Death Note Mafia [END]

[Epignosis]

Some people do not act or feel like baddies to me, so at this stage, I feel OK about them. I am not sure why you would ask people to name the people they feel OK about. I would like to hear more from BR, but what I have heard was OK.

But I feel OK about Llama, actually; he & I disagree, but everything he did was in character. I feel OK about boo. I feel better about FZ than I did. So far so good on Matahari. I feel pretty OK about Zomba. Bea I am not sure about. MM pinged me early, with the little fit he pitched, and has been being way nice to me since. Hrm.

No real read on Boom, or Bass. Zeek seems a tad pissy about being quesitoned. I have no clue what TH is up to, but it's funny. Snowman is a blank; the case against him was weak, but the fact that his wife thinks he's bad, and his reaction to her post, is making me rethink that. I don't trust you as far as I can throw you. I want to trust DH, but the last game is too close. I wish Russ would post more.

I am a bit leery of Eloh, but only a tiny bit. That comment about not saying baddies/civvies pinged me a bit, but her explanation went most of the way towards settling that. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I am trying to listen to the small voice, rather than all the big "personalities" monopolizing the thread.

What question about boo? I might have missed it in this thread.

Linki @ Mata

I don't know how I feel about you wanting to trust me. If I were you, I'd consider me guilty until proven innocent. I think that has yielded better results in terms of your reads of me in the past.

I know, that's why I said the last game is too close. I don't trust you as far as I can throw you, either. I want to, though. You sound so reasonable

I'm trying to be. My problem comes in that this is an MP game, and so much is up in the air right now. Once some of these spinning plates start to fall, I'll have a much better grip on things.

"Guilty until proven innocent" is not the methodology DharmaHelper has been employing. I realize that in context, he is referring S~V~S's read of him, but it would seem that the methodology would apply across the board.

I like SVS's "who would kill Long Con?" question very much. That seems like a fruitful avenue to explore, and I will have to think about it a lot before casting my next vote.

I would. Long Con would have been my first kill. I am amazed that he lasts as long as he does in games. He's manipulative and dangerous. Even in the Game of Champions, he only took had one NK against him, and that was at his request.

ooo WIFOM

Cause bros before infos

Indeed.

I predict "No one has been killed" Followed by someone behaving oddly, followed by that person's death.

A prediction.

So you're eliminating Epi from being Kira because Long Con suspected him?

Would you kill someone who was gunning for you on the first night? It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

Yes. Becasue then people say,

Would you kill someone who was gunning for you on the first night? It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

They say it every game. Someone who had strong suspicions of a person is NKed, and everyone says, "Oh, the dead guy suspected RacerX. But RacerX would never do that, it's too obvious." And they move on, leaving RacerX to chortle in his chatroom. Sometimes RacerX IS a civ, so it's cool. Bit sometimes he isn't and he gets away with it ALOT. It happens all the time. I have been RacerX; you have never done that? Ever?

My turn for WIFOM:

I put off killing any strong accusers of myself many times. Often to my own detriment. But I have a method to that madness that helps me rationalize it. It's part of why I didn't kill LC in the last GoC. He was being loud and accusing me a lot, but nobody gave a shit so I just let him do it.

Long Con was Gollum in the Game of Champions, who could not be Night killed. Long Con knew DharmaHelper was bad, which is why he was calling him out. Initially, I thought it was foolish, since Long Con knew that he shared DharmaHelper's win condition at that time. But I learned that he was hoping to trick the Sorcerers into Night killing him so he could choose a new person to have BTSC with. For the longest time, DharmaHelper thought Gollum was zeek. I find this example misleading- it was not a typical civilian calling out a Mafia member through deductive reasoning, but rather an independent "slave" trying to court a Night kill to be freed.

Lemme get caught up

Caught up. Goddamn those secrets are a doozey and a half aint they?

Caught up and read the secrets in eight minutes. No big deal. Just an observation.

I know you're disingenuous on purpose a lot as a civ, Epi, and that's what makes it so hard to read you, but I need to hear something that strikes me as a genuine civ-Epi thought. That's all I'm trying to get at.

Then I guess you will just have to vote me.

Oh wait.

For those of us who haven't voted for you, but might be considering it. could you at least pretend to put some effort forward?

No. Those who will vote me have already made up their minds. I plan on taking tomorrow off. I may post, but I may not.

I don't think I've ever seen "Taking my ball and going home" Epi before. I don't like it. Change back into a pumpkin please.

I should just "pretend to put some effort forward" is not constructive. My entire point was that someone (two people, actually) voted for me as soon as Day 3 began without putting forward a reason.

*now

This is literally your job. You are paid by the government money to teach English.

Yep. That's why government shouldn't be in charge of education. Or most anything, really.

*when it BECAME apparent.

It's my job too, DH.

Shameful display.

Indeed.

Tomorrow I will be posting my thoughts on everyone, but I'm way too tired tonight.

Okay.

I also predict that the detectives will lose.

Well thank Christ you're doing everything you can to prevent that.

Must be the damn spider.

I also predict that the detectives will lose.

Well thank Christ you're doing everything you can to prevent that.

I have been trying, but (no thanks to you either) I am a suspect.

Catching Kira is luck-based. Lots of people don't want to act like it is but it is.

Good luck catching Kira.

Everyone is a suspect.

Yes...and?

"I am a suspect" is therefore not an excuse for anything.

As a side note, We are at best looking at 45% of players who have a vested public interest in not lynching detectives. Thats *best* case scenario.

This manipulates my meaning, that I may have to vote to save myself. When that happens to you, looking for suspects becomes of less importance. Mafia count on this, which is why they frequently set up false dilemmas.

