Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (End Game)

[Made]

Day 4, 81 pages. bruh.

[reywaS]

After I read Golden flipped neutral, I decided to take a little siesta from the game. I have 6 pages to catch up on, but I"m not going to post stream of conciousness style this time. I'll read everything and then post.

[reywaS]

I'll try to post by the AM.

[DharmaHelper]

Maybe I should do some ISO's or something.

[DrWilgy]

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?

Like I said before, I'm not sure that he was framed. There are a few roles with powers that could have led to epis death and those so adamant that golden killed epi didn't seem to be talking about/ taking those into consideration. Unless I missed it.

Ok, theory craft with me then Sorsha. I would see the uncontrollable redirections as Chaos Dance, and Magnetarch, so I won't bother with those. I don't see Ahriman gaining out of redirecting the night kill onto Epi, and why would Ahriman kill Epi? If Epi was switched with someone via Master of Ancient Arts, who do you think was actually supposed to die?

I welcome any theories or comments about Sorsha's and my exchanges.

[Scotty]

OK. Looking at Dom, who was a big proponent of lynching Golden, even though he didn't vote in Day 3.

Dom: He has 44 posts, and most all of them are substantive. He looks like he's actively baddie-hunting, but let's see how that relates to Golden.

Day 1

Spoiler: show

I think Bea has a point. I just didn't have anything to add. BWT does kinda come across like he's planted himself firmly on the fence but is willing to jump to one side or the other at a moment's notice.

Surprising amount of linki. Will post before I read it!

Bullzeye, does that make you think BWT is bad? You might have expounded upon this further, but I don't remember.

It doesn't make me think he's not bad. There's really nothing I can say about it that I haven't already, I think BWT looks like he's trying to be blendy. That alone at this stage of the game doesn't immediately scream evil at me, though if it was a traditional set up with pre-defined mafia teams it might. I won't be voting BWT today based on that post alone.

Did you notice that you just did the exact thing you find BWT ping-y for?
Or nah?

Because as I see it, you just put yourself on the fence on whether you'll vote BWT or not on a moment's notice. . . the exact thing you criticized BWT for.

T is for The Baddies?

Having looked through DH's posts, there isn't too much I specifically wanted to highlight. All I will say is, from post one, which was:

I voted for Position 1, because its best to start at the beginning.

And was deliberately done very early right in the middle of other people trying to figure out which position was best.

Then he did all his adverb stuff.

What I will say is, I suggest people read DH back for themselves. But the very distinct impression I get is that, even for DH, he is trying to play up almost too hard how much he really doesn't care.

Golden, I didn't find Epig's case very compelling. HOWEVER, I find your behavior here (and elsewhere) compelling.
You made the DH sound way bigger than you make it to be here. Additionally, you don't even follow any of the leads you put out there.

I voted for epi.

BUT earlier you said you would find it hard to vote for someone you didn't find suspicious!!! Why the change?? Or is Epig bad now? Is this justified on the "last time" stuff you said earlier?

Like a cute little sitcom. Where's Bob Saget and Dave Coulier when you need them?

You're John Stamos????

Right.

Dom is compelled by Golden's behavior more than Epi's argument against him. Golden seems to be making more of a deal about DH than there warranted for position picking, and Dom picks up on that. Then he calls out Golden for voting Epi even though he didn't necessarily find Epi suspicious.

There's nothing apparently shady about this suspicion- it was in the middle of a few reads, and he seems pretty actively snooping for suspects early in Day 1.
He then asks SVS what she thinks of Golden's NO-U, and she sees his point.

Followed by some light banter with Epi:

Spoiler: show

Lorab, I just don't give a shit at some point.

I want epi dead and god help me if I fall into a kill thats where I'm using it.

I don't like people who use lies to suspect me. I'm fine with those who will suspect me based on truthful interpretations.

