Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Russtifinko]

Death and Taxes

Long ago, two cavepeople, Ug and Ack, were sitting in the sunshine on a rock by a pond on a spring day not too unlike this one. Ug had two animal furs and was very, very warm, but very hungry. Ack had two sharpened sticks and had caught a pile of fish, but shivered in the breeze off the water. Ug looked at Ack's sharpened sticks, then down at her furs. At that time, you had to kill someone to get something you wanted from them, but Ack had sharpened sticks so she didn't like her chances there. Slowly the glimmer of an idea began to dance in her head. Ug placed a fingertip on her lower lip, and then lifted it in the air triumphantly. Then she began to hoot and holler and point from her fur to one of Ack's sticks. Ack had been very busy looking for fish to spear, but eventually he looked up and cottoned on to the idea. Trade was born! Soon both were sitting contentedly in the sun, full of fish and warm.

Soon, people realized you could "trade" all sorts of things! Everyone began carrying around as many objects as they could hold in the hopes of coming across someone to trade with (since they didn't have Netflix yet). This got very cumbersome, and remained so until the greatest of the Egyptian kings, Ankhahotep, one day got tired of carrying the royal throne on his back. "Enough!" he cried, but in Egyptian. "From now on, we're only trading things for gold!" Gold, of course, was still very heavy, so this was only a marginal improvement. Ankahotep decided to ease his subjects' burdens by taking half of everything they traded for the government. This was the first tax.

However, no one could think of a solution to the problem for a very, very long time. Eventually they just started handing out paper, and imagining that gold was attached to it. The economy was born! Eventually, an American president by the name of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, took the revolutionary idea one step further. He was at a great disadvantage in trading, because he had never seen gold and couldn't imagine it very well, so his money was worth less than other people's. Frustrated by never being able to trade properly (there was still no Netflix), he had the idea of just making the value of the paper up entirely! Now people make up all sorts of wonderful numbers, driven by "invisible hands", "animal spirits", "stocks", "inflation", and plenty of other made-up things that make it all very exciting but of course don't really exist.

Of course, ever since Ankhahotep introduced the idea, governments have been taxing as often and as much as possible. This is one way to get something you want without doing or giving anything in exchange. The other is murder. Which brings us to the pinnacle of human history....

Death and Taxes: an Economics Mafia
Brought to you by Russtifinko and thellama73

Roles:

Adam Smith - Invisible hand - Can direct action from behind the scenes (takes another player's power nightly)


Jean-Babtiste Say - Supply creates its own demand - Selling 2 or more of anything makes them worth $2 each, regardless of what others sell.


Carl Menger - Founder of the Austrian School/Marginal revolution - knows that every little bit helps, and has an extra vote for just that reason


Ludwig von Mises - Human Action - holds highly-attended lectures nightly (BTSC with one player every Night)


F. A. Hayek - Competing currencies - Makes his own currency, and yours doesn't count - Prevents a player from buying or using any items once per Night, and sells his items for untaxable Bollars instead of normal dollars.


Joseph Schumpeter - Creative destruction - Can destroy an item in his possession to get something better


John Nash - Game Theory - Make two players play a game of your choosing each night


Vilfredo Pareto - Pareto efficiency - Prevent target player from being made worse off at night


Paul Samuelson - Public Goods - Can share the use of another player’s item


Ronald Coase - Coasian bargaining/Property Rights - May not be stolen from/share his items


Milton Friedman - Monetarism - Can alter the money supply, doubling what the government pays for guns and butter once per 4 booms.


Murray Rothbard - Enemy of the state - Prevent redistributive actions.


Arthur Pigou - externalities - His votes also spill over onto the player to each side of the one he votes.


George Akerlof - asymmetric information - Role check

Mafia:

John Maynard Keynes - In the long run, we’re all dead - Kills nightly. If he dies, his kill passes to the next living member of his team.


