MINECRAFT - DAY SIX

[S~V~S]

Well crud, RIP MP Sad to see both you and your role go~

I am not sure whether I think Epi is bad or whether he was set up; it would be a bold move, but speed games are all about bold moves.

Why do you think he was set up - of all the people that could have been set up - why him specifically?
You do not find any of his or Elohcin's actions nose twitching?

This? I did answer it. I do not see him 7 llama being teammates, and I do think Llama is bad. That is why I was considering that the lynch of MP was setting up Epi.

[S~V~S]

ebwop, actually, I answered it in the very next post, lol~

In any case, Occams says the baddies attempted to kill me becasue i am not one of them. I know I am an easy target to switch things on to, it happens all the time. but this time it will be a hard sell.

So lets tal about Llama. i really do think he IS bad, and this attempt on my life has made me think so even more. i know i was not the only person who thought so, and several of you had other reasons for thinking so that I did.

i am also willing to discuss Epig~ i do think he put on a good showing this AM, then again, i thought he was pretty convincing in Avant as well. I still don't know that i think the hosts would have put him & his wife together, though.

[Tangrowth]

Now I have been keeping up since I died and I’ve been thinking about this all quite a lot (as you will see) and I’m 99% sure I know exactly what happened. Epignosis is a baddie, and Elohcin and S~V~S are both very likely teammates. llama73 is incredibly likely a civvie, or worst case scenario, a rogue. Let me elaborate.

First let me address the lynch switch because it’s clear that’s what killed me yesterday. Let me just say that I am absolutely confident I did not die because of vote manipulation. Yes, the Diamond Sword (civvie) and Zombie (baddie) have a lynch switch, but the key difference is that the Diamond Sword has a lynch stop and the Zombie does not. If Epignosis was the Diamond Sword, we could lynch him again today and he would use his stop. Consequently, there is no way in hell any slightly rational civvie playing the Diamond Sword would have switched the lynch instead of stopping it. Additionally, what motive would that player have in switching to any other player who, even if they felt nearly 100% sure based on what had happened so far that someone was bad, they really don’t know is bad. It’s way too early in the game and that person definitely would have thought twice before doing that. No, I am positive this was not the case, which leaves the possibilities of Epignosis being baddie, Epignosis being framed, llama being baddie, or llama being framed, or some combination thereof. Let’s look at Epignosis’s game behavior and llama’s game behavior.

Llama’s notorious philosophy on mafia gameplay has gotten him eyed heavily in this game and also in the previous speed game, MacGyver. Surprise surprise, he and Rox also gunned after each other hard in that game, and they were both civvies. I have seen nothing from either of them that convinces me of behavior anything other than normal behavior, and here’s why (for llama):

Llama:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13373#p13373 Here on Day 0 he says he likes ships, but everyone else mentioning it makes him nervous.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13382#p13382 He decides to go with House instead.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13489#p13489 Here he responded to me saying he saw a push for Ship, not House, but says he supposes both camps bear watching. It turns out I firmly believe he was exactly right here.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13495#p13495 He states it is hard to deduce quite yet since we don’t know which options were which and he states he’s not accusing Snow Dog, only pointing out it was noteworthy.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13525#p13525 Here he says he’s dreading Day 1 because it will be difficult to choose. S~V~S in particular jumped on him for this comment, saying he was “avoiding discussion”. She would later go on to say his behavior in this game is “TOTALLY different” than and “NOTHING like” his behavior in MacGyver. I find this VERY interesting because, in fact, it is exactly like his behavior in MacGyver (where he was civvie) and MOTU. Want to see?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99&p=6405#p6405 This is his second post on the entire boards before ANY games even started and we got a taste of his playstyle. He says he has “a terrible poker face. Therefore my strategy is to always appear to be lying, which generally only works after people realize I'm doing it.”
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=108&p=6748#p6748 Here is his first post in Day 1 in MOTU, where he first hints at his philosophy that he doesn’t like non-participants. You can read up on more of his MOTU behavior if you’re really interested because I think it was pretty clear in that game, but that’s not my focus. My focus is MacGyver.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=121&p=10247#p10247 Here he says at the beginning of Day 1, and I quote, “it will be a very difficult decision”. Sound familiar?
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=121&p=10417#p10417 Here again he says “It's really difficult to say at this early stage”
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=121&p=10429#p10429 And THEN he says this. “I really don't want to lynch anyone today because I feel like odds are that we will get a civvie by accident. It's terribly worrisome.”

So someone PLEASE explain to me how llama was trying to squash discussion here? Answer: He wasn’t. S~V~S is quite possibly suspicion mongering. Llama honestly seems no different to me in this game than he has in previous games; many are just refusing to recognize his normal behavior. He’s contributing, constantly, and organizing and expressing his thoughts in a manner consistent with what I’ve seen from him in and outside of mafia. Let me explain even further why I think he’s been set up as the absolutely perfect scapegoat because there’s more, but before that…

[Tangrowth]

Let’s go back to the idea of Epignosis being framed or actually being baddie. I know people were wondering, why would the baddies switch it to me? I wondered the same thing. But the more I’ve thought about it, the more I’ve realized it’s genius. They had a couple different ways they could get themselves out of this one. The first is the argument, well, what if the Diamond Sword switched it? I was taking some heat from players who clearly seemed to think I was bad (BF, LT, indiglo), so that’s a possible explanation that could take eyes away from Epignosis. But that’s weak on its own because the Sword also has a stop. The second argument is that I am a threat. I am a very aggressive player, they knew I wasn’t a baddie, and so they thought, let’s get rid of this guy now so we don’t have to deal with him later. I think this could have been the case, especially since I was starting to see what was going on with Epignosis towards the end there. Epignosis has seen how insanely aggressive I can be in MOTU, I’m sure he doesn’t want to deal with the wrong end of that. The third argument is revenge. Even beyond those three angles, I know this is absolutely something Epignosis (or S~V~S) would do to me. Really, as long as they got rid of someone that wasn’t them, it didn’t matter, but for all or some of these reasons I think they chose me.

Now I do consider the possibility that Epignosis is being framed. But what motive would a baddie team have in doing that so early on? Yes, the chaos and confusion, but hear me out. Ask yourselves how many of you feel sure Epignosis is bad. Not that many of you, correct? The switch didn’t clear out Epignosis as baddie on its own, so why would they waste it? Why not save it for later on when they could more badly use the numbers and even then spread the seeds of doubt? Because they panicked and they had to save Epignosis and at least try and plant some doubt. More on this later.