I gave epi lots of chances to read back and see that he was wrong about his own factual statements. He wilfully chose to ignore them. He still claims his version of events is true. Anyone is free to read and see that what I have said is objectively true and what he has said is objectively, patently, false. I just don't think anyone should have to put up with constantly defending themselves against made up bullshit.

What lie did I use to suspect you? I pointed out exactly why I suspect you. It's in the colors man. The colors. Those aren't lies. Those are your own words.

That's it. There is NOTHING ELSE outside of that making me suspect you. So you asking me to read this or that or the other....no. It's that one post. That's it.

If I may--

I think your ignoring the context of Golden's response IS detrimental to your analysis of Golden.

Golden's reaction, however, makes me suspicious either way.

He says Epi isn't getting a free pass, but Golden is still a big suspicion.

Golden says that Epi "knows [Golden] isn't bad just fine. He's having fun." to which Dom poses the situation that if Epi were on one bad team, how would he know if Golden was on the other.

Spoiler: show

@dom - Lets not get pedantic with the word know.

Sometimes I know people are good or bad. It's not because I have proof. It's because I just know. I believe epi knows I am not bad. OK?

Also, that meme should have had pink font.

So.... is Epig bad or not then?

Golden, what do you suppose might Epignosis's anti-town motives be if he is smearing you deliberately right now?

I suspect that if epi has no alignment, it is no skin off his nose to take out someone he does not want to end up on an opposing team to him. Not that I think he would necessarily specifically target me as that person, but, put it this way...

Where the rest of us might be inclined to vote a low poster because they might end up being a good target for baddies in case we end up fighting for the civs, I think epi is more likely to think of it from the opposite perspective and take out people he doesn't want opposing him should he end up fighting for the mafia.

Wait... I thought Epig was bad-- according to you? Especially since you said you'd feel uncomfortable voting someone you don't suspect to be bad. I have brought this up twice now and you kind of brush it aside-- why the discrepancy?

Dom picks up that Golden is contradicting himself on whether or no he (Golden) actually thinks Epi is bad or not. And if he doesn't think Epi is bad, why is he voting for him? His word choices did seem pretty confident- "Epi knows this", "I know whether people are good and bad, even if I don't have proof". Dom's needling makes sense.

Spoiler: show

My best case scenario for today (and luckily, the statistically most likely one) is that we lynch a neutral.

Exactly. That's why I am saying that voting epi is a perfectly good strategy for me. Because I think he is probably neutral, and even if not he will be bad, not civ.

WTF?

I suppose Dom is exclaiming at the fact that Golden just said he voted Epi as a NO-U, but here he says Epi is probably neutral or bad. I guess.

Then he puts Golden on the backburner and focuses on me, ultimately voting for me Day 1.

Day 2. Epi gets killed.

I was not directly responsible for killing epi. I was intentionally baiting people into setting me up, though. I suspected that if I made enough of my intention to kill epi, someone else would do it.

I am very sad to see Typhoony die already, I agree with SVS it's a lame kill hope you get a rezz, typh.

you are making no sense tbh

Dom brings attention to the fact that Golden is all over the place, which follows the meta that Dom has been painting on Golden thus far. Golden is digging his own grave.

Early Day 2, he votes Golden on account that he just can't trust his behavior.
Bass is lynched.
Dom's first post of Night 2:

Spoiler: show

I'm not saying RIP to Bass, and, at the expense of making enemies further, I'll echo nutella's thoughts a bit and say that I'm not that sad about Bass's death either. It would have been ideal to nab a mafia-aligned recruiter or recruited, naturally, but an unrecruited Bass is still at least a somewhat favorable result. That said, I'll dearly miss him on a personal level, as always.

Maybe you all are generally more OK with it because you weren't on the receiving end of his completely baseless attack against me, which, combined with other similar attacks yesterday, actually had me feeling as though I was a solid lynch contender for Day 2. My feelings were confirmed when I was tied for the lead in votes for quite a while, though later it died down. Bass's behavior was unpredictable, he wasn't willing at all to actually engage others in conversation and see things from my point of view. He could have easily been playing a mafia or chaos-aligned neutral game, regardless of whether people think his role seems dangerous on its own, which was sort of the feel I was getting from his posts up until the end there.

