eff it, IDC anymore ones and make someone seem like they aren't doing much. Also, as I said, I am giving some pause to the fact that llama and eloh don't seem to find him bad at this time either.

Cute goggie is cute! Thanks! I still have puppies, like children, no matter how old they get, they are always puppies to mom.

I have to work now and I'm supposed to be done at 5 - which is a bit close to lynch ending time for my liking. I will vote later today after the lunch rush most likely - and from my phone.

I'm pretty sure I'm going with Snowman though.

[Tangrowth]

Someone remind me that I have a funny story about playing the BSG board game with Zomba and Snowman to tell at the end of the game. :P

[Marmot]

Someone remind me that I have a funny story about playing the BSG board game with Zomba and Snowman to tell at the end of the game. :P

Dully noted.

[Zombarella]

My problem with Epi right now is that MM's case was good. It showed how inconsistent he has been and his responses have done little to convince me he's good. His tone, deflated and dejected, has however. So I'm back and forth on him.

Then we have Snowman. His responses don't seem genuine to me and he doesn't actually seem frustrated by all this, half-heartedly NO U'ing his detractors.

Still a fair amount of time before the lynch ends but, honestly, these guys may be aligned with Kira but I really doubt either is one.

If not them, who?

@ Zeek - What would make someone look like a Kira to you? Some of the Kira supporters do have non-lynch powers. I suppose their lack of defense might actually be confidence that the lynch will fail. Or that's what they want us to think, or .... WIFOM. If the lynch fails, I think it supports my case that Snowmonster is bad.

@ Rico - Yes, I have dropped all my normal playing to pursue Snowman exclusively. I am 100% focused on getting him lynched. As soon as he is dead, I will go back to my normal baddie-hunting self.

[Zombarella]

Someone remind me that I have a funny story about playing the BSG board game with Zomba and Snowman to tell at the end of the game. :P

I DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!

[Zombarella]

My problem with Epi right now is that MM's case was good. It showed how inconsistent he has been and his responses have done little to convince me he's good. His tone, deflated and dejected, has however. So I'm back and forth on him.

Then we have Snowman. His responses don't seem genuine to me and he doesn't actually seem frustrated by all this, half-heartedly NO U'ing his detractors.

Still a fair amount of time before the lynch ends but, honestly, these guys may be aligned with Kira but I really doubt either is one.

If not them, who?

@ Zeek - What would make someone look like a Kira to you? Some of the Kira supporters do have non-lynch powers. I suppose their lack of defense might actually be confidence that the lynch will fail. Or that's what they want us to think, or .... WIFOM. If the lynch fails, I think it supports my case that Snowmonster is bad.

@ Rico - Yes, I have dropped all my normal playing to pursue Snowman exclusively. I am 100% focused on getting him lynched. As soon as he is dead, I will go back to my normal baddie-hunting self.

EBWOP: Epi and Snowmonsters' lack of defense that is.

[Tangrowth]

Someone remind me that I have a funny story about playing the BSG board game with Zomba and Snowman to tell at the end of the game. :P

I DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!

I promise I won't tell if you don't want me to, but it's awesome. And I can't leave out the part about Snowman goofing, so hopefully that's consolation. :P

[AceofSpaces]

Holy shit. I was too busy Sunday and Monday to check in and post, and now there are like 20 pages for me to read.

[Zombarella]

Someone remind me that I have a funny story about playing the BSG board game with Zomba and Snowman to tell at the end of the game. :P

I DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS MESSAGE!

I promise I won't tell if you don't want me to, but it's awesome. And I can't leave out the part about Snowman goofing, so hopefully that's consolation. :P

We all goofed that night.

[Marmot]

Holy shit. I was too busy Sunday and Monday to check in and post, and now there are like 20 pages for me to read.

[DharmaHelper]

Svs - he's done it too - but that Blaime can be spread far and wide amongst the what did you call it like day one "alpha male syndrome "?

Bullz was pretty reasonable in his point about mm's case being pate and post vote in an unchangeable vote game.

Dh's posts to Epi read very pot and kettle to me ATM. Between the two I'm reading Epi as more genuine.

Have I struck you as the sort to take my ball and go home?

DH - that was not what I was saying and you know it.

SVS was refering to epi's hair splitting - which yes - I think you, TH, Epi, llama and boo have all done in equal measure. You all have spent a decent amount of time hair splitting with each other and not finding Kira's - so from any of you - slamming Epi for not calling out Kira's as a reason why he's a Kira feels very pot/kettle to me.

Apart from the fact that I've brought a case on Zomberella out, actively discussed suspects, etc, I agree with you.

[Marmot]

Only 6 votes so far and things have gone quiet today. I wonder if all 18 other voters will make it in.

[Tangrowth]

They better.

[thellama73]

Only 6 votes so far and things have gone quiet today. I wonder if all 18 other voters will make it in.

I will.

[juliets]

me too

[Marmot]

You guys know how to make a marmot feel better.

[Turnip Head]

Only 6 votes so far and things have gone quiet today. I wonder if all 18 other voters will make it in.

I will.

Why haven't you voted yet? What are you waiting for?

[thellama73]

Only 6 votes so far and things have gone quiet today. I wonder if all 18 other voters will make it in.

I will.

Why haven't you voted yet? What are you waiting for?

[Epignosis]

To make this easier to follow, I will be using a color code:

These posts are, in my estimation, Anti-detective. Aquamarine.
These posts are an attempt to avoid Accountability. Amber.
These posts are Dismissive. Dandelion yellow.
These posts are Inconsistent with something else he has said. Indigo.
These posts are Unimportant in my estimation. Ultramarine.
These posts are just Mean. Maroon.

I am most tempted to vote for either high poster lynch or L/Light lynch. High poster lynch appeal to me because I can rest assured I will likely be among those whose vote counts the most, but L/Light lynch is just too interesting of an opportunity to pass up.

Both options lead to lynch manipulation, and that is inherently anti-detective.

The question is "How to use the lynch note to best catch Kira."

I believe that pitting L and Kira against each other to match wits this early is our best bet to do just that. So I will be voting for the L/Kira lynch option. I think it provides us with the most information to work with and I intend to do just that.

This option gives Light a say in whose vote counts and whose doesn't. That is anti-detective.

Here are my basic thoughts on all eight options.

1) Normal Lynch - Likely to be easier for mafias and BTSCs to either manipulate or get information from. (For example, if L is lynched as a result of the +5 vote, that would kill L and expose the +5 guy to the mafia). Sure, this can be considered a "safe" option, but playing it safe isn't going to win the civvies the game. This is essentially a blank slate that is subject to vote manipulations and easy deductions, which in my view makes it one of the more dangerous options.

2) Secret Ballot Lynch - Obviously not even close to on the table. It removes too much information from the thread, allows mafia to blend in more, and cripples the civvie effort.

3) High Poster Influenced Lynch - Encourages activity, but far too easy for the mafia to take advantage (post a lot, and gain the benefit of driving discussion AND having heavily weighed votes)

4) Low Poster Influenced Lynch - Encourages *inactivity*, which is bullshit. The mafia could blend into the background and get rewarded for it, which I don't see as a good way to go about things.

5) Early Voter Influenced Lynch - AKA the Bandwagon option, early votes would count more, therefore people would be forced to limit their views and votes to the earliest of candidates for fear of not having their vote matter in the grand scheme. An easy work around would be something like in Grimms mafia when discussion was during the Night, but this still leaves a great deal of room for abuse and manipulation.

6) Late Voter Influenced Lynch - AKA the Team Save option. gives far too much power to anyone who votes late, such as a teammate waiting to save a mafia. This would make it incredibly difficult to actually lynch any mafia when we end up catching one.

7) L and Light Influenced Lynch - Removes a lot of the control/influence from the mafia in terms of going into a lynch with a battle plan, and gives the civvies some control as well, with L deciding who he trusts at any given time. In addition to providing insight into both L and Kiras mindsets, it allows the thread to deduce information from lynches, and provides the opportunity for clever gameplay. As I see it, this is the clear winner and best option.

8) Nihilistic Random Lynch - While it shares similarities with the L/Light lynch option in that in prevents the mafia from having a set "plan" in terms of how to go about a lynch, it also takes a lot of the control and information away from the civvies as well. There is nothing to deduce from "random lynches". It has little informational benefit.

The secret ballot lynch removes information from the thread, but this criticism is not applied to the L/Light option, which would do more than that- it would give a killer heavy influence over the lynches.

I'm kind of surprised people find the L/Light one so appealing. Light starts with BTSC with one other person and has the potential for more from the sounds of the team description. That to me firmly gives the advantage of how that one works to Light, right? I mean, it could be interesting, sure, but it just seems overly risky. I mean, for the person who is L, if they are feeling extremely confident about being on their A-game, I suppose the option would make sense, but that seems like a big leap of faith for any other non-L detective to make.

some linki, will post then read

The way I see it, having an idea at any given point of who L and Light decide to put on their list and leave off their list gives us the best chance of finding Kira. It may seem risky, allowing Kira to put his team on his list and therefore make sure their votes count at least for one, but if its played right, and if we think it through right, The L/Kira option could lead us into finding more evidence against mafia.

It is never made clear how the L / Light option would give detectives the idea, and it acknowledges that Light could sway the lynches.

It does not say we know what they decide:

7) L and Light Influenced Lynch - Every player casts a public vote; however, not every player's vote counts. L secretly determines which half of the players' votes will count and which half will not count. Light does the same. The players that appear on both "count" lists have heavily weighted votes. Players on only one "count" list have a normal vote. Players who do not appear on either list will not have their votes counted.

Am I being obtuse (very realistic possibility)?

We can figure out what they decide, is what I mean. Maybe not immediately, but the further on we go, these things can be put together if we do our homework.

This ducks accountability because it makes hunting Kira secondary to figuring out what L and Light did. Also, it ignores that Kira and the sympathizers can do the same thing.

Woo game! And intriguing start with it.

I was going to say I'd easily go with an experimental type of lynching for a pretty experimental game, out of which I'd prefer the L/Kira type over Secret or Nihilistic, which do not seem to me like they'd be of any help in vote analysis. But now there's a worrying detail about the L/Kira type and I'd like everyone to say if it makes sense or not:

Both L and Kira (note: I'll usually have the simple habit to refer to Light as Kira; if there are strong disagreements with this, I'll use Light) start in BTSC with another player (Watari/Ryuk); it's safe to assume both L and Kira will always add themselves and their companions in their choices. None of the sides have collective BTSC by default right now, but the Yotsuba and Kira groups are hinted to develop further in the game. I tend to believe the secrets to the roles will be very much related to the story / character traits, which means, and I hope it's no hinting in saying this, that L might get in touch with a couple more detectives, but over at Kira, his main sympathizers might either be handed DN (Death Notes) without finding out the identity of Kira, or gain contact with him. That would put the Kira camp in a bit more advantage, if the L/Kira lynch-type will truly be adopted over a long period of time.

Then again, L could compensate with his role-checking and be more aware than Kira on whom he should pick, over the same extended period of time.

But all this makes me less sure of the whole L/Kira type. It's the most temping, but also troublesome in figuring out which side is getting the advantage in it.

I can sleep on it, though (as in literally, past 1am here), and hear more thoughts before voting.

Major linkage: Ok, wow. I think a few just picked up on what I did too.

This is a good point, that both L and Light have at least one person they can trust to put on their lists (Watari/Ryuk) Along with themselves. And L's role check (having a percentage of who Kira could be) would be his biggest influence in picking his list, I assume. So there is a balance there. As Light gains his followers, L gains an idea of who to trust and therefore the lists start to take shape in a meaningful way.

Since Light has BTSC with Ryuk and L does not have BTSC with Watari, this is not true. It strikes me as odd that DharmaHelper would push a monumental Day 0 choice under an incorrect assumption that Watari has BTSC with L, or that L even knows Watari's identity.

I'm kind of surprised people find the L/Light one so appealing. Light starts with BTSC with one other person and has the potential for more from the sounds of the team description. That to me firmly gives the advantage of how that one works to Light, right? I mean, it could be interesting, sure, but it just seems overly risky. I mean, for the person who is L, if they are feeling extremely confident about being on their A-game, I suppose the option would make sense, but that seems like a big leap of faith for any other non-L detective to make.

some linki, will post then read

The way I see it, having an idea at any given point of who L and Light decide to put on their list and leave off their list gives us the best chance of finding Kira. It may seem risky, allowing Kira to put his team on his list and therefore make sure their votes count at least for one, but if its played right, and if we think it through right, The L/Kira option could lead us into finding more evidence against mafia.

I mean, I get where you're coming from, and your argument for it is pretty much the sum of what makes it a good option. I just think there are too many variables that make the risk of it higher than the reward. First, what happens if L dies (which, in the early game, seems more likely to me than a baddie with BTSC going down)? Maybe it passes down, maybe Light takes a ton of control, maybe it will just be for D1 so it doesn't matter, but that right off that bat is a big enough issue that I don't like or trust the option.

From his description, Light is manipulative, so lynch manipulation in the role would seem fitting. Then there's some BTSC with the potential of more (it sounds like). It just takes a lot less effort for Light to use that option to control lynches and get away with it (a few lynches in would give Light and L a far better idea of how the weighting works than it would the thread at large, and that information would then be open to be used to greater effect to a baddie team than a lone civvie imo).

I dunno, you're right that it could work, if L is really on top of things, manages to trust and mistrust the right people without actually giving anything anyway within the thread, predicts Light correctly to manage the list in the right way, and does all of that without painting a target on their back... but that seems a lot of pressure to put on one person, and if lynches were to be run that way the whole game, I just don't see it paying off. If it were a smaller and typical baddie team instead of a team of 7 (with another team of 7), L, assuming they did an awesome job, could feasibly play it how you're hoping for, in the best case scenario. But given the baddie team set up, it just doesn't seem possible to me (I mean, if you were L, would you want what you're hoping from them to be on them all game, assuming the option decides how lynches work the entire game), cause I really wouldn't.

