Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Black Rock]

Also MP, just curious:

http://www.yeastgenome.org/reference/S0 ... 1/overview

That's a biology paper. Who is Choi in the accounting field?

Since you really seem to want to know, I'm replicating "Audit Office Size, Audit Quality, and Audit Pricing" by Jong-Hang Choi, Chansog Kim, Jeong-Bon Kim, and Yoonseok Zang. It was published in Auditing: A Journal of Practice and Theory. In 2010.

Variables include: |DA|, AFEE, OFSIZE, BIG4, INDSPEC, BTM, CFO, CHGSALE, EMPLOY, EXORD, FOREIGN, INVREC, ISSUE, LAGACCR, LEV, LNTA, LOSS, NAS, NBS, NGS, and ROA.

Holy shit that's boring.

A lot to put your mind on in 20 minutes while you're also eating your bean dip and conversing with your fiancee.

I mean, it's not even 20 minutes, since you have to read what people say in order to respond online.

You're a more talented fellow than I.

Precisely why I haven't accomplished anything productive most of the evening and why I need to stop wasting my time.

If you think I'm lying about something as trivial as RL, by all means, vote for me, but that will somehow rank in the most absurd accusations ever leveled against me, and that says something.

Your real life is trivial? Can't be.

Yes, I think you're full of shit.

You were here with rapid fire answers to things.

When I pointed out that you had said nothing about my case on DDL, it took you almost 20 minutes to reply.

Your answer to me was that you were

1) Eating supper
2) Talking to Annie (could happen simultaneously, I'll grant you)
3) Involved in complex Academia

Now, 1 & 2 can happen together. I eat and talk to my wife every evening (and I don't make bean dip for supper but that's another issue )

But you want me to believe that 1, 2 & 3 happened in 20 minutes, a 20 minute window that would have required you to ALSO be reading the thread and ALSO be responding to people? I note that you didn't just respond to me. You responded (sometimes within the minute) to others. That indicates that you were actually on your computer reading the thread.

I don't believe you. No sir, I don't.

OMG Epignosis.

[Marmot]

Epignosis raised some good points. Look at the timing of MovingPictures07's posts.

[Epignosis]

Your real life is trivial? Can't be.

Yes, I think you're full of shit.

You were here with rapid fire answers to things.

When I pointed out that you had said nothing about my case on DDL, it took you almost 20 minutes to reply.

Your answer to me was that you were

1) Eating supper
2) Talking to Annie (could happen simultaneously, I'll grant you)
3) Involved in complex Academia

Now, 1 & 2 can happen together. I eat and talk to my wife every evening (and I don't make bean dip for supper but that's another issue )

But you want me to believe that 1, 2 & 3 happened in 20 minutes, a 20 minute window that would have required you to ALSO be reading the thread and ALSO be responding to people? I note that you didn't just respond to me. You responded (sometimes within the minute) to others. That indicates that you were actually on your computer reading the thread.

I don't believe you. No sir, I don't.

You couldn't be any more fucking wrong.

I've been sitting here for hours working on updating my spreadsheet on which variables I need to pull that correspond to the variables defined in the paper (for example, AFEE is log of audit fees, the simplest variable by far, and thus I need to pull "AUDIT_FEES" from the Audit Analytics Audit Fee subdatabase).

So I've been working on it, but in the past hour or two? I've made practically no progress because I've been busy being addicted here and then getting sucked into a ridiculous conversation.

I was catching up on the thread after eating and talking with Annie, yes.

This is just... I can't even.

Totally don't believe you.

To me, you are a bad manipulator. See Roger Rabbit if anyone doesn't believe me.

And I *never* even bring up real life in a game thread for this reason. But I want to hear what you have to say about what I SAID about DDF. I don't want to hear about what you think about DDF. You managed to avoid that.

[Black Rock]

Things aren't looking good for MP.

How?

Like every other Day 1? What a surprise.

I always get lynched on either Day 1 or Day 7.

I seriously do not know what the hell is going on in this thread at the moment.

Metalmarsh, seriously, why did you vote for someone who already received a vote? That can't possibly be your explanation.

Epi, do you think I'm lying or not? Stop fucking with me. This is an absolute waste of time.

What explanation would you like? I can come up with another that would satisfy your incredulity.

Day 7 after you replaced in? If something becomes a pattern then...

I just did a quick scan of your posts. I would like to see a real explanation at this point.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - Golden

i've already talked a little about Golden's earliest content, so for this ISO i'll start here:

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

Whoah, TH. Where did that come from. Care to give me something I can actually respond to?

i think TH's cryptic vote provided us all with a nice opportunity to get a read on Golden, regardless of TH's actual alignment. it was the first real vote placed and it came out of nowhere, so that demands a reaction. and Golden's reaction here is the start of something that smells genuine to me -- tentatively.

So, TH's potential experience with me amounts to exactly two games. One in which he did not play and one in which he did. For whatever reason, despite us both having played with many other people on this site, TH and I had never had our mafia careers intersect until I returned from a long mafia break a few months ago.

The first game I played was Roger Rabbit. TH did not play. He did read along with it to some extent. That game had a day zero poll with a full story description that could potentially aid you in figuring out which way to vote. I put a whole lot of analysis in to that poll and came up with one option that I thought was the weakest choice, and I said so. Aces came in out of nowhere and voted for the option I had declared weakest. That option ended up winning. I pursued Aces after that, and ended up believing he was bad and hounding him on day one. Aces was lynched, and was bad.

Keeler mafia. TH and I were indy teammates. Day 0 poll again, this time you got items you voted for. I noted Bullzeye had opted for key and epignosis for safe. I also found epi's thread content deliberately obtuse. I called them both out as bad on day one. Both were bad. I also called out Dom for getting emotional. I was wrong about Dom (his play style had changed significantly in three years to what I remembered).