As I stated earlier, the lynch switch alone does not damn Epignosis in my opinion. I actually wasn’t seeing the suspicion on him because I saw the back and forth between him and He-Man as gameplay differences, and part of it was. On reflection, this is kind of interesting, and I’ll expand on why later:

Out of all the people who were in the lime light you didn't want to go there, instead you went for the people who you thought we're not going to defend themselves. This on its own speaks volumes to me.

So did thellama73. You didn't say a word to him.

This reads to me: “Don’t look at me! Look at him!”

But here’s the post that really sunk Epignosis for me:

He-Man coming after me and not thellama73 smells fishy to me. I was set to vote him, but I'm so uneasy about it. It was almost like he wanted me to vote for him.

Ugh, so much going on....

*Voting llama* because his vote for DP without responding to my concern about his train of thought pinged me like crazy. I think a number of the other suspicions going around have merit, but for now that was what got me the most.

That bothered me as well. I listed people, yes, but I said I wanted to hear what they had to say. I wanted to spur conversation (and we got that in spades, I think- good grief!).

I'm going to go with you on this, Russ, and vote for thellama73.

Tell me, someone, please, how a civvie would come to this bolded conclusion. The fact that Epignosis is still fixating on llama73 strikes me as interesting, he is definitely their scapegoat, because why not? He’s the perfect person! If he flips civvie, they could have just argued, well, he was acting clearly irrationally, correct? Sure, if we ignore what he’s stated and acted on regarding his own gameplay!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13938#p13938 Here Epignosis says all of the Day 0 “bickering” he dismissed as the “red herring it was”. I KNOW this not to be true. He’s flat out lying.

Then he says:

Roxy I am precious lol also epig made that comment about making him vote me not snow dog

Epig llama had enough attention you had none he was trying to take heat off of him you made your comment to blend. This is why I aimed my suspicion at you and not llama

I think you and thellama73 are together. I think you wanted to absorb my vote, since he had, in your own words, "enough heat."

If you're bad, there's no such thing as enough heat.

Now he says He-Man and llama73 are together. Again he never address anything directed about him.

Let’s summarize why Epignosis looks baddie just through his own behavior:

1. He pushed for ship. I realize I was considering all options earlier, but now that I strongly believe ship was the baddie option, this is notable. Especially since Elohcin also voted for ship and her behavior is even more suspicious (more on her in a bit).
2. He pulls a NO U on He-Man when He-Man calls him out, and since has been trying to paint He-Man still as bad, in addition to an easy scapegoat (llama73). This is classic baddie behavior, guys, I’ve been in enough mafia games and been baddie enough to know.
3. I asked him earlier in Day 1 to contribute his thoughts regarding everything. He ignores me. In fact, he refuses to say anything about anyone specifically in this game until he has his go-around with He-Man, and now about llama73. His post analyzing where his vote probably would go with the moderate-low posters deal? It’s called setting up your vote. I do this as a baddie all the time, I try to weigh the options in the thread and set up a future vote.
4. He refuses to defend himself.
5. He definitely had the most votes yesterday and should have died. Yet he didn’t. There’s no way he’s Diamond Sword and I very, very highly doubt he is being framed.

[Tangrowth]

Now there is even more that contributes to him being baddie and that’s via connections and circumstances. Let’s look Elohcin now:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13422#p13422 Guess what she does? Votes ship. And early on too, just like Epignosis did.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13598#p13598 Here she says it’s difficult to know who to lynch. Now why doesn’t S~V~S get on HER for squashing discussion? Double standard much? And then Elohcin sets up her future vote by saying “Snow Dog does seem most suspicious as others have pointed out.” That’s a very baddie phrase if I’ve ever seen one, trust me. I’ve been there.

Alright babes

@snow dog, I said epig was being hypocritical because he is willing to punish the low posters in this game but not the game he is hosting. I find it strange. I realise its still continuing a cant really be discussed but since its obvious I felt a need to say it.

So epig why punish the low posters in this game all of a sudden?

Linki

I know I said we may want to lynch Snow Dog earlier, but there were much fewer posts at the time and he seemed to be the only one (other than low posters) that we could point our finger at. However, now I am being pinged by He-Man. He mentions that Epig is being hypocritical by wanting to punish low posters here (by voting for one of them) but does not punish them in MOTU which he is hosting. Obviously, as a host, Epig must stay neutral. He cannot punish low posters in MOTU. He can, however, look at low posters in this game as trying to fly under the radar (which is what I think many baddies will do). I think baddies will do one of two things - be a low poster to try and fly under the radar or come out aggressive and pointing fingers for no good reason just to try to get the attention of players off of them while keeping their post counts up. I think that He-Man is doing the latter. I also feel bad for LT. He-Man seems to defend her a good deal as a low poster which makes me think that he may have BTSC with her which would mean she is baddie as well. Way to call out a teammate there He-Man.

This is pingworthy. He-Man starts going after Epignosis, and she flip flops on Snow Dog because she’s starting to realize she might have to vote to save her teammate. She seems to strongly think He-Man and LT are baddie teammates. Just read this post! It’s absurd. Why would she say this if she were civvie? She has been very cautious in the MOTU game. Remember how she said repeatedly that she didn’t want to post anything until she was absolutely sure? This is a stark contrast.

Oh, and I don't see how the first poll has anything to do with it all. I had no information about the poll. I voted ship for the hell of it. Like I said, nothing to go on.

This very much reads to me as the shifty-eyed baddie. “I didn’t do anything. What are you talking about? Nothing else to go on. No, I’m not baddie. Ship wasn’t the baddie option. Let’s not talk about this.” Seems she wants to squash discussion about this. Just like Epignosis saying it was “bickering” and a “red herring”.

Then there’s her vote. Even weirder!

What has pinged me on my catch-up (so many posts for Day 1, it's great!) was Elohcin jumping in to defend Epignosis then accuse He-Man and LT of having BTSC for He-Man overly defending LT. For starters, I don't think He-Man overly defended her at all. Second, I know Elohcin and Epignosis are married IRL, so I suppose it's possible her defensiveness on his behalf is coming from a personal place, but I could just as easily see them being teammates and Elohcin was concerned at the heat Epignosis was suddenly taking. (I know, feels ironic that I'm accusing Elohcin of the same thing she accused He-Man of ).

