The Flash: Battle for the Gem Cities (Day 12)

[Tangrowth]

DO NOT TRUST LIST:
1. FZ.
2. Turnip Head
3. Long Con
4. Other non-participating bastards

Lynch them please.

[Tangrowth]

DO NOT TRUST LIST:
1. FZ.
2. Turnip Head
3. Long Con
4. Other non-participating bastards

Lynch them please.

Actually, I lied. Lynch ALL of the players. Every single one. Except for Llama, since he's The Flash and shit.

[Turnip Head]

I feel like I've conveyed my point of view as best as I can. If you're not seeing what I'm saying about your behavior, MP, I can't help you out. Your actions have done nothing but try and cause division where it wasn't necessary. You are clearly okay working with the New Rogues, or you're one of them yourself.

[Turnip Head]

Tell me how that doesn't make you "untrustworthy".

[Tangrowth]

Are you serious? I'm more transparent than all of the rest of you, tiptoeing around the true nature of this game and acting as though you're so super civilian-friendly.

Guess what? Civilians don't exist.

[Tangrowth]

I work for one man: The Almighty Sock.

[Tangrowth]

LMS, more like LSS. Last Sock Standing, bitch.

Or, in this case, Lynch (the) Motherfucking Sock.

[Tangrowth]

Yes, I have lost my sanity, for anyone wondering. Just keep voting for me!

I'm just having fun at this point.

See you folks at the great reveal of my baddieness!

[Turnip Head]

LMS, more like LSS. Last Sock Standing, bitch.

Or, in this case, Lynch (the) Motherfucking Sock.

Lol. I love you man.

[Tangrowth]

I love you too man. Haha. All of you guys. You all have been great. I wanted to have fun this game and I certainly have accomplished that. Hope you've enjoyed it too.

[FZ.]

MP, are you drunk? What the heck is this?

[FZ.]

I was about to unvote after reading the previous page, and then MP lost it. Is he admitting to being bad?

[Turnip Head]

I was about to unvote after reading the previous page, and then MP lost it. Is he admitting to being bad?

I don't think so... where are you seeing that?

[Black Rock]

So if you guys are not thinking of this as a LMS game, your votes for me must mean you think I'm a New Rogue? You think I torpedoed my own teammate in Bass 1.0?

Nice trick, MP. Make the whole day about you, then pull the pity card and look at the lynch result. Bravo.

No I think you didn't know he was your teammate because you hadn't gained BTSC. You keep using that as an argument this game but it is void.

[FZ.]

I was about to unvote after reading the previous page, and then MP lost it. Is he admitting to being bad?

I don't think so... where are you seeing that?

The part where we're going to see the baddiness and the part where he said he planned to have fun this game, and he has. If he wasn't bad, would he say he had fun when everyone is jumping on him for his proposals?

[FZ.]

So if you guys are not thinking of this as a LMS game, your votes for me must mean you think I'm a New Rogue? You think I torpedoed my own teammate in Bass 1.0?

Nice trick, MP. Make the whole day about you, then pull the pity card and look at the lynch result. Bravo.

No I think you didn't know he was your teammate because you hadn't gained BTSC. You keep using that as an argument this game but it is void.

But he gave a really good reason why Bass could be bad. One that people were likely to follow, and he probably believe himself. Thus, he brought down his potential buddy

[Marmot]

Are you serious? I'm more transparent than all of the rest of you, tiptoeing around the true nature of this game and acting as though you're so super civilian-friendly.

Guess what? Civilians don't exist.

Well since you know llama is not in fact a civilian, why don't you vote for him?

[Marmot]

Any thoughts that MP might be mind-controlled right now?

[S~V~S]

I was about to unvote after reading the previous page, and then MP lost it. Is he admitting to being bad?

I don't think so... where are you seeing that?

The part where we're going to see the baddiness and the part where he said he planned to have fun this game, and he has. If he wasn't bad, would he say he had fun when everyone is jumping on him for his proposals?