It is also inconsistent because, for example, DharmaHelper thinks spacedaisy is a civilian, which means everyone (from his perspective) is not a suspect.

Catching Kira is luck-based. Lots of people don't want to act like it is but it is.

Oh look a dog meme.

By the way, DH said he was going back to being vocal and "leading" us like we obviously need, but I don't see anything worth while from him.

What do you mean? I'm in the process of collecting my thoughts literally as I type this. I haven't voted yet.

This is inconsistent, because in less than four hours, DharmaHelper is going to say "Fuck it" and vote me.

Where has it been definitively stated that LC was a Yotsuba?

It wasn't.

I see there is a theory that I have the Shinigami eyes and that I checked LC, learned that he was Yotsuba, and then killed him

Point out where you saw this theory because I would very much like to see it.

No one said you took the Eye deal... That's definitely a good way to test for it though.

No? Then what was your purpose with these posts?

How does the Kira find out our names anyway. Maybe we could figure it out using the LC k.

I do think it's interesting that LC died right after Epi identified him as Yotsuba. Given how the Shinigami Eye Deal works, I wonder if writing someone's name in the notebook requires that you also know the target's allegiance.

Just like I think it's possible that Epi is Kira, figured out LC's role, and killed him regardless of his role.

Ah there it is. Apologies for missing it, I've completely discounted TH's posts as being trollbait.

Turnip Head is operating as a troll, according to DharmaHelper, which I daresay is worse than being "dead weight."

Alright so this is not going to be a quote-pulling post, rather just my thoughts on each player as I read through their posts. Lets get started. *Editors Note: I realized I was gonna have to make multiple posts, so I covered what was on my mind right now in this post and will do the others later. The numbers are off because I copy/pasted from the front page, numbered those, and cut out the ones I'm covering later.*

1. AceofSpaces - I appreciate the effort he's put into the game up until now. Even if he was wrong about Trice, at least he put himself out there and went guns blazing for his suspect. I do want to point out something that has caught my eye reading back on him. Early on Day 1 he expressed a suspicion of Made, that seems to have gotten lost in the trice discussion. I am wondering where Ace stands on Made now? Made is not even in his "here are my thoughts" post after the Trice lynch.

2. Bass_the_Clever - *Very* blendy and sketchy. Not really putting forth anything that hasn't already been put forth. His suspicions are difficult to nail down, as most of his posts are "I don't know what to think about this" or something similar.

3. bea - Very friendly and blendy initially. In my experience, bea often posts big posts without saying much, or by repeating basically the same idea over and over. I am curious to hear from bea how she went from thinking FZ.'s case was a "no u" to it making bea feel better about FZ. Because that to me is a bit sketchy.

8. DisgruntledPorcupine - Typical non-factor play style from DP. I could spend a whole post getting mad about it but I will not.

10. Epignosis - His recent behavior is certainly suspect. Overall it feels like, to me, he's spending a majority of his time chastising people instead of looking for Kiras as he has repeatedly said we need to do. For someone who is concerned with turning the focus away from the Yotsuba, he is certainly not shy about reminding us about the Yotsuba every other post. Also, his crybaby fit last night made me feel even worse about him. I didn't realize Eloh was serious when she was talking about cutting his balls off.

22. Turnip Head - Almost as much of a non factor as DP. I will not be considering anything TH brings to the table as legitimate, as I think its pretty obvious he's just fishing for a reaction.

I'm not being a big enough man for DharmaHelper.

Conspicuously absent from this list is any read of Snowman, whom DharmaHelper voted Day 2.

Is fishing for reactions a bad thing, DharmaHelper?

Its not a fantastic thing. You obviously are unconcerned with legitimate discussion, so I am unconcerned with any discussion you are concerned with,

Again, Turnip Head and DP are not contributing to the discussion (according to DharmaHelper), but this doesn't make either of them worth his vote.

awe - I wasn't even gone that long and I was missed. *feels the love* It warms my heart it does.

Just weird scheduling cause me to drop off there yesterday. Stayed up far to late Sat night (6 am) in an attempt to try to figure out how to ninja my hubby's up coming birthday. (Still not very far along on that front sadly ) - Went to bed - woke up in time to make it to work at 4 - closed - came home ate dinner and bed. Just now getting moving and getting some coffee in me.

DH - I said FZ's case felt kinda like a No U as I was reacting to it yes. And yes, it oddly did kinda help ease my feelings toward her. I expected her to bite back and she did. I would have been sketched out if she just sorta blew it off. Does that make more sense? Also my bad feelings about her eased as we talked through out the day more. I wouldn't say she's in my super trust list. I don't think anyone is there yet. But I don't necessicarly think she has earned my vote again either. Does that make more sense?

Let's say it does.

This kind of response doesn't advance discussion any more than what DP or TH are doing.

You know what, fuck it. I'm gonna vote Epi now. He is either a baddie pulling this stunt, or he is somehow not a baddie, but completely disinterested in making any kind of sense. Dead weight either way. Voting now :P

Here is DharmaHelper's vote post. Notice once again that it frames in such a way that he can shrug off accountability. If I get lynched and I'm not bad, then he can shrug his shoulders and say I was

"dead weight anyway."

You know what, fuck it. I'm gonna vote Epi now. He is either a baddie pulling this stunt, or he is somehow not a baddie, but completely disinterested in making any kind of sense. Dead weight either way. Voting now :P

Why didn't you vote Zomberella?

*Something about Yotsuba being an independent team*

*Artificial indignation*

Another jab at me, I take it.

You know what, fuck it. I'm gonna vote Epi now. He is either a baddie pulling this stunt, or he is somehow not a baddie, but completely disinterested in making any kind of sense. Dead weight either way. Voting now :P

Yes. I am disinterested. I've done what I could, but all it turns into is "stuff to use against Epi later." I am voting Snowman and will allow the rest of the voters to decide if they want me around or not. I'm tired.