Common themes from those two games:

One - Poll 0 gave me a starting place for a genuine read. I don't know what to take out of day zero poll this time, especially since most votes came in before the role reshuffle.
Two - I was not going after people hard just because "thats golden". I went after them hard because I had a specific reason I thought they were bad. For the most part, I got them right. I'm not going to go hard after people just because thats what I am supposed to look like when I'm civ. I'm waiting to see something I think is bad to go after.

linki - eloh, expository. I generally leave any topical series we are doing to other people.

his defense is primarily built upon the notion that TH's vote was seemingly meta-based and TH doesn't actually know his meta (due to having played only one game with him). this strikes me as a fair point. effective meta gaming develops over a large number of games across multiple alignments. one game together makes me wonder how this meta read can be possible, and i think Golden's responses reflect the same incredulity. if i am in his position i think i respond similarly.

Sorry for multiple posts. Golden, I'm unclear. Do you suspect TH or not? How do you feel about him?

I'm not sure yet. I'm waiting to see what else he has to say about his vote.

I don't overly like that he thinks he can identify what is 'ungolden' after only two games with me.

On the other hand, I can't disagree that my game so far does not look like people's perceptions of me (perceptions, not reality). I know I'm remembered far more for the times I come out swinging than the times I don't, and it becomes a reputation. This is by no means the first time that people have suspected me incorrectly for not coming out swinging on day one, and I doubt it will be the last. I've learned not to find people suspecting me as inherently suspicious, as it can be my blind spot.

this might be called a slight backtrack. he doesn't understand TH's methods but grants some degree of validity to the assertion that he is off-meta in this game. i wouldn't know either way about his meta. this is a very minor ping if a ping at all though.

Golden. For reasons already stated. I don't like how is alleged meta is one of little involvement with the game. But I'd like to see other people's confirmations that this is indeed his meta, and that he doesn't normally engage people. I think Turnip would be able to answer that if he showed up. But if people tell me that Golden is usually more pro-active, then we have a problem.

This is just not even what I said. I don't have 'little involvement in the game' or 'normally not engage people'. Why do you keep painting me as saying 'I haven't seen anything to go after YET as me saying I don't have involvement with the game. You say I write 'stories about past games', but I ask you what you think the function of them was and you ignore me. The purpose was to demonstrate that I do engage people on day one - when I think I have a reason to think they are bad.

There is nothing I dislike more in mafia than someone flipping my words around to mean the exact opposite of what I said.

he is indignant in the face of what he perceives to be misrepresentation by DDL. the origin of this frustration is believable, even if i don't think DDL meant to paint him negatively as a manipulative objective. and being misrepresented is certainly a frustration, especially for a player who has rather arbitrarily started to draw a lot more heat in recent memory.

DDL - I have a reputation for being one of the best baddie hunters around. You haven't seen me play yet, so I don't know why you would judge my meta based on a description of it.

No, I didn't find a lot to be suspicious of in the walls of text. Honestly I find this game exhausting for how little content there is in the walls of text, and anything I might have found had already been talked out ad nauseum. Each to their own methods - I'm not finding others suspicious just because of their play style. If you don't like the way I play, too bad. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

Let me make one thing very clear - I'm not going to play a different way because you find me suspicious. I play my way.

Also, Epi just triggered my bullshit alarm, literally.

agreed re: Epi. his conduct re: MP07 smells very much like feces. i can smell his conduct, and it smells like feces. feces-scented forum posts.

overall i read Golden as slightly more town than mafia.

[Epignosis]

In case no one sees it, 3J thinks I smell like shit.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In case no one sees it, 3J thinks I smell like shit.

just your posts. i am sure Epignosis the man smells otherwise. well, no i am not sure of that. i have no idea what you smell like.

[Black Rock]

In case no one sees it, 3J thinks I smell like shit.

To be fair, you often do.

[Epignosis]

In case no one sees it, 3J thinks I smell like shit.

just your posts. i am sure Epignosis the man smells otherwise. well, no i am not sure of that. i have no idea what you smell like.

Today's a good day, brother.

[Epignosis]

I want to vote either DDL or MP at this juncture.

However, I would like to know

what the other players are thinking about these two.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - JaggedJimmyJay

top bloke; good egg

[Black Rock]

Day 1 ISO - JaggedJimmyJay

top bloke; good egg

Are you sure you aren't being Biased here?

[sanmateo]

i think ddl did a lot of scummy shit but at this point im most likely gonna vote for mp07 or th (unexplained vote + "im playing unlike me on purpose"). although mm did the unexplained vote too but they have been more active. i'm looking at golden and wondering if someone's bussing him but i'm not gonna vote for them based on that, i just dont think they're being particularly scummy and its really odd that they are the one player with votes on them rn

or i might just vote ddl out of sheer spite, who knows?

[Turnip Head]

I want to vote either DDL or MP at this juncture.

However, I would like to know

what the other players are thinking about these two.

DDL seems cool to me so far. I've got a slight civ read on him, mainly for his attitude re: dead civvies not being able to win (originally). Seemed like genuine frustration because it went against the civvie team's goals.

MP honestly seems alright to me so far, though I see what you're saying about the timing. I'm giving him the BOTD atm, but I'll be watching him closely. I believe that he tries to do as much multitasking as possible as often as possible. Maybe he played up just how much he was doing in that 20 minutes, but I'm not thinking it's nefarious currently.

What do you think of Golden?

[Turnip Head]

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

i get this is an Official Champion (TM) but pointing out you are deliberately not playing to your meta feels inherently suspicious to me

You had to actively cut out the part of this quote that shows MM bringing it up first and me responding to him.

[Epignosis]

I want to vote either DDL or MP at this juncture.

However, I would like to know

what the other players are thinking about these two.

DDL seems cool to me so far. I've got a slight civ read on him, mainly for his attitude re: dead civvies not being able to win (originally). Seemed like genuine frustration because it went against the civvie team's goals.