No guts, no glory. MP has never been a shrinking violet

Linki, well technically he is right. If the civviest faction is defeated, the game doesn't end, does it? It is possible,I guess,but he seemed sincerely perplexed when people didn't take his point.

[Turnip Head]

Any thoughts that MP might be mind-controlled right now?

We discussed it and he vehemently denied it. Though I guess he'd have to do that today, if it were true... but he's pushing it pretty hard.

[FZ.]

Don't worry about it, Devin. I sunk the time into this game and expressed thoughts that I knew challenged the convention of this game. I don't want you defending me because I'm poison at this point. I only want people defending me if they honestly believe a lynch of me makes no sense, but even then it's obvious that I'm poison.

People contest that this game has LMS elements, but just LOOK at how every lynch has gone down, including this one. Is this the mindset of a civilian majority game? No.

I am super swamped RL right now, so not having this game on my mafia stress plate would be a relief to me, after I get over the initial sadness of having died. Hence my wishywashiness on whether I actually want to die. Consequently, I pulled a gambit. You know how much easier it is to pull gambits when they are based in feelings and thoughts that you have genuinely felt? Much more easily.

I'm not changing my vote to timmer because I stand by my assessment that FZ. is least trustworthy based on how Day 5 has progressed. I also do not think timmer deserves to die just because he is the alternative to voting me. I think people jumping onto him for that reason are equally suspect in their motives. timmer should be evaluated on his actions and his actions ALONE.

I honestly don't really care who wins this game, but I hope that this lynch period has been illuminating to all of you, because that's what I truly intended with all of this.

I just ask that you please note the following after my death:

1) I never called Llama suspicious. I am stating TRUTHS. Doesn't matter what Llama says about hunting New Rogues exclusively, even if he has that intention. Detectives can jail Old Rogues too. It clearly says it. Don't ever just trust someone, even if their role is confirmed, if their win condition leaves any opportunity open for betrayal. I've been burned by it way too many times.

2) MR specifically designed this game to NOT be a civ v. baddie affair, considering he even says "the closest to civilian" as the game is going to get with the Old Rogues. Whether or not you wanted to play this type of game or whether you think his game is balanced is irrelevant. There is no such thing as civilians and baddies this game. Yes, the New Rogues are basically a mafia team since they're hostile to everyone else except the Independent Rogues, but that doesn't mean that hunting for people based on traditional tells will actually help net them, especially since they outnumber EVERY OTHER FACTION. Stop deluding yourselves.

3) Independent Rogues only want to survive. And there are 6 of them.

4) FZ. said that she thought I looked "bad" based on my insistence and that I didn't offer up alternatives, yet I clearly came up with two off the top of my head, and she failed to address them completely. I even stated multiple times that I'm not insulting any of you, but she OMGUS'd me saying that if I didn't want to play with a bunch of illogical people that I should never have replaced in.

5) Both S~V~S and timmer have claimed "civilian" roles. Remember that. Although they seem alright by me, I caution that you be wary of anyone who tries to claim such a thing. Also be wary of players trying too hard to act as though they are neutral yet their intentions indicate a contradiction. Hopefully that will help you determine those people who are lying.

I'm not bitter if I die. C'est la vie. I honestly asked for it.

I only hope that whatever faction can best take advantage of the information gained from these lynches be crowned the winner.

I don't even know how to respond to this post. You're all over the place. Basically, you don't trust anyone. You want to vote for anyone that wants to vote you. If we're playing LMS like you call it, then why not lynch you? We should just lynch are ass off and form alignments with whoever is willing to take them. Well, you might be the weakest link. Goodbye.

I'm kidding of course, but for the life of me, I have no idea what you're rambling about. I'm glad you had fun, because mine kind of decreased. Even if it wasn't intentional, you bombarded the thread saying how we were all acting illogical and what a bunch of hypocrites we are. Excuse me for not enjoying it. Not personally, but game wise.

[FZ.]

edit: lynch our ass off and form a

[Marmot]

Any thoughts that MP might be mind-controlled right now?

