Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

#1301

i think you may have a problem, MP.

#1302

Seriously, I need to be committed. Where's the asylum?

#1303

Oh, wait, here it is.

#1304

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Bubbles vote was fishy af, felt like she isn't even trying.

"hey I'm a noob and I dont know how to play so imma drop a vote on someone everyone is suspecting and check out for the phase cya".

A lot of her posts feel like honest inexperience though.

i find myself wondering about your effort level too, DDL. you started the game with a purpose, and even though it brought you some heat you seemed content to post at a torrent pace and stay involved. but over the last couple real-time days, your level of activity has waned directly relative to a decrease in pressure on you.

why do you suppose that is?

#1305

MovingPictures07 wrote:Oh, wait, here it is.

#1306

Hey Vompatti:

since it's completely impossible to get any read on you due to Dom's absence, we need to find a way to change that. i know the thread to this point has inflated quite a lot and it's a lot to ask you to read 1300+ posts to get up to date. if you mean to do that, then by all means do so and we are all grateful. but if not, here's an alternative for you to consider:

you could pick any player in the game, perhaps me if you want, and accuse the crap out of 'em. it doesn't even have to reflect your true perspective. but if you're nasty enough, it's sure to promote responses -- both from that player and others. and your behavior in that exchange should be decently readable, i hope. whaddya think?

if not, sure cool. i just hate to have you as a total blank spot in my reads m8.

#1307

i'm not nearly as into prog rock and related genres as i once was, but i like to fit in. Camel is probably my favorite true prog band, so here's my favorite Camel track:

and, well... the song isn't even prog. but the band used to be! so neat!

#1308

@MP, I think Elo has reacted to the suspicion of her just as emotionally as you have. She sees it her way, and her way is the right way, probably because she's civ. I actually think she'd be more inclined to explain her vote if she were bad, because she would feel like she needs a good explanation.

Fact is, regardless of Elo's own defense, her reads progression of both you AND Golden seems organic to me. She seemed to carefully considerate in her read of you in particular, MP. I don't know if you read it that way, but that's how I read it, and I don't know that a baddie-Elo would go to such lengths and get involved in the argument with you. She cites my case on Golden as a reason to vote for him, and we can debate the merits of her voting based on that, but she's far from the only person in this game to make a change in their read, and that's something civvies tend to do more often than baddies anyways.

So you could say I'm reading her the exact opposite way that you are.

#1309

who has your attention for the wrong reasons, TH?

#1310

Turnip Head wrote:@MP, I think Elo has reacted to the suspicion of her just as emotionally as you have. She sees it her way, and her way is the right way, probably because she's civ. I actually think she'd be more inclined to explain her vote if she were bad, because she would feel like she needs a good explanation.

Fact is, regardless of Elo's own defense, her reads progression of both you AND Golden seems organic to me. She seemed to carefully considerate in her read of you in particular, MP. I don't know if you read it that way, but that's how I read it, and I don't know that a baddie-Elo would go to such lengths and get involved in the argument with you. She cites my case on Golden as a reason to vote for him, and we can debate the merits of her voting based on that, but she's far from the only person in this game to make a change in their read, and that's something civvies tend to do more often than baddies anyways.

So you could say I'm reading her the exact opposite way that you are.

Well, I suppose that's possible; if you are correct and I am incorrect, then clearly I've exercised tunnel vision incorrectly AGAIN.

I can see why you think that, but I suppose I still feel strongly about my perception of the events.

#1311

Regardless, I can admit that I'm having trouble understanding Elo's POV completely if she's a civilian. If she is, then colored me SURPRISED AS A FUCKING RAINBOW because I think that occam's razor suggests that she can't keep things straight because she is fabricating them.

Now, to go back to working on my Rainbow List.

#1312

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:who has your attention for the wrong reasons, TH?

I think we would be worse off if I shared that at this time, Jay.

#1313

MovingPictures07 wrote:Regardless, I can admit that I'm having trouble understanding Elo's POV completely if she's a civilian. If she is, then colored me SURPRISED AS A FUCKING RAINBOW because I think that occam's razor suggests that she can't keep things straight because she is fabricating them.

Now, to go back to working on my Rainbow List.

truth be told, i'm not really a proponent of Occam's Razor being a reliable logical foundation for anything. if i may propose an alternative reason for Elo's struggle to keep things straight (as you put it):

she has been subject to an energized and perhaps emotional assault from a consistent frustrating source -- you. even innocent suspects sometimes struggle to tell their story when Bad Cop is interrogating them through barred teeth, always moments away from leaping over the table and tackling them to the floor.