MP honestly seems alright to me so far, though I see what you're saying about the timing. I'm giving him the BOTD atm, but I'll be watching him closely. I believe that he tries to do as much multitasking as possible as often as possible. Maybe he played up just how much he was doing in that 20 minutes, but I'm not thinking it's nefarious currently.

What do you think of Golden?

I wanted to see where he was going. I agree that his presence is different than what I've seen elsewhere.

[sanmateo]

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

i get this is an Official Champion (TM) but pointing out you are deliberately not playing to your meta feels inherently suspicious to me

You had to actively cut out the part of this quote that shows MM bringing it up first and me responding to him.

what part? http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 72#p143172

[Turnip Head]

Yeah you're right, I forgot I didn't quote it. It's the post directly above that one, which is probably why I didn't quote.

[Golden]

this might be called a slight backtrack. he doesn't understand TH's methods but grants some degree of validity to the assertion that he is off-meta in this game. i wouldn't know either way about his meta. this is a very minor ping if a ping at all though.

Off-perception of my meta. I don't think the idea that I'm off-meta is accurate, but I can at least understand that people find the games when I'm loudest most memorable, and I don't think genuinely perceiving me that way is unusual.

I'm glad to see TH is here. I want him to respond to some of the points I've made.

[Turnip Head]

I want him to respond to some of the points I've made.

No you don't.

I'm working on it. Give me a little time.

[Golden]

Yes I do.

[sanmateo]

Yeah you're right, I forgot I didn't quote it. It's the post directly above that one, which is probably why I didn't quote.

you still say you aren't playing to your meta, i find that sus to say.

but tbh i feel like i'm missing out a lot on these discussions about your meta and golden's meta because i dont know you 2 at all

[sanmateo]

because i dont know you 2 at all

and no one is really elaborating on what they mean by off-meta

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - Metalmarsh89

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 54#p143054 MM post too big to quote here #1

he takes a few stances here, though i don't quite follow them. he called sanmateo mafia, and then immediately disagreed with someone who suggested he might be mafia. there's a carefree tone about this post and those like it that i find myself appreciating though. he seems willing to put whatever he wants into the thread regardless of how it'll make him look. this post is also important because it's the first accusation MM leveled against Golden (leading up to the eventual vote). it's just a "you're scum" though so i have no idea what motivated the read.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 01#p143101 MM post too big to quote here #2

here he supports Golden regarding the "drive-by lynch" tendency around here. i am probably going to take special interest in any mentions of Golden by MM considering the vote.

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

I was planning on voting first.

I would like to hear more from Turnip Head. What are your thoughts on JaggedJimmyJay? Or any of the new members of the Syndicate?

Why is Golden bad news in your eyes? Is it that he is playing the role of mediator/player representative? I've been doing the same, thought with less generalization.

he responds to TH's abrupt Golden vote by asking what motivated it. he offers a potential explanation (before allowing TH to provide his own). it's the bit bolded above. this might suggest MM had a mindset in place already for suspecting Golden, but i'm not sure it'd make much sense since he also asserted the accusation could apply to him.

It's my idea of fun.

well there's his explanation for the vote. his post history only bears out a consistently expressed suspicion of Golden, but it remains entirely unexplained beyond this quote here. i am skeptical that a player who has put a strong effort into Day 1 would be willing to place his only vote "for the fun of it". it'd seem to be a waste of the time he spent prior to the vote elsewhere in the thread. and it's the second vote for a player who is still alone in the tally.

i find MM's vote and explanation for it suspicious. i find his candor and behavior a little less suspicious. i'll give him a generous null for now.

[Golden]

MMs vote seems to me pretty much par for the MM course. He is known for self-voting day one.

[Golden]

I want to vote either DDL or MP at this juncture.

However, I would like to know

what the other players are thinking about these two.

I think you shanked MP.

I actually think he could be bad, but I'm not going to vote for him after that. I think I'll likely vote for you, your attitude reminds me a lot of the way you took to Blindfaeth in keeler.

RL stuff should be off limits as far as gameplay goes.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - MovingPictures07

another important one, because he has vaulted up among the current top suspects for many people seemingly. my immediate feeling is that i don't agree with that at all. let's see how i feel after i've done my digging...

Syndicateers, if any of you might have meta-based input: who among the current player list (other than the new players) do you think are most likely to respond in an emotional way to early pressure? for you RYMers, i am looking for their version of RDW.

Either me, Dom, or Roxy.

I get a lot of attention due to my propensity to be given bad roles, baddie gambits I've pulled off, general miscommunications, as well as various other reasons, most notably posting a lot and leaving much for players to pick at and turn mountains into molehills. I have therefore gotten emotional to repeated accusations in my direction early in games, after what I felt were unfair accusations by many in consecutive games.

Dom tends to be a very driven player, who acts a lot of questions, but has an emotional demeanor. He wants people to explain themselves and he will ask whatever questions he has on his mind. If someone voted for him or eyed him early on, you better bet it'd get a response.

Rox is similar to Dom, I think, but her playstyle doesn't have the question-asking character that Dom has.

one of the most consistent early criticisms leveled against MP early in the game is that he's been "overly helpful" to us noobs. i highlight the post above only because it serves as an example of MP helping a noob by answering a question. here's why i think that accusation is bunk:

in my time playing with MP on RYM, he has been by far the most intrinsically friendly player i know. and RYM is a very friendly place. moreover, MP made a concerted effort to bring me and other RYMers over to The Syndicate for a game; it was obvious to me that it was genuinely important to him. with that in mind, it makes perfect sense to me that he'd be as helpful as he can be to those of us who've asked noobish questions either about the site or the players in it. i don't know his meta around here, but i honestly don't care. if this isn't his meta, then his meta has changed with his travel around the Internet seeing mafia in different lights and with different player bases.

this would be a good opportunity for the other non-Syndicate regulars to pipe in and either agree or disagree with me. RYMers and Naruto kats, do you feel MP's behavior around the noobs in this game has been remotely suspicious?