Very convincing case, MM, I hadn't put together all those inconsistencies from Epi. Although I'm not sure on you, your points are persuasive. I may vote Epi if he convince me otherwise.

I really don't know what to make of all the strange behaviour in this game tbh, feels like it's going to be quite a random game.

Go for it zeek. I didn't even read MM's case on me and don't plan to post any manner of defense. I'm the easy choice today and I'm okay with that. If you're a detective though, lynching me won't help you.

If you're ready to quit at Day 3 then I am ready to help you.

Another measure to avoid accountability ("Hey, he quit anyway").

I feel that too, but you can't ignore the fact that he hasn't followed any of his suspicions

On Day 1, I wasn't going to throw my vote away. On Day 2, I made up my mind at the last second to try to save bwt, because I thought the lynch on him was bullshit, especially supported by some of the "let them defend themselves first" mindset. Snowman had a chance and did not, but poor bwt just came home to find out he was lynched. Bullshit.

If any of you do decide to follow DharmaHelper's vote, I want you to keep in mind a few things. First, he and I argued a bit about accountability, and I argued that some people would try to dodge accountability for their vote. DH said that everyone would be accountable for their votes. However, DH framed it so that anything I did could result in him voting for me (if I voted Russ on Day 1, I was just trying to keep my hands clean, but if I didn't vote Russ, then I wasn't following through on my suspicion). Now he says that he's okay voting me even if I'm not bad because I'm dead weight. I don't get offended by things people say, but that stung a little.

DharmaHelper has freed himself of any responsibility voting for me. He doesn't care if I'm Kira. He just wants me gone. Anyway, if your rationale for voting me is that I'm "dead weight," then what is stopping you from voting Snowman? If I get lynched instead of him, then that means someone who really is not contributing gets another pass, and my game will be over. I think that sucks.

Well that's just manipulative.

Again, nothing I say can be genuine from DharmaHelper's perspective. I will admit that some of my points can be weak, but it doesn't make them not genuine.

I feel that too, but you can't ignore the fact that he hasn't followed any of his suspicions

On Day 1, I wasn't going to throw my vote away. On Day 2, I made up my mind at the last second to try to save bwt, because I thought the lynch on him was bullshit, especially supported by some of the "let them defend themselves first" mindset. Snowman had a chance and did not, but poor bwt just came home to find out he was lynched. Bullshit.

If any of you do decide to follow DharmaHelper's vote, I want you to keep in mind a few things. First, he and I argued a bit about accountability, and I argued that some people would try to dodge accountability for their vote. DH said that everyone would be accountable for their votes. However, DH framed it so that anything I did could result in him voting for me (if I voted Russ on Day 1, I was just trying to keep my hands clean, but if I didn't vote Russ, then I wasn't following through on my suspicion). Now he says that he's okay voting me even if I'm not bad because I'm dead weight. I don't get offended by things people say, but that stung a little.

DharmaHelper has freed himself of any responsibility voting for me. He doesn't care if I'm Kira. He just wants me gone. Anyway, if your rationale for voting me is that I'm "dead weight," then what is stopping you from voting Snowman? If I get lynched instead of him, then that means someone who really is not contributing gets another pass, and my game will be over. I think that sucks.

Had you actually voted for Russ (or anyone you said you were going to vote for) I would have felt differently about you. It would have been a shit vote, but you would have stuck to your guns, so I couldn't fault you for that.

And for the record, I'm OK with voting for you because I think you're bad. If I'm wrong, I won't be that torn up about it because you have contributed absolutely zero to the civ cause. If anything, you have served as a distraction, and a detriment. You have added absolutely nothing of value. All you're doing is complaining and splitting hairs about Yotsuba. Nobody cares. Get over it. If you are a civ, which is significantly unlikely, you should start acting like it.

That isn't what DharmaHelper said on Day 1, when, if I had voted for Russ, I would have been trying to keep my hands clean. His words. The problem with this attempt to dodge accountability is that it relies on the "we'll never know factor." If I had in fact voted Russ, would DharmaHelper have felt differently about me? I think the answer to that question is "No," but the world will never know.

I'm not going to argue with you DH. You're just looking for excuses so you don't have to take responsibility for not finding Kira. I get it.

I've added absolutely nothing of value. Got it. Thanks.

I take 100% responsibility for my vote. If only everyone were so inclined.

DharmaHelper does not know what "100%" means. If he were so big on sticking to his guns, why did he vote Snowman Day 2? Why is he flipping back to me now? Furthermore, there is a double standard implied here. While I take responsibility for my votes, DharmaHelper wants me to take responsibility for votes I didn't cast (like Russ).

I don't like seeing Epi mope around like a sick puppy. Best case scenario, this is an act designed by a baddie to illicit a reaction, that ended up going too far in the opposite direction.

If he is genuinely a civvie, I'm trying to light a fire under his ass so I can see that. But all I'm seeing is a disinterested, grumpy Epi. If he does genuinely think things are hopeless for him or for the civs, laying down and taking it is not the way I'd expect him to go about things.

I'm like a sick puppy.

Who do you guys think is going to get killed after the lynch?

Not a big deal.

@All - Again, I get that you might not see what I see in Snowman's post. I totally get that. But asking me to explain over and over again is not going to help you see what I see. You either trust me or you don't. You either think that Snowman is a detective that is helping to search for Kira or you don't. He's not posting because be knows I'm on to something and doesn't want to slip up and give me more ammo. You will see. That is the only assurance I can give. I know it's not hugely convincing, but that's what I've got.

I would be very interested to see the results of a Snowman Lynch.

Not enough to vote there again, apparently.