#1314

Turnip Head wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:who has your attention for the wrong reasons, TH?
I think we would be worse off if I shared that at this time, Jay.

that would be consistent with the styles i've seen in this unique rule environment so far. i don't suspect you really so i won't press the issue now. but the sand is dribbling down the hourglass.

#1315

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Regardless, I can admit that I'm having trouble understanding Elo's POV completely if she's a civilian. If she is, then colored me SURPRISED AS A FUCKING RAINBOW because I think that occam's razor suggests that she can't keep things straight because she is fabricating them.

Now, to go back to working on my Rainbow List.
truth be told, i'm not really a proponent of Occam's Razor being a reliable logical foundation for anything. if i may propose an alternative reason for Elo's struggle to keep things straight (as you put it):

she has been subject to an energized and perhaps emotional assault from a consistent frustrating source -- you. even innocent suspects sometimes struggle to tell their story when Bad Cop is interrogating them through barred teeth, always moments away from leaping over the table and tackling them to the floor.

I suppose that's possible, but she made inconsistencies before I interrogated her at all, such as voting for someone she was leaning civ on with no explanation.

#1316

MovingPictures07 wrote:I suppose that's possible, but she made inconsistencies before I interrogated her at all, such as voting for someone she was leaning civ on with no explanation.

primarily her perspective of Golden, i assume? that has been a point of suspicion for me too. however, i don't think it's entirely impossible for a townie to have the change of perspective that she espoused about him on Day 1. it can happen, and i've even done it myself. it demands explanation, and while that took far too long to come, it has come. and there is some material in her posts to imply a change before the vote -- namely her support of TH's case and assertion that he "seemed different".

what about you, MP -- did you think Golden was off-meta on Day 1?

#1317

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I suppose that's possible, but she made inconsistencies before I interrogated her at all, such as voting for someone she was leaning civ on with no explanation.
primarily her perspective of Golden, i assume? that has been a point of suspicion for me too. however, i don't think it's entirely impossible for a townie to have the change of perspective that she espoused about him on Day 1. it can happen, and i've even done it myself. it demands explanation, and while that took far too long to come, it has come. and there is some material in her posts to imply a change before the vote -- namely her support of TH's case and assertion that he "seemed different".

what about you, MP -- did you think Golden was off-meta on Day 1?

I did, initially, and then he started seeming like "normal Golden" to me, but it was only around the time he had 5 votes.

#1318

To be fair, my view of him was way too harsh, and I did exactly to him what people do to me all of the time; whenever he isn't putting in 110%, he seems "weird" or though he's "hiding something", and it wasn't until people bandwagoned onto him and he started sounding genuine for me to fully realize that.

#1319

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:since it's completely impossible to get any read on you due to Dom's absence, we need to find a way to change that. i know the thread to this point has inflated quite a lot and it's a lot to ask you to read 1300+ posts to get up to date. if you mean to do that, then by all means do so and we are all grateful. but if not, here's an alternative for you to consider:

Some say that inflation is bad for the economy.

#1320

Jay, I'm thinking on my reads, and I'm curious: What do you think of sanmateo? He is my biggest town read last I updated the list, but wanted to hear what you think. Since he hosted #84, I didn't get to play with him at RYM recently.

#1321

MP: do you think a fair comparison can be drawn between these two things:

Epignosis goes hard after MP, thus drawing emotional responses from MP which increase people's suspicion of MP

MP goes hard after Elo, thus drawing emotional responses from Elo which increase people's suspicion of Elo

#1322

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:truth be told, i'm not really a proponent of Occam's Razor being a reliable logical foundation for anything. if i may propose an alternative reason for Elo's struggle to keep things straight (as you put it):

she has been subject to an energized and perhaps emotional assault from a consistent frustrating source -- you. even innocent suspects sometimes struggle to tell their story when Bad Cop is interrogating them through barred teeth, always moments away from leaping over the table and tackling them to the floor.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MP: do you think a fair comparison can be drawn between these two things:

Epignosis goes hard after MP, thus drawing emotional responses from MP which increase people's suspicion of MP

MP goes hard after Elo, thus drawing emotional responses from Elo which increase people's suspicion of Elo

This sums up how I'm feeling about Elo right now. Thanks Jay.

#1323

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MP: do you think a fair comparison can be drawn between these two things:

Epignosis goes hard after MP, thus drawing emotional responses from MP which increase people's suspicion of MP

MP goes hard after Elo, thus drawing emotional responses from Elo which increase people's suspicion of Elo

No, I do not.