i don't.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 64#p142864 - Rainbow Reads #1

it's important i think that MP has ranked DDL as his #1 town read (more than once). he hasn't just defended DDL blankly with very vague comments like Bass and others did. he made a bold Day 1 assertion that the thread's Public Enemy #1 was his biggest town read. and those of you who criticized MP for raising the possibility of a WIFOM gambit re: G-Man, i ask this:

what does a mafia MP07 gain from taking this strong town stance on DDL throughout this phase? it's an important distinction -- vague or soft defenses are legitimately suspicious, but MP's hasn't been that at all. one might assert that he is protecting a mafia team mate, but then the theory immediately becomes more far-fetched (because two players are being called mafia together before either of them has flipped). if someone feels MP OR DDL is mafia, then that player must grant that a mafia MP would then be making every effort to prevent the lynch of a townie on Day 1. and that would be definitive WIFOM.

acrosstheaether
Bass_the_Clever
birdwithteeth11
Black Rock
Dom
Dragon D. Luffy
Elohcin
Epignosis
fingersplints
G-Man
Golden
JaggedJimmyJay
Metalmarsh89
MovingPictures07
Roxy
sanmateo
Sloonei
TinyBubbles
Turnip Head

thank you so much for this. i have it open in its own tab constantly. :P

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 87#p143187 - Rainbow Reads #2

maintains DDL as his top town read.

Does this really have anything to do with what players have been randomized civilian roles though?

i don't understand the question. can you clarify your meaning relative to my post you quoted?

Let me clarify.

You appear to be claiming that your reads fall into categories as such:

Contributors (DDL, me, sanmateo, Sloonei)
Contributor with minor ping (Golden)
Neutral read folks

While I understand your logic, I'm just noting: Yes, we are contributing, but what does that necessarily have to do with what roles we have been randomized?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that I'm increasingly finding it noteworthy that all of the consistently high contributors thus far are slinging little at other players.

You seemed to sling some stuff at DDL, then at Epi; while I see you were fishing for responses, surely your reads must be more sophisticated than the aforementioned categories?

i dig it. MP knows that my tendency with reads is to provide them in great detail to the point that everyone else in the game hates me and puts me on ignore. as you all can see now. to this point i hadn't started that effort, so it makes sense that MP would prod me towards it. because anyone that knows JJJ would rightly suspect him if he hasn't given meaningful reads.

Things aren't looking good for MP.

How?

Like every other Day 1? What a surprise.

I noticed you were responding to people in rapid succession. I've been wanting to test this with you when we were both online at the same time. So I posted what I did to see how long it would take you to respond to me.

It took you almost twenty minutes.

And no, you haven't commented on my DDL suspicion. You talked about DDL. But not my points against him. Tsk tsk.

Why did it take you twenty minutes to get back to me when I threw a curveball at you?

Were you making a sandwich? Taking a shit? We're all friends here.

Why did it take me twenty minutes? I've been talking with Annie, eating dinner, and "working" on SAS code.

I didn't realize you wanted to start a real time discussion.

there is absolutely nothing suspicious about this. and it would seem to me that people who are making accusations of MP based upon this timeline require his explanation to be a blatant lie for their accusations to be valid. and on that front, i find the entire conversation completely nonsensical. i'll take MP's side in this discussion every time.

You act as though I haven't been defending him constantly.

this drew the ire of Epignosis and sanmateo. i don't think it's a problem. for those missing the context: this was MP's response to me erroneously claiming i was DDL's biggest defender in the thread. i had forgotten MP's involvement in the same work. MP said this in the midst of a heated interrogation from essentially everyone else in the thread while he was clearly quite frustrated. he snapped at me promptly (no offense taken ).

overall i still think he's more town than mafia. basically i seem to be reading everyone differently from most of you.

[Turnip Head]

If you read through Golden's in-topic filter, his first 15 posts are all fluff or discussion about game mechanics. In some of these posts he laments the fact that the thread is moving so quickly, even though all he's posted himself up to this point is fluff and chatter.

Here's his first post of game related content:

I've skimmed through. Probably a lot of content I need to sort out in terms of who has post what.

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

First post by Golden that pinged me. DDL was getting heat at the time, and the rest were certainly questioned, but there was no reason for Golden to assume there was a drive-by lynch for one of them on the horizon. Not until he said this, anyway:

What I'd like to see now? A bit less of the same few guys talking around each other and a bit more of everyone else giving opinions on the four of them. At least then we have a bigger pool of people to consider their opinions.

Translation: Stop talking big talkers, and let the unwitting commonfolk round you up for the slaughter. I do feel there's a mighty big contradiction here from Golden, and these are two portions of the same post, so maybe he can set straight his intentions for me.
______________________

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

care to elaborate? is this a meta-based read?

As far as I'm aware, TH and I have played exactly one game together, where we were indy teammates. Can't be meta based.

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

I really am simply having trouble keeping up while being extremely busy doing many things. I have had long days and not many nights at home this week. Boss resigned, more work. Pastor resigned, more preaching. Wife becomes a manager, has to deal with her first employee warning, needs some of my time and attention, plus yesterday I spent more of my time finalising my BSG game to submit in the poll than reading the game. You'll see me get more 'golden-like' (by which I assume he means fierce) when I see something I think looks bad.

Here, Golden admits that RL is affecting his play, while simultaneously NOT admitting that his play here is "off-meta". I find that contradiction to be impossible unless there's a lie in here somewhere. And in any case, he was apologizing for something I hadn't really accused him of yet. I didn't accuse him of anything where providing a RL schedule would be a valid excuse. In fact, I didn't accuse him anything really, did I? But he still felt the need to explain himself in this way.
_________________________
Here's Golden's MP-length explanation for how he usually starts games by discussing Day 0 topics:

So, TH's potential experience with me amounts to exactly two games. One in which he did not play and one in which he did. For whatever reason, despite us both having played with many other people on this site, TH and I had never had our mafia careers intersect until I returned from a long mafia break a few months ago.