Karl Marx - Dictatorship of the proletariat - Once per Night, chooses to target a player and destroy a random item (Kapital) they are holding, or to redistribute one dollar from a player of his choice to another.


David Ricardo - Ricardian equivalence - Prevents tax cuts


Robert Solow - Convergence/growth theory - uses technology to improve his items

Serial Killer:

Thomas Malthus - Malthusian population model - Is worried the population will outstrip humans' ability to supply themselves with food, so he keeps the population under control by killing nightly. If his victim has any Butter, he takes one from them.

The Economy:
Guns - takes one Night to produce. May be sold to the government on subsequent Nights. The value it sells for is determined by the supply; if more players sell Guns than Butter on a given Night, it is worth $1, but if more Butter than Guns are sold, Guns are worth $2. If both sell equally, they are worth $1.50 apiece.
Butter - Same as Guns, but vice versa.
Dollars - earned by producing and selling Guns and Butter.

Items:
Guns, butter, and dollars are not items in and of themselves, but can be used during Night periods as currency to purchase items. Once purchased (except for NK protects), items may be used at will.
1 Gun = Extra lynch vote
1 Butter = Remove a lynch vote from yourself.
1 Gun + 1 Butter + 1 Dollar = NK protect for tonight only
5 Dollars = Bribe someone's vote.
4 Guns + 1 Dollar = Extra kill
4 Butter + 1 Dollar = Lynch stop
4 Butter + 5 Dollars = Resurrect


Events:
Booms - triggered when more players produce than sell.
Busts - triggered when more players sell than produce.
Taxes - occur every 3rd day. Because llama is a co-host, it is flat and each player pays $1. Taxes are eliminated if Ricardo dies and Rothbard is still alive. If llama dies and Russti is still alive, we move to a proportional tax system and tax 30% of all earnings instead.


Participants (Listed Alphabetically):
acrosstheaether - Murray Rothbard - Lynched Day 6
Bass_the_Clever - Karl Marx - Lynched Day 5
birdwithteeth11 - Replaced by Golden 2.0
Black Rock - David Ricardo - Lynched Day 3
Dom Replaced by Vompatti, Wombat of Mystery.
Dragon D. Luffy - Killed Night 6 by Robert Solow
Elohcin - Thomas Malthus - Lynched Day 2
Epignosis - Killed Night 1 by Adam Smith
fingersplints
G-Man
Golden - F.A. Hayek - Lynched Day 1
Golden 2.0
JaggedJimmyJay - Killed Night 7 by Robert Solow
Metalmarsh89 - Killed Night 1 by John Maynard Keynes
MovingPictures07 - Killed Night 4 by Robert Solow
Roxy - John Maynard Keynes - Lynched on Day 4
sanmateo - Joseph Schumpeter - Lynched on Day 7
Sloonei - Killed Night 2 by John Maynard Keynes
TinyBubbles - Killed Night 3 by John Maynard Keynes
Turnip Head - Killed Night 5 by Robert Solow.
Vompatti

The Story So Far
Day 1
Night 1 - Golden is lynched.
Day 2 - Epignosis and MetalMarsh89 are killed.
Night 2 - Elohcin is Lynched
Day 3 - Sloonei is killed.
Night 3 - Black Rock is lynched.
Day 4 - TinyBubbles is killed.
Night 4 - Roxy is lynched.
Day 5 - MovingPictures07 is killed.
Night 5 - Bass_the_Clever is lynched.
Day 6 - Turnip Head is killed.
Night 6 - acrosstheaether is lynched.
Day 7 - Dragon D. Luffy is killed.
Night 7 - sanmateo is lynched.
Day 8 - JaggedJimmyJay is killed.

[Russtifinko]

The Laws of the Land:

The rules below are few, and relatively simple. For that reason, transgressions may be punished harshly. Commit them at your peril.