This is a question that comes up frequently in situations such as this and I want to ask Zomberella:

You seem perfectly content to reap the rewards if Snowman is bad. Would you shoulder the blame if Snowman is good?

This is anti-detective thinking, as I have mentioned elsewhere, because a bad guy could easily lead a lynch on another bad guy. What are the rewards that come from Snowman being bad for Zomberella? Why would Zomberella have to be blamed for making a case and trying to get someone lynched? Again, this goes back to that false dilemma mindset: Either there is a reward or there is blame in the Snowman lynch. It couldn't be that Zomberella is good but made her best case?

How do you kill a shinigami, Epi?

With the magic words: Notice me, senpai.

I don't speak Spanish.

Svs - he's done it too - but that Blaime can be spread far and wide amongst the what did you call it like day one "alpha male syndrome "?

Bullz was pretty reasonable in his point about mm's case being pate and post vote in an unchangeable vote game.

Dh's posts to Epi read very pot and kettle to me ATM. Between the two I'm reading Epi as more genuine.

Have I struck you as the sort to take my ball and go home?

DH - that was not what I was saying and you know it.

SVS was refering to epi's hair splitting - which yes - I think you, TH, Epi, llama and boo have all done in equal measure. You all have spent a decent amount of time hair splitting with each other and not finding Kira's - so from any of you - slamming Epi for not calling out Kira's as a reason why he's a Kira feels very pot/kettle to me.

Apart from the fact that I've brought a case on Zomberella out, actively discussed suspects, etc, I agree with you.

Dismissing bea's read of me and acting like he agrees with her.

I imagine this is what being high feels like.

I should hope not- it would not do any credit to the pro-marijuana lobby.

They're gonna bang.

Scientifically impossible.

[Epignosis]

That's 21 anti-detective items, 23 attempts to dodge accountability, 22 dismissive gestures, and 48 inconsistencies. I do not believe DharmaHelper is a detective.

Am I being helpful now?

[Marmot]

[boo]

nope

[Ricochet]

Fark.

[Tangrowth]

I'm pretty sure that might actually be longer than any case I've ever posted. Hard to say. :P

[Marmot]

Here are my basic thoughts on all eight options.

1) Normal Lynch - Likely to be easier for mafias and BTSCs to either manipulate or get information from. (For example, if L is lynched as a result of the +5 vote, that would kill L and expose the +5 guy to the mafia). Sure, this can be considered a "safe" option, but playing it safe isn't going to win the civvies the game. This is essentially a blank slate that is subject to vote manipulations and easy deductions, which in my view makes it one of the more dangerous options.

2) Secret Ballot Lynch - Obviously not even close to on the table. It removes too much information from the thread, allows mafia to blend in more, and cripples the civvie effort.

3) High Poster Influenced Lynch - Encourages activity, but far too easy for the mafia to take advantage (post a lot, and gain the benefit of driving discussion AND having heavily weighed votes)

4) Low Poster Influenced Lynch - Encourages *inactivity*, which is bullshit. The mafia could blend into the background and get rewarded for it, which I don't see as a good way to go about things.

5) Early Voter Influenced Lynch - AKA the Bandwagon option, early votes would count more, therefore people would be forced to limit their views and votes to the earliest of candidates for fear of not having their vote matter in the grand scheme. An easy work around would be something like in Grimms mafia when discussion was during the Night, but this still leaves a great deal of room for abuse and manipulation.

6) Late Voter Influenced Lynch - AKA the Team Save option. gives far too much power to anyone who votes late, such as a teammate waiting to save a mafia. This would make it incredibly difficult to actually lynch any mafia when we end up catching one.

7) L and Light Influenced Lynch - Removes a lot of the control/influence from the mafia in terms of going into a lynch with a battle plan, and gives the civvies some control as well, with L deciding who he trusts at any given time. In addition to providing insight into both L and Kiras mindsets, it allows the thread to deduce information from lynches, and provides the opportunity for clever gameplay. As I see it, this is the clear winner and best option.

8) Nihilistic Random Lynch - While it shares similarities with the L/Light lynch option in that in prevents the mafia from having a set "plan" in terms of how to go about a lynch, it also takes a lot of the control and information away from the civvies as well. There is nothing to deduce from "random lynches". It has little informational benefit.

The secret ballot lynch removes information from the thread, but this criticism is not applied to the L/Light option, which would do more than that- it would give a killer heavy influence over the lynches.

Just finished reading volume 1. Question for you Epi. At this point in the game, do you think that Light/Kira has a better feel for who his sympathizers are than L does for who any detectives are? Do you think your answer could have been anticipated on Day 1?

[Marmot]

EBWOP: On Day 0.

[Epignosis]

I'm going outside to play in the snow. I'll be back later.

[Marmot]

Why won't you answer my questions???

[Turnip Head]

I'm going outside to play in the snow. I'll be back later.

Yeah that's cool, we'll be here sorting through all this paperwork

[boo]

I'm going outside to play in the snow. I'll be back later.

Yeah that's cool, we'll be here sorting through all this paperwork

Not a case. Probably not meant to be read. Conclusion intentional and came first. Certainly meant to be indefensible. Cannot trust.

Last ditch attempt? Or unkillable? Epi = TH?

should still lynch llama

[Ricochet]

At least he's at the top of your list now, TH.

[Turnip Head]

Perhaps it is the novelty of having a game with more posts than Dr. Who, but I wonder why TH and MM continue to post and post and post and post even after they have voted. Is it an effort to make it difficult for detectives to read and catch up?

I believe this post is Hypocritical Hot Pink

[S~V~S]

I don't think that being leery of a group that has"????" as its' win condition is "fear mongering"; I think it's prudent

I'll read all of it tonight.