The first game I played was Roger Rabbit. TH did not play. He did read along with it to some extent. That game had a day zero poll with a full story description that could potentially aid you in figuring out which way to vote. I put a whole lot of analysis in to that poll and came up with one option that I thought was the weakest choice, and I said so. Aces came in out of nowhere and voted for the option I had declared weakest. That option ended up winning. I pursued Aces after that, and ended up believing he was bad and hounding him on day one. Aces was lynched, and was bad.

Keeler mafia. TH and I were indy teammates. Day 0 poll again, this time you got items you voted for. I noted Bullzeye had opted for key and epignosis for safe. I also found epi's thread content deliberately obtuse. I called them both out as bad on day one. Both were bad. I also called out Dom for getting emotional. I was wrong about Dom (his play style had changed significantly in three years to what I remembered).

Common themes from those two games:

One - Poll 0 gave me a starting place for a genuine read. I don't know what to take out of day zero poll this time, especially since most votes came in before the role reshuffle.
Two - I was not going after people hard just because "thats golden". I went after them hard because I had a specific reason I thought they were bad. For the most part, I got them right. I'm not going to go hard after people just because thats what I am supposed to look like when I'm civ. I'm waiting to see something I think is bad to go after.

I believe that this is a reason you started strong in those two games Golden. I also believe it's the exact same thing you would do to start strong if you were bad.

My question is, why did Golden use this big wall of text with explicitly stated examples to explain such a simple thing about his gameplay? Especially when he complains about useless wall of texts here:

No, I didn't find a lot to be suspicious of in the walls of text. Honestly I find this game exhausting for how little content there is in the walls of text, and anything I might have found had already been talked out ad nauseum. Each to their own methods - I'm not finding others suspicious just because of their play style. If you don't like the way I play, too bad. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

Your move, Golden

[Turnip Head]

Yeah you're right, I forgot I didn't quote it. It's the post directly above that one, which is probably why I didn't quote.

you still say you aren't playing to your meta, i find that sus to say.

but tbh i feel like i'm missing out a lot on these discussions about your meta and golden's meta because i dont know you 2 at all

I'm not going to pretend I was playing like I always do, when I clearly wasn't. And it was immediately obvious to everyone who's played here regularly that I wasn't acting like normal TH. MM brought it up in relation to a point I was making about Golden, so I needed to address it. Check out the context

[Marmot]

Thanks JaggedJimmyJay, I've been waiting all day for my ISO.

The reason those posts were so big was because I like to catch up on a lot of missed content as if I'm playing in real time, so I copy quotes and respond in big chunks. When I called sanmateo scum, I'm pretty sure I inserted the wrong quote there, because I noticed that I had already responded to the exact same quote in that post. Also, I don't like to use the word scum, so I was probably being light-hearted with that accusation anyway.

[Marmot]

Yeah you're right, I forgot I didn't quote it. It's the post directly above that one, which is probably why I didn't quote.

you still say you aren't playing to your meta, i find that sus to say.

but tbh i feel like i'm missing out a lot on these discussions about your meta and golden's meta because i dont know you 2 at all

I'm not going to pretend I was playing like I always do, when I clearly wasn't. And it was immediately obvious to everyone who's played here regularly that I wasn't acting like normal TH. MM brought it up in relation to a point I was making about Golden, so I needed to address it. Check out the context

To be fair, you often like to respond to posts quickly without quotes. I don't think you should be expecting others to bring the context along for the ride, though I agree that they should definitely read it. A post without quotes should not be read in a vacuum.

[Marmot]

I want to vote either DDL or MP at this juncture.

However, I would like to know

what the other players are thinking about these two.

I think you shanked MP.

I actually think he could be bad, but I'm not going to vote for him after that. I think I'll likely vote for you, your attitude reminds me a lot of the way you took to Blindfaeth in keeler.

RL stuff should be off limits as far as gameplay goes.

It's not like Epignosis was in MovingPictures07's kitchen. Epignosis asked MovingPictures07 what he was doing, and MovingPictures07 responded with a pretty detailed explanation.

I don't consider it foul play. Not if both parties wanted to get themselves involved in the discussion. If MovingPictures07 felt that it should be off-limits, he should have said so.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thanks JaggedJimmyJay, I've been waiting all day for my ISO.

The reason those posts were so big was because I like to catch up on a lot of missed content as if I'm playing in real time, so I copy quotes and respond in big chunks. When I called sanmateo scum, I'm pretty sure I inserted the wrong quote there, because I noticed that I had already responded to the exact same quote in that post. Also, I don't like to use the word scum, so I was probably being light-hearted with that accusation anyway.

i honestly figured it was a quote flub re: sanmateo. so good answer. also the day i actually complain about someone making big posts is the day i get punched in the face.

[Marmot]

Thanks JaggedJimmyJay, I've been waiting all day for my ISO.

The reason those posts were so big was because I like to catch up on a lot of missed content as if I'm playing in real time, so I copy quotes and respond in big chunks. When I called sanmateo scum, I'm pretty sure I inserted the wrong quote there, because I noticed that I had already responded to the exact same quote in that post. Also, I don't like to use the word scum, so I was probably being light-hearted with that accusation anyway.

i honestly figured it was a quote flub re: sanmateo. so good answer. also the day i actually complain about someone making big posts is the day i get punched in the face.

My vote has been cast, so a punch will have to do.

[Golden]

Responses in pink

If you read through Golden's in-topic filter, his first 15 posts are all fluff or discussion about game mechanics. In some of these posts he laments the fact that the thread is moving so quickly, even though all he's posted himself up to this point is fluff and chatter.

Here's his first post of game related content:

I've skimmed through. Probably a lot of content I need to sort out in terms of who has post what.

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

First post by Golden that pinged me. DDL was getting heat at the time, and the rest were certainly questioned, but there was no reason for Golden to assume there was a drive-by lynch for one of them on the horizon. Not until he said this, anyway:

What I'd like to see now? A bit less of the same few guys talking around each other and a bit more of everyone else giving opinions on the four of them. At least then we have a bigger pool of people to consider their opinions.