Admittedly its a bit of a risk, but I think it will pay off in the end. Light is as you said, already likely working with lynch manipulations. And therefore I think that the L/Light lynch option is the best way to in some measure, counteract that. I think this because:

It gives L the same authority as Light, at theoretically the same pace. Going off the idea that L and Light both start with themselves and one other person they will trust, and then as the game progresses they will each have an idea of who to leave off and put on their lists. Light will accomplish this through (assumed, likely) BTSC with his team. L will accomplish this through checking people at night and basing his trust in them off the percentage that they are Kira. Higher percentages are likely not to be on his list, lower percentages are. MP has said he will be balancing the game well, and this mechanic (to me) illustrates that balance.

Now, to address your valid point regarding what happens if L is killed. I would assume that either Near or Mello would inherit the civvie side of the list, though I could be wrong. Just basing that theory off the idea in the roles of them being the possible successors to L. If all three are dead? (meaning L, Mello, and Near) Watari. If All Four are dead? Someone from the SPK or task force. Of those options I just hashed out, Watari actually seems like he would fit as the first and best option to inherit this lynch responsibility. Of course, the same could be said of Light (what happens when/if Light is killed? who would take up the mantle? Probably Second Kira.) My point being that there are checks and balances undoubtedly in place to ensure that L and the civvies have a legit and fair shot with this option in play.

The double bluffing and deductions and intricacies of this option are what appeal to me, as well. I don't think its quite as cut and dry as Light putting his team on his list every time and therefore having a clear advantage. While it does place a lot of responsibility on L's shoulders, it does the same for Light and puts him at a very scary position, giving him one more thing to worry about possibly costing him the game if he slips up or picks wrong.

A stated above, L does not start with anyone to trust. That DharmaHelper ignores this shows that he has not carefully read the role descriptions.

DharmaHelper also assumes that "checks and balances undoubtedly in place" [sic] ensure that L and the civilians have a fair shot with that option involved. That is demonstrably untrue given the other options in the poll, which DharmaHelper showed favored Mafia.

Why are you guys saying L and Watari have BTSC? The role just says Watari knows L's identity, which to me implies Watari knows who has the role of L, not that L knows who Watari is or has a line of communication open with them.

Linki - Oops. Missed that.

Oops indeed.

Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)

Having been caught missing something, DharmaHelper concocts a role mechanic based on the description. He did this in less than one minute.

Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)

It's pretty likely that Light can kill three people every night, because secrets.

I'm not sure if its as much of a logical leap to assume that Watari and L have BTSC. The evidence is there. Its certainly possible they don't. but:

1) MP has said this game is balanced very well.
2) Light has BTSC with Ryuk
3) Watari is linked very closely with L in the show
4) The language in Watari's role suggest cooperation at the very least.

This is speculation based on canon and what MP would do, something DharmaHelper has criticized me for. It also has "cover my ass" all over it.

Though given the whole "helps him with his operations" thing in Watari's role, its likely they share BTSC, (Also, both have secrets)

It's pretty likely that Light can kill three people every night, because secrets.

I'm not sure if its as much of a logical leap to assume that Watari and L have BTSC. The evidence is there. Its certainly possible they don't. but:

1) MP has said this game is balanced very well.
2) Light has BTSC with Ryuk
3) Watari is linked very closely with L in the show
4) The language in Watari's role suggest cooperation at the very least.

1) Ok? There's already establish over civvie BTSC.
2) See 1.
3) So for the very balanced game, wouldn't potential BTSC between the two of them like the baddies seem to be capable of be more balanced?
4) I mean, I'm less surprised by cooperation between civvie roles* than I am between the lack of it with a role listed with the detectives (*who for the sake of stream-lining things I think we'll probably be referring to as the civvies, right?) that doesn't seem to cooperate with L (I mean, 2 actually Hideki and Mello both have some pretty serious anti-L potential).

You make good points, and I can obviously see the risk in going with the L/Light option vs. the traditional lynch option. High risk does not translate to very dangerous/disadvantageous in my view though.

I can ultimately see where you're coming from and I think that while neither of us are going to budge on our picks obviously, at the least we are both presenting very good discussion for anyone who has yet to vote.

Please note that DharmaHelper is very calm with boo, saying that they are both making good discussion for others who have not yet to vote. Later on, DharmaHelper called my Day 0 rally for the normal lynch option "fear-mongering," even though boo and I raised the same or similar points.

@Boo in regards to Ricochet, maybe I am biased (because for one I agree with him that the L/Light option is good, and I've seen Death Note and therefore understand a lot of the connections he's making regarding the lore of the show and how the lore could fit with the secrets) But I don't necessarily see anything quite yet that jumps out and says "Ricochet is bad." I think it would be premature to lock myself in on anything right now, and I don't view in particular Epignosis's suspicions of Ricochet as anything that holds water right now.

The first time I gun for someone, DH dismisses it. Not a big deal at the moment, since it's Day 0, but this will become a trend.

I can see both sides of it. I'm happy with my vote, but won't be disappointed if normal lynch wins either.

Ultimately I understand if a normal lynch wins out, But I'm very hopeful that it doesn't. Every bit of me wants this game to be challenging and unique and fun and I'm literally electric with excitement at the idea of that L/Light mechanic.

I can believe this.

While I'm here I also want to stress that a "vanilla" lynch affords Light's team and the mafia an advantage not just in their vote manipulations and teamvoting and so on, but in that L is vulnerable to that +5 deathshot from Ide. At least with L buffing/nerfing votes, he can afford himself some protection against Ide. Does that make sense? Again, it is a very tough nut to crack, a question of meta almost. Does L try and keep Ide off his list? Does Light try and put Ide *ON* the list, at the risk of weakening his list by buffing a civ? It's all very interesting to me.

He supports an option that could ruin L.

After voting, DharmaHelper finally reads the roles. That doesn't make sense, if DharmaHelper is a detective wanting to help the other detectives.

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

A normal lynch yields insights too, but DharmaHelper thinks figuring out whose vote was worth what would help the detectives. I maintain that such a pursuit is fruitless, and could get a detective lynched as easily as anyone else.

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

"Lynch fuckery" is something DharmaHelper assumes to be present in a normal lynch scenario, but not one he thinks will be in all lynch scenarios, including the L / Light option. He fails to see that any pre-Day 0 lynch manipulations will also be in play for the L / Light option.

Sorry for the delay in getting here. When I finally realized things were hoppin in here, I started reading the 2000 pages of backstory.

So...who's getting lynched?

Any reason you voted for the Early voters lynch option?

Asking a legitimate question.

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

Except if roles have lynch manipulation included in their secrets, it would be unreasonable to undo all of that with the effects of a D0 poll making those powers worthless. It seems to me you're assuming stuff like the +5 vote would somehow be negated in the L/Light choice, but I don't see why you think that's the case since including lynch manipulation in roles only to allow it to become potentially irrelevant doesn't seem like something MP would do. So the known quantity wouldn't be the case at all, it would just be something else to mess up with understanding lynch results.

I also think you're putting way to much trust in one civvie. If L ends up trusting bad information, going after the wrong people, trusting the wrong people, etc, going with L/Light would let Light run every lynch however they want. The whole advantage civvies have over baddies is numbers, and while that's less true in this game than a typical one, it is still the case assuming the two teams of 7 need each other dead to win. Letting L have the kind of power that option would give them would essentially undo the numerical advantage and instead rely entirely upon their judgement, and especially in the early game, that would likely lead to the death of civvies if there are even small errors in judgement on L's part. Then, unlike a normal game where civvies botching early lynches is normal and can be recovered from, once a few are out of, Light can pretty much run lynches however they like, especially if they can sus out who L is (which, imo, would be easier than normally figuring out a persons role, since they'll have the most accurate idea of both lists) and then spin that to their advantage by not killing L until as many other civvies are dead as possible.

All that to say, I have more trust in the masses than I do letting lynches be decided 50/50 by a baddie and a civvie, with the baddie imo holding the information advantage, especially in the early game.

I think it really needs to come down to people putting themselves in the shoes of the two roles. If I were L and the option won, I wouldn't be pleased with the responsibility of having my judgement become so important to the point of other civvies judgement and choices becoming irrelevant at my whim (not just civvies ofc, but it would be mostly blind luck to get the right people on my list or not). On the other hand, as Light, I would be more than happy to have that kind of early game power, since I can effectively use it to keep myself from getting lynched as long as I can get through D1 and get proper reads on the minds of people, and I really don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't one of 7 out of 27 roles.

If L works out who Ide is, or at least who Ide is NOT, and has people who support him/don't suspect him in the thread, buffing their votes by placing them on the list will help negate Ide's vote should Ide decide to vote for L. That's how I view it, anyway. And giving Light the ability to make the entire mafia uberstrong voters doesn't seem like something MP would do willy nilly either.

My point is exactly that. Light and probably some other people have secret vote manipulation and therefore carry an advantage. the L/Light list mechanic forces Light to have to think and rethink and puts a wrench in some of that manipulation by valuing/devaluing votes. It also allows L and the civvies to buff their own votes. Don't forget, Light has to put HALF the list of players on his list. He has to. Which means even if he does have BTSC with his team eventually, more often than not he's likely to buff at least a few civvies in the early stages of things.

DH doesn't seem to consider any of this "fear-mongering."

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

Pay attention to that word "astronomical." DharmaHelper is expressing the view that the L / Light lynch is so detective-friendly that the odds that it will favor Mafia is astronomical, yet a few posts before, when talking to boo, he acknowledged the "risks."

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

Assuming Light can A) Find and B) Successfully NK L

How does L making poor judgement calls early translate into those two things being any more/ any less likely? I disagree that mafia are somehow going to be "better" at this because it happens outside of the thread. I also disagree that this is a strictly outside of the thread occurrence. As I've said it may take some legwork but the lynch votes can be used to figure out who was on what list if any, and that information can be used to damage Light.

Again, what is more important- lynching Kira, or figuring out who L trusts?

Sure, but if he just plays it well and buffs civvies or other baddies who are chasing his non-teammates, then the benefit of their vote being buffed is still his, not theirs. And of course, he can also work to use the extra part of the half he has to use to devalue votes where necessary. An all around easier situation for him to handle and spin to his advantage unless he manages to fumble it spectacularly. Then with L, even pretty good playing wouldn't be enough, they would HAVE to be on their A game the whole time to make it work, and even if they manage that, it just makes them liable to get NKed and a different civvie a chance (assuming the pass down idea is correct) to use less than stellar judgement or get NKed.

Your cynicism has an incredible lack of faith for L but not for Light. Light has plenty of power to use to his advantage to help him. His secrets, as well as his percentage-check. We can debate what ifs and maybes all day but like you said, MP would not leave this kind of stuff up to chance. There are undoubtedly balances in place to give L just as much security and maneuverability as Light.

For example, they both *have* to pick one half of the current player base. The odds that the lists will work out in favor of the mafia (majority of mafia on both lists, majority of civs either on one or no list) is just astronomical.

I don't agree that it's cynicism. Mafia have an easier time controlling things that go on outside of the thread because that is the inherent advantage of being mafia. This option brings more of the control of lynches outside of the thread, and is therefore inherently to the advantage of the mafia. It requires a higher degree of luck and skill to be used effectively by L than it does by Light, and if L demonstrates that luck and skill early on, then Light can use the old stand by of just night killing the problem out of existence to get back on track. If L does not demonstrate (or have) that luck and skill, then the mafia can quickly control the game to the point where the other team may be a concern (balance), but the civvie chance of recovery is pretty much zero.

Assuming Light can A) Find and B) Successfully NK L

How does L making poor judgement calls early translate into those two things being any more/ any less likely? I disagree that mafia are somehow going to be "better" at this because it happens outside of the thread. I also disagree that this is a strictly outside of the thread occurrence. As I've said it may take some legwork but the lynch votes can be used to figure out who was on what list if any, and that information can be used to damage Light.

Yes.

It doesn't. L making poor judgement calls mean Light doesn't need to kill them. L making good judgement calls will be reflected by the result of the lynches, and I believe would make it easier to find L. Killing them would then just be a matter of timing.

I don't agree with the idea that it would be more useful to the civs and help them find Light. They can't know who put who on which list or any of that, so unless Light or their started BTSC partner got lynched, I don't see what information you could expect to get from an L/Light controlled lynch that would put you in a better situation than a lynch decided everyone equally (once manipulation is accounted for, which I think is easier without the list further muddying things up).

What I mean is it is a stepping stone. It is another piece of the puzzle that can be added to other evidence to form cases. Obviously on its own it isn't going to yield 100% results, but i think that again, it has the potential to be a very useful tool in gathering information.

And I'm still not getting how it puts L in Lights crosshairs. Light only knows (as far as I can tell) who he puts on HIS list. So, to figure out the other half of that equation (who L put on his list, and who ended up on neither list or both) Light is at just as much of a disadvantage as L. And this assumes that Light and L are not careful in who they place on their lists. There are measures in place and tactics that can be used to conceal L's motives. Taking that into consideration, finding L is just as difficult for Light as finding Light would be for the civs.

The question of balance comes up a lot. Do you honestly think MP would even give us the option of picking a lynch mechanic that all but guaranteed L would be found and killed immediately? That does not seem balanced to me.

"There are measures in place and tactics that can be used to conceal L's motives." What could these measures and tactics possibly be? And if there are such measures and tactics, wouldn't they apply similarly to Light?

Again, DharmaHelper never calls boo "fear-mongering."

I don't know DH, I'm starting to think you're just reaching for things even you don't believe because you'd like to be right and win the argument.

Or I'm just tired and no longer following you.

Either way, I've said everything I actually have to say without repeating myself (and then some :P), and now we've reached a point where I feel like we're going in circles and just giving people things to disinterestedly skim read. But I think we've hammered out both options and why they work and don't to the fullest extent that I have anything useful to add, so until other people have new ideas to share I think I'm done.

Alright man, fair enough. For what its worth I'm just trying to be thorough. I did enjoy getting to hammer out the options with you.