We discussed it and he vehemently denied it. Though I guess he'd have to do that today, if it were true... but he's pushing it pretty hard.

Well he kinda has to push his ideas to some extent to doesn't he? That's part of being cursed/mind-controlled.

But the self-vote gives me pause, I believe rabbit was forced to vote a particular way, as was I. Would MP be forced to self-vote?

[Long Con]

I have been reading your posts, LC, and clearly acknowledged them when I addressed that I haven't been mind controlled. I don't know why you think that and I don't know why you think Old Rogues and Independent Rogues are "essentially the same". They are not.

Actually, you DO know why I think Old Rogues and Indy Rogues are essentially the same, because you read my post.

It doesn't compute though.

You're assuming Independent Rogues not only have the incentive to accomplish the same win condition as the Old Rogues but that they have the means to do so.

Facts:
1) Independent Rogues do not know who Old Rogues and New Rogues are.
2) New Rogues outnumber Old Rogues by 1 and Independent Rogues = Old Rogues in number.

If your win condition was survive until the end, what incentives or means do you have to help the Old Rogues win the game? None.

You're neglecting the fact that the Indy Rogues want to end the game. As quickly as possible. They have two basic routes to choose: Eliminate the New Rogues and Grodd, or eliminate all the factions that oppose the New Rogues, whoever they might be.

PLUS, the Indy Rogues know who Llama is, which gives them an anchor of sorts in following the Old Rogue/Detective Win Condition.

Your view on the way this game works is illogical, and I don't see how it helps anyone achieve their win condition. I don't even understand how you are picturing playing this out going forward, if we decide to forget the concept of Civvie and baddie.

The MAJORITY is not the incentive that Indy players have to side with the Civs. The incentive is to be able to publicly work with a good group to eliminate an evil group. The alternative is to act baddie, and that only increases the chance that you'll be lynched as the game moves along. It applies to this game the same as most others.

No, they don't, they just want to survive until endgame. You're assuming that an Independent Rogue thinks ending the game = surviving until endgame, but that doesn't help if the game can't possibly end until at least N9 and the Independent Rogue gets NKed now, does it?

Ending the game DOES equal surviving until endgame for the Indys. I'm not assuming that, that IS their win condition. If an Indy gets nightkilled, before, after, or during night 9, their game will end... no one is arguing that, and I don't see the point in saying it. Getting Nightkilled ends your game, in this game, in LMS games, in every game.

But the Old Rogue win condition doesn't even align with the Detectives! Who's to keep Llama or someone else from jailing Old Rogues? Doesn't matter to them. Less preference than New Rogues? Sure. But does it matter? No.

The Detectives could kill everyone else in the game before taking out the last New Rogue and winning. But obviously their goal will be to not take out anyone BUT New Rogues and Arch-Villains. You are just plain wrong when you say it doesn't matter to them.

Are you kidding?

Of course, it's the majority that incentivices a neutral independent to side with the civilians. If you craft a game with 31 players, 15 civilians and 15 mafia and 1 neutral independent, and the mafia have not BTSC but each faction has a kill (I know this is an unrealistic example, but roll with me), how do you think the independent would play? Entirely with the civilians because he's playing "with a good group"? Come on.

NO ONE "acts baddie", that's absurd.

In a game like your example, you would be right. Hands down. It actually helps to see why you are so adamant - you are viewing the world in a black and white kind of way. Like in your example.

The thing is, there are a number of factors that ARE in play that make it not so black-and-white, these things DO factor into how the Indy Rogue is likely to play, and they factor in to how we decide the social meta of baddie hunting.

The main factor is that the Detectives and the Old Rogues' win conditions are totally aligned, with the caveat that the Detectives don't have to take out Grodd. That extreme similarity of win cons makes the Detectives basically part of the Old Rogues team. They both have the same goals. That is a fact. It is also my OPINION that the Detectives would be happy to kill or lynch Grodd just because he's dangerous and could kill one of them.