[DharmaHelper]

I'm gonna catch up now, but from the looks of things Epi finally had a psychotic break?

[DharmaHelper]

This is a question that comes up frequently in situations such as this and I want to ask Zomberella:

You seem perfectly content to reap the rewards if Snowman is bad. Would you shoulder the blame if Snowman is good?

How does one really shoulder the blame? Would you want to lynch her if he comes out good? That would only help if she's bad. Not so much if she isn't. In any case, I said I wish BWT was a Kira or at least a Kira supporter, and that I wish I could call that lynch a good one. I settled for a "no civvie" which was what we lynched the day before.

Accountability is accountability. Would it not reflect poorly on her civvieness if she lead a lynch on her civvie husband? One whom she confesses is a pyschologist and able to contribute towards finding not only baddies, but (if she herself is a baddie) spotting her tells and such?

[DharmaHelper]

I have to be honest, I think I know the gist of Epi's megapost before having read it all. Childish attempt to manipulate (what looks like) a majority of my posts to fit his warped ideals of what is "pro-detective". I'm not saying I won't read it all in fairness to the poor guy, but I'm not taking a lick of it seriously.

[zeek]

Woah I agree Epi's conclusion came first, but I can understand that because he probably set out to prove a point. DH has been one of his biggest critics. That said, I'm still on the fence with Epi. He's made some good points but it can also be read as the largest NO U in Mafia history. I'm glad he's playing ball a bit more though, even if he's not properly defending himself.

I don't know where it vote today. I'm curious about Zomberella and she could get my vote. Snowman and TH are also up there, with MM in the mix as well.

linki - DH, that's quite dismissive

[Turnip Head]

I'm glad he's playing ball a bit more though, even if he's not properly defending himself.

Yes but I think this touches on one of my concerns about Epi. He refused to acknowledge MM's case on him in any way, and instead focused on building this behemoth. Epi has been quite dismissive, himself.

[DharmaHelper]

Woah I agree Epi's conclusion came first, but I can understand that because he probably set out to prove a point. DH has been one of his biggest critics. That said, I'm still on the fence with Epi. He's made some good points but it can also be read as the largest NO U in Mafia history. I'm glad he's playing ball a bit more though, even if he's not properly defending himself.

I don't know where it vote today. I'm curious about Zomberella and she could get my vote. Snowman and TH are also up there, with MM in the mix as well.

linki - DH, that's quite dismissive

Yes you're correct. I am dismissing Epi's bullshit tantrum. Vote for me if you think that makes me suspect :P

[DharmaHelper]

For the sake of argument:

Both options lead to lynch manipulation, and that is inherently anti-detective.

A majority of the lynch options would have lead to lynch manipulation. That was the whole point. L/Light option would have tilted some of that manipulation into the civ's favor. Why am I still arguing this with you?

This option gives Light a say in whose vote counts and whose doesn't. That is anti-detective.

It does the same for L.

The secret ballot lynch removes information from the thread, but this criticism is not applied to the L/Light option, which would do more than that- it would give a killer heavy influence over the lynches.

Because L/Light *ADDS* information to the thread. It shows us what L and Light are thinking, who they trust, who they don't trust, etc.

It is never made clear how the L / Light option would give detectives the idea, and it acknowledges that Light could sway the lynches.

Since the L/Light option lost, and it would be pointless of me to keep this close to my chest any more, I was hoping to use the lynches to determine the identities of Lights Sympathizers, since they would be the most likely targets of his vote manipulation. From there, I was hoping to determine who Light was.

I'm sure if I power through the rest of Epi's rainbow trail I'll be making much the same comments.

[FZ.]

Epig, I actually read 90% of this. Sadly, I agreed with almost nothing. Maybe it's me, but I don't go and read all the details of the roles, but it doesn't make me a baddie, so I disagree with that. I can agree that he wasn't been too nice, but I can see his point when he's saying that he hoped that if you were a civ, it would make you wake up and do what needs to be done. I'm really trying to view this with an open mind.

I do want to ask you, you say you don't think he's a detective, but you keep saying that non Kiras are sort of potential civvies as well, so would you want to lynch him?

This is a question that comes up frequently in situations such as this and I want to ask Zomberella:

You seem perfectly content to reap the rewards if Snowman is bad. Would you shoulder the blame if Snowman is good?

How does one really shoulder the blame? Would you want to lynch her if he comes out good? That would only help if she's bad. Not so much if she isn't. In any case, I said I wish BWT was a Kira or at least a Kira supporter, and that I wish I could call that lynch a good one. I settled for a "no civvie" which was what we lynched the day before.

Accountability is accountability. Would it not reflect poorly on her civvieness if she lead a lynch on her civvie husband? One whom she confesses is a pyschologist and able to contribute towards finding not only baddies, but (if she herself is a baddie) spotting her tells and such?

you never, as a civ, lynched a civ, right? Did you feel bad? I hope you did. Does it make you a baddie? I wish it did, because then the civvies wouldn't lose so much. The thing is, unlike other lynches, she's asking us to trust her on this without really giving a solid reason we can all understand. It boils down to her gut, or her conniving skills. Which is it? I have no idea. At this point, I feel it's the former.

I'm going out. I'll be back for a few minutes later, and I'll decide on my vote then. I guess it's still between those two


linki: agree with Zeek and TH...and DH.

[Marmot]

The majority of your points I do not agree with Epi. A few I do though, which I will address.