No big deal, although I will again remind the reader that boo wasn't fear-mongering.

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.

The only thing I find weird here is that Long Con is asking a question rather than looking it up himself.

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.

I just said that, DH!

Linki caught me. My b.

No big deal.

In a perfect world, the L/Light thing would work as you guys are saying. My concern (and it was the impetus behind my vote) is what if L is someone like me (disclaimer: it is NOT me)? In GoC2, I trusted one of the baddies the whole game. Let me qualify, I distrusted him Day 1, he made one remark, I turned around, and not only did i trust him the whole game, I fought for him. In another recent game, I have only voted for civvies. And I am not the only one.

If we have a couple of really slick, manipulative players as baddies and L is taken in by them... I think that is putting too much control in one civvies hands unless L is super astute. Which he may be. Or he may be someone like me, easily susceptible to flattery & letting someones demeanor influence opinion as to affiliation.

I do think L/Light might be a really powerful tool, but I also think it could also be a major fiasco, especially if Light is a stronger player than L. I already voted, and having read the points made after I went afk, I am happy with my vote.

Also, I intend to never trust DH again :P

Linki, you are speaking in sarcasm, that color is the very similar to the sarcasm font. Just an FYI

That would be a fine criticism if L and Light could pick and choose the size of their lists. They can't. They *have* to pick half of the playerbase. Therefore, Light can't just *give* the mafia the advantage.

EBWOP: And L won't need to have a bulletproof list.

S~V~S is even wrong about the L / Light lynch option, according to DharmaHelper, but even she is not fear-mongering.

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

This is the first post where DharmaHelper and I have interacted. I am not going to rehash the arguments I made or criticize the ones he made. I want you to notice the difference in his tone. I have emphasized three such places. Nowhere else is he so abrasive or direct to other people. Even though I did not address him directly, DharmaHelper initiated the antagonistic tone and verbiage.

I also want to highlight that last sentence. "This is your weakest point by far," he notes. I looked through my posts. I made no other points that were not repeated in this post or were not about Ricochet.

These two elements indicate to me that DharmaHelper was planting the necessary seeds of entrapment- giving himself the opportunity to vote for me no matter what I did.

If we're losing 87% of our games, maybe that's a sign that we should try something different

like participating

I am participating. DharmaHelper may not like what I post, but he still thinks it's okay to keep non-participators and low-posters around. Why would he do that?

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

Light absolutely has the advantage in the system. Any boon to Mafia only benefits Mafia, while any boon to a civilian can benefit anyone, including Mafia. A Mafia with a kill, for example, is not a threat to its own team. A civilian killer, however, can decimate the civilians.

This option also gives Light a bounty of information. He will know whose vote is potentially worthless and whose vote is potentially worth more. The very act of making this list is informative. Counter by saying that L gets this information too all you want, but as far as I can tell, L doesn't kill and Light most likely does. Once again, the information will benefit Light more than it will L.

A person is accountable for who they voted for regardless? You must be new here.

Explain to me this, Epi:

How does this system offer anyone an out as you have described it? In what way is "Maybe my vote was worth more, maybe it was worthless" a legitimate way to excuse voting for someone? Regardless of the value of the vote, the fact remains that the vote was cast. And in most cases it was cast with the expectation that it counted, and with the intent to lynch the person voted for. Maybe I'm dense and I don't get it, but I'm inviting you to explain to me what it is I'm missing.

As for the bounty of information, and how it benefits L/Light, I'm again unsure if I understand your point. It is a *requirement* that L and Light put 50% of the current playerbase on their lists. So neither list will be 100% mafia or 100% civilian, which means Light will have just as difficult a time figuring out L's intentions as L will have with Light's. Without knowing who is on the other list, L and Light are on even footing. There is legwork required to figure out even the most vague of details in order to do what you've described. Legwork that civilians are just as capable of doing, although (no offense intended) perhaps not willing to do.

I have held off on this one, but I think it's worth noting now: DharmaHelper keeps mentioning this "legwork" required figure things out, but now admits that civilians are perhaps not willing to do. That is kind of a huge flaw in his push for the L / Light option.

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

Do keep this in mind. This is DharmaHelper's golden standard of accountability. Notice that he never says "You must take accountability for those whom you do not vote," which is a theme that will require him to change his avatar.

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.

Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.

The points I raise are not "good discussion for people who haven't voted." Right off the bat, DharmaHelper has been antagonistic toward me, and in this post, says arguing with me is an ordeal. Note that "there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote."

"Just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other" is a false dilemma. There are four categories of players. "And that is information we can use," just states the obvious. I will be looking at how DharmaHelper has used the information that has come from players flipping.

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.

Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.

That's nice and all, but I'd like to see you hold someone responsible when your own vote doesn't count, and you likely won't know when that is.

There are six people so far who are cool with a killer having a say in whether or not their vote counts.

What you're saying is you want me to play the game. What you've just described is playing the game.

Unimportant post.

[Epignosis]

Gonna take a page out of Epi's book *Warning: Big post*

Using the system we have now of 27 Players, and list randomizer from Random.org

L's list will have to have 13 People on it, as will Light's. Lets assume for the sake of argument, that L and Light both put themselves on their respective lists. Since all we know for sure is that Light has BTSC with Ryuk, lets assume he puts Ryuk on his list. I will use Blue for L and Red For Light:

Right now:

L's List:
L

Light/Kira's List:
Light
Ryuk

Completely Randomizing L's list, this is the first (Blind) option I got, after having put every role in a radomizer in the order they are on the front page:

Sidoh (Independant)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)
Penber (Civvie)
Mogi (Civvie)
Watari (Civie)
Higuchi (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Ide (Civvie)
Demegawa (Mafia 1)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Misora (Civvie)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
L(Civvie)

So, completely randomly, L's list Includes:
Civilians (Including L) 8
Mafia 1 (Light's Team) 2
Mafia 2 (Yotsuba) 3

I want to stress that this is completely randomly, and does not take into account anything other than cold numbers.

Light's List:
Sidoh (Indie)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Light (Mafia 1)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Ryuk (Mafia 1)
Yagami (Civvie)
Misora (Civvie)
Ooi (Mafia 2)
Near (Civvie)
Shimura (Mafia 2)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

Lights list includes:
Civilians - 4
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 3
Indies - 1


The following appear on both lists and therefore have a buffed vote:
Sidoh (Independent)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civ)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Misora (Civ)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

The following appear on neither list and therefore do not have a vote:
Aizawa (Civ)
Ukita (Civ)
Mello (Civ)
Namikawa (Mafia 2)
Kida (Mafia 2)
Amane (Mafia 1)
Rem (Mafia 1)
Takada (Mafia 1)

Total of:
Civilians - 3
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 2

Which means the votes that would count on this theoretical day:
Sidoh (Independant) - Buffed
Takahashi (Mafia 2) - 5 Buffed
Penber (Civvie) - Normal
Mogi (Civvie) - Normal
Watari (Civie)- Normal
Higuchi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Matsuda (Civvie) - Buffed
Ide (Civvie) - Normal
Demegawa (Mafia 1) - Normal
Mido (Mafia 2) - Buffed
Misora (Civvie) - Buffed
Mikami (Mafia 1) - Buffed
L(Civvie) - Normal
Light (Mafia 1) - Normal
Ryuk (Mafia 1) - Normal
Yagami (Civvie) - Normal
Ooi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Near (Civvie) - Normal
Shimura (Mafia 2) - Normal


For a Grand total of:
Civilian Votes: 9 total (2 Buffed 7 Normal)
Mafia 1 Votes: 4 total (1 Buffed 3 Normal)
Mafia 2 Votes: 5 total (1 Buffed 4 Normal)
Indie Votes: 1 total (1 Buffed)

19 of 27 players have a vote that is at least Normal. Rougly 70% of the active players. Of those, 47% are civ, 21% are on Lights team, and 26% are on the Yotsuba team. Civvies have the majority vote AND the majority of buffs. This is not as advantageous for Light as it initially seems.

Admittedly this is ONE scenario, and I'm sure there are variables I did not account for, but as you can hopefully see its not as one-sided as you'd think.

EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P

EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P

Meaning Lights list should have 13 not 12 (and Penber was the 13th Light pick)

So again, not as mafia-heavy as you'd think.

In contrast to my post, which came from a gamemaker's perspective, DharmaHelper opted to give ONE random example for the L / Light lynch option that was supposed to demonstrate that that option was good for civilians. It doesn't take a mathematician to note the flaws in this. I'm a gambler, so these flaws were apparent. One random example could show that I could make a fortune in a casino. However, that isn't sound long-range planning. Had DharmaHelper shown, say, 100 random examples, then a clearer picture could have been formed.

Alright, whatever then. However it plays out, it plays out. I'll reserve the right to saying I told you so.

Not a big deal. However, I want everyone to consider the points I made versus the ones boo, S~V~S, and DharmaHelper made. Was I fear-mongering?

I'm slightly confused why DH believes half of all players alive will be included in the L/Light selections. Isn't it just half of the players who vote? How can we be certain all players will vote every time (even with the participation rule being enforced)?

The way I read it, L and Light pick players whose votes will count, not votes that count after the fact.

Not a big deal.

@Zomberella, re the earlier conversation. Boomslang and Ace = exactly the type of potential baddie L/Light voters I had in mind in this post. They've both come in, made vague statements about how it's a superior option without making any effort to add to the discussion or address the counter-arguments in any meaningful way. It's low effort choice making, and the fact that people are willing to come in and vote against a normal lynch in that style makes me think either 1) they're bad and want to fly low or 2) They work as fantastic examples as the kind of people I think having as L could potentially screw everything up. I don't mean 2) in a mean way, I just mean that if L/Light wins, L has to deep enough into the discussion so people know what that player is thinking, without doing it such a way that it becomes obvious who they are. Otherwise, there is no useful information to be learned for the other civvies, because everything would be essentially random from their perspective.

Nailed it. This + Rob's post are the number one reasons to look closely at L/Light voters in the next few days

Choo Choo.

DharmaHelper has unfortunately been transmuted into a train. That makes a lot of sense, as he has a one-track mind. Herr herr.

Epi now I know you're taking the piss.

Kira and His Sympathizers win when Kira has eliminated the Detectives and subsequently starts his utopian New World.

So everyone on Light's team has a win condition that contradicts the Detectives. And the Yotsuba group (which is a mafia, buddy.) Have a secret win condition, the possibility to NK, and at least one opportunity for BTSC

Viewing (and trying to frame) these groups as any form of civ-friendly is really quite absurd.

Is is detective-friendly to make the detectives think that they need at least 14 players dead when their number is only 12? I maintain it is not. The detectives need four Kira dead...

...which is why this is an attempt to avoid accountability. By broadening the lynch field, DharmaHelper can present his lynch as civilian-friendly when in fact it isn't.

Just a picture of DharmaHelper's girlfriend engaged in foreplay. Not important and eesh.

Enough of Day 0.

I have several suspects in mind, which I will no doubt expound on shortly.

Okay.

Two arguments with DharmaHelper in one day? Let me see if I can summon the strength...

Epi now I know you're taking the piss.

You shouldn't tell people what you "know." That's info-dumping.

Kira and His Sympathizers win when Kira has eliminated the Detectives and subsequently starts his utopian New World.

So everyone on Light's team has a win condition that contradicts the Detectives.

Correct. But detectives do not need all of that team dead to win.
But as long as at least one Kira (And that team has several Kiras) is alive, that teams win condition is literally "Kill all Detectives." That is not civ-friendly. Are you suggesting we let them be? If a connection/case can be made down the line that someone is on that team but not one of the Kiras you would advocate NOT lynching that person?

And the Yotsuba group (which is a mafia, buddy.)

I disagree. The detectives do not need them dead to win (except one of their number). I do not think that they need the detectives dead to win. If you agree with me on that second premise, then the conclusion is that the Yotsuba group are not Mafia- only one of them is.

You don't "think" they need the detectives dead to win? Come on dude. They have a secret win condition which to me means that to err on the side of caution and lynch them would be best.

Have a secret win condition,

Right, one that is probably not "kill all the detectives" or "eliminate all the Kira." Do you think they share the same win condition? I don't.
Somehow I doubt their win condition is "Help the civs pretty please."

the possibility to NK,

A democratic Night kill, which means the Kira himself does not have direct control over this.

Ok great. But aren't all mafias technically democratic night kills? I don't understand how "Don't worry guys, they're DEMOCRATICALLY killing civs at night." makes your point any better.

and at least one opportunity for BTSC

Correct. But not all of them, and not with the Kira, if my interpretation of Shingo Mido is correct.

Viewing (and trying to frame) these groups as any form of civ-friendly is really quite absurd.

What "groups?" I did not argue that any "groups" are "civ-friendly." You are loading what I said with meaning that isn't there, Tomodachi.

You are advocating that the civs (Detectives) do not need certain parts of the mafias (Yotsuba and Light) dead to win the game and visa versa, which translates to me to "civ-friendly." since they can, in your view, win together.

Addendum: Now I see why I had the strength to go a second bout. It is a new Day.

This is driving the detectives away from their win condition and broadening the lynch pool to make it more comfortable for Mafia to be okay with their vote.

Who is fear-mongering? Is it Epignosis, who says "Leave Yotsuba alone," or DharmaHelper, who says "They have secret win conditions. We must be safe and lynch them."

My first suspect is Epi, for the following reasons:

1. His exchange with me regarding the lynch options felt to me as though he was being obtuse and intentionally missing much of the point.
2. His attack on Ricochet feels opportunistic, hasty and ill-thought out.
3. He's literally saying "Hey lets not lynch ALL the mafia, am I right guys?"

Believe it or not, Epi is not my strongest suspect and I would probably not vote for him if the lynch was right now. Having played with Epi several times I am aware that what often seems like intentional shiftyness is just him being him.

My second suspect is llama for the following reason:
1) His mocking of the "Speculation" went a tad overboard in my view and felt antagonistic. With a game like this that contains many secrets the only way for us to have any idea of anything is to staart speculating, forming ideas and theories. Don't stiffle that by trivializing it.