*

- I never said He-Man "overly defended" LT. He did defend her low posting, however, which pinged me. Why would he do that? And, as I already think he may be a baddie, if he is defending LT, she may be a baddie as well. I'm just trying to have fun and make some speculations from what I see going on in the thread.
- Epig being my husband IRL had nothing to do with my comment about He-Man's accusation against him. I thought it was silly to compare Epig's reactions to low posters during this game with those of MOTU which he hosts. It seemed to me that He-Man was just trying to point a finger and take attention off of himself. Like I said, a host has to stay neutral whether a player posts 100 times or just once. A player can look at low posters and deduce that they may be trying to lay low to avoid confrontation and being lynched. So again, I will vote either He-Man or a low poster.

She starts to back off He-Man a bit and sets up a vote for a low poster. Then she votes DP who coincidentally also already had one vote against him. Come on. If Elohcin isn’t baddie, I will eat a sock. No, I will eat thousands of socks. And that's cannibalism for me!

[S~V~S]

LOL

Some day we will play a game where you do not suspect me when i am a civ.

I'm out.

[Tangrowth]

Now good old S~V~S. She is not ringing too civvie to me, and here’s why. All of this sort of fits the missing piece into the giant baddie puzzle.

@llama~ I am not coming hard at you for no reason. You have made remarks aimed at squashing discussion twice, then complained that you would have nothing to base a vote on due to no discussion. This, IMO, generally leads to a vote for a civvie for a weak reason, which is a pretty baddie move. It may not mean that, but it struck me pretty hard from your ennui remark on.

@Snow, noone likes being misquoted in Mafia, it gets you killed.

She has been gunning after llama73 so insanely hard, and her repeated reasoning? Squashing discussion. And initially it was his ennui remark, which honestly, should have obviously been taken with a grain of salt. How does that make him a baddie again? And well, Elohcin and Epignosis were very clearly squashing discussion as well, correct? Look through S~V~S’s posts. She clearly avoids talking about them for most of Day 1 and then votes… who? Llama.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13794#p13794 Here’s her actual vote post. Surprise. Any coincidence that the baddies are STILL trying to get him lynched?

If Epig comes up civ, I am gonna be looking squarely at llama again.

His play style here is TOTALLY different than in MacG, and if Epig turns up good, then I think Llama was being saved.

Also, Kate has been really busy today, and may be running a bit late~

Look at this. TOTALLY different? Come on, S~V~S, you’re a better player than that, there’s no way you honestly believe that. Refer to my analysis of Llama up above. And she sets up llama being saved! The first one to mention it. Coincidence?

Now look at the string of posts as the discussion after the Day 1 lynch result of me takes place. S~V~S is being very, very careful about Epignosis. Just read her posts sequentially here:

Aww too bad! RIP Socktastic!
I wonder who/how Epig was saved?

Yeah~ was it him/his team, or is he an innocent victim of a frame up? I could see it either way.

I really, really think llama could be bad,and don't see him and Epig as teammates. And I did not see anything all that suspish about him or Elo on a quick read, i will reread tonight.

I say this kind of crap as a baddie ALL the time. Oh yeah, I’ll reread later tonight. Meanwhile I go back to my BTSC and figure out how I can get out of this.

I can't help wondering why they would choose to switch it to MP. Why not llama who had the second most votes?

Becasue that is who they were saving? That is why I think it could be a frame job. Or I could be wrong~

*shrug*

She still keeps trying to argue that frame job. But she starts planting doubt in her thoughts about it. She sounded pretty sure just before to me, don’t you think?

SVS, you think Llama is bad due to some "piling on" issues previously?

I don't really think the frame job theory on Epig holds a lot of water for me. (Simply because now I know for a fact that at least 2 of the voters are not baddies.) However, I suppose some baddies could have gotten it started... so that is something to consider.

"A fact"?

And I think he is bad because of the way he reacted to discussion on more than one occasion, the way he ignored my pointing it out until I brought it up again, and then after basically saying discussion was stupid and annoying, implying there was really nothing to go on for a vote. Nothing to do with "piling on" issues.

He is acting NOTHING like he acted in MacG. Everything he says just says "bad" to me.

Now she says AGAIN. Llama is acting “NOTHING like” what he acted in MacGyver. What?

@Hosts~ were the roles randomized, cherrypicked, or both?

There is no civ BTS unless I missed something, and I do not know that I see Kate putting a married couple on the same bad team, or if I see that happening randomly (although, tbh, I think there is a better chance of that than of Kate putting them together).

And then there’s this bullcrap. What? Why would she not put a married couple on the same team? Does this make sense to anyone else? Panic mode.

SVS, you think Llama is bad due to some "piling on" issues previously?

I don't really think the frame job theory on Epig holds a lot of water for me. (Simply because now I know for a fact that at least 2 of the voters are not baddies.) However, I suppose some baddies could have gotten it started... so that is something to consider.

Actually, I think quite the opposite. I think if we lynch Epi (and I am sure we will) and he turns up civ, that the baddies are in the end, not the beginning. But if he turns up bad (and that is very possible) I am guessing the other baddies will be in the scattered voters. Better safe than sorry would be their strategy.

Why is she so sure we’ll lynch Epi if she’s so sure about llama? Very weird comment to make.

OK, so that means basically random~ Andrew is unlikely to know of interpersonal relationships on the board. So Epi/Elo teaming is more possible, but I am still not sure i buy it.

And Thanks Kate, for being generous

She’s still not sure she buys it. Trying to push llama as the alternative and Epignosis framing, but very subtly since her direct strategy may backfire. She’s slowly inching away, just like a baddie, but still trying her absolute best to get llama lynched. Why? Because she’s the front guns!

I’ve been a baddie enough of the time to know how the best kind of strategy works. You put at least one player out there as your big time front guns, trying to seem all civvie and participant. In MOTU that was me and Snow Dog was my ace in the hole, my backup. Then the rest of the baddies can kind of sit back more while your big time guy takes all the risks, trying to steer the civvies. Then if it backfires, your big time guy may get lynched, but your others sitting back weren’t arguing that same risk, and they can even distance from the big time guy the whole time.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13886#p13886
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13889#p13889
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=129&p=13892#p13892

Just read these.