Another factor is Magenta, she is an Indy Rogue that can gain BTSC with the Detectives, surely you can see how that particular Indy would be interested in trying to achieve a win by eliminating the New Rogues.

Another factor linking the Old Rogues and the Indy Rogues is Rainbow Raider: He targets a player each night to fire a beam of colored light at. If the beam hits an Old or Independent Rogue whose signature color matches the beam, the two will gain BTSC for a day. If these conditions are not met, the targeted player ~a~~~~ ~~s~ ~~ ~~~~~ for a day. I haven't solved part of it yet, but you can see how making Old Rogue and Indy Rogue connections would be mutually beneficial. There doesn't seem to be a similar linking system for the Raider to hook up with the New Rogues.

I hope that I have helped you see my point of view on why the Indy Rogues are, by game design, more likely to side with the Old Rogues if possible. There is also a level of "I don't care who wins as long as I survive" that's going to be a large part of the Indy decision making, but I still believe that there's plenty of incentive for them to "support the Civvie cause".

In closing, I also think that the public's perception of an Indy player matters very much to that Indy. It's a big factor to be seen being a part of killing the baddies for an Indy, so making a true effort to baddie hunt as a Civvie-supportive Indy is an important part of getting to that Indy win. It is decidedly less of a factor in this particular game, given that the baddies don't start with BTSC, but that's a big part of how I see Neutral Indy strategy in any game, including the 31-player game you put forth.

And yeah, Timmer: you can't really ask for Civvie cred for lynching Bass. It's unlikely that a BTSC-connected New Rogue would go after their teammate like you went after Bass, but you could easily be a New Rogue that had hoped Bass was not a teammate, who got disappointed.

>>> So much to catch up on, I just had to respond to MP first on this.

[Turnip Head]

Any thoughts that MP might be mind-controlled right now?

We discussed it and he vehemently denied it. Though I guess he'd have to do that today, if it were true... but he's pushing it pretty hard.

Well he kinda has to push his ideas to some extent to doesn't he? That's part of being cursed/mind-controlled.

But the self-vote gives me pause, I believe rabbit was forced to vote a particular way, as was I. Would MP be forced to self-vote?

I would feel more comfortable waiting until tomorrow so MP can debrief us on whether or not he's been mind controlled, but I'm not sure where else to turn my vote towards. I don't want to lynch Timmer, he seems okay to me. And I maintain that at least one of the recent replacements is a newly minted killer. But I haven't heard enough from DREAM and Devin seems like he's on the level so far. MP is definitely the sketchiest of the bunch, but at the same time I don't see him willingly playing like this if he has a killing role.

[Tangrowth]

I am NOT mind controlled and I am not drunk (though that made me laugh). These are all genuine thoughts. FZ., I'm really sorry I made the game less fun for you and all of this is exactly why I started saying last night that if no one agreed with me that you should all just vote me out, but I don't regret it because I'm calling a spade a spade. There is no civilian faction in this game, and the closest one that even exists, only starts with 6 max, and some of them have already died. I figured we are at the point in the game now where the Old Rogues have very likely already lost and I didn't see a point in beating around the bush and acting like "Look how civilian I am!" It's boring.

LC, you make a lot of really good points. I'm sorry I got particularly heated. I realize this game isn't black and white completely, and also realize that many win conditions have the potential to align, but just because they have the potential to align doesn't mean they will. The problem comes in the increasingly LMS nature of the game, assuming random numbers of various factions are killed, because at some point players will resort to anything possible to ensure their own survival and their own win condition. Such is the nature of a faction game. The only way that wouldn't work is if every single one of the New Rogues (7) and hostile Arch-Villains (3) were eliminated completely super early on in the game. Since that hardly seems to have had happened, I firmly believe that the game has progressed to a stage already where a very communal win is out of the question. I admire your faith that it is possible, but I can't see it happening. The end of this game will very likely end in an LMS-style fashion, even if not completely LMS. That's what I've been trying to convey.