My third suspect is Zomberella for this post
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 20#p114692

Which I found suspicious because it reads to me like an early attempt to put suspicion on players, but not by directly accusing them. Rather, by accusing them by proxy via boo and having boo do the legwork/put the pieces of that case together, therefore making the results of the case boos responsibility.

Trice made a similar post, which I will link here:
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 58#p114856

Attempting to put suspicion onto L/Light voters (and keep it there), thereby keeping the spotlight off of any of the other voters.

Zomberella also answered a question I had for Snowman, which raised my eyebrow a bit.



As for anyone else, those are the posts that jumped out at me after a re-read. I see some merit in the TH stuff. The *votes* that jump out at me are the ones for neither the Normal or L/Light options, and as Ace pointed out its not unreasonable that some mafia went for the safe "normal" option to avoid ruffling feathers.

As for Made's suggestion that Light/Ryuk voted or the L/Light option, something I'm willing to explore I suppose. But I doubt Light would draw too much attention when its completely avoidable.

There are DharmaHelper's first named suspects. I am one of them. The first reason is that I was being obtuse and missing the point. The normal lynch won out, so evidently there were many more people being obtuse and missing the point, no? But if that is too silly to entertain, consider that boo raised many of the same points I did, albeit from different angles, and that DharmaHelper was antagonistic toward me first. Why is boo not on the list?

My second suspect is llama for the following reason:
1) His mocking of the "Speculation" went a tad overboard in my view and felt antagonistic. With a game like this that contains many secrets the only way for us to have any idea of anything is to staart speculating, forming ideas and theories. Don't stiffle that by trivializing it.

If you find me suspicious because I am antagonistic, I'm surprised you haven't come gunning for me in every other game we've played together.

I take the Sherlock Holmes approach to speculation: without data, it is worse than useless. You get married to bad ideas and cling to them even when facts emerge that contradict them. If things happen that can only be explained by certain secrets, it's fine to assume those secrets to exist, but otherwise, speculation is a distraction and is counterproductive. That is my view.

I did notice Zombrella answering on Snowman's behalf, and I admit that is something that always raises my eyebrow as well.

I'm not arguing that its good or useful speculation. Everything starts somewhere, though. Would it not be better to cast a wide net, so to speak, and THEN let the facts emerge and eliminate the faultier speculations?

"Would it not be better to cast a wide net, so to speak, and THEN let the facts emerge and eliminate the faultier speculations?" DharmaHelper asks. I maintain that he doesn't really believe this. He has not let facts do anything- instead, he has depended on emotion and convenience.

My second suspect is llama for the following reason:
1) His mocking of the "Speculation" went a tad overboard in my view and felt antagonistic. With a game like this that contains many secrets the only way for us to have any idea of anything is to staart speculating, forming ideas and theories. Don't stiffle that by trivializing it.

If you find me suspicious because I am antagonistic, I'm surprised you haven't come gunning for me in every other game we've played together.

I take the Sherlock Holmes approach to speculation: without data, it is worse than useless. You get married to bad ideas and cling to them even when facts emerge that contradict them. If things happen that can only be explained by certain secrets, it's fine to assume those secrets to exist, but otherwise, speculation is a distraction and is counterproductive. That is my view.

I did notice Zombrella answering on Snowman's behalf, and I admit that is something that always raises my eyebrow as well.

I'm not arguing that its good or useful speculation. Everything starts somewhere, though. Would it not be better to cast a wide net, so to speak, and THEN let the facts emerge and eliminate the faultier speculations?

No, it would be much worse.

I disagree, but whatever works for you. I'd much rather start with everything on the table, and develop the useful theories and throw out the useless ones.

Again, this is not a methodology DharmaHelper has employed this game.

The proper way to investigate is this:
1. Collect all available facts.
2. Construct a theory that explains all available facts.

What too many people in this game do is this:
1. Construct a theory.
2. Collect/invent facts that support that theory.

You guys are free to disagree with me, but you're wrong, and I'm going to continue saying you're wrong.

Motherfucker I watch CBS too.

The Price is Right is still cool. We agree on this.

Do I have to remind people of the Game of Champions? It was not that long ago. Made was caught in a lie. A simple theory to explain that fact was that he was bad. It also turned out to be the truth.

But people were already married to theory that Made was good, so they invented imaginary "facts" concealed within the secrets to explain away his lie. This is not an effective strategy for the civvies.

Yes. Games are starting to blend together. I don't remember straight up lying that game, I only do that when i'm a civvie :P

If you're referring to my saying my vote was forced, it was a coincidence that I was bad.
That being said, it's a good idea to not count someone as civvie just because they were proven to tell the truth, i'll floated by doing that, and looking back further, Bea got away with that really hard in Monty python.

Not to get too off topic, But Made forced me to vote for him D2 so I assumed he could not be Boddy, and that Hatter had forced him to vote for whoever he voted for. Only during the bass/dom lynch did it click that Made was Suit.

Hows THAT for fitting the facts around your preferred theory, ey llama? HOISTED BY YOUR OWN PETARD!

Ah, the Game of Champions. Good times. I might have to talk about that some in my post, since I got a good hard look into some of your most successful evil Mafia maneuvers.

1. DharmaHelper pushed for the MOST anti civilian position there was. He supported a Day 0 option that could make it possible for your vote not to count, your enemy's vote to count more, and for two Mafia to have info that only one civilian would have. Operating under the assumption that all Yotsuba are bad, he gave one random case where civilians benefited from that option (and ignored hundreds of cases where they didn't).

Yeah, and then right away decided that he was going to target people who vocally disagree with him. I can understand being civ and genuinely thinking that L/Light is beneficial (though I and others obviously don't agree at all with that), but it's really not very civ to want to lynch people just for disagreeing with you. I think he's just trying to confuse the more wishy-washy civ posters and get some civ lynches before he gets killed - which would make sense if he has a non-critical baddie role.

When did I say I suspect anyone solely for them disagreeing with me? When did I say I want to lynch these dissenters? Please point this out.

A known detective called DharmaHelper out. Rather than support his suspicion of me, he challenged Trice's question.

well I was referring to this:

Trice made a similar post, which I will link here:
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 58#p114856

Attempting to put suspicion onto L/Light voters (and keep it there), thereby keeping the spotlight off of any of the other voters.

Which is a deliberate misinterpretation of what I said, there's nothing in my post about keeping spotlight off anybody at all. You'll notice I'm still waiting for Russ and Snowman to explain their votes.

I may have misread your tone though, could be honest mistake on your part but it sounds more like you're mad that I didn't support L/Light

My turn to clarify. What you said was "This is the #1 reason to look at L/Light voters over the next few days." (Paraphrasing because I'm typing up another post and dont feel like opening another tab to get the exact quote, but feel free to correct me.

What I took out of that was that you wanted to dial in on L/Light voters specifically (something that would take effort and attention from elsewhere) And secondly, that you wanted to carry this over multiple days of discussion. Focusing on something like that for that long raised my eyebrow. It has nothing to do with me being mad at your vote.

This is inconsistent because, if you will recall, DharmaHelper's primary reason for voting the L / Light option was to find information on whom L trusted, which thus means that any information he would have looked for would have been predicated on the "legwork" associated with the Day 0 vote. Would it not?

My first suspect is Epi, for the following reasons:

1. His exchange with me regarding the lynch options felt to me as though he was being obtuse and intentionally missing much of the point.
2. His attack on Ricochet feels opportunistic, hasty and ill-thought out.
3. He's literally saying "Hey lets not lynch ALL the mafia, am I right guys?"

Believe it or not, Epi is not my strongest suspect and I would probably not vote for him if the lynch was right now. Having played with Epi several times I am aware that what often seems like intentional shiftyness is just him being him.

1. I can't help it if I'm right and you aren't. So sorry.
2. Maybe. All of the above?
3. Ah. Yes. My master stroke. Well played DH.

I refuse to turn this into Epignosis vs. DH. I think that's what he's counting on.

No wait, I will. Let's do it. Counterpoints:

1. DharmaHelper pushed for the MOST anti civilian position there was. He supported a Day 0 option that could make it possible for your vote not to count, your enemy's vote to count more, and for two Mafia to have info that only one civilian would have. Operating under the assumption that all Yotsuba are bad, he gave one random case where civilians benefited from that option (and ignored hundreds of cases where they didn't).

I don't see L/Light as the MOST anti civilian option. I think that would be secret ballot. I've spent several posts explaining how the L/Light mechanic could have been used to civ advantage. You do however have me dead to rights in one regard. I did not post any of the hundreds of permutations of the L/Light mechanic that gave the mafia the advantage. Correctomundo. The one example I did use was a completely randomized example that happened to be civ friendly. It is of course not the only civ friendly example, nor the best example, but it illustrated my point that the L/Light mechanic was not as Light favorable as most people would believe.

2. DharmaHelper is upset that people don't participate or "play the game," but when I do, it's opportunistic, hasty, and ill-thought out. I wonder why that is. DH, what do you think of Ricochet?
Your participation is not at issue, And I don't appreciate you framing my suspicion of you in that light, because it's dishonest and not what I said or intended. Your suspicion of Rico is what is at issue. I found it to be premature and tunnel-visiony. As for my thoughts on Rico, initially I agreed with his points regarding the L mechanic and L/Wat. I do find it odd that his vote did not reflect his spirited discussion regarding L and the L/Light mechanic. I would suspect him less if he stuck to his guns in that situation, but I don't see him as Public Enemy #1.


3. DharmaHelper can read better than this. I play D&D with him. He notices the most minute details, even making fun of some of us like leggyorlyb and me in the process for missing things. And yet he misrepresents what I've said about win conditions (and misuses the word "literally," which is even worse). For the record, my position is this: Lynch all Mafia, but only four people actually are Mafia. They just happen to exist in two factions. One in Yotsuba, and three in the Sympathizers. If you must lynch secondary Mafia to get to the Kiras, fine. But the Kiras a top priority. I believe DharmaHelper is being shady. I do not know why.

The last time someone told me I was "better than this" in a mafia game did not go over so well. Alright, let me see if I have this right. You're saying that the only people we need to kill to win are the Kiras. What I'm saying is that these Kiras have teammates that are likely not civ-friendly, and that makes them all "mafia" in a simplistic sense. boo laid this out, so I won't, Instead I will say that I take no issue with lynching Sympathizers or Yotsuba. Nor do I think that cases pinning anyone as a Sympathizer or Yotsuba subordinate should be discounted. Lynching Sympathizers and Subordinates will give us the information we need to find the Kiras. What I feel like you're saying is that ONLY the Kiras pose a threat and therefore ONLY the Kiras should be lynch targets.



Here is what I want DH to answer: Why do you think the detectives, a group of 12, have to lynch 14 players in order to win?
That's a good question. Maybe not all 14, but I won't shy away from lynching them either, which you seem willing to do. At the end of the day the Detectives are the civvies, so lynching anyone other than them is necessary.



Addendum: Ain't reading boo until I piss.

@Boo I answer RE: Rico in this post. Basically, I was not looking at him until he shifted gears, and now I am. But on the same token, I'm not as sold as Lllama or Epi are.

I want to highlight this:

I said: "2. DharmaHelper is upset that people don't participate or "play the game," but when I do, it's opportunistic, hasty, and ill-thought out. I wonder why that is. DH, what do you think of Ricochet?"

The reply: Your participation is not at issue, And I don't appreciate you framing my suspicion of you in that light, because it's dishonest and not what I said or intended. Your suspicion of Rico is what is at issue. I found it to be premature and tunnel-visiony. As for my thoughts on Rico, initially I agreed with his points regarding the L mechanic and L/Wat. I do find it odd that his vote did not reflect his spirited discussion regarding L and the L/Light mechanic. I would suspect him less if he stuck to his guns in that situation, but I don't see him as Public Enemy #1.

Compare this to DharmaHelper's Day three vote of me. Also note that he called me suspicion of Ricochet "tunnel-visiony." Would he call my view of Russtifinko tunnel-visiony?

DharmaHelper states that lynching any non-detective is necessary. Necessary means it "needs to be done." Detectives need Kira dead. That is all.

On Day 3, DharmaHelper will argue that I am just arguing about Yotsuba and splitting hairs. Doesn't it take at least two people to argue?

Look closely at =/= lynch. Anyway seems we both misrepresent each other's intent here, I'll try to be more clear going forward

For some reason, I just experienced extreme deja vu. No idea why.

must've been a good piss

"Look closely at" did at the time imply to me "Focus on" and in my experience, those that are focused on are likely lynched. Mostly because the ones focusing on these major suspects are the only ones posting and contributing.

Your responses seem level headed enough though.

No big deal for me.

I want to lay this out there too:

DH thinks I'm bad because I think most of the Yotsuba are independents.

If you are bad, what's a clever strategy when you don't have BTSC with more than one person? Widen the net of potential bad guys maybe?

I think you may be bad for several reasons. Being purposefully obtuse being one of them, for example. Add to that your recent framing of my posts in a clearly false and flawed light, and the semblance of a case is there.

I am "purposefully obtuse." That's a nice way of saying "stupid on purpose." I have gone through all of the Day 0 posts so far. Do I look "stupid on purpose" to you? Do I look like I was trying to avoid discussion, or did I come out fighting on Day 0 for the option I thought was best? Why didn't he call out boo for being "purposefully obtuse?" Or S~V~S? Or anyone else who voted the winning Day 0 option?

DH, you're not on a phone. Would it kill you to add quote tags like I do? Jesus.

Then I have to scroll back up and down and shit when I'm typing responses. Nah.

DH is lazy. No biggie.

Meaning you stink at math. Sorry- I will never waver nor be persuaded that the option you picked on Day 0 is civilian-friendly. It isn't, and I demonstrated it in my scenario, and I maintain that you failed in yours.

Meaning I did not see the point in explaining thousands of individual options. So the scenario I presented wherein the majority of not only normal but buffed voters were civilian was not a civ-friendly scenario? Who stinks at math?

Tunnel vision is better than short-sightedness my friend.