Very true, it has. And here is why.

You ridiculed or otherwise tried to make those engaging in discussion look bad. This really struck me. I mentioned it right away, and you did not reply to it, although you were in the thread, and made several posts, until i had to bring it up a second time. When you finally did address it, you were dismissive of it. As you kind of still are. This is contrary to your actions in MacG. When someone mentioned you, or spoke to you, you were right on it.

This also struck me.

Then saying, "well, you just think i am bad, so I won't bother to reply" seems to me like you are trying to imply I am being unreasonable, and that my suspicions need no response. Reasonable people will ignore them. Basically blowing me off. I am always willing to back off and admit it when i am mistaken, and humble myself when i have made a mistake, but you are not giving me anything to work with in that direction, tbh.

Man, she’s really trying to nail llama, isn’t she? And it seems like it was working there for a while during the night period.

I am tenacious, lol. I really am.

Yes, I've noticed.

So still no serious response?

Gotcha

Smug baddie. Epignosis has been pulling this as well. Civvies aren’t smug; they have no reason to be.

I am tenacious, lol. I really am.

Yes, I've noticed.

So still no serious response?

Gotcha

I'm an experimental player. Today's experiment is to refuse to give you a serious response. Let's see how it works out!

It will most likely work out hurting my feelings, but whatevs. Intentionally trying to make me feel foolish is a time tested way of upsetting me and making me and my suspicions look stupid. Wonder where you heard about that?

Pulling the emotional card. No way would civvie S~V~S do this, I highly doubt it.

Also epig didn't really fight or deny the suspicion on day one it looks like he knew he wasn't being lynched.

This is true. Having done some rereading of the time right before the poll ended this AM (I was trying to post on phone and got a zillion linkitises, I missed a lot of what happened at the time), I have to agree with this, he really didn't. So while a frame is still possible, the possibility seems more remote to me now. Although it is very possible he could be the civ switcher, or just timing is in play here about his lack of defense, and it is still a frame

His last few posts really are pretty civvie feeling to me, so

It still feels to me that with the votes spread as widely as they were, and having reread, that the drop on Epig at the end felt like a save. He really did not seem as suspish as some of the other vote getters, all of the non boring discussion was about other people, them the boom gets dropped on Epi when it was starting to look like Llama was going down.

Boom! Look at this. Totally backpedaling now. And she responds to He-Man of all people. This is perfect. Now if Epignosis DOES get lynched instead of llama or if llama gets lynched and flips civvie, she can start backpedaling before the Day 2 period even starts, and hopefully people won’t remember all of this. It probably would have worked too, if I (and others somewhat) didn’t point it out.

Check out the bolded. It’s a direct contrast to everything she was saying before that. Why would she change her mind like that? So she can set up possibly voting for her teammate if her llama thing doesn’t stick, which she’s now beginning to worry it might not. I mean, seriously, read this and then read all the bad things she’s said about llama. She is in panic mode, and rightfully so.

If you add in S~V~S’s behavior from earlier in the game, like the way she went on about how house was all protective and such, it felt really fake to me and it didn’t really make sense. It only adds to the jigsaw puzzle that she seems like a very likely third piece to me. Then of course, there's this new development...

Perhaps the baddies retreated to their chat room to regroup.

Don't see how any of these guys can survive a nightkill:

Zombie - An undead mob. Decides who sends in the kill each night, can switch one lynch during the game.
Spider - Creepy huge arachnid. Each night he scares the heck out of a player thus insanifying him for the next day period.
Skeleton - A reanimated bunch of bones. His vote is worth 2, he can split his votes via PM.
Creeper - A creepy green creature. Each night he creeps up on a player and blocks his ability for the night.

\

With the possible exception of the Creeper blocking his own teammate, the Skelton, I believe it was in the post, thereby wasting two powers in one night in a speed game for the sole reason of giving one player who was not under one hell of a lot of suspicion some cred.

Awesome plan.

Other than that, I don't see how this team could survive a self directed kill.

I think this is EXACTLY what happened. This is exactly the kind of baddie ballsy move S~V~S would try and play, and given how she isn't reading civvie to me at all in the rest of the behavior outlined above, AND that it completely dumbfounds me as to why the baddies would even target S~V~S, I feel it's a risky plan and it does not change my evaluation of these facts. In fact, it only solidifies it, that in order to make up for her probably throwing Epignosis under the bus today while still trying to push for llama, she needed a much better plan to paint one of the main people on her team as civvie, ESPECIALLY since Elohcin and Epignosis are really bringing the heat.

--------

In conclusion, I think we need to absolutely lynch Epignosis today. Assuming he turns up baddie, then we lynch Elohcin the following day, and very possibly S~V~S the next. I am still open to the possibility that S~V~S could be a blinded civvie, but I really don’t know about that one. If Epignosis does, on the crazy off chance, flip civvie, then we will know we have to look elsewhere and that the framing was actually right. But I extremely don’t think that’s the case, and I hope that highlighting all of this really helps all of you fellow civvies realize this as well, like I have. Because I’ve given this WAY too much thought and it’s dipped into my studying time (oh well, lol), but for good reason, because this is some really, really concrete evidence here.

I noticed others were coming to similar conclusions during the latter part of the Night 1 period as well, so anything I echoed in here that someone else might have said, I naturally agree with that person’s assessment. To say the least, I am very confident in these assessments. Take all of Epignosis, Elohcin, and S~V~S’s behavior in total, and you’ve definitely got a very good case, especially for so early in the game. I am pretty much sold on voting Epignosis but I won’t do it just quite yet because I want to hear from all of you guys, and especially a few people in particular, to make sure I’m not off my rocker.

Linki with S~V~S, you keep trying to convince us that. Because it's clear to me what's going on here and you are not changing my mind at all. The opposite, in fact. I knew you would respond that way, the way you always do as a baddie. I don't feel sorry for you, and you're trying to discredit me. Let the facts speak for themselves, and if you want to come back to the thread and actually discuss any of this with me, I'll be here.

[S~V~S]

When this game is over, I get to call what you owe me. And you won't like it.

you are so wrong.

[S~V~S]

Voted llama.