I agree that it's bet at this stage for Golden to drop the Epi issue completely, but it doesn't help that others (rey and S~V~S and Boomslang, etc.) have been just as insistent on bringing it up over and over as well as Golden has.

Make fun of me as his cheerleader all you want (actually, please do, since it's hilarious), but I have been only defending Golden with the fervor that I've had because I feel accusations against him have been driven by mere fear mongering ("he did that to Epi? What if he does it to me?!?!?!!?"), which is a silly sentiment in my opinion given that the vast majority of players in this game still don't know what side they're going to end up on.

Bass was playing a bad/chaos-aligned neutral game... interesting...
What is Golden playing?

Immediately brings Golden into the forefront with Bass' lynch.

MP suggests that Golden is neutral, to which Dom brings up the fact that Golden has a change in tone since Day 0.

Apparently Golden said he would play a civ-minded game if he were civ, even though he says he was not a civ or a baddie, so I hardly see how this matters.

Spoiler: show

Also Bye Bass
I think this is become an elitist game tbqh, where the people who arenot hard core player will going to be lynched, my prediction, less see in an a fortune teller

I disagree 100%, have you been reading the same thread as me? Golden and I have been in hot seats for almost the entire game, and Golden barely made it out of the last lynch alive.

Meanwhile, we have TinyBubbles, timmer, and DisgruntledPorcupine, who are recently receiving a bit of heat, but have not come under near as much fire as those who have put their words on the line and posted much more.

I think your post here trying to further the divide, making this a hardcore v. non-hardcore fest, is troubling greatly. I think players with post counts of all sizes should be eyeballed with equal fervor, not lopsided, and it's entirely why I've been defending Golden because his posts have read completely reasonable as a neutral-aligned Golden. The only accusations against him legitimately fall into two categories: (1) fear mongering and (2) belief that neutral Golden would play like a civilian.

HE SAID HE WOULD

When did I ever say I would play "Like my civilian meta" - if anything, I've said the exact opposite - that I am neutral and don't know what team I'm on and am one of the few people overtly being clear that I am playing like that. I have literally never said I'm playing 'like a civilian'.

I am, however, saying that I do not believe epi was a civ, and I would not have made my move if I thought he was a civilian. I'm not playing anti-civilian.

You literally said you would have a hard time voting for someone who you didn't think was bad. How much more civilian can you get?
This is quite different than baiting a baddie to kill Epignosis because you don't think you'll end up on his team... but... if you are a civilian... you might not even know if you're on his team... or if he's on the other civilian team... like???? what????
No, it's because you got recruited and are bad.

Spoiler: show

Why the wishy-washy-ness on Bass?
When Epignosis pushed for his lynch, he had one vote, did he not? Golden was hardly in danger on Day 1.

This does not address Golden's change in tone. This does not address Golden's change in actions since Day 0.

Dom, I'm confused. What wishy-washyness are you talking about? I feel I've been consistent on Bass.

I don't discount that fact; you raise a good point. Nonetheless, I've been pursued by Epignosis before on Day 1, and Day 1 always unpredictable. I suppose it's so easy for me to understand Golden's perspective because I was just feeling everything he seemed to be feeling here on Day 1 of Economics when Epi relentlessly attacked me because he thought I was lying about RL.

Regarding Golden, I do believe his tone changed rapidly once Epi started going after him hard, and I can completely understand why. I do not think Golden's change in tone is indicative of anything other than being under intense emotional fire. What do you think?

I think he's been recruited.

Golden voters.

Dom: I feel is probably genuine, although I don't entirely understand why he suspects me. But it's been consistent and felt real. I'd like to understand what specific things I've done that have him suspecting me.