This is the shit that annoys me about you, you answer my posts without answering my questions.

Yes. Precisely. Kiras SHOULD be the only lynch targets. Thank you. Because that makes the detectives win. Which is what I've been trying to tell you.

I don't think you are a detective DH. You'd be hotter than this if you were. No offense, but if you ARE a detective, then you are making your win condition harder than it is.

Wrong. Kiras should be the *primary* lynch targets, but not the *only* lynch targets. Lynching for example, Ryuk, could lead to lynching Light,

Linki:

The post where you said I suspect you for participating, which was untrue.

DharmaHelper figured that lynching Ryuk would help us find Light. Why argue that lynching Ryuk, whom we now know can't be lynched, would lead us to Light? It advocates going for secondary, unlynchable Mafia instead of Kira. That is anti-detective.

DharmaHelper's terrible math almost screwed things up, and he thinks I'm responsible. Run 100 examples and see if the civilians would have the advantage. I play D&D with this guy. I would go so far as to say he faked the one example he did use.

Meaning you stink at math. Sorry- I will never waver nor be persuaded that the option you picked on Day 0 is civilian-friendly. It isn't, and I demonstrated it in my scenario, and I maintain that you failed in yours.

Meaning I did not see the point in explaining thousands of individual options. So the scenario I presented wherein the majority of not only normal but buffed voters were civilian was not a civ-friendly scenario? Who stinks at math?

Tunnel vision is better than short-sightedness my friend.

This is the shit that annoys me about you, you answer my posts without answering my questions.

Yes. Precisely. Kiras SHOULD be the only lynch targets. Thank you. Because that makes the detectives win. Which is what I've been trying to tell you.

I don't think you are a detective DH. You'd be hotter than this if you were. No offense, but if you ARE a detective, then you are making your win condition harder than it is.

Wrong. Kiras should be the *primary* lynch targets, but not the *only* lynch targets. Lynching for example, Ryuk, could lead to lynching Light,

Linki:

The post where you said I suspect you for participating, which was untrue.

Yeah, okay DH. I don't know how to play Mafia.

Again not what I said and you're well aware of it. At this point you're just riling me up for giggles, which I understand. What you should understand is that it will not work, and will blow up in your face.

This is a dismissive intimidation. DharmaHelper said it would "blow up in my face." What would? Riling him up is what he calls it, but I maintain that I was engaged and defending my ideas.

Epi (and anyone else) What do you think of this:

WhileHiguchi possesses a Death Note, every night all members of Yotsuba decide on whom Kira should kill.

Not "Once" he possesses it, but "While" he has it, meaning he could lose it? And his team would lose their kill?

This is painting Yotsuba as a team. They aren't a team, and painting them as such detracts from the detective objective.

I like that. "The Detective Objective."

Meaning you stink at math. Sorry- I will never waver nor be persuaded that the option you picked on Day 0 is civilian-friendly. It isn't, and I demonstrated it in my scenario, and I maintain that you failed in yours.

Meaning I did not see the point in explaining thousands of individual options. So the scenario I presented wherein the majority of not only normal but buffed voters were civilian was not a civ-friendly scenario? Who stinks at math?

Tunnel vision is better than short-sightedness my friend.

This is the shit that annoys me about you, you answer my posts without answering my questions.

Yes. Precisely. Kiras SHOULD be the only lynch targets. Thank you. Because that makes the detectives win. Which is what I've been trying to tell you.

I don't think you are a detective DH. You'd be hotter than this if you were. No offense, but if you ARE a detective, then you are making your win condition harder than it is.

Wrong. Kiras should be the *primary* lynch targets, but not the *only* lynch targets. Lynching for example, Ryuk, could lead to lynching Light,

Linki:

The post where you said I suspect you for participating, which was untrue.

Yeah, okay DH. I don't know how to play Mafia.

Again not what I said and you're well aware of it. At this point you're just riling me up for giggles, which I understand. What you should understand is that it will not work, and will blow up in your face.

It will? Why is that?

Ever hear "Let sleeping dogs lie" ?

Don't tug on Supermans cape? Don't spit into the wind? Don't pull the mask of the old Lone Ranger? Don't mess around with...DH

Adding:
Ryuk, Sidoh, and Rem are the Shiningami in the game, right? So their Death Notes are in circulation?

Unimportant because DH has nothing on Jim.

@DH-Give me a break. I've barely been able to keep up with you let alone make meaningful and well crafted additions to the conversation. This is only my second game ever. I haven't had time to formulate any kind of strategy and trying to analyze me would be weird because I'm still trying to figure out how to play. I like to post and I agreed with Boo. That's it.

Welcome to the game, by the way.

I meant the game of mafia, in the broader sense, since this is the first time I'm playing with Zomberella and apparently her second game overall.

Nicknamegate is interesting but I'm gonna catch up on the thread now.

Unimportant.

[Epignosis]

(so many posts in a row) in addition,

1. if Aceofspades' only reasoning for voting L/Light was fun, why did he bother to make a list later of why it's "good?"

My reasoning is that it is the more fun option.

I like to have fun when I play games. The Light/L option is the most fun. Thus I voted for it. There are no other motives for my vote. Don't over think it, we're only on Day 0.

followed by this one - which as I mention above is faulty reasoning anyway

2. Know what's fun? Winning. Baddies want the best chance of winning for the best chance of "having fun"

The post you refer to as "this one". I take it this is the post you are referring to as well when you say Ace made a list of why the L/Light option is "good"?

DharmaHelper is setting Trice up for...

yes

DH himself has given me no reason to think he's good- I cannot reconcile his actions and posts with those of an ideal civilian. There is one thing however, which I won't elaborate on, that is an indicator to me of civility.

Why won't you elaborate on it?

Great, because that's a lie. Ace was not advocating the L/Light option as the good option in that post. This is what he posted:

Nailed it. This + Rob's post are the number one reasons to look closely at L/Light voters in the next few days

You suggest that the L/Light option is where the baddies would vote. And boo suggest that I voted that option in order to fly low. But I put to you that Light and his follows and the other baddies would more than likely vote for the "Normal Lynch". "Normal Lynch" is the safe option. It doesn't rustle any feathers, and if anything that's the option that someone would go for if they wanted to fly low. Lets walk through the thought process of a baddie on day 0. Here is my thought process.


1. Normal Lynch is obviously the most "civie friendly" option because it keeps the most control in the hands of the most people.
2. I put "civie friendly" in quotes because the Normal lynch option is also completely safe for baddies. Baddies don't lose anything from picking it. It doesn't put them in any disadvantage at all.
2. The baddies probably assume that most people will want to keep lynches normal, rather than risk a new mechanic.
3. Baddies like to blend in with the crowd. So they will either vote with the group, or throw their vote away on one of the other shitty options.
4. This has the added benefit of baddies being able to fall back on this silly day 0 poll as a flimsy defense further on in the game. "Oh no, I can't be bad. Remember I voted to keep the lynches normal and safe?"
5. They also get the advantage of having a pool of scape goats to go after from the people who voted for L/Light lynches.

So given all that, why the hell would a baddie vote for L/Light lynches? That's a stupid move for them and the exact opposite of laying low. It makes much more sense to look at the people voting for normal lynches and/or the people tossing their votes away on options that clearly wont win.

Added for Mata: Yes, totally agree. Can't wait to get some.

Added for Boo: Seriously? What are you on about? I promise you, if I ever vote for someone and justify it with " lol so fun" you can all lynch me no questions ask. That is such a ridiculous leap boo.

He's saying that in his mind, its far more likely that a baddie flew under the radar and voted the safe "Normal Lynch" option. His list has nothing to do with his vote reasoning, nor is it an attempt to get people to vote L/Light.

...this. I think this post right here is what gave the Trice lynch its steam.

What is inconsistent is that, regardless what Aces posted, he voted for L / Light.

He said baddies don't lose anything from normal lynch, I said they do. He suggests they do lose something voting for L/Light (becoming part of the "pool of scape goats"), while ignoring the fact that they almost certainly gain a mathematical advantage from that voting option. He's also suggesting that civvies would be voting L/Light and baddies wouldn't

His list, which you said was designed to show that the L/Light option was "good", was designed to show that his theory is that baddies would prefer the Normal Lynch option. There is a distinct difference there.

Look at Aces' post. It's right here. Everything Trice said is there. DH disagreed with a detective about verifiable facts.

In fact we already did that yesterday, did we not? You said you were satisfied.

I was satisfied. Past tense.

Okay, but...

Is there something you aren't satisfied with? Or is aceofspades your teammate and you're cheesed off that I'm fingering him? It's a possibility I'm not willing to rule out. I want to know why epignosis thinks you are a civvie.

I'm cheesed off that you're using deceptive tactics and outright lying in order to push a case.

...DharmaHelper dismissed the case of a now known detective. One cannot fault him for that then- he didn't know. But this evidence shouldn't be dismissed.

Show me where I lied? If, as aceofspades claims, baddies shouldn't vote L/Light, then by extension civvies would be the ones voting it. You for some reason don't agree with that, and it doesn't make me a liar. It just makes you intellectually dishonest. Who is being deceptive to push a case? I think it's you and aceofspades. To your credits, at least you waiting for some civvies to be fooled before voting

You said this:

1. if Aceofspades' only reasoning for voting L/Light was fun, why did he bother to make a list later of why it's "good?"

Which brings into question Ace's personal motives for voting for the L/Light option. Except the list he made has nothing to do with his personal motives, as you implied. It is a list describing a theory that baddies would be more likely to vote for the Normal Lynch option.

I hope you see the twisting that I do. If you don't, it's in the last sentence. DharmaHelper pulled ONE item from that list and used it to color Trice's perception of it. Dismissive AND deceptive.

I think I might give Llama a heart attack, but I think I am considering a vote for a lower poster, Someone I would expect to have had more to say, but who has not stepped up to the plate. Although the plate has been rather crowded for Day One

Because if I was a baddie, I don't know that I would be making aggressive cases, because the baddie I catch might be a teammate. It would be awesome cred, but I dunno, living teammates are more awesome than cred.

Also, @ MP~ is a knowledge of Death Note necessary to effectively play this game?

A lot about how I feel re the Russti theory depends on this answer. If MP says you don't need it, then someone being possible role silenced (which I have never heard of role wise, but it is not impossible, I guess) as it relates to the title of one episode of this show, that involves 2 bad characters (as well as others according to Rico) seems tenuous at best.

It would be a hindrance to gameplay to have to Google stuff all the time to try out a theory.

Although when i Googles "list of Death Note Episodes" one of them is called "Makeshift" and it is focused on the Yotsuba group.

So, from this wellspring of discussion and suspicion and theories and back and forths, you come away wanting to vote for a low poster?

So, from this wellspring of discussion and suspicion and theories and back and forths, you come away wanting to vote for a low poster?

No, that is not what I said. What I said was that I want to vote for someone I would expect to talk more but that is not talking.

Because I don't think the baddies would be making aggressive cases since they don't have BTSC.

And Thank You, MP

Anyone specific?

So, from this wellspring of discussion and suspicion and theories and back and forths, you come away wanting to vote for a low poster?

What's suspicious about that? It seems very sensible to me. I have personally found all the verbose squabbling very unproductive.

What would you find productive?

I'll know it when I see it.

I've found posts from most people other than Epi and DH pretty productive.

No big deal.

It's fairly typical for me to take Day 1 votes. People fear my power.

Same TBH

If DH and aces manage to lynch me, I hope everyone notes what I've been saying when I roll civ

If not, I hope everyone notes what I've been saying when I inevitably get NK'd by them

And now I kind of hope the actual Kiras do end up NKing you, for putting that evil on me.

Even though DharmaHelper would eventually vote for me on Day 1, this shows an anti-Trice mentality, but one in which DharmaHelper wouldn't have to get his hands dirty.

DH – You freak me out! But it sounds like that is normal. I am not a fan of your L/Light poll vote.

That quote is from Zomberella.

It's weird to me that people are categorizing me as quiet when I am the third highest poster in the game. But Aces gets counted as "one of the more vocal players" with only 17 posts. I wonder if we are all reading the same thread.

How many of your posts have been useful? All I can remember you doing is saying very often how all the other discussion you're seeing is invalid.

That is dismissive.

Russ is where I'll likely be voting. He was here and answered all the interrogation room questions. That means there is a game-related reason he isn't posting here, and I cannot surmise a civilian explanation for that.

Come on dude, for real? You're going to likely vote for someone who can't (maybe) defend themselves on Day 1 because you can't think of a civvie reason they wouldn't be able (maybe) to post?

You are making this too easy.

That, too, is dismissive.

It is also inconsistent because DharmaHelper would later pressure me to vote Russtifinko.

AceofSpaces - Not seeing him as bad atm
Bass_the_Clever - Not willing to vote for him right now, but not willing to give him a pass overall.
bea - Nothing stands out
birdwithteeth11 - Nothing stands out
Black Rock - Nothing stands out
boo - Not seeing him as bad.
Boomslang - Commenting mostly on other suspicions/discussions...
DharmaHelper - Definitely civ.
DisgruntledPorcupine - Who?
Elohcin - Nothing pops out.
Epignosis - Slowly creeping up my list.
FZ. - No read.
juliets - No read.
Long Con - No Read.
Made - No Read.
Matahari - Very good at playing low key and clueless when the reality is the opposite.
Metalmarsh89 - No read.
Ricochet - Leaning civ
Roxy - No read.
Russtifinko - No write.
S~V~S - I don't know yet.
Snowman - No read
Spacedaisy - Leaning civ
thellama73 - Who?
triceratopzeuhl - Suspect.
Turnip Head -
Zomberella12 - Found some of her early posts suspect. Not willing to give her a pass for playing the "I'm new here" card.


Epi can you explain to me why your suspicion of Russ is 100% based on the lore of Death Note, and you were ready to lynch Rico for making lore-based assumptions regarding L/Watari?