I'm questioning Elo on behavior she has exhibited in this game. Epi aggressively pursued something that did not have to do with a sketchy vote I made. So there's that.

Regarding the intensity with which we are pursuing suspects, possibly. Yes, I recognize I have gone at her in a passionate fashion, but I think she's making me appear more emotional than I really am (except when I blew up on her yesterday, which I apologized for profusely, since it was over the line) -- either that or I don't recognize how emotional I'm coming across in my posts and it's unintentional.

#1324

Well, if that's the case, then I suppose I should truly let the Elo thing go completely and let you folks do whatever. I've voiced my thoughts ad nauseum.

#1325

I think she would have played that whole situation more timidly if she were bad, tbh. Do you not think that, MP?

#1326

MovingPictures07 wrote:Jay, I'm thinking on my reads, and I'm curious: What do you think of sanmateo? He is my biggest town read last I updated the list, but wanted to hear what you think. Since he hosted #84, I didn't get to play with him at RYM recently.

he's a tougher read than i would like an RYM-mate to be. on RYM i think he is among the best townies who are still regular players, and usually i am a little better able to read that in his play than i have been in this game. he has a great nose for bullshit, and he is hard to shake from his suspicions. i guess those can be observed here perhaps in a couple instances:

~ he was anti-DDL for all of Day 1. ever since he turned against Elo he has stayed against her. and he has even held fast against you too, even though you're the biggest public foe of his other suspect (Elo). he doesn't tend to change his mind easily and that characteristic is apparent here.

~ his critiques of DDL were perhaps exemplary of that bullshit radar, even though i didn't agree with his read.

the concern for me is that his involvement has been a little inconsistent, and he has narrowed his focus to a small minority of the people playing. i would call him a slight town read at best.

#1327

Turnip Head wrote:I think she would have played that whole situation more timidly if she were bad, tbh. Do you not think that, MP?

What do you mean by timidly?

#1328

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Jay, I'm thinking on my reads, and I'm curious: What do you think of sanmateo? He is my biggest town read last I updated the list, but wanted to hear what you think. Since he hosted #84, I didn't get to play with him at RYM recently.
he's a tougher read than i would like an RYM-mate to be. on RYM i think he is among the best townies who are still regular players, and usually i am a little better able to read that in his play than i have been in this game. he has a great nose for bullshit, and he is hard to shake from his suspicions. i guess those can be observed here perhaps in a couple instances:

~ he was anti-DDL for all of Day 1. ever since he turned against Elo he has stayed against her. and he has even held fast against you too, even though you're the biggest public foe of his other suspect (Elo). he doesn't tend to change his mind easily and that characteristic is apparent here.

~ his critiques of DDL were perhaps exemplary of that bullshit radar, even though i didn't agree with his read.

the concern for me is that his involvement has been a little inconsistent, and he has narrowed his focus to a small minority of the people playing. i would call him a slight town read at best.

Fair enough, thank you, sir!

#1329

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I think she would have played that whole situation more timidly if she were bad, tbh. Do you not think that, MP?
What do you mean by timidly?

Like why even get in an argument with you if she's bad? Epi was gunning hard enough, she didn't need to get involved at all if she's bad. Look back at her thought process re: you. I think it shows that she was giving it fair consideration and wanted to talk to you in order to feel strongly about you.

#1330

MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MP: do you think a fair comparison can be drawn between these two things:

Epignosis goes hard after MP, thus drawing emotional responses from MP which increase people's suspicion of MP

MP goes hard after Elo, thus drawing emotional responses from Elo which increase people's suspicion of Elo
No, I do not.

I'm questioning Elo on behavior she has exhibited in this game. Epi aggressively pursued something that did not have to do with a sketchy vote I made. So there's that.

Regarding the intensity with which we are pursuing suspects, possibly. Yes, I recognize I have gone at her in a passionate fashion, but I think she's making me appear more emotional than I really am (except when I blew up on her yesterday, which I apologized for profusely, since it was over the line) -- either that or I don't recognize how emotional I'm coming across in my posts and it's unintentional.

note that i don't necessarily disagree with you re: Elo. i had her in my bad reads in both Day 1 rainbows of mine. i told her i would reconsider her position though and i am doing so now -- primarily by thoroughly assessing the perspective of her biggest accuser. if i perceive you to be tunneling, then that is going to make me hesitate about my own read. so i am gauging your mindset.