That said, I want to die. I've already blown my hand, there's no way I'm making it past either this or next lynch. I was incredibly honest in my approach, but I realize I was also combative and blunt. It backfired. It's OK. I realized I was taking a risk in coming out so strongly with my assertive statements at how unconventional this game is, even at times exaggerating. But I really wanted to shake the game up and make people realize that the game's setup has already made it near impossible for Old Rogues to win under a traditional-style baddie hunting model, let alone with all of the mislynches that have occurred and approaches that people have taken so far in this game.

Just let me die already. Move your vote back, MM.

[Tangrowth]

In the end, everyone will do what they can to win the game. Occam's razor suggests, especially with the way the game has progressed, that the win conditions will not align at endgame.

[FZ.]

Any thoughts that MP might be mind-controlled right now?

We discussed it and he vehemently denied it. Though I guess he'd have to do that today, if it were true... but he's pushing it pretty hard.

Well he kinda has to push his ideas to some extent to doesn't he? That's part of being cursed/mind-controlled.

But the self-vote gives me pause, I believe rabbit was forced to vote a particular way, as was I. Would MP be forced to self-vote?

I would feel more comfortable waiting until tomorrow so MP can debrief us on whether or not he's been mind controlled, but I'm not sure where else to turn my vote towards. I don't want to lynch Timmer, he seems okay to me. And I maintain that at least one of the recent replacements is a newly minted killer. But I haven't heard enough from DREAM and Devin seems like he's on the level so far. MP is definitely the sketchiest of the bunch, but at the same time I don't see him willingly playing like this if he has a killing role.

I agree with everything, and I guess I can agree on the last sentence as well. Maybe, LOL.

Why are we giving Dream a free pass?


linki: MP, seriously, if you're not an old rogue, can you please drop the LMS talk and all that, and look at who you don't trust based on what happened before this whole conversation started?

[Tangrowth]

timmer doesn't deserve to get lynched right now just because he's the "alternative" to me. He could be any alignment for all I know, but I don't see why he should be lynched over practically most everyone else right now. Hence, I need to die.

Apparently, I failed spectacularly at my win condition. I've accepted my fate. It's OK.

FZ., just ignore me then. I clearly said I don't trust you at all. And keep denying it. Repeat after me. "Civilians exist. Civilians exist..."

[Long Con]

LC, I am not trying to make you mad or insult you or anyone else. You're one of the greatest mafia players I've ever seen. But clearly we aren't approaching this game with the same mindset and I don't think we ever will. All that this discussion has told me is that you're very likely NOT an Independent Rogue or that if you are that you're lying to keep up a "friendly" front.

I'm really not trying to reveal my alignment through this argument, but you're free to use your detective skills to use it to figure out whatever you can about me. And don't worry, I'm not getting mad or feeling insulted. This kind of argument actually elevates the Mafia experience for me very much, so you are making me happy. Frustrated with your stubborn point of view, but IT IS ALL GOOD!

To clarify, I'm not arguing to say "let's all play like baddies lol", I'm saying it makes no sense to analyze and categorize behavior as "civ" and "bad" using traditional baddie hunting because that's not going to get the Old Rogues a win in this game. It's practically impossible from even a random statistical standpoint.

This is a good point, but you take it too far. As the game goes on, it becomes more likely that the New Rogues have become a more traditional baddie BTSC team, so the game becomes less LMS as it goes, not more. From the start there are a number of traditional baddie hunting techniques that make no sense, like looking at voting patterns to see who tried to "save" their baddie teammate, or some other accusation that implied baddie-BTSC connection.

However, we did find Bass on behavioural accusations. Those baddie hunting techniques have already proven to be successful, 'cause we lynched a baddie with them. This is not a black-and-white world, gut, intuition, and detective work all factor in.

[FZ.]

timmer doesn't deserve to get lynched right now just because he's the "alternative" to me. He could be any alignment for all I know, but I don't see why he should be lynched over practically most everyone else right now. Hence, I need to die.

Apparently, I failed spectacularly at my win condition. I've accepted my fate. It's OK.