1. No being outside-of-game-context mean to people! We're all here to have a fun time.
a. This rule requires cessation of joking about another player when asked.
b. If you are feeling frustrated, posting in thread is likely not a good idea. Oftentimes taking a few hours to do something else can really help your mindset in these situations. Use your best judgment, and take time to think about the consequences of what you post.
c. If at any point you feel bullied, unwelcome, or uncomfortable, please bring it up to llama and it will be fixed.
2. No talking to other players about the game outside of the thread, except your assigned BTSC partners.
3. If you have game-related information that you did not get in the thread, then it is not supposed to be in the thread. Don't say it, and don't hint that you have it. This includes roles, PMs from llama or me, and information you figure out as a result of your Night power. If information you have doesn't fall into one of those categories and you think it might be private info, please ask llama or me before posting about it.
4. You may not target the same player with a Night power two days in a row.
5. This is my host color. Don't use it, please! Unless you are thellama73, in which case you may feel free to use it or to get your own.
6. Dead players must post in dead red.
7. For off-topic (non-game related) discussions, use this color (labeled OT in the post-drafting screen).
8. I urge you to consider carefully whether you must use sarcasm. See Rule 1. If you must, use sarcastic orange so that it is easily interpreted by others.

[Russtifinko]

Hi all!

You'll notice this thread is locked; you can't post in it yet. Llama has your roles and will be sending out PMs shortly (hopefully tonight). At that point we will unlock the thread and begin the game.

So that we can keep things moving once the game starts, I will create the Day 0 poll now. The poll will last for 48 hours regardless of when your roles actually come, assuming there is no major delay in llama getting you your roles. This will allow me to get the Day 1 poll up immediately after coming home from work on Tuesday.

[Russtifinko]

The Story so Far...19 of the brightest minds in modern economic theory were summoned. They came from many different backgrounds, but mostly from Austria. Their task, at least on the surface, was simple. Europe was in decline; Greece, Italy, and Spain were weighing down the Euro, member states were electing parties whose main political platform was leaving the EU, and loads of French people were still wearing funny hats. The EU tasked these luminaries with a complete redesign of the continent's economy, from its very foundations up, in order to remain relevant in a world that was, increasingly, ignoring Europe.

They were given no rules or guidelines. Their decisions would determine the fate of an entire continent. Their first move was to lock themselves in the labyrinthine basement of the Hague, with no electronics and only enough supplies and wine to last 3 weeks. No one, not friends, nor family, nor the rich and influential, nor the loud unruly mobs of the working class, could be allowed to dilute the brilliance of this all-important conclave.

What the members didn't know was that some of them were so convinced they were right that they were willing to kill to get their way. And, as they would soon find out, a madman lurked among them...

[Russtifinko]

Ok, role PMs are out and we are officially under way!

Keep in mind, Day 0 will now last approximately 23.2 hours. Unless tons of people haven't checked in, in which case we will extend it. No one has info on the poll.

Have fun out there!

[Marmot]

Darn, Metalmarsh89 is not an option in this poll.

[Marmot]

Also, votes are not changeable in this poll.

I voted for social science, because it is a science.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Hello, guys. This is my first game in this forum. Nice to meet you.

So, any ideas on what this Day 0 is for? I figure Night 0 is so we can produce our first guns/butter, but what about the day?

Or is it some forum tradition I'm not aware about?

[Bass_the_Clever]

Hello, guys. This is my first game in this forum. Nice to meet you.

So, any ideas on what this Day 0 is for? I figure Night 0 is so we can produce our first guns/butter, but what about the day?

Or is it some forum tradition I'm not aware about?

Welcome its great to have some new blood to spill lol. Day 0 is usually a chance for everyone to check in.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Ok then.

And what about the poll? Do those usually have some in-game effect? It seems to be the case.

[Tangrowth]

Yay game!!

Very excited to be playing this awesome game, especially with the players who are new to The Syndicate!