I don't understand your change in tone from Day 0 and wanting to find baddies to literally manipulating the thread to kill someone because you didn't want them going after you and you didn't think you'd be not he same team (with extremely flawed logic).

This marks a change in Dom, where he accuses Golden as being recruited as bad, and manipulating the thread in Day 1 to kill Epi.

Day 3:

Spoiler: show

I feel uneasy about voting Golden after his meltdown post, but... I still suspect him.

Dom softens on Golden after he starts to speak more honestly in Golden's eyes.

Spoiler: show

Golden, where did the hosts indicate that?

I don't know, dom, I didn't go back and check whether it was day zero or day one. I was just posting from what I thought was the case, but you could just as equally be right. I still haven't checked, but I will do so now.

You're so bad.

This was from day 0:

Official Announcement

All PM's must now be directed to both hosts (the other one being Long Con) as I am leaving for work soon and he will be home.

ALL Leaders please submit a list of three players for options of your first recruit.

So, really, it could be Day 0.

Official Announcement

All PM's must now be directed to both hosts (the other one being Long Con) as I am leaving for work soon and he will be home.

ALL Leaders please submit a list of three players for options of your first recruit.

There will be 4 by days end. We are just waiting on something before the recruits will be officially told.

You are right, it was day zero. My bad. So your theory about my tone change is completely legitimate.

But the real reason my tone shifted is that when I went toe to toe with epi, it got me thinking about the nature of the game and what it meant to be neutral in a way I hadn't until that point.

I have tried to explain that I've never played a game like this before. I'm not sure that you or some others have recognised that this comes with growing pains and I was thrown into the spotlight very early while I was still figuring the game out (frankly, I still am figuring the game out).

That's nice, and I appreciate your honesty here.
I truly think you are bad. I think you are cornered and have freaked out. You also lashed out at me, saying you agreed with "others" (nutella) about my posting. When I addressed this with you, I don't recall a response.
Why is that?
Did I miss it?

You have not played with Epignosis much. I think it is unlikely that it is a frame becasue if I were a baddie, an Epi/Golden thread derailment would be a major wet dream. Had Epi not died, we would have had 2 more days of nonstop, escalating sniping and talking about almost nothing but Epi & Golden. Any bad team would eat that up. UNLESS Golden or Epi was on their team.

Having played bad against Epi a zillion times, as soon as he mentions a teammate, I kill him, lol. I think most baddies do. But if he doesn't, then he's awesome alive. He's tenacious and always stone certain he is right regardless of whether that is true or not.

So I think either Golden is on Azuras team, OR Azura herself and her first recruit are someone fairly unfamiliar with our site player dynamics. And Goldens reaction to Epis death scotched that for me, tbh. I thought a frame was an outside possibility until golden started talking.

Linki, the poll can't be edited once people vote, the votes will be lost. So the hosts will have to decide if they want thread voting or to ask people who already voted to revote.

This.

SVS, the killing of epi derailed the thread. Are you telling me that what has occurred would not be a desirable outcome?

Also, if my goal was to kill epi so as to minimise the amount of attention on me in the thread (which has to be the reason, right?) then why do I immediately go and say something that will inevitably immediately reinvite that attention?

See.... it is NOT desirable if you're bad.
[

But he didn't buy it for too long, because he went back to the all-you-can-kill Golden Corral. Golden doesn't remember when the first recruits were recruited, Golden apologizes, but Dom isn't taking the bullsuit. Dom even appreciates Golden's honesty, or was that sarcastic? It doesn't matter, because at this point Dom will not accept that Golden is not bad.

Dom had a few more posts then dropped off the face of the earth for the remainder of the day. I can't recall if he voted for anyone.

Hey @Dom, you said you had to think. What have you thought of in the past 48 hours since you posted anything responsive?

I take away from Dom that he is really attempting to catch a baddie, which is good, and his arguments against Golden, while wrong, were at least mostly solid. There are a couple times that makes me wonder if he were attempting to lead the discussion back to Golden early on in Day 2, and back into Day 3 before disappearing.