FZ., just ignore me then. I clearly said I don't trust you at all. And keep denying it. Repeat after me. "Civilians exist. Civilians exist..."

Stop it, come on
Let's say you're right, but I'm still an old rouge, what do you expect me to do other than what I am already. That's what I still don't understand. My only option at winning is if I find all the new rouges and eliminate them.
Say I'm a new Rogue, my only chance at winning is if I find the old rogues and the detectives and kill them.
I've never played a Last man standing game, so I have no idea how I'm supposed to convince others to lynch everyone else but me.

[Tangrowth]

LC, that's assuming that New Rogues establish BTSC. I firmly believe they can only do so via the map, otherwise would be OP. But fair enough.

And stubborn is my middle name. :P

[Long Con]

I think, if LC thinks MP is a New Rogue, I can vote for MP. He's tilting anyway, and causing the day to be about him. I can't see any way that he is an Old Rogue or a Detective, so it's safe and he's frankly calling for it. Rabbit has also asked to be lynched, but I get more of an indy vibe from him. I could vote him, but MP seems to be making Rabbit and people like that secondary.

I appreciate the confidence, but it's misplaced. As I already said to S~V~S, I was just saying they're "definitely New Rogues" in order to get their attention. I still feel like S~V~S didn't read my post to her (which I spent quite a bit of time on), because all she said was that it was "wrong". As for MP, I'm glad debate on this is continuing, but you really shouldn't base your vote on my opinion in any case, because I'm not really convinced he's a New Rogue. I am surprised to see the bandwagon, I'm still trying to reach common ground with him on the whole debate.

Linki: Blacksmith, of the New Rogues, searches each night to find and gain BTSC with her teammates!

[Tangrowth]

timmer doesn't deserve to get lynched right now just because he's the "alternative" to me. He could be any alignment for all I know, but I don't see why he should be lynched over practically most everyone else right now. Hence, I need to die.

Apparently, I failed spectacularly at my win condition. I've accepted my fate. It's OK.

FZ., just ignore me then. I clearly said I don't trust you at all. And keep denying it. Repeat after me. "Civilians exist. Civilians exist..."

Stop it, come on
Let's say you're right, but I'm still an old rouge, what do you expect me to do other than what I am already. That's what I still don't understand. My only option at winning is if I find all the new rouges and eliminate them.
Say I'm a new Rogue, my only chance at winning is if I find the old rogues and the detectives and kill them.
I've never played a Last man standing game, so I have no idea how I'm supposed to convince others to lynch everyone else but me.

1. You're very likely not an Old Rogue.

2. If you are an Old Rogue, I wouldn't blatantly advertise that fact, since you will be promptly eliminated.

3. I don't expect anything from you; you can play the game how you want. I just don't understand why we are all still beating around the bush with this civilian nonsense which such a designation clearly isn't relevant.

4. What you describe of the New Rogue win condition is definitely a faction win condition. Each faction has a specific objective they must fulfill. It's more complex than "civilians must eliminate mafia" and "mafia must eliminate civilians" because no faction has majority.

5. Convince others to lynch you by acting the EXACT OPPOSITE of me. But seriously, it seems as though a surefire way to avoid lynching in this game is to convince others that you are not a threat to them OR that you are a (potential) powerful ally OR both (preferably both). We are all currently hunting under the guise of civilians and mafia, but at endgame, you better bet that the players who have the better alliance or aligned win conditions will lynch the weakest link.

[Tangrowth]

Linki: Blacksmith, of the New Rogues, searches each night to find and gain BTSC with her teammates!

Ah, yes, fair enough.

[Long Con]

Who's up for an MP lynch?

I am.

1. He's giving the impression there are no baddies, when the New Rogues clearly are. That is suspicious.
2. He's yelling at everyone for not seeing the game his way, which is unproductive.
3. He's contradicting himself like crazy.
4. He kind of seems to want out anyway.
5. He's trying to subtly paint the Detectives as untrustworthy, which we are clearly not.
6. MP is always bad in every game.