I forgot to mention Day 0 in the sign-ups thread when you folks were asking about it. It is a tradition that developed back in the Lostpedia and associated mafia forum days before I started playing (2010), since I'm not completely aware of its origin.

That said, hosts typically utilize Day 0 for any combination of the following:
- Ease players into the game and make sure that all of them will be active participants
- Introduce the players to the theme off of which the game is based
- Provide something for Day 1 discussion
etc.

Traditionally, when I first started playing, hosts generally set up Day 0 polls in a fashion wherein there were several options, each of which benefited a certain group (i.e., civilians, mafia team 1, mafia team 2, SK). Often some players would have 'information' on the poll, with the host telling them which option would benefit their group. After the winning selection's results were demonstrated either immediately or later in the game, it gave not only the winning faction an item or ability to be used to help later on, but provided another piece of possible evidence on which to analyze whether someone is civilian or mafia.

Since the inception of The Syndicate, those types of Day 0 polls have largely fallen out of fashion, and the purposes seem to be more variant. I've seen Day 0 polls that were completely meaningless, some that awarded prizes individually (rather than factions), and some that have had a significant impact on the game. For example, in my recently hosted Death Note game, I gave the players the option to select from 8 different options for the lynch procedure for the remainder of the game. The option with the most votes is how all lynches would proceed for the remainder of the game (though I left that ambiguous, as some interpreted it might be Day 1 only).

Despite the varying uses for Day 0 polls on The Syndicate, perhaps the most common usage of Day 0 polls is to give players a fun way to interact before things get very serious during Day 1 (and an opportunity to nerd out about the theme) as well as possibly offer individual prizes, such as an extra lynch vote to be used at any time or removal from the Day 1 poll.

If I had to guess, since Russ came outright and said that no player has info, I would believe this poll probably falls into that category.

[Bass_the_Clever]

Omg Mp's long post have started. lol

[Tangrowth]

Omg Mp's long post have started. lol

The length of posts is relative.

[Tangrowth]

To add to my Day 0 thoughts, I believe Day 0 might have developed originally as a fun precursor to Night 0, during which everyone could use their night actions.

Interestingly, Night 0 fell out of fashion, and most games I recall playing go straight from Day 0 into Day 1, skipping Night 0, thus making "Day 0" a prelude of sorts.

[Bass_the_Clever]

Omg Mp's long post have started. lol

The length of posts is relative.

Is it really I think I nailed in in one line. Live and learn noobs.

[Marmot]

If I had to guess, since Russ came outright and said that no player has info, I would believe this poll probably falls into that category.

I would agree with this.

[Tangrowth]

Omg Mp's long post have started. lol

The length of posts is relative.

Is it really I think I nailed in in one line. Live and learn noobs.

You really want to gain my D1 vote, don't you?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Alright. Thanks for the explanations, guys!

I guess I'll just vote on whatever option I feel like then.

In other words, the third one, because it's kind of true.

[Bass_the_Clever]

Omg Mp's long post have started. lol

The length of posts is relative.

Is it really I think I nailed in in one line. Live and learn noobs.

You really want to gain my D1 vote, don't you?

LOL.

[Tangrowth]

Alright. Thanks for the explanations, guys!

I guess I'll just vote on whatever option I feel like then.

In other words, the third one, because it's kind of true.

No problem.

And that seems like a good strategy.

As to which one I'm selecting, it is a shame there is not an "All of the Above" option.

[Tangrowth]

Omg Mp's long post have started. lol

The length of posts is relative.

Is it really I think I nailed in in one line. Live and learn noobs.

You really want to gain my D1 vote, don't you?

LOL.

You're bad.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Well I suppose this does give players an opportunity to fluff without wasting a day phase on it.

Which is cool compared to where I come from, where D1 is basically "fluff as much as possible and lynch whoever is talking the most".

[Bass_the_Clever]

Omg Mp's long post have started. lol

The length of posts is relative.