But I also must confess that while writing all of these ISOs that it's making it harder and harder for me to believe whoever framed Golden would leave a breadcrumb trail. And that no one needed to push the topic much in Day 2, because Golden's demeanor did himself in, IMO. He just wasn't trustworthy with his statements, which would make Azura just sit back, put her arms behind her head, and smoke a cigar.

I'm going to take SVS' advice and look at the opposite end of the spectrum for clues: someone who outwardly had no stance on Golden and in fact soft defended him to see if I can find anything. I feel like I'm grasping at straws in this regard, and apologize if all of this is incredibly unhelpful.

[Scotty]

Oh God, my formatting is atrocious. Sorry

Maybe I should do some ISO's or something.

I'd actually like to see that. Even if it's on me

[nutella]

I find myself roughly concurring with the majority of MP's rainbow reads (biggest discrepancy is unfurl, and the strength of the baddie reads is a bit different). I like your thoughts on Sorsha, but I could also easily see her as an unrecruited.

I don't really know what to think of Dom. I don't like that his only reaction to the lynch + lack of night was "I need to think more" and then he disappeared. What kind of remark is that, anyway? Afraid to go for a stream-of-consciousness post? And you too Rey, why were you so hesitant to publicly react to Golden's flip?

[Scotty]

I would like you to elaborate on your read of me. And please read my responses to dr wilgy from earlier today so that I don't have to repeat myself.

Here. I know you didn't ask me, but Scotty's up to the task!

I'm trying to make it easier to read so we all don't go insane.

Sorcha: Not many posts. She had a funeral to attend at the start, so wasn't around as much for discussion. I'm sorry to hear about the funeral

Day 1 was a wash for her.

Day 2. Her first post was the following:

Spoiler: show

Sorry to see Epi and Typhoony gone so soon.

I was sporadically keeping up with reading the thread on my drive home last night but I’m just going to comment on things as I come across them in my re-reading tonight.

If Golden was baiting a baddie team to take Epi out what would make the baddie team actually think taking Epi out is a good idea?

Other than trying to set Golden up to look bad and lead to a Golden lynch today? Does that even work anymore? There is the whole WIFOM argument to go along with that situation. Leaving Epi alive to duke it out with Golden seems like it would be a better idea….. a distraction in the thread is usually good for the bad guys to hide behind.

I know most of us have been playing a while and have been bad before. I don’t recall ever reading the thread (as mafia) and thinking that the NK decision would be made by someone in the thread baiting the team to a kill.

Her first in the day (and Day 2 was a BEAST to read thru mind you) and her first impression is to talk about Golden possibly being set up- does it work any more, why would mafia do that, they should've left Epi alive to duke it out, that sounds so weird that mafia would follow someone's lead to bait a kill...

This whole post is fishy. It took like 13 pages and she posts about that fishy Epi kill...no real opinion on Golden either.

Spoiler: show

I've been reading through players posts, reviewing the suspicions that players have of each other and am finding it hard to choose someone to vote for. I either don't agree with the suspicion (if I can actually find that one was given) or I feel the player is neutral (which most of us still are).

linki: I'm not comfortable following the Speaker at this point either.

She becomes overwhelmed since there are so many people to vote for that she is paralyzed, and forgot to buy the Paralyze Heal from the Pokemart!
This is eerily similar to her Day 1, in which she didn't know who to vote for, and instead of putting her vote on a random person, chose not to vote at all.
She ultimately votes for TinyBubbles for doing a driveby vote. So she values someone having a reason to vote for someone else, which matches her anxiety in Day 1.

She then posts that she had to catch up after Bass was lynched, and then we didn't hear from her again til the afternoon of the first half of day 3...and this is where things start looking fishier than a whale vagina:

Spoiler: show

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

Golden the point I was trying to get was if someone were setting you up who do you think it is?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Well my thought was that they killed epi to frame golden to set up a golden lynch the next day, once that didn't happen they have had to step up their accusations against him to get the lynch train going to golden.