This is hyperbole, one of DH's most relied upon tactics. I hope you recognize it. I was never "ready to lynch" Ricochet. I engaged him during Day 0 and found better suspects on Day 1. There is nothing wrong with that. Another Mafia tactic is making people feel like they have to vote the way they are leaning at one point even if new information comes to light. This is inconsistent because DharmaHelper has expressed more than one suspect.

EBWOP: Turnip Head - Not liking the wishy/washy post that llama highlighted but not really anything I would put a vote on.

Exactly.

Russ is where I'll likely be voting. He was here and answered all the interrogation room questions. That means there is a game-related reason he isn't posting here, and I cannot surmise a civilian explanation for that.

Come on dude, for real? You're going to likely vote for someone who can't (maybe) defend themselves on Day 1 because you can't think of a civvie reason they wouldn't be able (maybe) to post?

You are making this too easy.

Why can't he defend himself? He has been online. He is capable of posting. I think he got a bad role that requires him not to post until a certain point. It makes sense, is consistent with canon, and it's a mechanic I've used myself. That he is up in the Interrogation Room is, I suppose, bad timing for him.

Making this too easy? Why would I try to make it hard (as you insist on doing- 12 civilians against 14 Mafia. Oooookay DH. )

Epi can you explain to me why your suspicion of Russ is 100% based on the lore of Death Note, and you were ready to lynch Rico for making lore-based assumptions regarding L/Watari?

That's a two-fold loaded question. My suspicion of Russ is not 100% based on the lore of Death Note, but primarily founded on uncharacteristic behavior coupled with an eye for what elements MP would include as a host given the theme. I daresay that if I did not post in a game, you would first in line calling for my head. For someone who doesn't like non-participators, you seem okay with Russ. Any reason why that is?

And I do not suspect Ricochet for making assumptions, but for coming across as disingenuous in making the assumptions that he did, especially with his "I tend to believe the secrets to the roles will be very much related to the story / character traits, which means, and I hope it's no hinting in saying this, that L might get in touch with a couple more detectives." For someone who doesn't like hinters, you seem okay with Ricochet. Any reason why that is?

So to be clear, you suspect Russ because he hasn't been posting since you believe that MP has made it a mechanic in his game (based on the lore of Death Note) that certain roles can't post? You even said that you looked up "Death Note Silence" and found an episode that was Rem/Misa centric. Am I to take away from that you think Russ is Rem/Misa?

And you find this line of thinking logical and completely civvie versus Ricochet doing the exact same thing (Assuming MP made a mechanic in the game centered around the lore of the show), But Ricochet was suspicious for doing that? You were willing to lynch him for doing what you are doing? How does that make sense?

DharmaHelper used lore to backtrack when he thought L and Watari had BTSC. He made up something to cover his ass. I wasn't making up anything.

Let me back up. Epi, you said you suspected Rico because his lore-based assumptions seemed disingenuous.

You have made two lore-based assumptions

1) That a majority of the Yotsuba group pose no threat to the Detectives
2) That Russ, someone who (possibly) cannot defend himself from your vote and suspicion, must be bad because he is not posting.

Do you not see how these assumptions can come across as a touch disingenuous? You expect me to believe that you genuinely want to vote for a non-poster given all thats gone on? You expect me to believe that (without any quantifiable proof) Yotsuba are god fearing honest-to-goodness boyscouts?

Come on son.

"Come on son" is dismissive talk.

Let me back up. Epi, you said you suspected Rico because his lore-based assumptions seemed disingenuous.

You have made two lore-based assumptions

1) That a majority of the Yotsuba group pose no threat to the Detectives
2) That Russ, someone who (possibly) cannot defend himself from your vote and suspicion, must be bad because he is not posting.

Do you not see how these assumptions can come across as a touch disingenuous? You expect me to believe that you genuinely want to vote for a non-poster given all thats gone on? You expect me to believe that (without any quantifiable proof) Yotsuba are god fearing honest-to-goodness boyscouts?

Come on son.

Why does it even matter at this point? If you think Epi is a Yotsuba, do you really think he's the one we should be focusing on now? Unless you think he's a baddie talking about the Yotsuba. If he's a baddie, making the Yotsuba seem baddies to us is much better strategy. Either way, it's a waste of time

Nothing is a waste of time.

If nothing is a waste of time, then why was I told to "come on son?"

Let me back up. Epi, you said you suspected Rico because his lore-based assumptions seemed disingenuous.

You have made two lore-based assumptions

1) That a majority of the Yotsuba group pose no threat to the Detectives
2) That Russ, someone who (possibly) cannot defend himself from your vote and suspicion, must be bad because he is not posting.

Do you not see how these assumptions can come across as a touch disingenuous? You expect me to believe that you genuinely want to vote for a non-poster given all thats gone on? You expect me to believe that (without any quantifiable proof) Yotsuba are god fearing honest-to-goodness boyscouts?

Come on son.

I do expect you to believe that I am willing to vote for a non-poster because I literally said it. Hey DH: I am willing to vote for a non-poster, even after all that's gone on. What about that statement do you find disingenuous or unbelievable? Do you think I have said that I am willing to lynch Russ but secretly want to lynch someone else? Why can't Russ defend himself?

Do you believe this is 12 civilians versus 14 Mafia? If so, why? Is that a balanced scenario? The detectives need the Kiras dead to win. There is one Kira in Yotsuba. Saying that I expect you to believe that Yotsuba are "god fearing honest to goodness boyscouts" exaggerates my position beyond recognition.

I cannot fathom why you insist on misrepresenting my view. Is it deliberate?

What about your lore-based assumptions versus Ricos makes you correct and him disingenuous? Your first assumption (That Yotsuba are for the most part independent rather than a mafia) Is convenient because it helps you on all angles.

1) If you are a Yotsuba, it protects you from civvie prosecution.
2) If you're not a Yotsuba, it protects you from Yotsuba prosecution.

I think you are not a Yotsuba. I think you crafted this view in order to appear as though you were, and you're framing the Yotsuba group in a mostly-favorable light in order not to get lynched, and possibly not to get NKed by the Yotsuba.

Though if you were a Yotsuba, propping them up as irrelevant to the Detective win condition would be a good way to hint to your teammates that, when they cast their votes on who to night kill, they should avoid you.

Your second assumption gives you an excuse to place a vote on someone who will in all likelyhood be unable to stop you, or defend himself. It is also not a popular suspicion, so whoever DOES get lynched today, your hands will be clean. Pretty funny how that works out for you, aint it?

I'm not misinterpreting anything you've put out here. What you said was that you suspected Rico for disingenuous lore-based assumptions. Since then, you've made two pretty clever lore-based assumptions that do nothing but help you.

I cannot fathom why you insist on misrepresenting my view. It is deliberate.

Vote Epi

This is the post where DharmaHelper makes it possible for him to vote for me no matter what I do. That is a tactic one uses to excuse oneself. It's tantamount to victim-blaming. "Well, he had it coming!" If I vote Russ, I'm just keeping my hands clean. Later on, it will be that if I don't vote Russ, I'm not sticking to my guns.

DharmaHelper refused to answer my question and voted for someone who isn't a popular suspect (according to many people who said they weren't interested in voting for me). Maybe he wants to keep his hands clean.

Which question would you like me to answer?

Nothing now. I have your vote, so I no longer feel it necessary to interact with you today, much to the relief of everyone else I imagine.

Vote early and answer questions later.

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

What does this have to do with the game? Do baddies change avatars frequently?

X Kira must adhere to a strict, daily schedule.

Well that's all I wanted to know.

DharmaHelper had already voted. Now he turns everyone's attention back to Trice, a detective (for a lore-based reason). If you can keep your man from getting lynched, then you can avoid accountability. I said this on Day 0.

I'm here. Reading posts from today.

@Llama, so I think my assessment of your posting was based on length not number. I'm gonna have to reassess how I assess. Anyway, not voting for you today.

Brevity is the soul of wit, quoth the Bard.

Wu Tang Clan ain't nothing to fuck with, quoth the Wu Tang Clan.

lol @ BR's vote.

No big deal.

Let me back up. Epi, you said you suspected Rico because his lore-based assumptions seemed disingenuous.

You have made two lore-based assumptions

1) That a majority of the Yotsuba group pose no threat to the Detectives
2) That Russ, someone who (possibly) cannot defend himself from your vote and suspicion, must be bad because he is not posting.

Do you not see how these assumptions can come across as a touch disingenuous? You expect me to believe that you genuinely want to vote for a non-poster given all thats gone on? You expect me to believe that (without any quantifiable proof) Yotsuba are god fearing honest-to-goodness boyscouts?

Come on son.

Why does it even matter at this point? If you think Epi is a Yotsuba, do you really think he's the one we should be focusing on now? Unless you think he's a baddie talking about the Yotsuba. If he's a baddie, making the Yotsuba seem baddies to us is much better strategy. Either way, it's a waste of time

wat

[/domchannel]

What what?
If Epi is Yotsuba, he's definitely not a person we want to lynch first, I think. Because they are not confirmed baddies, or did I get it wrong? If DH thinks he's a baddie because he's not calling the Yotsuba baddies, it makes no sense, because a baddie would want the players to lynch all that are not him, so making the Yotsuba look more like baddies should be his interest

The person most likely to feel it's important to depict Yotsuba as good guys is the one who's a Kira

Which is it?

I see now that she meant the Yotsuba member who is a Kira is the most likely to want to paint the Yotsuba in a positive light

What an interestingly close vote.

35 minutes left and 15 missing votes

Welcome to my hell.

No issue.

It's a shame civs, you are losing out on a really helpful role here hope you can smarten up and still pull through

And so it begins.

RIP Trice it would have been good to have a role that could spy on the boyscouts.

DharmaHelper didn't vote for Trice, but he sure helped get him lynched.

R.I.P Trice. I'm sorry I was wrong about you.

Are you really though.

R.I.P Trice. I'm sorry I was wrong about you.

Are you really though.

You think Ace is the most suspicious of the 8 Trice voters?

No I was just seeking confirmation.

This is incosistent because DharmaHeper never questions Aces again.

Epi why did you not vote for Russ?

You will get no further answers from me.

Epi, why did you not vote for Russ?

My non-vote for Russ was obvious, yet he wanted to blow it up. This is avoiding accountbility because he didn't vote me on Day 2. Think about that.

Epi why did you not vote for Russ?

You will get no further answers from me.

Epi, why did you not vote for Russ?

I don't like Epi's recent antics, but in looking back it does say that Ryuk and Rem cannot be harmed by humans. So what does that mean? Who can harm them?

Other Shiningami and/or people who come in contact with their death note? I dunno.

Knowing the price, would you accept the eyes of a Shinigami?

How much do the eyes of a death god go for?

If I remember rightly from the show, the deal to get Shinigami eyes halves your lifespan?

I got a bit of flak for even mentioning the Shinigami eyes. However, consider this: Does DharmaHelper know the show? If he does, then his "If I remember rightly from the show" comment is just to make it seem like this knowledge isn't a Google away. He is bullshitting you, folks. He is feigning ignorance of things he knows. And that's a fact.

I still don't know what this was for.

Epi, explain your vote or I will vote for you every day for the rest of the game until I get you lynched.

Why is Epi's vote so important to so many people?

Cause this busta said he was gonna vote Russ for a whack ass reason and flaked out.

DharmaHelper is barking, not biting. Notice that on Day 2, he did not vote for me. He's going to vote for me the rest of the game until he gets me lynched. He didn't do that.

My own inner-Epi tells me that nobody else voted Russ so it doesn't really matter that Epi didn't either. Maybe he is waiting to gather more evidence against Russ. That would be a smart way to go.

Nobody else voted for Epi either. Forgoing your own genuine suspicion because its not what everybody else is doing is bullshit.

Again, DharmaHelper forwent his "own genuine suspicion" on Day 2. He, by his own standard, is fake.

I was going to make a rather large post about why I suspect Epi, but I doubt it would get read, so instead I will make a list, and if anyone wants me to elaborate on any specific thing, let me know. I suspect Epi and will vote for him for the following reasons:

1) His fear mongering and shifty behavior in the D0 poll
2) His Hypocritical suspicion of Rico's Lore-Based assumptions, given his own lore-based assumptions.
3) His shoddy, lore-based reasoning for suspecting Russ.
4) The idea that he chose to suspect and claimed that he wanted to vote for Russ, who seemingly could not / cannot defend himself.
5) The fact that he flaked out of this vote rather than sticking to his guns
6) The fact that he did not want to explain why he did not stick to his guns.

1. boo wasn't a fear-mongerer, was he? We had the same opinions.
2. what about your lore-based assumptions when you got caught not realizing a simple thing, how L and Watari didn't have BTSC?
3. Not lore-based. It's player-based. Russ did not post, so I tried to explain his lack of posting.
4. DH despises non-participators, so it's weird that he is defending them.
5. Did I flake, or did I put my vote on another suspicion? I can have more than one suspet, right? DharmaHelper did.
6. I don't understand why "sticking to one's guns" is a civilian trait. I don't think it is. I think it's a way to suspect someone for a bullshit reason. Anti-detective. People can change their minds.

Did I miss where it said why there aren't descriptions for some of the members of the Yabushabu (yellow team)?

I don't know if anyone answered this. I assumed the Youtubers are vanilla?

Does someone want to ask me a question?

Are the Youtubers without role descriptions vanilla?

MP, why did Epi not vote for Russ?

Urge to modkill the next player who acts me a stupid question rising...

Lemme axe you a question homie.

DH can you explain your votes in this night poll please? I am noting some inconsistencies.

The poll said we could vote a total of 9 times and so that is what I did.

Not important.

I found myself agreeing with Epi over the D0 vote but since then he's lost me a bit. This little tiff with DH seems rather pointless to me, as it's not helping at all. We'll have to lynch one of these guys eventually if they can't let their egos cool off and cooperate. That said, maybe this is a calculated move by both of them.

We'll have to lynch you eventually if your criteria for baddieness is disagreement.

Inconsistent. DharmaHelper's main premise for voting me Day 1 was that I disagreed with him on Day 0.