#1331

Turnip Head wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I think she would have played that whole situation more timidly if she were bad, tbh. Do you not think that, MP?
What do you mean by timidly?
Like why even get in an argument with you if she's bad? Epi was gunning hard enough, she didn't need to get involved at all if she's bad. Look back at her thought process re: you. I think it shows that she was giving it fair consideration and wanted to talk to you in order to feel strongly about you.

I don't know, I didn't think about it that way. I'll mull over that.

Do you think Epi was bad?

#1332

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I think she would have played that whole situation more timidly if she were bad, tbh. Do you not think that, MP?
What do you mean by timidly?
Like why even get in an argument with you if she's bad? Epi was gunning hard enough, she didn't need to get involved at all if she's bad. Look back at her thought process re: you. I think it shows that she was giving it fair consideration and wanted to talk to you in order to feel strongly about you.
I don't know, I didn't think about it that way. I'll mull over that.

Do you think Epi was bad?

I think he could have been. I had no strong read of him yet.

#1333

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MP: do you think a fair comparison can be drawn between these two things:

Epignosis goes hard after MP, thus drawing emotional responses from MP which increase people's suspicion of MP

MP goes hard after Elo, thus drawing emotional responses from Elo which increase people's suspicion of Elo
No, I do not.

I'm questioning Elo on behavior she has exhibited in this game. Epi aggressively pursued something that did not have to do with a sketchy vote I made. So there's that.

Regarding the intensity with which we are pursuing suspects, possibly. Yes, I recognize I have gone at her in a passionate fashion, but I think she's making me appear more emotional than I really am (except when I blew up on her yesterday, which I apologized for profusely, since it was over the line) -- either that or I don't recognize how emotional I'm coming across in my posts and it's unintentional.
note that i don't necessarily disagree with you re: Elo. i had her in my bad reads in both Day 1 rainbows of mine. i told her i would reconsider her position though and i am doing so now -- primarily by thoroughly assessing the perspective of her biggest accuser. if i perceive you to be tunneling, then that is going to make me hesitate about my own read. so i am gauging your mindset.

It's totally fine, ask away. I appreciate it, since being totally honest with myself, I often develop real problems with tunneling players. It's ironic because I get suspected and tunneled all the time by various players on this site due to various major gambits I've pulled off, and even in games (like this one) where I try to make as specific an attempt to NOT tunnel anyone, I nearly always inevitably end up doing it anyway -- and then in the few games I haven't, I've been accused of being too wishywashy and saying too many words without saying really anything, and getting lynched (see: Film Directors).

So I would definitely say that the biggest weakness in my game is tunneling. I struggle every game with trying to keep myself from tunneling without becoming incredibly wishywashy, often it's one extreme or the other for me, and I love talking out my suspicions in thread with others to attempt to alleviate it, but I often get paranoid and end up following my own reads anyway.

#1334

TH's point is an interesting one. since MP read Epignosis as mafia (so did i), then the following question must be asked:

did Elo join her mafia mate and spouse in a public crucifixion of MP? is that how baddies behave as a team on many Day 1s over the course of mafia history?

maybe. i don't know that i can recall an example at the moment though.

#1335

Like, even right now, I had a few instances where I kept wondering, why are TH and Jay trying to get the thread away from Elo, and I have to keep myself from developing fictional baddie teams of three or four even though I know from the rational side of me that it's completely absurd to say I know one person's alignment with certainty, let alone multiple. Hence why my game is characterized by wild shifts between "I AM CERTAIN" and "I really don't know".

#1336

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:TH's point is an interesting one. since MP read Epignosis as mafia (so did i), then the following question must be asked:

did Elo join her mafia mate and spouse in a public crucifixion of MP? is that how baddies behave as a team on many Day 1s over the course of mafia history?

maybe. i don't know that i can recall an example at the moment though.

Honestly it so rarely ever happens. That's why I pointed it out when you had them together on your reads list.

I think Epi would have encouraged Elo to do her own thing, FWIW.

#1337

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:TH's point is an interesting one. since MP read Epignosis as mafia (so did i), then the following question must be asked:

did Elo join her mafia mate and spouse in a public crucifixion of MP? is that how baddies behave as a team on many Day 1s over the course of mafia history?

maybe. i don't know that i can recall an example at the moment though.

That's a thought I had yesterday and I still believe it's true.

I think there was a very conscious baddie effort to not only take out Golden but to apply heavy heat in my direction.

#1338

Now you've got your tinfoil hat on.