Translation: Stop talking big talkers, and let the unwitting commonfolk round you up for the slaughter. I do feel there's a mighty big contradiction here from Golden, and these are two portions of the same post, so maybe he can set straight his intentions for me.

I already have provided in depth clarification, I believe it was in response to JJJ, for anyone who wants to read my filter. For those who don't want to, it was very simple. I wanted to head it off and discourage it from happening. TH, do you disagree that it is exactly what does happen here? Putting aside the way that my post is not at all hard to paint in a baddie light, what is your opinion on the substantive point I made in that post? I think that post from me was the start of bringing to light our cultural differences as to dead civilians winning/not winning, and actually understanding why that first portion of time was dominated by newbies, as well.
______________________

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

care to elaborate? is this a meta-based read?

As far as I'm aware, TH and I have played exactly one game together, where we were indy teammates. Can't be meta based.

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

I really am simply having trouble keeping up while being extremely busy doing many things. I have had long days and not many nights at home this week. Boss resigned, more work. Pastor resigned, more preaching. Wife becomes a manager, has to deal with her first employee warning, needs some of my time and attention, plus yesterday I spent more of my time finalising my BSG game to submit in the poll than reading the game. You'll see me get more 'golden-like' (by which I assume he means fierce) when I see something I think looks bad.

Here, Golden admits that RL is affecting his play, while simultaneously NOT admitting that his play here is "off-meta". I find that contradiction to be impossible unless there's a lie in here somewhere. And in any case, he was apologizing for something I hadn't really accused him of yet. I didn't accuse him of anything where providing a RL schedule would be a valid excuse. In fact, I didn't accuse him anything really, did I? But he still felt the need to explain himself in this way.

Why is there any inherent contradiction there? RL does not make it my baddie meta. The fact that I am busy in real life cannot possibly put me off-meta. When I am civ, the way I act is part of my civilian meta, no matter how busy I am. I do not think being busy in RL and thus having less time to keep up and post makes any impact on the kinds of things I pick up on and choose to pursue. The point here is that you do not know my meta. You stated you felt like I was trying to hide me looking different, and you provided absolutely no context as to why you saw me as different. I felt the best approach was to be forthright about any possible explanation for it - both RL, and meta-based - so that you could judge whether or not that accounted for your feeling and others could judge whether or not to follow you.
_________________________
Here's Golden's MP-length explanation for how he usually starts games by discussing Day 0 topics:

So, TH's potential experience with me amounts to exactly two games. One in which he did not play and one in which he did. For whatever reason, despite us both having played with many other people on this site, TH and I had never had our mafia careers intersect until I returned from a long mafia break a few months ago.

The first game I played was Roger Rabbit. TH did not play. He did read along with it to some extent. That game had a day zero poll with a full story description that could potentially aid you in figuring out which way to vote. I put a whole lot of analysis in to that poll and came up with one option that I thought was the weakest choice, and I said so. Aces came in out of nowhere and voted for the option I had declared weakest. That option ended up winning. I pursued Aces after that, and ended up believing he was bad and hounding him on day one. Aces was lynched, and was bad.

Keeler mafia. TH and I were indy teammates. Day 0 poll again, this time you got items you voted for. I noted Bullzeye had opted for key and epignosis for safe. I also found epi's thread content deliberately obtuse. I called them both out as bad on day one. Both were bad. I also called out Dom for getting emotional. I was wrong about Dom (his play style had changed significantly in three years to what I remembered).

Common themes from those two games:

One - Poll 0 gave me a starting place for a genuine read. I don't know what to take out of day zero poll this time, especially since most votes came in before the role reshuffle.
Two - I was not going after people hard just because "thats golden". I went after them hard because I had a specific reason I thought they were bad. For the most part, I got them right. I'm not going to go hard after people just because thats what I am supposed to look like when I'm civ. I'm waiting to see something I think is bad to go after.

I believe that this is a reason you started strong in those two games Golden. I also believe it's the exact same thing you would do to start strong if you were bad.

My question is, why did Golden use this big wall of text with explicitly stated examples to explain such a simple thing about his gameplay? Especially when he complains about useless wall of texts here:

One post does not a wall of text make. But in any event, if you think I would have started off the same way in those two games if I was bad, then how can you possibly defend your vote for me for being 'un-golden-like'?

No, I didn't find a lot to be suspicious of in the walls of text. Honestly I find this game exhausting for how little content there is in the walls of text, and anything I might have found had already been talked out ad nauseum. Each to their own methods - I'm not finding others suspicious just because of their play style. If you don't like the way I play, too bad. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

Your move, Golden

[Marmot]

Hi TinyBubbles. If you are catching up now, feel free to post your thoughts as you go. We'd much rather hear what you have to think than not hear anything from you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - Roxy

I do not think your theory about high posters will work here. We have our teasured high posting players who post the same irregardless of alignment.

I often think high posters are baddies trying to control the thread - its a fine line. But I wil never think a high poster has less to hide - been burned by too many high posters lol

Catching up now- I am a few pages behind.

I will add I get emotional irregardless of alignment when wagon'ed or under pressure - Sockadoodle is right.

i might have a soft spot for a little early tinfoiling about loudmouths like me.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 59#p143159 - Big post

there are a few stances to be found in here, but they're not expressed with clarity. she seems to be lending some support to MP and G-Man. her suspicion of TH is more readily apparent at least.

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

I for one cannot wait for this elaboration.
I feel the opposite about Golden.

this might be significant in that it's perhaps the strongest support lent to Golden so far in this game (semantically, i mean). most others who has spoken at all positively of him including myself have used more controlled language like "slight town read" or some such. but without an explanation it's just a stance in a vacuum so i still can't do much with it.

overall Roxy has started slowly. i am not alarmed by anything in this post history much, but there's not enough to make me feel good about her either. nullish read.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Day 1 ISO - sanmateo

I think it's very likely that it's true, and that it could just be a different way of thinking. I've been wrong about players because I didn't agree with their way of hinking so I framed them as scum, when the truth was that they were just different from me.