[Tangrowth]

Go on, throw a hissy fit, instead of actually trying to combat anything of what I've said and try to defend yourself. You'll notice I'm even still slightly considering the chance I could be wrong about you. If I really am wrong, you're doing a terrible job convincing me with that kind of behavior.

[Roxy]

Here is the quote you missed SVS

Sorry Snow Dog for confusing you with Epig.

And thanks for the response anyway Epig. Still your post don't give me a very civvie vibe.

SVS- I have re-read llama and tbs he wasbacking up Snow Dog for most of the day but he did bring up low posters first acting like there wasn't much else to go on.
He really did not care or respond to other when they mentioned this was absolutely normal behavior from Porcu.
He just posted and voted not waiting for a response from Porcu.
He basically backed up every person that was brought up for lynch except Reywas.
Then this morning he refused to respond to all of your queries and suspicions.

I do wonder, however, about this last lynch. Why it was not switched to llama. I feel like I am missing a piece to this puzzle.

When you first posted that you thought Epig was framed I had to wonder why you jumped immediately to this conclusion. You said at first you did not see the case and felt it was a baddie drive to Epig. Now you say you see the case on Epig though you still hold out it was a frame.

There is no way a civ would have switched this lynch this early in the game with no civ btsc. It is just too early to be so sure and use your one time power on a person you have no idea about.

On the other side of the coin as a baddie I wouldn't use it to save a civ at all. I would be greedy and save it for someone on my team. Which is what I think happened.They probs left llama b/c either he is a teammate (not likely but probable) or b/c he was/is under a ton of suspicion.

I firmly believe this switch had NOTHING to do with the D 0 poll.

So I am extremely torn about what to think and I hope others weigh in with their thoughts maybe the picture will be more clear.

[S~V~S]

Go on, throw a hissy fit, instead of actually trying to combat anything of what I've said and try to defend yourself. You'll notice I'm even still slightly considering the chance I could be wrong about you. If I really am wrong, you're doing a terrible job convincing me with that kind of behavior.

I nearly get killed, and all I have done since the post is have to defend myself. I felt that llama was suspicious, and still do.

I think you ALWAYS read me that way. Always. You alwasy think I am bad.

i don't think I need to defend myself, I have done nothing wrong. So i voted for the person i really do think is most likely to be bad, and if you think I am the person most likely to be bad, then by all means vote for me.

[Tangrowth]

Go on, throw a hissy fit, instead of actually trying to combat anything of what I've said and try to defend yourself. You'll notice I'm even still slightly considering the chance I could be wrong about you. If I really am wrong, you're doing a terrible job convincing me with that kind of behavior.

I nearly get killed, and all I have done since the post is have to defend myself. I felt that llama was suspicious, and still do.

I think you ALWAYS read me that way. Always. You alwasy think I am bad.

i don't think I need to defend myself, I have done nothing wrong. So i voted for the person i really do think is most likely to be bad, and if you think I am the person most likely to be bad, then by all means vote for me.

I am considering the possibility I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. But I feel pretty dang confident in all of that, so unless there's some weird crap going on here, Epignosis is bad. You are not the main target in that way; I think you seem guilty by association and by your actions, but I'll be the first to admit I've read you wrong before. I just don't understand why you have to bring other games into the argument if you feel your actions stand alone here. How is llama acting so different than in MacGyver then, can you explain that to me? Because I'm not seeing it at all, obviously.

Why don't you think you need to defend yourself? That's silly. I had to defend myself against LT, BF, and indiglo's accusations of me just earlier even though they were wrong about me. It doesn't make them baddie and it doesn't make me a baddie since I had to defend myself.

[S~V~S]

Here is the quote you missed SVS

Sorry Snow Dog for confusing you with Epig.

And thanks for the response anyway Epig. Still your post don't give me a very civvie vibe.

SVS- I have re-read llama and tbs he wasbacking up Snow Dog for most of the day but he did bring up low posters first acting like there wasn't much else to go on.
He really did not care or respond to other when they mentioned this was absolutely normal behavior from Porcu.
He just posted and voted not waiting for a response from Porcu.
He basically backed up every person that was brought up for lynch except Reywas.
Then this morning he refused to respond to all of your queries and suspicions.

I do wonder, however, about this last lynch. Why it was not switched to llama. I feel like I am missing a piece to this puzzle.

When you first posted that you thought Epig was framed I had to wonder why you jumped immediately to this conclusion. You said at first you did not see the case and felt it was a baddie drive to Epig. Now you say you see the case on Epig though you still hold out it was a frame.

There is no way a civ would have switched this lynch this early in the game with no civ btsc. It is just too early to be so sure and use your one time power on a person you have no idea about.

On the other side of the coin as a baddie I wouldn't use it to save a civ at all. I would be greedy and save it for someone on my team. Which is what I think happened.They probs left llama b/c either he is a teammate (not likely but probable) or b/c he was/is under a ton of suspicion.

I firmly believe this switch had NOTHING to do with the D 0 poll.

So I am extremely torn about what to think and I hope others weigh in with their thoughts maybe the picture will be more clear.

This is a statement, not a question.

And I go back and forth on whether a team would use their switch this way. I have done it, and it basically gave my team the win. We got them to suspect the person we switched from, and basically drove the whole game from there. And that was not a speed game~ they need a few lynches to go their way and most of their kills to go through, and they can win fairly fast and easily. In this case. they get rid of the person they switch to, they cast huge suspicion on Epig and anyone who defends him, and go through a few lynch with no suspicion whatsoever.

I think it is worth it. Like I said, i have done it.

My main problem with it is I really think Llama is bad. Very much so. And I don't see him & Epig being teammates. So unless Wolf is bad, I am not sure what to think about Epig. Hence my waffliness on him. He fooled the living heck out of me in Avant.

[birdwithteeth11]

Go on, throw a hissy fit, instead of actually trying to combat anything of what I've said and try to defend yourself. You'll notice I'm even still slightly considering the chance I could be wrong about you. If I really am wrong, you're doing a terrible job convincing me with that kind of behavior.

I nearly get killed, and all I have done since the post is have to defend myself. I felt that llama was suspicious, and still do.

I think you ALWAYS read me that way. Always. You alwasy think I am bad.

i don't think I need to defend myself, I have done nothing wrong. So i voted for the person i really do think is most likely to be bad, and if you think I am the person most likely to be bad, then by all means vote for me.