@SVS

3. See 2, although "shoddy" is a bit hyperbole on your part tbh. And for me hyperbole=shoddy, so meh. But yeah, that seemed a very specific assumption re Russti when there are so many role secrets.

Shoddy is hyperbole? I wouldn't suspect him if he suspicion of Russ was any good, lol

Not important.

As for this whole "Standard/Typical Epi" thing:

No. I get up in people''s business when they do this about AP and Vompatti, and I'mma do it here. You cannot excuse someone or give them a pass simply because what they are doing is "typical" of then. Especially if what they are doing is suspicious.

Thats...thats what I said

Avoiding accountability. Notice that DharmaHelper doesn't gun for DisgruntledPorcupine, who is quiet. Notice how he doesn't gun for anybody in this manner. He would even give Snowman a pass on Day 3.

Just kidding I never intended to vote for Epi it was a trap! HAHA!

Lies.

[Epignosis]

I am of the persuasion now that Russtifinko has a role that prevents him from posting, and probably not a good one. He voted. He is present. But he is not posting.

Although I am determined to spoil nothing more for myself (and fucking did anyway), I did a quick Google search: "Death Note" silence.

Interestingly enough, the twenty-fifth episode of Death Note is entitled "Silence." It centers on Rem and Misa.

So huh.

Russ is where I'll likely be voting. He was here and answered all the interrogation room questions. That means there is a game-related reason he isn't posting here, and I cannot surmise a civilian explanation for that.

With all the secrets involved, it would not surprise me that Russti has a role that requires his silence. That there is a Death Note Episode entitled "Silence" featuring Rem and Misa is a delicious coincidence.

I don't understand the purpose this kind of speculating has. Damn near every role has secrets.

Major linkage? You are no good sir.

FWIW my biggest non-Epi suspects I would have to say are FZ and Zomberella.

DH I'm surprised you are seeing Zombrella as potentially bad. What are you seeing from her that leads you to that conclusion? I'm wondering what I missed.

My third suspect is Zomberella for this post
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=541&start=120#p114692

Which I found suspicious because it reads to me like an early attempt to put suspicion on players, but not by directly accusing them. Rather, by accusing them by proxy via boo and having boo do the legwork/put the pieces of that case together, therefore making the results of the case boos responsibility.

This hasn't changed.

DH I'm surprised you are seeing Zombrella as potentially bad. What are you seeing from her that leads you to that conclusion? I'm wondering what I missed.

My third suspect is Zomberella for this post
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=541&start=120#p114692

Which I found suspicious because it reads to me like an early attempt to put suspicion on players, but not by directly accusing them. Rather, by accusing them by proxy via boo and having boo do the legwork/put the pieces of that case together, therefore making the results of the case boos responsibility.

This hasn't changed.

I'm sorry. There are just so many posts I overlooked this one. Thanks!

No need to apologize.

DharmaHelper wants to keep the attention on me, but he mentions other suspects. He never persues these.

See, the thing is I don't think Epignosis is a complete asshole. And for that reason I doubt he is a harmless Youtuber. I think this because we've all been having a very serious discussion about role hinting recently, and if you disagree that Epi's actions thusfar have been designed to hint very heavily at being a harmless Youtuber, we're gonna have words.

That's dismissive. "Anyone who disagrees with my assessment of the scenario is going to have to deal with me."

See, the thing is I don't think Epignosis is a complete asshole. And for that reason I doubt he is a harmless Youtuber. I think this because we've all been having a very serious discussion about role hinting recently, and if you disagree that Epi's actions thusfar have been designed to hint very heavily at being a harmless Youtuber, we're gonna have words.

I think I get what you are saying? Because he has been heavily hinting to be a harmelss youwhatevermagiggie he can't possibly be that because he's not a complete asshole rght? (I note there is no comment on him being a partial asshole. )

Or are you saying you believe his heavy hintings about being a harmless youtubawhatchamacalit, but you don't believe they are harmless.

He obviously wants to push the idea that the majority of the Yotsuba are harmless. Now, the logical conclusion to draw from that is that he himself is a Yotsuba and is being heavy handed in trying to secure his safety in the game. As I said earlier, if we follow the logic that he is a Yotsuba, he's tipped his cohorts off so that they won't vote for him, and made it less likely that he will be lynched (because most people, if they follow his line of thought, will leave the 'harmless' Yotsuba for at best, endgame). The problem there is while pushing the Yotsuba as harmless benefits him by protecting him from Yotsuba kills and lynches, it does not protect him from Light kills, but rather the opposite.

See if you can stay with me on this, because it may be a bit of a stretch, but the thought occurred to me and I'm sort of stream-of-consciousness typing it out. The way a Death Note works is you need to know a persons real name and what they look like in order to use one to kill them. So if Epi really is a Yotsuba, being so incredibly heavy handed about it makes it much much easier for him to be night killed. Though this loses a bit of gas since Light's team does not need the Yotsuba dead to win.


So I guess what I'm saying is that no, I don't think Epi is a harmless Yotsuba because he (I don't think) would role hint so heavily if he were. His motives for doing so elude me, but if I had to guess I would peg him as the Yotsuba Kira or a member of Light's crew for the following reasons:

1) No detective in their right mind would openly push such a crap idea, knowing the suspicion it would bring them. Regardless of the NKing protection it affords from both Light and Yotsuba, it is far too sketchy a stance and would very likely result in his lynch.
2) If he is the Yotsuba Kira, it tips off his cohorts without directly pegging him as the Yotsuba Kira, which could prove fruitful
3) If he is anyone on Light's team, he conceals his real identity, protects himself from lynches by pretending to be a hapless Yotsuba, and protects himself from Yotsuba kills without any real consequence.

All this to say the bottom line is I'm convinced the Yotsuba thing is a ploy, and that no civvie would feel the need to come up with such a ploy.

"A crap idea" is why this post gets the dismissive tag.

Also, it is inconsistent because DharmaHelper advocated voting for me, but he himself did not do so on Day 2.

This has never happened to me. I don't miss votes. Ever! But I had to leave yesterday to watch a movie with my husband and while I wanted to vote before, I couldn't make up my mind, so I decided to wait until after we finish watching, and I fell asleep in the middle of the movie. Now I might get punished and I didn't finish the movie I've been badly wanting to see (Grand Budapest hotel), and we have to return it.


Anyway, I see that you lynched Trice. I'm at work so I don't have time to read everything or check the voting poll, but if it was closely tied with someone else, I'm even more sorry for missing it.

I'll be back later

How can one possibly fall asleep during Grand Budapest Hotel? *votes FZ*

Who would you have voted for, if you would have returned?

I know That's what happens when you go to sleep at 2 am and wake up at 7 am four times a week.

I have no idea, and that's why I waited. I know some people are seeing me as a baddie because I'm kind of all over the place this game, but screw them. I'm allowed to hesitate, and this game is giving me a headache. Too much conversation.
As a player who came from another site where one day lasts 5 real days, and there's endless talk, it was refreshing to not have so much to catch up when I play here. I can't concentrate. That's why I like the speed games, because there are less players. I find it easier to find suspicious posts when they are not drowned in a sea of posts and arguments.

And now back to catching up. By the way, didn't Trice die? Did anyone resurrect him? I guess I'll find out

You don't know who you would have vote for? What?

Dang, I need to go, and I don't think I'll be back before going to sleep. I don't feel comfortable voting for any of those with votes yet Zombarealla, if you're a civvie, I'm really sorry.

*votes zombarealla*

You were literally ready to vote for someone, in the space of about 20 minutes got talked out of it and didn't actually vote, and then missed the vote. Which you knew (it seems to me at least) was a possibility if you didn't vote at that time.

Evidence that, despite claims to the contrary, minorities are not underrepresented in gifs.

Ah, my favorite kind of DharmaHelper: Wrong.

I didn't hint. I corrected assumptions that make this game an impossible 12 civilians vs. 14 Mafia. It is 12 civilians vs. 4 Kira. I am less inclined to believe that someone is a detective who fails to grasp his or her own win condition or expands it to mean eliminating literally everybody else in the game.

Looking back Epi, you suspected FZ because of her absence as well, saying she is probably bad with SD. But FZ has since contributed quite a bit (though she did miss the lynch), and you never updated your suspicion to something current. If you did, then I can't find it.

I don't share your assessment of FZ. I think she has since posted a lot, but the content is not what I associate with good FZ. Good FZ. has a certain tenacity and assurance. She is a focused civilian, one that has proven dangerous to Mafia. I am not seeing that here.

We're definitely not on the same page. Whether or not it's constructive, FZ has contributed of late. Whether you think she's bad or good, you put her in a tough spot by suspecting her for 'being absent'. Same with Russ. Their continued absence will increase the suspicion of them. Also, if they do get around to talking, they'll be under the magnifying glass for being a previous target. It's a lose-lose situation for them.

Now, I do agree with your current observations of FZ. I also earlier missed this post on her, so your vote is more clear to me.

Now, if I may ask. Why do you think it is not foolish to vote someone on Day 1 who does not post on Day 1, but you still wanted to wait until Russ posted to vote for him?

Russ hasn't posted at all. Period. It's Night 1 and he still has not posted. This is unusual for him and something that warrants attention. I'm not sure if that answers your question. I suspect FZ. for entirely different reasons than I suspect Russ.

Aight.

I won't comment on this one.

I am of the persuasion now that Russtifinko has a role that prevents him from posting, and probably not a good one. He voted. He is present. But he is not posting.

Although I am determined to spoil nothing more for myself (and fucking did anyway), I did a quick Google search: "Death Note" silence.

Interestingly enough, the twenty-fifth episode of Death Note is entitled "Silence." It centers on Rem and Misa.

So huh.

Russ is where I'll likely be voting. He was here and answered all the interrogation room questions. That means there is a game-related reason he isn't posting here, and I cannot surmise a civilian explanation for that.

With all the secrets involved, it would not surprise me that Russti has a role that requires his silence. That there is a Death Note Episode entitled "Silence" featuring Rem and Misa is a delicious coincidence.

I don't understand the purpose this kind of speculating has. Damn near every role has secrets.

Major linkage? You are no good sir.

Or this one.

That's gonna be hard to fit in an avatar, DH.

True dat.

Unimportant.

From a detective's perspective, one who believes that Russ cannot be one of the vanilla Yotsuba, there is a 52.3% chance Russtifinko is not a detective. Someone feel free to correct my math. I did this in a hurry because I am cooking and I have to leave soon.

I don't understand your point. Mainly due to the fact that (unless I'm mistaken) the odds are similar or actually worse that anyone else is a non-detective role?

I said I did it in a hurry. If Russ isn't vanilla Yotsuba, Trice's role, and the role you are (if you are a detective), then it's more likely Russ is bad was my meaning.

Alrighty, but is the same not true (or even worse) for literally everyone else?

My point being I don't want to put faith in a suspicion founded on little more than a coin flip.

Waving off my perspective as "little more than a coin flip."

TH Has already voted for Llama

An observation.

Well Epi, those reveals make me interested to know why you wanted to know if people would accept the eye deal...

A re-run.

I found myself agreeing with Epi over the D0 vote but since then he's lost me a bit. This little tiff with DH seems rather pointless to me, as it's not helping at all. We'll have to lynch one of these guys eventually if they can't let their egos cool off and cooperate. That said, maybe this is a calculated move by both of them.

We'll have to lynch you eventually if your criteria for baddieness is disagreement.

Good luck with that My criteria for baddieness is not disagreement. Don't continue this day after day. Vote Epi and if you can't get the support to lynch him, move on until you can. This sort of thing can easily derail discussion and I don't want that.

Bogged down by work today and it's late so I'm going to bed. I have 5 pages to catch up which I will endeavour to do tomorrow. Got a busy weekend but I will do my best to contribute.

Me? Move on? You do know who I am right?

Perhaps DharmaHelper should take his own advice and learn to "get over it?"

I don't have an avatar for this situation.

Might I suggest reducing a cow patty to 150x150?

I'm hearing a lot of "This is not typical FZ." not so much "This is not typical civ FZ." can anyone reconcile the two for me?

By this point, one should see that DharmaHelper already has his mind made up. He has no intention on voting FZ., but he asks about her just to appear civilian.

I'm satisfied. What about you guys?

If it's such an obvious mechanic as Epi is making it sound like, when he's 7 episodes in, why did no one who has seen all of it not already mentioned it as a mechanic we should be worried about, and DH, who has seen it was still suspicious of Epi (at least before he gave the explanation). So either it's an elaborate set up by everyone who knows the theme to get Epi killed, or it's a minor thing and it's still weird Epi thinks it is so obvious it's a game mechanic and it's weird he just happened to bring it up before any non-baddie could know it was in the game with certainty.

In all fairness, I was aware of the Shinigami Eyes as they relate to the show and silently considered they could play a part in the game. I just felt like it would be more appropriate to wait until more information presented itself before I added my two cents.

If you are a detective with this knowledge, then why not come out with it sooner? Doesn't seem very civilian-friendly to me.

Why do you think Russ didn't post on Day 1, boo?

That's becoming a really tedious question. Doesn't anyone want to ask anything else?

Epi, how come you didn't vote for Russ?

A lot of people using the word boring in this game so far. You know who else uses that word in DN? Ryuk.

Just as a neat little factoid, 58% of currently alive players have no vested interest in lynching non-detective roles.

Mata's pinging me a bit. Her post ^^ looks like it has a baddie mindset to it, specifically a baddie without BTSC trying to figure out what's going on.

Walk me through how it is you arrived at this conclusion.

I read Mata's post and then that's the impression I got from it.

What about her post gave you this impression?

I forgot to mention that I consolidated the "Natural Suspect" and "Elusive" categories into one, because as I was building my list I realized they were somewhat similar.

Also, as you can see I labeled everybody a Thinker, because everyone has expressed thought at some point. They are still ranked according to overall contribution (according to me).

How generous of you to exclude yourself from the top 10.

For those who cannot see TH's avatar

For those who cannot see TH's avatar

I see TH's avatar and it is not that.