But I also see the possibility of a scum slip. For example, he might have tried to start a conversation just to make it look like he's talking, and when someone (me) tried to question what he said, he backed down because he isn't really interested in discussing.

sloonei's phrasing did caught my eye but it seems odd that you are going ahead and calling that a possible* scumslip when you just agreed with his method of "want[ing] to make people talk to see if can get someone knocked out of their confort zone"

*possibility of but still. safe-word, bad, scumtell

Not much, considering we don't know anyone's previous role. Like I said, I was mostly throwing a theory on the wall to see how people would react.

I just found the timing interesting. The host sent the new roles, and suddenly Jay was like "can I start playing seriously on day 0"?

good thinking, can we post our previous roles or would that be game-breaking? do we even know if there was any alignment changes?

the defining characteristic of sanmateo's earliest play was his aggression against DDL. and he started with that in his very first post of Day 1. so if it's mafia tunneling, then it has been pointed and bold.

This usually gets me in danger of being lynched on D1, though.

i think townies (except for new-ish players) are most likely to assert whatever their thoughts may be more directly while scum tries to gauge the reactions of others before going after a player. and you have been very tentative in your posts, thats what i was referring to.[/quote]

here sanmateo sort of describes exactly what i'm talking about. he wasn't at all tentative about his aggression against DDL, and i think that reflects well upon him no matter how DDL flips. given my experience with sanmateo, i don't know if i view him as a player who would decide to take on a deliberate strategy to attack one guy early and often all day long. and i know he can be hard to shake from his suspicions when he is a townie.

i think ddl did a lot of scummy shit but at this point im most likely gonna vote for mp07 or th (unexplained vote + "im playing unlike me on purpose"). although mm did the unexplained vote too but they have been more active. i'm looking at golden and wondering if someone's bussing him but i'm not gonna vote for them based on that, i just dont think they're being particularly scummy and its really odd that they are the one player with votes on them rn

or i might just vote ddl out of sheer spite, who knows?

your eventual choice will likely speak volumes. two of your candidates are town reads for me, so

i consider sanmateo to be one of RYM's best townies. he has a great nose for bullshit. with that in mind i don't find myself feeling as confident about his innocence as i would like. i read him slightly more town than mafia.

[Sloonei]

Sloonei -- (previously Very slight civilian read) -- He has dropped due to an inability to really get the ball rolling on suspects and contribute more than uncertain statements. What say you, Sloonei?

I say this observation may appear fairly accurate, though my ball is assuredly rolling. I make no objection to this assessment of me, but I do object to my location within your rainbow. It seems to suggest that I am (or was at the time of this post) your strongest scum read. Why? I've not offered any strong reads yet but that's been because I've not had a chance to establish any. I have a hard time seeing how I could have been anyone's top suspect at any point in this game so far, to be completely honest. Correct me if I am mistaken about your rainbow's layout here.

I just spent a very very long day at work and am catching up on everything now. I will likely have things to say.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i don't think anyone has asked... are no lynches a thing here?

because if they are they're the devil.

[Turnip Head]

I actually like most of your responses, Golden. Yes, I do agree that a newbie could likely get lynched on Day 1 in this game, not because of any precedent for lynching new players, but a precedent for lynching talkative ones. I'm reading more into it than what you're saying though because of the second part of your post, where you ask for everyone's opinions on those 4 specifically. I realized your next set of suspicions/reads in your next several posts only contained the new players, and it felt like you were trying to keep the focus on them even as you defended them. It felt a little manipulative and possibly calculated.

Also, nitpick:

Responses in pink

I believe that this is a reason you started strong in those two games Golden. I also believe it's the exact same thing you would do to start strong if you were bad.

My question is, why did Golden use this big wall of text with explicitly stated examples to explain such a simple thing about his gameplay? Especially when he complains about useless wall of texts here:

One post does not a wall of text make. But in any event, if you think I would have started off the same way in those two games if I was bad, then how can you possibly defend your vote for me for being 'un-golden-like'?

Because the game DIDN'T start like that. The Day 0 poll was meaningless. You have nothing to work with either way.

[Golden]

If MovingPictures07 felt that it should be off-limits, he should have said so.

I'm just frustrated with ridiculata contributing to lynches of people like MP and you for that matter. I think Epi knows better than to push the buttons he pushed right then. As far as "what academic paper are you reading" goes... it's just an unhelpful question and exactly what I'm calling out by the term 'wall of text'.

Perhaps I don't really mean off-limits off-limits. But I think it was calculated to send MP to the brink, and I don't like the vibe of that calculation.

[Sloonei]

I can't decide if I find Tiny Bubbles' lurking to be scummy or not. They've admitted to being nervous about saying anything at all, which would ordinarily would look very scummy but I am not familiar with them as a player or the Mafia Culture they come from. That said, regardless of anything that level of intense lurking is the easiest way for scum to hide without drawing any attention to themselves.

I played in TinyBubbles first game. It was very quiet all up, had 12 players, and TinyBubbles was one of the quietest of all. It was also on a froum completely new to mafia where nearly half the players hadn't played before. She was civilian. One game is hardly a representative sample, but I'm definitely not seeing her lurking as a reason to think she is bad.

Fair deal, but this is no reason to think she is good either. I'd like to hear something from the Bubbles herself, whenever she may. Until then she's as neutral a read as there can be.

[Turnip Head]

i don't think anyone has asked... are no lynches a thing here?

because if they are they're the devil.

What do we look like to you, a bunch of crybaby pussyfooters? Ain't nobody got time for that. We have permanent votes for goodness' sake.

Lynch-stops as a role power is a thing, though.

[Marmot]

i don't think anyone has asked... are no lynches a thing here?

because if they are they're the devil.

Voting "No Lynch" is not an option here.