No. Unfortunately, MP is right. When you get cornered as a baddie, you start freaking out and panicking more and more. And usually if it goes on long enough, you start reacting very emotionally, stop defending yourself altogether, and just give up saying "You're wrong. I'm a civvie." over and over again. Or some variation thereof. I wasn't entirely sure about you, but given everything Alex has pulled up on you, I'd say it's a pretty damning case.

Actually, even though I'm only half-awake right now, reading through all of Alex's giant posts pretty much confirmed a lot of suspicions I had mentioned about certain people and was thinking about others. In fact, I'm half-tempted to go ahead and vote before I go to bed.

I think Epig/Robert definitely needs to go first. Then I'm fine with either SVS or Elohcin. The order doesn't really matter too much to me.

Really though, I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on all of this before I vote. But I feel confident enough that I would be willing to go ahead and vote very soon for Epignosis.

Linki with SVS

[S~V~S]

Also, I do really think Llama was trying to squash discussion, even if you don't MP; first the Ennui remark, then giving Rox & Snow grief for having a prolonged discussion. Then his refusal to discuss suspicion of him. My guess is he was waiting for me to die, lol.

Nothing he did or said after my initial suspicion of him made me feel any differently. Like at all.

Linki w/BWT, I also freak out when i am a falsely accused civvie, which is like every game i play as a civvie. It is frustrating never getting to be a civvie becasue i spend more time defending myself as a civvie becasue every *&&*(^@^&*%@&) baddie team thinks setting me up is awesome and fun.

And really, it is not

[Roxy]

First who is ' Wolf'?
So I guess most of it seems like a statement I really shouldn't be so lazy with my punctuation.

So you see why I hesitate to jump right to frame job? Like you said you have done the same and gave your team the win. Which is why I ask why did you jump so quickly to frame job? Just b/c of llama? He could be rogue but I don't think he is mafia.

You really do not say a lot about Elohcin. You did not find her and Epig's parroting to be nose twitching?

[blindfaeth]

Very interesting MP I have to say its given me a lot to think about. I wouldn't put it past SVS to try killing herself, but I've never been any good at reading her.

I do agree though that epig is the obvious lynch choice. It didn't occur to me but that totally makes sense. That probably the sword did not save him unless he is the sword, in which case hell survive a lynch today so it's a win win.

It makes me nervous that llama is the only one with a vote, so ill go ahead and cast mine for epig.

Linki x4

[Tangrowth]

Go on, throw a hissy fit, instead of actually trying to combat anything of what I've said and try to defend yourself. You'll notice I'm even still slightly considering the chance I could be wrong about you. If I really am wrong, you're doing a terrible job convincing me with that kind of behavior.

I nearly get killed, and all I have done since the post is have to defend myself. I felt that llama was suspicious, and still do.

I think you ALWAYS read me that way. Always. You alwasy think I am bad.

i don't think I need to defend myself, I have done nothing wrong. So i voted for the person i really do think is most likely to be bad, and if you think I am the person most likely to be bad, then by all means vote for me.

No. Unfortunately, MP is right. When you get cornered as a baddie, you start freaking out and panicking more and more. And usually if it goes on long enough, you start reacting very emotionally, stop defending yourself altogether, and just give up saying "You're wrong. I'm a civvie." over and over again. Or some variation thereof. I wasn't entirely sure about you, but given everything Alex has pulled up on you, I'd say it's a pretty damning case.

Actually, even though I'm only half-awake right now, reading through all of Alex's giant posts pretty much confirmed a lot of suspicions I had mentioned about certain people and was thinking about others. In fact, I'm half-tempted to go ahead and vote before I go to bed.

I think Epig/Robert definitely needs to go first. Then I'm fine with either SVS or Elohcin. The order doesn't really matter too much to me.

Really though, I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on all of this before I vote. But I feel confident enough that I would be willing to go ahead and vote very soon for Epignosis.

Linki with SVS

You think so? You seemed to be seriously considering llama to still be bad just before. What makes you think I'm right then, and how did my post confirm your suspicions? Not accusing you of anything, just trying to understand you here. I want to make sure I'm not being blinded here, just in the crazy off chance that I'm wrong about Epi.

Also, I do really think Llama was trying to squash discussion, even if you don't MP; first the Ennui remark, then giving Rox & Snow grief for having a prolonged discussion. Then his refusal to discuss suspicion of him. My guess is he was waiting for me to die, lol.

Nothing he did or said after my initial suspicion of him made me feel any differently. Like at all.

Linki w/BWT, I also freak out when i am a falsely accused civvie, which is like every game i play as a civvie. It is frustrating never getting to be a civvie becasue i spend more time defending myself as a civvie becasue every *&&*(^@^&*%@&) baddie team thinks setting me up is awesome and fun.

And really, it is not

Why is the ennui remark squashing discussion? His explanation of that didn't work for you, that he was just making a comment that probably should have been in sarcastic orange? Knowing llama really well, I don't think such a small remark is uncharacteristic, in fact it is the opposite. It doesn't point civvie or baddie to me.

So you think llama was squashing discussion, but what about Epignosis and Elohcin like I highlighted above? Did you even read my posts or what (no tone involved here, it's a serious question)? I would appreciate a response from you there.

[S~V~S]

Also, tbh, I am more likely to walk away and give up as a civvie becasue I don't have a team depending on me. I am always glad when I survive an early NK, especially in a one baddie game, because then i don't have to worry about constantly defending.

And Roxy, i said more than once maybe 5 times, that I think it unlikely that the host would put them on the same team. Maybe they sound alike because they are married. No idea.

Linki @ MP, well, i don;t know him well. I thought it seemed like he was trying to imply that the current discussion was boring; I know the host thought so since she was going to end the day early.

[S~V~S]

And yes, Alex, I read them. Like I said, I find it unlikely they are teammates.

[birdwithteeth11]

I said I was leaning bad on llama, but I wasn't entirely sure. I had two longer posts from a bit earlier this evening. In them I discussed why I think either llama or Epig could be bad, but that I don't think both of them are. And after what you have posted, I'm starting to feel very strongly that llama is the civvie and Epig is the baddie. Hence why I am leaning toward voting for Epig, and quite strongly at that.

And like you said, a civvie lynch switch is definitely possible, but as I also mentioned earlier, I think it's very unlikely in this case.