I don't agree with the conclusions svs has come to on golden. I have to re read dh and Rey a bit. I was just throwing it out there to see what others are thinking on it.

I should add that I'm not 100% caught up... It's just too much to read so I'm sorry if this stuff was covered already.

Now answer mine.

If it worked once, It could work again. You've already shown you have no problem basically asking the people with the kills to do your dirty work, why would I, how could I in good faith, assume you wouldn't be above doing it twice?

Did you not think you could have lynched Epi? Or were you afraid that having lynched him would have put a nail in your coffin?

OK, so you were scared of me on the offchance that I would pull the same ploy a second time and on the offchance it would work twice (note, even after I had stated I don't think I would possibly be able to replicate it) and on the offchance that if I tried it again I would choose you as the target...

What has 'in good faith' got to do with it?

What I see in your answer to my question is exactly the same as what I thought of your suspicion all along.... you are not particularly scared of me killing you, you just see me, generically, as a threat.

And no, I did not think I could lynch epi (at least not before he lynched me). As I said, when epi has done what he did in this game in the past, it has not worked out well for me. Everything I did to epi was specifically about epi, and the impact he has on games, and I don't think anyone who claims they legitimately think I might do the same to them without any reason to think it is being genuine.

Oh, btw, you didn't actually directly answer my question. I thought I should point that out, since it seemed you had a problem with that when I did it. You've actually been avoiding it all afternoon.

Were you legitimately scared that if I am not on the team that killed epi, I could say 'kill DH for me', and they will?

Of course I am

It'd be like putting my name on the top of a rainbow list. Let me tell you why your Epi plan was good:

It was good because it got rid of someone you needed to get rid of in order to make it farther into the game. Now let me tell you why your Epi move was the worst possible thing you could have done:

You came up with a solution to a temporary problem that created a problem much bigger, and more difficult to solve. Namely, now you are unrecruitable. No one in their right mind would want you on their team, because of the big fuckin' red X on your forehead right now. You also presented at least one opportunity for the killer(s) to avoid accountability for their kill. Accountability is the most dangerous thing in mafia, and you basically gave whoever killed Epi a free pass.

So either you are a baddie and cooked up the whole "baited" kill as a smokescreen, or you are fine with not being recruited. Which of those do you think is more likely?

The bolded paragraph of DHs near the end of this quote explains why it would be a bad move for golden to have killed epi. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know this is goldens first recruitment game but it isn't his first mafia game.

She backs up Golden and says that she doesn't think he killed Epi. Defending him. Check.
She then attempts to plant the idea that 'whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it'. Wow, leading the witness much? By prepositioning with the idea that Golden was set up, running it over again in her first post of the day every day, sounds like a pride thing a baddie would do. "I successfully framed a dude, I'm so cool, look guys, someone framed him, whoooooo could it beeeee? "
The second to last quote up there not only defends Golden when and if he flips non-baddie, but implicates reading into the ones hounding him- SVS, rey and DH. Very clever, if she killed Epi, because she can start making the Golden detractors look bad in the process.

Later in the second half of day 3:

Spoiler: show

Wilgy clads himself in armor. The sun shines off his helmet blinding the crowd as he grabs his sword and shield. A cloud covers the sun and the reflection dissipates. The crowd can now see that Wilgy's sword and shield are both Golden*

Bring it on. Sorsha, I've had abit to drink tonight. Why don't you join me and tell me who framed Roger Rabit (Golden)?

Vote registered for Sorsha

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Looks like Scotty has made a nice post about who may have framed Golden.

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

I'm reminded that DrWilgy had already seen something weird about Sorcha here, and might be thinking the same thing I am right now. She even throws in my thoughts on SVS and reywaS as fuel to the fire. How very nice.

Day 4. Golden was killed. lo and behold he was NOT baddie!