Is it really I think I nailed in in one line. Live and learn noobs.

You really want to gain my D1 vote, don't you?

LOL.

You're bad.

I wish.

[Marmot]

Alright. Thanks for the explanations, guys!

I guess I'll just vote on whatever option I feel like then.

In other words, the third one, because it's kind of true.

No problem.

And that seems like a good strategy.

As to which one I'm selecting, it is a shame there is not an "All of the Above" option.

[Tangrowth]

Well I suppose this does give players an opportunity to fluff without wasting a day phase on it.

Which is cool compared to where I come from, where D1 is basically "fluff as much as possible and lynch whoever is talking the most".

Precisely.

There are a few players (sometimes myself) who like to engage in Day 1 antics in Day 0, but most people generally "get serious" about the game once Day 0 has ended.

Doesn't mean our Day 1's are always full of deep conversation though, that's for sure. :P

[Tangrowth]

You're bad.

I wish.

Fair enough.

I've got my on you, good sir.

[sanmateo]

hi



yall have some great emojis

[Golden]

I always felt day zero (historically) was an opportunity to have something occur which actually did something and gave a starting point to analyse who might be bad - ie, to help combat the basic 'day one lynch you may as well randomise' thing. That's why MP refers to the historic trend of factions potentially having info.

When I host, day 0 polls are always meaningful and impact the game in some way. With some other hosts, they are entirely meaningless.

[Bass_the_Clever]

You're bad.

I wish.

Fair enough.

I've got my on you, good sir.

I expect nothing less.

[Marmot]

hi



yall have some great emojis

[Bass_the_Clever]

Look at the amazing bass.

[sanmateo]

When I host, day 0 polls are always meaningful and impact the game in some way. With some other hosts, they are entirely meaningless.

wb with the current hosts? did they use their day 0 polls to define a game mechanic in previous games? cuz i just voted without giving it much thought and maybe i shouldnt have done that

[Bass_the_Clever]

I wanted the fish one.

[Golden]

When I host, day 0 polls are always meaningful and impact the game in some way. With some other hosts, they are entirely meaningless.

wb with the current hosts? did they use their day 0 polls to define a game mechanic in previous games? cuz i just voted without giving it much thought and maybe i shouldnt have done that

I've never been hosted by russti and only once by llama, whose day 0 poll in Keeler was very impactful (but also it was very clear that it was impactful).

[Golden]

As for the central question "What is economics?" I honestly have no idea. You'd think a lawyer might have a better grip on economic theory. I really don't. The answer I'd pick would be something like 'it's what hopefully makes sure that all our financial systems work and that we don't end up screwed'.

I'm not a cynic though, so three and four are out, and science feels more accurate than philosophy to me (I'm not much of one to see law as philosophy either). So that's where I'll vote.

PS - I don't know who most of the economists are either. In fact, I have more or less zero idea of any economic theory, other than I guess ideas like tax, free market, regulation. That's about it. Just in case anyone wants to pile on me later because I'm not clued in to it.

[Tangrowth]

I selected "a social science" since that's the most accurate option, though one could argue (as I previously noted) that all of the options are at least somewhat right.

As an accountant, unlike Golden, I am required to have knowledge of economic theory as well as mathematical application (I just finished taking PhD-level classes on Microeconomic Theory and Econometrics I last semester). That said, I am definitely an accountant, not an economist, a rift that is notable in academia, since the very notion of a "cost" differs across both disciplines. So while I know at least some basic knowledge about most of the roles (economists), and some detailed knowledge of a few, I'd say I'm very far from an expert on any economics matters.

You're bad.

I wish.

Fair enough.

I've got my on you, good sir.

I expect nothing less.

When I host, day 0 polls are always meaningful and impact the game in some way. With some other hosts, they are entirely meaningless.

wb with the current hosts? did they use their day 0 polls to define a game mechanic in previous games? cuz i just voted without giving it much thought and maybe i shouldnt have done that

Llama is a bit unpredictable, but I have a hard time believing he wouldn't give some meaning to this poll.