#1339

MovingPictures07 wrote:Like, even right now, I had a few instances where I kept wondering, why are TH and Jay trying to get the thread away from Elo, and I have to keep myself from developing fictional baddie teams of three or four even though I know from the rational side of me that it's completely absurd to say I know one person's alignment with certainty, let alone multiple. Hence why my game is characterized by wild shifts between "I AM CERTAIN" and "I really don't know".

there's nothing wrong with having voices issuing you warnings from the back of your mind. that's mafia.

note though that we're not getting the thread away from Elo. we're literally talking about Elo and nobody else -- i was just thinking about how that bothered me.

#1340

But that may be paranoia, I don't know.

As to how baddies behave as a team, it really depends SO much, I'm not sure I have an answer to that question. I've seen baddie teams here who all distanced like NUTS, others who were totally blatantly connected, and everywhere in between, I'd say.

Linki:

Fair enough, yeah, I'm sure I do, but I also had my tinfoil hat on in the spectator chat in Game 3 when I said ad nauseum that I was 99% sure you were Seer and in many other games. Not only that, but I've been on enough baddie teams to know that coordinated efforts to lynch and apply heat on players happens all the time.

#1341

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Like, even right now, I had a few instances where I kept wondering, why are TH and Jay trying to get the thread away from Elo, and I have to keep myself from developing fictional baddie teams of three or four even though I know from the rational side of me that it's completely absurd to say I know one person's alignment with certainty, let alone multiple. Hence why my game is characterized by wild shifts between "I AM CERTAIN" and "I really don't know".
there's nothing wrong with having voices issuing you warnings from the back of your mind. that's mafia.

note though that we're not getting the thread away from Elo. we're literally talking about Elo and nobody else -- i was just thinking about how that bothered me.

Lmao, yeah, exactly.

#1342

That's exactly why I try to keep those thoughts to myself anymore, Jay. :P Other than that, I try to be as transparent (love me, MM?) as possible.

#1343

TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT TRANSPARENT

#1344

It's one of those words that loses meaning the more you say it. Kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen

#1345

Turnip Head wrote:It's one of those words that loses meaning the more you say it. Kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen

Why kitchen?

#1346

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:It's one of those words that loses meaning the more you say it. Kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen kitchen

Why kitchen?

Exactly.

#1347

See, this is why I love mafia.

#1348

If you couldn't tell, Turnip Head, I'm trying to break your record for most posts in a Syndicate game in Death Note.

I have roughly 700 posts to go.

#1349

Turnip Head wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:TH's point is an interesting one. since MP read Epignosis as mafia (so did i), then the following question must be asked:

did Elo join her mafia mate and spouse in a public crucifixion of MP? is that how baddies behave as a team on many Day 1s over the course of mafia history?

maybe. i don't know that i can recall an example at the moment though.
Honestly it so rarely ever happens. That's why I pointed it out when you had them together on your reads list.

I think Epi would have encouraged Elo to do her own thing, FWIW.

i am feeling a bit doubtful too. so let's examine all of the possibilities (excluding serial killer variables, meh):

BOTH MAFIA:

mafia Epignosis goes ham against MP, and mafia Elo joins the fun. bold maneuver, but not impossible. my instincts tell me a married couple wouldn't find that super entertaining though, and that they'd be more likely to do their own thing individually -- i say as a human being who has never been married ever.

EPI MAFIA, ELO TOWN:

Mafia Epignosis goes ham against MP, and town Elo thinks he's making sound arguments. so she gets involved with the discussion and says her piece. sounds plausible, though i don't see how a townie really buys any of Epi's points in that exchange.

EPI TOWN, ELO MAFIA:

Town Epi was employing an aggressive gambit to generate reads of MP and anyone else discussing the matter. Mafia Elo sees the opportunity to pile on and does so -- thereby linking her husband to her erroneously. sounds plausible, but also elaborate and thus far-fetched. and risky for a mafioso to link herself to someone so abrasive.

BOTH TOWN:

Epi was employing an aggressive gambit to generate reads of MP and anyone else discussing the matter. Town Elo either thinks he's making sound arguments or catches on to his ploy and plays along. this strikes me as the least sensible of the four really, both because Epi's points were never good enough to be believed and i don't know that anyone really dives into such a gambit at the risk of being heavily suspected for it.

given this, it seems decently likely to me that one of the spouses was bad. i dunno about both though.

#1350

Rezz rezz rezz rezz rezz rezz rezz rezz rezz rezz rezz

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

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2014 Sockys
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Miscellaneous

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