Well, my powers of deduction conclude that BR has indeed not kept up with the thread discussion.

The avatar I linked was mine for a short time. The joke being my resilience in trying to get Epi to answer the pictured question

Not important.

[Epignosis]

I think people generally put too much stock in the idea of someone newer being "coached" in the thread. In my experience, it rarely happens. To suggest that Snowman is NOT in BTSC because of the lack of coaching on "bandwagon" is not something I would ever consider a reasonable assumption. Even if he had BTSC, I doubt that he would run everything he says through the chat before he posts it.

WANTON SPECULATIONS

Gonna read up on the talk I've missed.

Not important, but Long Con was killed.

Actually votes by other Shinigami would kill Ryuk and the other Shinigami if, say for example, the vote was unanimous.

Nah I was wrong. I read "Votes by humans do not affect him" and did not think about the rest.

Feel free to disagree with me, but I find this to be fake ignorance. Now that we know what we know, this just doesn't read right.

From here.

Something I want others' opinions on:

What do we think of the idea that some of these role secrets could be faked?

What makes you say that?

A lore based assumption.

Would you like to be more vague please?

In the show, at some point someone adds fake rules to a Death Note. Death Notes come with "rules" on like the first page that dictate how to use one.

Ok, I know nothing of the show but aren't death notes different from the roles?

My thought process was, continuing the thought that MP would put as much of the show as possible into the game, the best way to incorporate the rules/fake rules of the Death Notes was to use it on role secrets.

Introducing false ideas into the pool is not pro-detective.

Also, this is fear-mongering, is it not?

EBWOP: Though I can see MP bashing his keyboard on the table shouting "Why the fuck did I not think of that"

Maybe he did.

Boo, you said that Snowman hasn't had a chance to defend himself. I disagree. It has been more than 24 hours since the Day has started.

How long do you consider to be an adequate "chance to defend oneself" before you would be comfortable voting for someone (not necessarily Snowman)?

A reasonable person would wait until they have to actually vote or risk missing the vote before deciding the person isn't going to respond.

So your contention is that Snowman "has not had the chance to respond" until the very moment of the poll closing? Surely you can see that this is madness.

No this is Patrick

I will have some things to say soon.

Not important.

My back seat taking is intentional. I understand I can be bullheaded and uncompromisingly ruthless, as well as my ability to take much of the spotlight for myself. So I didn't do that today, instead opting to allow discussion to be had by/about others.

Not important.

To be honest I'm not even fully caught up. I hope to be by the time I have to vote though. As it stands now, having not fully read/digested the Llama/Boo discussion, I'm likely to vote either Snowman or Zombrella. I understand this might seem like a cop out, but my suspicion of Zombrella lingers, and Snowman has been pinging me as well. I'm at the point in my reading where Epi discusses his suspicion of Snowman, and I agree with it. I do not agree with any of the "He's new" defenses people have been posting

I will form an opinion on the boo/llama stuff once I've read it all.

FZ. vs Bea - Bea is like this a lot, but she's also very good at doing what she does and being bad. FZ has struck me so far as moderately more suspect than the people she is bringing up.

TH is not someone I want to waste any more time on right now. If he is a Shinigami, it would be pointless. If he's not one, mathematically speaking, eventually we'd figure this out by way of either the other Shinigami revealing themselves or by TH dieing. So.

Is there anything anyone wants my two cents on?

DharmaHelper voted Snowman on Day 2, but chose to vote for me Day 3. That's inconsistent for someone who said I should stick to my guns.

I just want to throw my two cents in on something here. I'm not a fan of the "new player" excuse. New players can be evasive and post next to nothing of value and they are given a free pass? I don't like that. I haven't seen anything constructive from Snowman, and I don't care if he's a new player or not.

It's like we're brothers or something.

Brothers. Yes.

I'mma vote for Snowy now since today was kind of a shitty day in terms of productivity for me and I have to go do other stuff.

Why didn't he vote for me? Why didn't he vote for Snowman on Day 3?

I also think Long Con is Yotsuba.

So what you're saying is you don't want to lynch him

I also think Long Con is Yotsuba.

So your teammate then. I could see it.

Sassy!

The poll right now is hilarious.

Unimportant.

I think today we learned that you sheep need a strong shephard, and it was a mistake of me to deny you your glorious leader for 48 hours.

I haven't deleted the other avatar I've ever used on thi-

oh wait we voted the same way didn't we

Did we? Its so hard to keep track of who you say you are going to vote for.

This is wholesale dismissiveness of other people's attempts to find Kira. DharmaHelper has no better record than anyone.

Aw dang Epi we lynched a boyscout

"Boyscout" is a way to remain dismissive through the guise of humor.

Hi, I'm DharmaHelper. Once when I was a kid I was being sarcastic, and I got bit by a radioactive spider and now I can't stop being sarcastic.

Poor spider.

From this post.

Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

It isn't cocaine. It's Made.

I was gonna try and keep trucking through my catch up then I read beas post. lol no.


@Eloh - I said the 58% thing, but I think the bulk of the "Eloh is trying to rationalize her kills" suspicion came from the highlighted area.

I've been saying this for a while now. Someone else, DH, Ace, can't remember said that 58% of us don't want to kiss non-detectives. This game seems to be less of a civvie/baddie/independant type game. Even as a viewer of the show, (as I said before) it's difficult to decide who to go for....Light or the Detectives. Both feel they are doing what is good and right.

I honestly think it might be best that we stop referring to each other as civ or bad and instead as kira or detectives.

Which are all things you said.

So that way was wrong too? Would you rather I go back to just posting a reply to every post I read so you wake up to like 10000 posts from me? I miss alot on weekends because of time zones and because I don't get done working till after 2 AM my time. Literally everyone in the world is asleep. Help me help you make my catch up posts less painful.

Or don't laugh at me.

Either or.

*turns beas Humor Detector on*

Not important to me.

Let me just say this before I dive back into the thread to get 100% caught up.

What the fuck are we doing? Epi hasn't hinted or claimed Yotsuba, but we're all acting under the assunption that he is one. TH hasn't hinted or claimed Shinigami (That I can read) but people have given him that role and he's run with it. Russ hasn't hinted or claimed anything, yet Epi (at least) is completely discounting him because he was absent for a few days.

Did we solve the role hinting problem by creating a role-attributing problem?

Rather than consider someone's view, this post simplifies and dismisses those views. For example, I wasn't just ignoring Russ because was "absent a few days." My perspective was far more nuanced than that.

This. Very seriously this

*turns SVS's hu....* My god! its full of cookies!

Unimportant.

For this post.

Rather than concentrate on Zomberella's point, that this was an opportunity for Snowman to make a case, DharmaHelper quotes an irrelevent post going back to Day 0.

Yes. You mention above that your suspicion of Zombrella lingers and in our current conversation you raise her name again. What is the basis for your suspicion? I know you must have explained it somewhere but I can't find it. Just link me if you like.

sorry, i screwed up the post. It's a question for DH if that helps.

I should point out that you've asked that question of me before and the answer is the same

sorry, i screwed up the post. It's a question for DH if that helps.

I should point out that you've asked that question of me before and the answer is the same

About Zombrella? You're sure? I'ma quit playing until I'm well.

Yes, juliets asked the same question before, but she was sick. You should be nice to a sick juliets.

[Epignosis]

SVS, can I please have a cookie?

Zomba, Snowman has answered about you~ what do you think of him? You were a bit waffly yesterday; first you said you would vote for him, then not so much. He is playing a fun, rollicking kind of game (the kind I used to play and am trying to get back to); is this an aspect of his rl personality?

Linki @DH~ I have not seen anything alarming about Zomba, either. But just becasue someone disagrees with your suspicion does not make it illegitimate. This game started out (as far as I can see) with only four people who knew someone elses identity. So even the baddies are flying in the dark a bit, which I rather like. Also lots of people who are unfamiliar with each others various styles in this game, which I also like. So I think there are going to be more small pings than normal.

I think you mean 6 players started out knowing another player's identity.

I have to reread the roles. I thought there was a pair of detectives, Raye & Naomi, and a pair of baddies, Light & Ryuk. Who did I miss?

Watari technically knows who L is. So that's 5. Not sure off the top of my head who six is.

Just a molehill, but if DH were going to respond to a question like this, why go off the top of his head? The front page isn't that hard to get to.

It doesn't help that her defense of this accusation thus far has been

1) Gee Willakers! I'm new!

2) Golly Gosh! that was so long ago!

Apparently your accusation was not legitimate, so... what are you worried about?

I don't understand what you mean.

Oversimplifications are, if anything, unhelpful and uncharitable.

From this post.

I'm not sure you're understanding my point, so in fairness I will explain it a bit better:

You accused Snowman of throwing something out into the thread in the hopes that someone else would take it and run with it. I highlighted that part of your post. This is obviously suspicious to you because you express a desire to hash out your Snowman thoughts with llama.

In a direct comparison, I pulled the quote of yours I found suspicious from D0, wherein you (in my view) float the idea out there that baddies understand boos logic and are fine with voting for the L/Light option given the alleged risk of doing so. You put the idea out there, very surgically so. It read to me, as I expressed, as an attempt to get other people to do the leg work of accusing specific L/Light voters so that you didn't have to.

To recap:

You and Snow did the exact same thing. You think Snow is suspect for doing it, but when you did it, it was with good intentions. Whether you did it on D0 or D10 is irrelevant.

Linki -

@Zomberella - I don't care if you are behind in reading. I am behind myself. What I said was your defense was "I'm new, cut me some slack." Which is, as I said, irrelevant.

@Marsh hopefully this explanation post helps you then.

@DH-Give me a break. I've barely been able to keep up with you let alone make meaningful and well crafted additions to the conversation. This is only my second game ever. I haven't had time to formulate any kind of strategy and trying to analyze me would be weird because I'm still trying to figure out how to play. I like to post and I agreed with Boo. That's it.

There you go Marsh.

I think Snowman was right, it was pretty telling how you handled this accusation, Zomb.

This reads to me like an attempt to weasel his way out of a consistent Snowman vote. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. DharmaHelper judges others by whether or not they "stick to their guns." That's easy to do when you have a lot of guns.

Did you make that "Whatever DH, I don't care what you think" post before you read what I think?

Zomberella makes a case on Snowman (after DharmaHelper voted for Snowman- this is Night 2, mind you), but DharmaHelper seems fixated on minimalizing Zomberell's contribution.

I don't know if I'd say she's wilting under the pressure, but she's come across to me as very slippery and defensive/deflective.

Again, this is a way to weseal out of having to vote for Snowman again.

Bear in mind that earlier, DharmaHelper had said: "To be honest I'm not even fully caught up. I hope to be by the time I have to vote though. As it stands now, having not fully read/digested the Llama/Boo discussion, I'm likely to vote either Snowman or Zombrella. I understand this might seem like a cop out, but my suspicion of Zombrella lingers, and Snowman has been pinging me as well. I'm at the point in my reading where Epi discusses his suspicion of Snowman, and I agree with it. I do not agree with any of the "He's new" defenses people have been posting." So much for sticking to one's guns.

Detectives win when all killers (Kiras) have been stopped and justice has prevailed.

Does anyone think the use of the word stopped, instead of killed, means anything?

Assuming the idea that the death notes can be removed from their possession is accurate, yes.

Unimportant.

I have two pages to catch up on, but I want to comment on a few things before reading on as I have things to get to before I can sit an read for a bit.

Elohcin's game has evolved to the point where such insight is no longer reliable.

You heard it guys. I am becoming a better Mafia player.

I was gonna try and keep trucking through my catch up then I read beas post. lol no.


@Eloh - I said the 58% thing, but I think the bulk of the "Eloh is trying to rationalize her kills" suspicion came from the highlighted area.

I've been saying this for a while now. Someone else, DH, Ace, can't remember said that 58% of us don't want to kiss non-detectives. This game seems to be less of a civvie/baddie/independant type game. Even as a viewer of the show, (as I said before) it's difficult to decide who to go for....Light or the Detectives. Both feel they are doing what is good and right.

I honestly think it might be best that we stop referring to each other as civ or bad and instead as kira or detectives.

Most mafia games (even though evenly balances hopefully) are lots of civs vs. a few baddies. I was just pointing out that this game seems to be pretty even if not more baddies than civvies. It made me wonder why people are so willing to admit they are detectives. As for talking about both sides feeling they are doing what is right. I was specifically talking about the SHOW. But anyway....TH pointed out to me that its basically detectives vs kiras and that yotsuba don't seem to play much of a part in the win conditions, so......my thoughts on the matter have changed a good bit. So really...this argument is no longer relevant. Okay, time to go cook for for little people and perform other motherly responsibilities. I shall be back to catch up.

Alrighty.

Almost all detectives are btsc-less.

Unimportant.

Without pulling posts, I had the impression that S~V~S and boo were Raye and Naomi. I no longer have that impression.

I will admit that my suspicion of S~V~S was reactionary- S~V~S would not vote for boo without a "smoking gun," but she would vote for me on a whim. While that annoys me, it shouldn't cloud my judgment. I find S~V~S to be awfully inconsistent in practice across the board. I believe that is one source of contention between S~V~S and me, or for that matter, S~V~S and thellama73. She's a "gutter," not a "caser." I can accept that, even if I disagree with her approach and even if I am the victim of that approach.

Obviously, I suspect her for ballooning the detective win condition into basically needing everyone dead to win. But I know she gets paranoid. Drive me insane, but I'm sure I have the same effect.

I think what you all need to start asking yourself is this: What would Kira do without the support of a team? Essentially, we're up against a handful of Serial Killers, one of which has a partner, and some of which that do not even have a kill.

What I mean is this: Rather than go on and on about how someone acted in this game or that game, explore how a person might act by having a vanilla Mafia role (i.e., no BTSC or kill). That person would just be looking to survive until the point when he DOES get the kill, right?

I would advise you all to do your rereads with that in mind.

"I believe she is awfully inconsistent" says the man who has been completely inconsistent.

This comment oversimplifies what I said and summarily dismisses it.