That said, I'm pretty sure this is Russ's game, and he has only hosted once previously (The Hobbit). Knowing Russ pretty well though, I stand by my assessment that this poll does have an impact, but that its impact is likely small (awarding individual prizes).

My backup guess is that the options somehow affect the game as a whole, rather than awarding individual prizes, and that we won't be necessarily aware of these game impacts until they occur. If this is the case, we will likely see a Night 1 poll and perhaps subsequent Night polls as well, serving a similar purpose.

I really don't know though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

this whole Day 0 thing is new. i do see its value at least for identifying high-probability lurkers before the game has really kicked off. neat idea. might be worth discussing for RYM.

i voted economics as a branch of philosophy, because science itself is a branch of philosophy (including social sciences). i think there is some room, albeit not a lot, to argue that economics are grounded too much in speculative non-proofs to be truly scientific, but i won't be such a stickler. instead, i'll take the more general classification which i don't think has room for argument. i am a generic insufferable psychology student though so i know nothing.

[Tangrowth]

Hosts: Any way we can get the role listing in the first few host posts somehow?

Thanks!

[Tangrowth]

i voted economics as a branch of philosophy, because science itself is a branch of philosophy (including social sciences).

Fair enough.

[Golden]

this whole Day 0 thing is new. i do see its value at least for identifying high-probability lurkers before the game has really kicked off. neat idea. might be worth discussing for RYM.

For me, there few things better about cross-pollination of sites than sharing ideas. I hope we get to see some of yours over here, too. There is something incredibly satisfying about delving into a game and discovering a new mechanic you haven't encountered before and considering it's possibilities.

Roxy, I think this is the first time I've played with you since my return.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

definitely, Golden. i anticipate i'll encounter a number of new concepts in this game. first and foremost -- 95% of the games where i'm from are closed setups. so this one is different in the most fundamental way. exciting!

[Golden]

What is meant by 'closed setup'? That the roles aren't disclosed?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Thought it'd be relevant:



#teamkeynes

(oh wait, that's mafia. #teamhayek then. At least until the game is over)

They also made a sequel:

[Dragon D. Luffy]

What is meant by 'closed setup'? That the roles aren't disclosed?

Pretty much. The idea is that it prevents players from figuring out ways to break the game early on. It also lets hosts troll them harder.

[Russtifinko]

Hosts: Any way we can get the role listing in the first few host posts somehow?

Thanks!

Yes!

I was wondering when that rap would show up! I dig it. #teamkeynes

[Marmot]

definitely, Golden. i anticipate i'll encounter a number of new concepts in this game. first and foremost -- 95% of the games where i'm from are closed setups. so this one is different in the most fundamental way. exciting!

Quite the opposite here. Roles often have lots of secrets involved, but the setup is open 95% of the time.

But llama is one of our hosts here. One of his tendencies with hosting is that he will intentionally word the role descriptions of roles vaguely to make them difficult to understand, and add some ambiguity. But of course, each player will receive a proper description of their own role abilities.

[Russtifinko]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT:

Due to unforeseen circumstances, all of your current roles are now null and void. New roles are being distributed.

As a result, Day 0 will still end tomorrow, but missing the Day 0 poll will be looked upon with extreme leniency.

Apologies for any inconvenience/disappointment this causes.

And just as we were discussing open setups, too....

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What is meant by 'closed setup'? That the roles aren't disclosed?

Pretty much. The idea is that it prevents players from figuring out ways to break the game early on. It also lets hosts troll them harder.

Yep. a little more room for mod creativity, perhaps. but also harder to balance.

[Golden]

I'm disappointed. I had a role I actually knew who they were! Now I bet I know nothing about my economist

Sorry that happened, though, Russ. Never fun hosting when something goes wrong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

good to catch the problem so early.