Gonna take a page out of Epi's book *Warning: Big post*

Using the system we have now of 27 Players, and list randomizer from Random.org

L's list will have to have 13 People on it, as will Light's. Lets assume for the sake of argument, that L and Light both put themselves on their respective lists. Since all we know for sure is that Light has BTSC with Ryuk, lets assume he puts Ryuk on his list. I will use Blue for L and Red For Light:

Right now:

L's List:
L

Light/Kira's List:
Light
Ryuk

Completely Randomizing L's list, this is the first (Blind) option I got, after having put every role in a radomizer in the order they are on the front page:

Sidoh (Independant)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)
Penber (Civvie)
Mogi (Civvie)
Watari (Civie)
Higuchi (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Ide (Civvie)
Demegawa (Mafia 1)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Misora (Civvie)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
L(Civvie)

So, completely randomly, L's list Includes:
Civilians (Including L) 8
Mafia 1 (Light's Team) 2
Mafia 2 (Yotsuba) 3

I want to stress that this is completely randomly, and does not take into account anything other than cold numbers.

Light's List:
Sidoh (Indie)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Light (Mafia 1)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Ryuk (Mafia 1)
Yagami (Civvie)
Misora (Civvie)
Ooi (Mafia 2)
Near (Civvie)
Shimura (Mafia 2)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

Lights list includes:
Civilians - 4
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 3
Indies - 1


The following appear on both lists and therefore have a buffed vote:
Sidoh (Independent)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civ)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Misora (Civ)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

The following appear on neither list and therefore do not have a vote:
Aizawa (Civ)
Ukita (Civ)
Mello (Civ)
Namikawa (Mafia 2)
Kida (Mafia 2)
Amane (Mafia 1)
Rem (Mafia 1)
Takada (Mafia 1)

Total of:
Civilians - 3
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 2

Which means the votes that would count on this theoretical day:
Sidoh (Independant) - Buffed
Takahashi (Mafia 2) - 5 Buffed
Penber (Civvie) - Normal
Mogi (Civvie) - Normal
Watari (Civie)- Normal
Higuchi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Matsuda (Civvie) - Buffed
Ide (Civvie) - Normal
Demegawa (Mafia 1) - Normal
Mido (Mafia 2) - Buffed
Misora (Civvie) - Buffed
Mikami (Mafia 1) - Buffed
L(Civvie) - Normal
Light (Mafia 1) - Normal
Ryuk (Mafia 1) - Normal
Yagami (Civvie) - Normal
Ooi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Near (Civvie) - Normal
Shimura (Mafia 2) - Normal


For a Grand total of:
Civilian Votes: 9 total (2 Buffed 7 Normal)
Mafia 1 Votes: 4 total (1 Buffed 3 Normal)
Mafia 2 Votes: 5 total (1 Buffed 4 Normal)
Indie Votes: 1 total (1 Buffed)

19 of 27 players have a vote that is at least Normal. Rougly 70% of the active players. Of those, 47% are civ, 21% are on Lights team, and 26% are on the Yotsuba team. Civvies have the majority vote AND the majority of buffs. This is not as advantageous for Light as it initially seems.

Admittedly this is ONE scenario, and I'm sure there are variables I did not account for, but as you can hopefully see its not as one-sided as you'd think.

EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P

EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P

Meaning Lights list should have 13 not 12 (and Penber was the 13th Light pick)

So again, not as mafia-heavy as you'd think.

In contrast to my post, which came from a gamemaker's perspective, DharmaHelper opted to give ONE random example for the L / Light lynch option that was supposed to demonstrate that that option was good for civilians. It doesn't take a mathematician to note the flaws in this. I'm a gambler, so these flaws were apparent. One random example could show that I could make a fortune in a casino. However, that isn't sound long-range planning. Had DharmaHelper shown, say, 100 random examples, then a clearer picture could have been formed.

Actually, it did take a mathematician to note these flaws. I don't recall anyone else calling him out for this post aside from this person.

AceofSpaces - Not seeing him as bad atm
Bass_the_Clever - Not willing to vote for him right now, but not willing to give him a pass overall.
bea - Nothing stands out
birdwithteeth11 - Nothing stands out
Black Rock - Nothing stands out
boo - Not seeing him as bad.
Boomslang - Commenting mostly on other suspicions/discussions...
DharmaHelper - Definitely civ.
DisgruntledPorcupine - Who?
Elohcin - Nothing pops out.
Epignosis - Slowly creeping up my list.
FZ. - No read.
juliets - No read.
Long Con - No Read.
Made - No Read.
Matahari - Very good at playing low key and clueless when the reality is the opposite.
Metalmarsh89 - No read.
Ricochet - Leaning civ
Roxy - No read.
Russtifinko - No write.
S~V~S - I don't know yet.
Snowman - No read
Spacedaisy - Leaning civ
thellama73 - Who?
triceratopzeuhl - Suspect.
Turnip Head -
Zomberella12 - Found some of her early posts suspect. Not willing to give her a pass for playing the "I'm new here" card.


Epi can you explain to me why your suspicion of Russ is 100% based on the lore of Death Note, and you were ready to lynch Rico for making lore-based assumptions regarding L/Watari?

This is hyperbole, one of DH's most relied upon tactics. I hope you recognize it. I was never "ready to lynch" Ricochet. I engaged him during Day 0 and found better suspects on Day 1. There is nothing wrong with that. Another Mafia tactic is making people feel like they have to vote the way they are leaning at one point even if new information comes to light. This is inconsistent because DharmaHelper has expressed more than one suspect.

Yes. Your calling of this list (and TH's lists) as distracting are something I can agree upon.

Vote early and answer questions later.

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

Does trice always change his avatar this frequently?

What does this have to do with the game? Do baddies change avatars frequently?

X Kira must adhere to a strict, daily schedule.

Well that's all I wanted to know.

DharmaHelper had already voted. Now he turns everyone's attention back to Trice, a detective (for a lore-based reason). If you can keep your man from getting lynched, then you can avoid accountability. I said this on Day 0.