All this adds up to a good lynch.

LOL yeah, I guess you got The Detectives a bit riled up by saying they don't care. I'm just quoting as I'm catching up here, this made me laugh.

DO you really want out MP? Is number 4 true?

[Tangrowth]

Frankly, the only player I would consider switching my vote to is Soneji, and only if I'm 100% sure that timmer and I would not be lynched. I'm done with so-called baddie hunting. I want to eliminate people who don't deserve to win, of which I am one.

[Tangrowth]

DO you really want out MP? Is number 4 true?

Yes and no.

I really want out because:

1) I'm severely procrastinating hours upon hours of coding. I started my SAS two-week crash course today and honestly my life is about to get even busier than it has been already. I also have a wedding happening in less than 3 months. I frankly shouldn't be playing ANY mafia, let alone multiple games. But my addiction and MR's desperate need for a replacement got the better of me.

2) I'm pretty fucked in terms of my win condition, I really can't see winning at this point, nor do I think I probably deserve it. Any time I sink into the game will be diminishing marginal utility and wasted opportunity cost that I could have sunk into more productive endeavors (see 1).

However, I really don't want out because I love this game.

[Long Con]

I am just becoming increasingly convinced that people at The Syndicate don't truly understand how neutral independents work. I saw it in full form in Death Note and I'm seeing it again here.

Unfortunately, I was unable to participate in Death Note which makes me sad because it's by far my favorite anime series.
But rest assured, MP, you're not alone in this thinking. When I first joined up in this game, I too mentioned how blurred the lines between "civ" and "baddie" seemed. With the obvious exception being New Rogues who want everyone dead except for Indy Rogues. The rest of the win conditions are more pin-pointed to one+ factions.
So that being said, I will not be voting for you as I don't think you're bad, yet. I just think you are very misunderstood, and I'm tempted to look at those being really hard on you for this... LC and MM

I think I made some good points about why it's not entirely non-traditional, and that seeing the New Rogues as the baddies is beneficial to the majority of players. Why the though - do you think I'm saying these things because I'm a New Rogue, and I think this will help me win? Why is my point of view on this suspicious to you?

Linki: OK MP... I will consider putting a vote on you.

[Tangrowth]

I also don't want to make this game NOT fun or less fun for everyone else. Hence, if the majority of players in this game are lynching and suspecting based on a totally different understanding than I am, and I am impeding those players' fun by going on about my nonsense, then due to reason 1) above, I don't see why I should continue playing.

But I'm a SEVERE mafia addict, so I always incredibly resist lynching myself, especially when it so insanely directly contradicts my win condition.

[Long Con]

Either way, thanks for hosting, MR. I am glad I got to play after all, if I do die now. I really need to listen to my self-discipline portion of my brain instead of the masochistic portion, so I'll just check in later after I KNOW the result is over to see if I've died.

I'm voting FZ. I trust her the least right now by far.

I also don't trust LC.

[Tangrowth]

Either way, thanks for hosting, MR. I am glad I got to play after all, if I do die now. I really need to listen to my self-discipline portion of my brain instead of the masochistic portion, so I'll just check in later after I KNOW the result is over to see if I've died.

I'm voting FZ. I trust her the least right now by far.

I also don't trust LC.

I don't really trust anyone, it's okay. :P

Must. Leave. Mafia.

[Long Con]

I also don't want to make this game NOT fun or less fun for everyone else. Hence, if the majority of players in this game are lynching and suspecting based on a totally different understanding than I am, and I am impeding those players' fun by going on about my nonsense, then due to reason 1) above, I don't see why I should continue playing.

But I'm a SEVERE mafia addict, so I always incredibly resist lynching myself, especially when it so insanely directly contradicts my win condition.

There's a solution - you adapt to the game you are playing and formulate a strategy to win within those conditions. Can you adapt, MP? BR and I adapted in the Monopoly game, we had many long discussions on how to go about winning, and it was not at all the kind of game we were used to playing.