Spoiler: show

*Wilgy walks into the room of chattering. His cloths are dirty and he smells of alcohol, but there is confidence in his step. He approaches everyone and points a finger to Sorsha.*

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

Sorsha, the reason why I asked you a question so soon after you posted was due to your tone. You state, confidently, that Golden is being framed. Here's the kicker though, you didn't save him. You could've taken your vote off of tiny to save a person being framed, but you didnt. Why?

Also, what gave you the confidence in your tone? I don't believe you answered that question when I asked earlier?

What puzzle piece am I missing in Golden's case? And should I place my bets on you? Or against you?

I didn't save him because I was in no way confident that he was framed, however my tone sounded to you.

I'm still neutral/ unrecruited and unlike some playing have no problem with baddie hunting. That's why I was asking for ideas on who might have framed golden. I got answers that I pretty much expected: anyone could have been behind it really. Just because I expected that to be the answer doesn't mean I wouldn't ask the question though.

This entire time you've campaigning for finding Golden's framer, now you're backpedaling and saying you were in "no way confident" there was even a framer now that Golden was lynched and someone is on your ass?

-------------

This here is a player that wants to create no waves, and doesn't want to be caught red handed just in case she commits to the wrong decision. This can either be very noobish or very baddie-like. I don't know Sorcha's history as a player. Is she usually like this? Either way I'm reading her right now as bad bad bad.

[Scotty]

And it's actually enough in my drunken state to change my vote to Sorcha at the current time.

[Tangrowth]

Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!

In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.

[Tangrowth]

I find myself roughly concurring with the majority of MP's rainbow reads (biggest discrepancy is unfurl, and the strength of the baddie reads is a bit different). I like your thoughts on Sorsha, but I could also easily see her as an unrecruited.

I don't really know what to think of Dom. I don't like that his only reaction to the lynch + lack of night was "I need to think more" and then he disappeared. What kind of remark is that, anyway? Afraid to go for a stream-of-consciousness post? And you too Rey, why were you so hesitant to publicly react to Golden's flip?

Would you mind making a list? I'm curious.

Can you better explain to me what you think of unfurl? I kept her in the bottom section based on what I've thought of her for Days, as well as Daisy's thoughts on her the other day, but I'm trying to reevaluate her with an open mind, since it's possible the fact that we just aren't seeing eye to eye at all is why I'm finding her more suspicious than I would otherwise.

[nutella]

OK, I'll try, but a lot of these are kind of arbitrary. I'm honestly just going to c/p from yours and switch around a bunch of names. Also just to be clear the green end includes people I think are more likely to just be unrecruited (such as myself), rather than specifically civ.


nutella

S~V~S
Scotty
Canucklehead

JaggedJimmyJay
MovingPictures07
birdwithteeth11
bea

Bullzeye
Roxy
unfurl
DrWilgy
Ricochet

Turnip Head
Russtifinko / Synonym
Spacedaisy
timmer

thellama73
Tranq
DisgruntledPorcupine
DFaraday
aapje
Devin the Omniscient

LoRab
Metalmarsh89
Sorsha
Boomslang
TinyBubbles
Dom

DharmaHelper
reywaS


Meh, this didn't feel like a very helpful exercise, a lot of this is uncertain and subject to change. I had reconsidered Rey's likelihood of baddieness and rescinded my suspicion of him by the end of the previous day, but now I have put him back at the bottom for that recent post of his about not posting after Golden's lynch because that pinged me six ways to sunday.

[LoRab]

Really long day and I don't feel great. Oy. Responding to a few posts. And, perhaps because I don't feel well and am cranky, I'm feeling more and more frustrated at people being suspicious of me because they disagree with me or because I think about things and play differently than they do. It's particularly frustrating when it's players that have played with me enough to know that suspecting me like that doesn't make sense.

I encourage everyone in the thread to eye me. And to read my posts, and read them in context of the posts around them. And come to your own conclusions. I am not bad. I have nothing to hide.