Linki x2

[Tangrowth]

Very interesting MP I have to say its given me a lot to think about. I wouldn't put it past SVS to try killing herself, but I've never been any good at reading her.

I do agree though that epig is the obvious lynch choice. It didn't occur to me but that totally makes sense. That probably the sword did not save him unless he is the sword, in which case hell survive a lynch today so it's a win win.

It makes me nervous that llama is the only one with a vote, so ill go ahead and cast mine for epig.

Linki x4

I honestly put most of that together while I was at work today, seriously hoping I might be resurrected, otherwise it would have been a total waste. Lol. I got a ton of studying done today, but literally every single other bit of time was consumed by thinking about mafia. I've never been any good at reading her either, historically, but I think what I've concluded makes sense. I'm not as sold on it as Elohcin, I should say, though, but she does make a lot of the baddie puzzle pieces fit together really nicely. So either she is baddie or she's just really off the mark this game.

Exactly, so if Epignosis was the Sword anyway, it makes absolutely no sense because he would just stop the lynch today.

Linki with S~V~S: Why do you think that they wouldn't be put on the same team though? How does that even matter? Daisy and I are dating, does that mean we shouldn't be on the same team because I'm with her a lot? I just don't get it. You still REFUSE to respond to the fact that they were both very clearly squashing discussion. Epignosis dismissed all the Day 0 talk whatsoever as "bickering" and "red herring". So, what say you? Didn't you say the house had protective power? Why would you not even comment on them at all, and still refuse to give satisfactory answers now? You're not making any sense at all and you're seeming inconsistent (except for your insistence that llama is bad).

And with regards to llama, no, you don't know him well, so why are you so sure about him? Explain that to me and I'll gladly listen.

[Tangrowth]

I said I was leaning bad on llama, but I wasn't entirely sure. I had two longer posts from a bit earlier this evening. In them I discussed why I think either llama or Epig could be bad, but that I don't think both of them are. And after what you have posted, I'm starting to feel very strongly that llama is the civvie and Epig is the baddie. Hence why I am leaning toward voting for Epig, and quite strongly at that.

And like you said, a civvie lynch switch is definitely possible, but as I also mentioned earlier, I think it's very unlikely in this case.

Linki x2

I'm cool with that, I just wanted to understand your train of thought. I'll still hold my vote for now to hear from Epignosis, but I'm pretty positive that I'm onto something here and I doubt he can convince me otherwise. I'll let him try though.

[S~V~S]

First who is ' Wolf'?
So I guess most of it seems like a statement I really shouldn't be so lazy with my punctuation.

So you see why I hesitate to jump right to frame job? Like you said you have done the same and gave your team the win. Which is why I ask why did you jump so quickly to frame job? Just b/c of llama? He could be rogue but I don't think he is mafia.

You really do not say a lot about Elohcin. You did not find her and Epig's parroting to be nose twitching?

"Wolf" is a role

Wolf - Wild until the baby wolf finds him or he finds the baby wolf. Each night, while wild, he will switch the targets of any two players. Each night searches for the baby wolf. Once tame... *secret*

And I was not making a comment on your grammar, i was explaining why i did not reply to it. And we obviously do not find the same things to be nose twitching, since I do not find myself even remotely suspicious.

Linki @ Alex~ I know Kate well, lol, and i initially doubted she would put them on the same team. When she said Andrew assigned it, i thought it more likely as it was more likely to be a random result with a 4 person baddie team. But the odds would still be against it.

i could be wrong. I don't know her at all, and mainly know him from the mod/host thing in MOTU.

[Roxy]

Well we have to do some serious consideration before jumping to vote. I want to be sure that we are making all the right assumptions.
I hope I don't wake up to a bunch of jumpy early voters. Though I guess I understand why bf and SVS pulled a Mother Superior.

Thanks for all the responses SVS it gives me a lot to think about.

Linky SVS - in my mind when I read it I thought it was an auto correct of some sort not a reference to the role.

[S~V~S]

What is a Mother Superior?

[Flyin' High]

I swear you stole the thoughts right out of my brain MP. I am definitely down for trying to lynch Epignosis again and if he flips bad then going for an Elohcin lynch.

And S~V~S, to answer you question about why I thought it was odd that the mafia tried to kill you last night--it made sense to me that the mafia would be the ones most interested in introducing the "Epignosis was framed" theory into the thread, and as indi pointed out, you were the first to mention that idea. And there were at least a few posts on that notion during the night phase. So that's what I was referring to.

But like MP has said, I think it makes the most sense to try to lynch Epignosis again today.

[Roxy]

Also I knew you didn't refer to my punctuation I did. LC used to say "your posts would be read so much better if you punctuated correctly. Hence the signature he made with the yellow submarine thats says "loves peace hates punctuation" hahaha

Linky - Mother Superior jumped the gun. It was my silly attempt to incorporate some Beatles into my post.

[thellama73]

I am SO glad you're back, MP!

Pretty much everything that has happened so far, from the lynch switch to the targeting of SVS makes me look guilty. It is my belief that this is intentional, trying to get you guys to vote for me.

What I don't understand is how sure of my guilt SVS is. At this point in the game, I am not sure about anybody except MP, so it seems odd to me that she would have such conviction in going after me. I still think a frame of Epignosis is more likely than a straight baddie protection, but the person whose behavior seems really odd to me is SVS. She reads like someone trying to set me up and that it has now escalated to the point of overplaying her hand.

[S~V~S]

Also, Alex, I have to do rereads all the time since I am mostly on phone during the day, and if there is a lot of posting (like right before the last lynch, when all the Epig/Elo discussion was happeneing) I was going through liek 10x linkis just trying to post a vote. So maybe you say that about "a quick reread" all the time when you are bad, but i do not.

i really need to do those reread since I miss a lot on the phone during weekdays.

Linki @ FH~ OK, but I still think it is plausible in a speed game especially that the baddies "use it or lose it". You have to use up those one use items fast, or the game is over. Ask Russti, MacG ended with him holding a civ switch and stop. In Jurassic Park at LP my team used our switch to save a member of the OTHER baddie team, lol, and while the civs were concentrating on them, we took them all out.

The more likely scenario is that Epig is bad, but I am not totally convinced becasue the pile on him really felt like an attempt to save Llama, and there is only the one bad team. Or maybe he is the Sword. I just really, really think there was a save of Llama.