And if you do not vote in the poll, hosts often have a penalty for missing it (unless of course you are forced by a power beyond your control to withhold your vote).



So, I hope that answers your question.

[Golden]

Because the game DIDN'T start like that. The Day 0 poll was meaningless. You have nothing to work with either way.

Exactly. And therein you have my entire point about why I look different this game to the two you've seen me play before.

So, why does that make me bad enough to vote for?

And, I asked everyone (including me) to come in and give reads of those new players, because I thought it would mean EVERYONE could start to get reads on everyone. It was calculated. But I did already explain that.

linki - sloonei, no. I don't assume she is good. I just don't think her lurking can be considered indicative of her being bad, which is after all expressly what you were wondering about...

linki - adding to MM, sometimes lynches can end in no lynch if there is a tie (depending on host rules) or if someone has lynch protection.

[Black Rock]

I want to vote either DDL or MP at this juncture.

However, I would like to know

what the other players are thinking about these two.

I think you shanked MP.

I actually think he could be bad, but I'm not going to vote for him after that. I think I'll likely vote for you, your attitude reminds me a lot of the way you took to Blindfaeth in keeler.

RL stuff should be off limits as far as gameplay goes.

I don't understand. You think MP is bad but won't vote for him because Epi called him a liar?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - Sloonei

i recently rated Sloonei as the best townie on RYM. so there are a few things i look for with him.

Sloonei, could you describe the strategy you hoped to develop with the approach you just explained to DDLuffy? when you say "get things rolling", what shape did you envision responses to your assertion taking? do you feel you've lost much of the potential in that strategy by immediately explaining it thusly when prompted by DDLuffy (visibly to everyone else)?

I suppose I was just anxious to start playing here and wanted to assert myself into the game as quickly as possible. First impressions are nice. I imagined the responses to begin some form of a discussion about the game and whatever Mafia Philosophies people might want to express. I have not lost any potential in the strategy, as my goal was simply to open up a game-related discussion, and look at these posts!

this is one of them. he understands the value of immediate discussion and should be expected as a townie to try his best to generate it. and i think his methods here were believably within his typical style. he is rarely one to make scathing accusations early in a game, but he'll poke people and encourage responses. he knows how to get the game started and that's why i deliberately asked him about his approach.

I think you all (you, MP, and Jay and some other guy whose name I forgot) look like town. In other words, I also have no scumreads.

Thus, if I had to vote now, I'd vote for some of the others, despite the fact I have nearly zero data on any of them. It's a matter of probability, really.

Thank god I don't have to vote now, so I hope the others come and talk so I get more vote candidates.

Why do you feel comfortable enough to say that we're all town reads?

this is also very Sloonei. he develops reads at his own pace very patiently, and when other players take surprising stances early in a game he is certain to ask for an explanation.

I find it notable that you seem to be aggressively questioning DDL for his inability to commit to reads, and thereafter for a comment saying that active posters all "look like town", yet you have not issued an opinion on anyone, including DDL, yourself.

Hesitant?

Yes, that is one way to describe me right now.

MY BOY. Sloonei is very self-aware, both of his style and how other players are likely to interpret it. he is a hesitant player just like he said here, and he doesn't care who knows it. he is confident in his mafia skill set and will play the game his way because it has been successful for him before.

It's not that high posters "have less to hide", it's that people should have less room to hide if they're being forced to talk and answer questions they don't want to answer.

droppin' truth bombs

before i leave for the day i'll offer one slight warning about JJJ. He is fully capable of pulling off a "supertown" effort as scum. That's not to say I think he is scum right now, but hid play style is identifal regardless of his alignment and it can be dangerous to write him off because of his big walls of analysis and all-encompassing player interaction.
If he's town he's as productive as anyone, of course. I'm just saying we need to keep an eye on him moving forward and not all give him a free pass.

i think this post has happened in every game Sloonei and i have played together since like 2012 (regardless of both of our alignments).

overall i think he looks fine. i know his game better than any other player here and i am not worried yet. i would like more reads, but i know he'll do his thing. more town than mafia.

[Marmot]

If MovingPictures07 felt that it should be off-limits, he should have said so.

I'm just frustrated with ridiculata contributing to lynches of people like MP and you for that matter. I think Epi knows better than to push the buttons he pushed right then. As far as "what academic paper are you reading" goes... it's just an unhelpful question and exactly what I'm calling out by the term 'wall of text'.

Perhaps I don't really mean off-limits off-limits. But I think it was calculated to send MP to the brink, and I don't like the vibe of that calculation.

You are right about the ridiculata. I am a constant victim of it, not that I always help myself. But sometimes, to me, having fun is more important than winning, and I play as such. As such, I love taking risks. It's just mafia, what do I have to lose?

But MovingPictures07 walked himself right into this. I don't think Epignosis intended to dissect MovingPictures07's dinner ritual, but MovingPictures07 allowed for it to be a topic of discussion.

[Turnip Head]

So, why does that make me bad enough to vote for?

Weird way to phrase the question but anyways...

It doesn't make you bad enough to vote for. It just makes you enough to vote for on Day 1 to get some reactions. I think we've gotten a few, haven't we?

If you had to vote right now for the person you most think is bad, who would you vote for?

[Golden]

So, why does that make me bad enough to vote for?

Weird way to phrase the question but anyways...

It doesn't make you bad enough to vote for. It just makes you enough to vote for on Day 1 to get some reactions. I think we've gotten a few, haven't we?

If you had to vote right now for the person you most think is bad, who would you vote for?

Epignosis. He reminds me of Keeler Epi, and that's the only person I can fit plum into a previous experience of them being bad.

It's somewhat contradictory, but I am also still somewhat suspicious of MP. I definitely think that conflict could be civ/bad one way or the other.

You're not off the hook, though, TH. Your vote for me was a bold move for a baddie, but there are better ways to get conversation started than to vote for someone you know is an effective civilian. That's the kind of move that, if you are bad, can fall into your lap either way.