Thank you for bringing this one up.

I'm satisfied. What about you guys?

If it's such an obvious mechanic as Epi is making it sound like, when he's 7 episodes in, why did no one who has seen all of it not already mentioned it as a mechanic we should be worried about, and DH, who has seen it was still suspicious of Epi (at least before he gave the explanation). So either it's an elaborate set up by everyone who knows the theme to get Epi killed, or it's a minor thing and it's still weird Epi thinks it is so obvious it's a game mechanic and it's weird he just happened to bring it up before any non-baddie could know it was in the game with certainty.

In all fairness, I was aware of the Shinigami Eyes as they relate to the show and silently considered they could play a part in the game. I just felt like it would be more appropriate to wait until more information presented itself before I added my two cents.

If you are a detective with this knowledge, then why not come out with it sooner? Doesn't seem very civilian-friendly to me.

Covering his tracks.



Addendum. This read to me like the biggest no u I've ever seen. That is an overgeneralization, yes. You brought forth some good points (very good ones), but I found much of this case to be borderline insulting and exhaustively so. You nitpicked every single post DH has made from what I can see. Even anything productive DH had to offer produced a some backlash from you Epi. I will agree that DH has done much of the same throughout this game, so you aren't traveling a one-way street. I dunno how you can accuse him of being dismissive with a dismissive comment. But DH is guilty too. He gone poked the "Epi-bear" and here we are.

Another question. What are the odds, in your opinion, that DH is Kira?

[Matahari]

Woah I agree Epi's conclusion came first, but I can understand that because he probably set out to prove a point. DH has been one of his biggest critics. That said, I'm still on the fence with Epi. He's made some good points but it can also be read as the largest NO U in Mafia history. I'm glad he's playing ball a bit more though, even if he's not properly defending himself.

I don't know where it vote today. I'm curious about Zomberella and she could get my vote. Snowman and TH are also up there, with MM in the mix as well.

linki - DH, that's quite dismissive

Zeek, I'm curious about your thinking on Zombarella. I kind of think that the case she made on Snowman was the hallmark of a newbie who is very convinced that she is right. (mainly because I made 1 or 2 cases like that early on, until I got the hang of things). Do you see it as ingenuous (sp?), or are you doubtful that Snowman is bad, or what?

[DharmaHelper]

Epig, I actually read 90% of this. Sadly, I agreed with almost nothing. Maybe it's me, but I don't go and read all the details of the roles, but it doesn't make me a baddie, so I disagree with that. I can agree that he wasn't been too nice, but I can see his point when he's saying that he hoped that if you were a civ, it would make you wake up and do what needs to be done. I'm really trying to view this with an open mind.

I do want to ask you, you say you don't think he's a detective, but you keep saying that non Kiras are sort of potential civvies as well, so would you want to lynch him?

This is a question that comes up frequently in situations such as this and I want to ask Zomberella:

You seem perfectly content to reap the rewards if Snowman is bad. Would you shoulder the blame if Snowman is good?

How does one really shoulder the blame? Would you want to lynch her if he comes out good? That would only help if she's bad. Not so much if she isn't. In any case, I said I wish BWT was a Kira or at least a Kira supporter, and that I wish I could call that lynch a good one. I settled for a "no civvie" which was what we lynched the day before.

Accountability is accountability. Would it not reflect poorly on her civvieness if she lead a lynch on her civvie husband? One whom she confesses is a pyschologist and able to contribute towards finding not only baddies, but (if she herself is a baddie) spotting her tells and such?

you never, as a civ, lynched a civ, right? Did you feel bad? I hope you did. Does it make you a baddie? I wish it did, because then the civvies wouldn't lose so much. The thing is, unlike other lynches, she's asking us to trust her on this without really giving a solid reason we can all understand. It boils down to her gut, or her conniving skills. Which is it? I have no idea. At this point, I feel it's the former.

I'm going out. I'll be back for a few minutes later, and I'll decide on my vote then. I guess it's still between those two


linki: agree with Zeek and TH...and DH.

Lemme back up because I think you're misunderstanding me. Whether or not Snow flips civ has no bearing on whether or not I think Zomberella is a civ. You're right, civs lynch civs all the time. I've done so. What I'm saying is that Zomberella's certainty is a two way street. On the one hand, she expects a ticker tape parade if Snow is a mafia. But If Snow is civ, it SHOULD be taken into account that Zomberella pushed so hard to lynch someone who could possibily identify her baddie game.

Is it the nail in the coffin, no. Is it possible evidence? Yes.

[bea]

I'm going outside to play in the snow. I'll be back later.[/quote
Yeah that's cool, we'll be here sorting through all this paperwork

I think you may need tomake a special catahory of casemaking for. Wow!

[zeek]

Another question. What are the odds, in your opinion, that DH is Kira?

This is where I'm struggling with both of them. I don't see either of them butting heads so radically if either was Kira. We can talk about egos, but they're clever enough to avoid this sort of thing if either is Kira.

My worry with Zomb is how convinced she is she's right. I feel it could be a move to lynch Snowman incase HE is onto her. If he flips civ, she could just play the noob card.

linki what DH said

[zeek]

Forgot to reply to this due to EPIc posts.

My problem with Epi right now is that MM's case was good. It showed how inconsistent he has been and his responses have done little to convince me he's good. His tone, deflated and dejected, has however. So I'm back and forth on him.

Then we have Snowman. His responses don't seem genuine to me and he doesn't actually seem frustrated by all this, half-heartedly NO U'ing his detractors.

Still a fair amount of time before the lynch ends but, honestly, these guys may be aligned with Kira but I really doubt either is one.

If not them, who?