@Rox, OK, ha ha, I thought it was like a "thing" I was woefully ignorant of

Linki @ Llama, I am sure in my gut. That certainly is not infallible. And which hand did i overplay exactly?

[S~V~S]

Why would I try to set you up?

[thellama73]

Why would I try to set you up?

If you were baddie, and you knew I was civvie, you would have every motivation to set me up.

[S~V~S]

Um, the baddies know who the civvies are, except for the Indies. I mean why YOU? Why not any of the other 12 or so civvies?

[birdwithteeth11]

Yeah, I think I'm going to end up waiting until tomorrow and letting Rob try and defend himself. I don't think there is much he can say that will convince me though.

So unless something weird happens, I will most likely be voting Epig. But I need to get to bed since I work at 6 AM the next 3 days in a row. Ewwwwww

[thellama73]

Um, the baddies know who the civvies are, except for the Indies. I mean why YOU? Why not any of the other 12 or so civvies?

Why not me?
I was already garnering suspicion when you started commenting on it, and one might think I was an easy target.

[S~V~S]

I mean, I have been fairly tenacious since almost immediately after your ennui remark. It does not appear to have done me much good.

Why would a baddie do this?

And if I recall, i was the first to bring you up.

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

RIPIYWG indi. D: WB MP.

[thellama73]

I mean, I have been fairly tenacious since almost immediately after your ennui remark. It does not appear to have done me much good.

Why would a baddie do this?

And if I recall, i was the first to bring you up.

Yes, you're right. I looked back and you were the first to really go after me. I am not certain you are bad, nor am I certain of all your motivations, but I do think your behavior towards me has been odd.

[S~V~S]

Um, the baddies know who the civvies are, except for the Indies. I mean why YOU? Why not any of the other 12 or so civvies?

Why not me?
I was already garnering suspicion when you started commenting on it, and one might think I was an easy target.

Actually, historically, DP is an easy target. he gets lynched quite often since he tends to be quiet, more so when he is a civ than not. He talks more when hes a civ cause his teammates prod him. For old times sake, this goes out to you DP:

[thellama73]

It seems the vote is headed towards Epignosis, so I have been thinking hard about him.

Logically, I think the baddies would have been smarter to switch a civvie to another civvie than to protect one of their own. However, I know Rob quite well and we usually have quite a good rapport. There has been no such banter during this game. There has been a cool distance between us, and it saddens me. This makes me think that he is indeed a baddie and likely his wife with him. I would be okay with a Epignosis lynch today.

[Roxy]

I have probably had more btsc in games with DP than anyone else.
Last year we went through many games and had btsc. Some games happening at the same time. A record so far as I know I think it was 4-5 games in a row. I am sure he will back me up on this and clarify more.
I never once 'prodded' him to post more. Why would I do that b/c that would be so un-Porcu-like.

[S~V~S]

I have probably had more btsc in games with DP than anyone else.
Last year we went through many games and had btsc. Some games happening at the same time. A record so far as I know I think it was 4-5 games in a row. I am sure he will back me up on this and clarify more.
I never once 'prodded' him to post more. Why would I do that b/c that would be so un-Porcu-like.

In Dogs & Cats at TP we were teammates, we won that one, out whole team lived.

When it was time for a poll, or we needed him in BTS, I posted a Board of Canada song on his wall on FB, or somewhere else he might be, once in the minichat at RM, lol. It worked, he always showed up

My point was not that, though. My point was that Llama said that he, llama, was an easy target, yet he voted for DP who is often lynched when a civ due to low posting. I, like Llama, tend to view voting for easy targets as a baddie move, and DP can be an easy target.

[S~V~S]

And actually, that WAS the one thing that DID strike me about Elo~ her wanting to vote for a low poster so badly. There was TONS of discussion, and low poster voting at that point was kind of odd. I had forgotten that.

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

Um, the baddies know who the civvies are, except for the Indies. I mean why YOU? Why not any of the other 12 or so civvies?

Why not me?
I was already garnering suspicion when you started commenting on it, and one might think I was an easy target.

Actually, historically, DP is an easy target. he gets lynched quite often since he tends to be quiet, more so when he is a civ than not. He talks more when hes a civ cause his teammates prod him. For old times sake, this goes out to you DP:

[Spacedaisy]

I giggled at your Beatles humor Rox!

[Roxy]

Also that makes no difference to this game I just wanted to point out you can never tell with Porcu. He is very tricky to read, I do feel like I can read him better than most and am leaning civ on him so far. I remember dogs and cat mafia - good times for some lamo!

Interesting point about Epig and you, llama.
More food for thought.

Ahh ok SVS perhaps I better call it a night my eyes are tired.
I thought it super strange she was going to place a vote on Juliets who wasn't even playing. That convo with MP (?) Had me doing a double take.

Linky so much - daisy - <3 I knew if anyone would get it, it would be you!

[Spacedaisy]

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

I have probably had more btsc in games with DP than anyone else.
Last year we went through many games and had btsc. Some games happening at the same time. A record so far as I know I think it was 4-5 games in a row. I am sure he will back me up on this and clarify more.
I never once 'prodded' him to post more. Why would I do that b/c that would be so un-Porcu-like.

Yeah, somewhere around there.

Admittedly, I'm not even sure what affects my posting patterns, lol. I know if I feel lost I'll disappear almost entirely, which is why I often get louder later into games. Less people = easier to follow. Then sometimes I just feel in a zone where I post lots because ideas are reaching me. I've been getting really far in almost every game I've played lately though. Maybe people are finding me less wonky now.

[S~V~S]

Also that makes no difference to this game I just wanted to point out you can never tell with Porcu. He is very tricky to read, I do feel like I can read him better than most and am leaning civ on him so far. I remember dogs and cat mafia - good times for some lamo!

Interesting point about Epig and you, llama.
More food for thought.

Ahh ok SVS perhaps I better call it a night my eyes are tired.
I thought it super strange she was going to place a vote on Juliets who wasn't even playing. That convo with MP (?) Had me doing a double take.

Linky so much - daisy - <3 I knew if anyone would get it, it would be you!

I know, me too, I am fried. Although, like I said, DP is often an easy target. So Llama, who voted for me, saying HE was an easy target made me feel good about my early "hissy fit" vote for Llama. That was really the whole point of me bringing DP up~