[FZ.]

timmer doesn't deserve to get lynched right now just because he's the "alternative" to me. He could be any alignment for all I know, but I don't see why he should be lynched over practically most everyone else right now. Hence, I need to die.

Apparently, I failed spectacularly at my win condition. I've accepted my fate. It's OK.

FZ., just ignore me then. I clearly said I don't trust you at all. And keep denying it. Repeat after me. "Civilians exist. Civilians exist..."

Stop it, come on
Let's say you're right, but I'm still an old rouge, what do you expect me to do other than what I am already. That's what I still don't understand. My only option at winning is if I find all the new rouges and eliminate them.
Say I'm a new Rogue, my only chance at winning is if I find the old rogues and the detectives and kill them.
I've never played a Last man standing game, so I have no idea how I'm supposed to convince others to lynch everyone else but me.

1. You're very likely not an Old Rogue.

2. If you are an Old Rogue, I wouldn't blatantly advertise that fact, since you will be promptly eliminated.

3. I don't expect anything from you; you can play the game how you want. I just don't understand why we are all still beating around the bush with this civilian nonsense which such a designation clearly isn't relevant.

4. What you describe of the New Rogue win condition is definitely a faction win condition. Each faction has a specific objective they must fulfill. It's more complex than "civilians must eliminate mafia" and "mafia must eliminate civilians" because no faction has majority.

5. Convince others to lynch you by acting the EXACT OPPOSITE of me. But seriously, it seems as though a surefire way to avoid lynching in this game is to convince others that you are not a threat to them OR that you are a (potential) powerful ally OR both (preferably both). We are all currently hunting under the guise of civilians and mafia, but at endgame, you better bet that the players who have the better alliance or aligned win conditions will lynch the weakest link.

I have not hinted at my role the entire game. I think that the best way to stay alive is making people think you're an independent Rogue. They are the only ones who don't care who dies, and they don't even have to pretend they care. If you're playing the LMS type, that's what you'd be doing, especially if you feel so strongly about it. So now, question is, if I'm someone who actually cares who dies, do I believe you, or don't I

[Tangrowth]

I also don't want to make this game NOT fun or less fun for everyone else. Hence, if the majority of players in this game are lynching and suspecting based on a totally different understanding than I am, and I am impeding those players' fun by going on about my nonsense, then due to reason 1) above, I don't see why I should continue playing.

But I'm a SEVERE mafia addict, so I always incredibly resist lynching myself, especially when it so insanely directly contradicts my win condition.

There's a solution - you adapt to the game you are playing and formulate a strategy to win within those conditions. Can you adapt, MP? BR and I adapted in the Monopoly game, we had many long discussions on how to go about winning, and it was not at all the kind of game we were used to playing.

Fuck yes. If you're in, vote Soneji.

[Tangrowth]

DIE SONEJI

[Tangrowth]

Oh, wait, you mean I should adapt.

Fuck that, I'm voting myself.

DIE MOVINGPICTURES07

[FZ.]

I also don't want to make this game NOT fun or less fun for everyone else. Hence, if the majority of players in this game are lynching and suspecting based on a totally different understanding than I am, and I am impeding those players' fun by going on about my nonsense, then due to reason 1) above, I don't see why I should continue playing.

But I'm a SEVERE mafia addict, so I always incredibly resist lynching myself, especially when it so insanely directly contradicts my win condition.

There's a solution - you adapt to the game you are playing and formulate a strategy to win within those conditions. Can you adapt, MP? BR and I adapted in the Monopoly game, we had many long discussions on how to go about winning, and it was not at all the kind of game we were used to playing.

Fuck yes. If you're in, vote Soneji.

I don't mind voting him, but I have a feeling he's probably independent, thereby lynching him doesn't help anyone

[Tangrowth]

Metalmarsh better switch his damn vote back to me.

[Tangrowth]

Why don't I ever get a village idiot role? I'd actually win a game with that one, with how often I self-destruct in mafia games.