I don't know, I feel the Kira would be playing a very simple game not really drawing attention to themselves, so they could be hiding in half the players in the game. Based on aggressive and odd behaviour, I'd tentatively cross off a handful of players from the Kira list.

[DharmaHelper]

Alright I honestly tried to read Epi's posts but every single point he's made is just pouting, nit-picking, opinionated, manipulative crap and I'd get tired of saying "No this is wrong, and you know this is wrong" or "No that is not what I said and you know that is not what I said."

I made it about 1 and a quarter way through before I realized I was making myself angry.

[S~V~S]

Another question. What are the odds, in your opinion, that DH is Kira?

This is where I'm struggling with both of them. I don't see either of them butting heads so radically if either was Kira. We can talk about egos, but they're clever enough to avoid this sort of thing if either is Kira.

My worry with Zomb is how convinced she is she's right. I feel it could be a move to lynch Snowman incase HE is onto her. If he flips civ, she could just play the noob card.

linki what DH said

He did not act like he was "on to her" until after she came out hard against him.

[zeek]

He did not act like he was "on to her" until after she came out hard against him.

Right, I mean a pre-emptive lynch before he realised. I don't know what couples do when they play together and one is bad or whatever. I presume it's not easy to conceal that.

It's purely speculative, but that's worry there.

[Turnip Head]

Alright I honestly tried to read Epi's posts but every single point he's made is just pouting, nit-picking, opinionated, manipulative crap and I'd get tired of saying "No this is wrong, and you know this is wrong" or "No that is not what I said and you know that is not what I said."

I made it about 1 and a quarter way through before I realized I was making myself angry.

I don't think anyone will blame you for not answering Epi's case point-by-point, DH. It would likely take you days to accomplish such a task.

[DharmaHelper]

I fucking knew I should have stayed retired. At least I don't have to worry about coming back to vote. See you guys after the lynch.

[Marmot]

Another question. What are the odds, in your opinion, that DH is Kira?

This is where I'm struggling with both of them. I don't see either of them butting heads so radically if either was Kira. We can talk about egos, but they're clever enough to avoid this sort of thing if either is Kira.

My worry with Zomb is how convinced she is she's right. I feel it could be a move to lynch Snowman incase HE is onto her. If he flips civ, she could just play the noob card.

linki what DH said

He did not act like he was "on to her" until after she came out hard against him.

Yup. In fact, Snowman called Zomba a straightshooter on Day 2 (implying civvieness), after which Zomba went apeshit on him.

@zeek. If DH and Epi were both detectives, do you still think they would continue butting heads with such ferocity trying to get the other lynched?

[Tangrowth]

Day 3: Tilde No More

S~V~S had been engaging in intense discussion when suddenly she felt her left arm go numb.

S~V~S: (reflection) Oh god. Oh no. This can't be.

She started screaming in a panic.

S~V~S: TURNIP HEAD IS KIRA!! HE'S THE ONE KILLING ME! AVENGE ME!!! PLEA---

At that moment, S~V~S collapsed to the ground, dying of a heart attack.

BEA: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
EPIGNOSIS: ...How is this possible?

Many of the players angrily stared at Turnip Head.

TURNIP HEAD: I'm not Kira! I swear!

The anger temporarily subsided, as S~V~S's death sunk in. The players mourned over the loss of their Tilde Queen.


S~V~S has been killed by Kira.

It is still Day 3.

You still have 5.25 hours to find and lynch Kira.

[Zombarella]

Forgot to reply to this due to EPIc posts.

My problem with Epi right now is that MM's case was good. It showed how inconsistent he has been and his responses have done little to convince me he's good. His tone, deflated and dejected, has however. So I'm back and forth on him.

Then we have Snowman. His responses don't seem genuine to me and he doesn't actually seem frustrated by all this, half-heartedly NO U'ing his detractors.

Still a fair amount of time before the lynch ends but, honestly, these guys may be aligned with Kira but I really doubt either is one.

If not them, who?

I don't know, I feel the Kira would be playing a very simple game not really drawing attention to themselves, so they could be hiding in half the players in the game. Based on aggressive and odd behaviour, I'd tentatively cross off a handful of players from the Kira list.

So by your own logic I can't be Kira because I'm not playing it safe. Also, you might have missed it, but I tore up my noob boob card. I can't play it. It's gone.

[Ricochet]

RIP SVS

[Turnip Head]

Oh what the hell

Rest in peace SVS

Not good

[DharmaHelper]

RIP SVS

@MP if someone votes before they are killed does their vote count?

Now I'm gone for real.

[Zombarella]

Oh no! SVS! Nooooooo!

[Tangrowth]

RIP SVS

@MP if someone votes before they are killed does their vote count?

Now I'm gone for real.

Good question!

Yes, a vote cast will still count, regardless of whether that person dies later in the day period.

[Marmot]

RIP SVS. This game us nuckin futs.

Linki: Oh hey, a good reason to vote early.

[bea]

rip svs.

[S~V~S]

congrats Kira, you asshole. You actually made me cry.

[Zombarella]

RIP SVS

@MP if someone votes before they are killed does their vote count?

Now I'm gone for real.

Good question!

Yes, a vote cast will still count, regardless of whether that person dies later in the day period.

Dang it! I think SVS was with me on this.

[Turnip Head]

Someone is killing off experienced players.

[Marmot]

Someone is killing off experienced players.

[Zombarella]

Someone is killing off experienced players.

I wish we knew if the Kira has to be on the site to send in a kill. If so, I'm looking at Zeek.

[Turnip Head]

Someone is killing off experienced players.

I wish we knew if the Kira has to be on the site to send in a kill. If so, I'm looking at Zeek.

I don't think that is the case. If anything, I think this proves that Kira can send in his kills early, and they occur at predetermined times.