Oh yeah, and Lorab for wanting to lynch neutrals.

Rest in peace Golden. See you in another life brotha.

I'm registering a vote for LoRab for wanting to lynch neutrals.

I do not WANT to lynch neutrals. I never WANTED to lynch neutrals. But I would rather lynch a neutral than a civ. And when I voted for Golden, I did not suspect anyone of being on a baddie team. I changed my vote to the person I suspected of being bad after that. I am starting to feel like a broken record--but I feel like my words being twisted. And since I think one of you is bad, then it feels like you're intentionally manipulating the way you frame my thoughts.

My primary reason for voting Boomslang early this phase was to generate significant pressure that might get him in here fighting for himself. Hopefully he does that while there are still votes in play. LoRab is still a suspect, and I'm moved my vote to her for now.

One thing I would recommend to everyone is this: don't trust your own suspicions too much. Don't carry your suspects from Day 0/1 all the way through Day 4 merely because they exist on the roster still. Reassess. That doesn't mean you're wrong about them, it just means you should put the legwork in to build confidence. Engage those players frequently.

Again, still not bad.

And one thing I would recommend to everyone is this: don't tell other people how to play the game. I don't think any of us are newbies and a lot of us have been playing in this extended community for a really long time. We don't need to be told how you think we should play.

Lorab just seems to be going back-and-forth with JJJ about the meaning of neutrality in this game, which I think we're all kind of wrestling with. I tend to disagree when Lorab says "no, lynching neutrals is neutral." Lynching neutrals is more favorable to baddies because it increases the ratio of baddies to everyone else, making them more influential in lynch polls. Conversely, I like how Lorab defends the use of Day 0 material when voting Turnip Head: the game is in fact cumulative. JJJ has said that we should be less trusting of our early suspicions, which makes me wonder what people will turn out to have skeletons in their closets as the game progresses.

But it isn't a ratio of baddies to everyone else. It's a ratio of baddies to civies, and a slew of players that could be supportive of any or no given cause. Unrecruited players win with civies or with baddies--we just need to stay alive to win. To assume that all of the unrecruited players are playing a civ-supportive game is naive and dangerous for anyone who is looking to support the civs.

And I forgot to add a Happy birthday to Bea last night. Everyone should wish her a delightful day, too!

[DharmaHelper]

Meh, this didn't feel like a very helpful exercise,

Now you're talkin.

[Dom]

I just got back from a 7:30-9:30 shift. I am pooped. I also student taught for the majority of the week (I had to meet my students, then return home because MY college hasn't even started yet -_-).

Can someone explain the case on Boomslang for me? I don't get it.

I'm not quite sure I understand it either.

Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.

What do all of you players think?

Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that

Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.

DH, you seem to refuse to take ANYTHING seriously. Why won't you respond to the people bringing up your name, and why have you not contributed a single original thought or any kind of substantial discussion for the entire game?

Who has brought me up that I haven't responded to?

Me, llama, certainly others, your name came up a few times during the last day I believe. Nice No U on Scotty btw. Who do you really suspect and why?

I see your behavior in this game as similar to (though maybe not quite to same extreme as) MM's. Speaking of which, MM owes me a few explanations. He's refused to contribute AT ALL to any thread discussions. MM, please give us something to work with here.

Do you really think DH's posts constitute a NO U? I don't see that.

You did not give any reason to think Scotty was suspicious. You only criticized him for suspecting you. That is a no u.

That's not quite true. He critiqued Scotty's actual suspicion and explained why it was wrong. Scotty basically was like "oh well". That was weird.

*Wilgy walks into the room of chattering. His cloths are dirty and he smells of alcohol, but there is confidence in his step. He approaches everyone and points a finger to Sorsha.*

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

Sorsha, the reason why I asked you a question so soon after you posted was due to your tone. You state, confidently, that Golden is being framed. Here's the kicker though, you didn't save him. You could've taken your vote off of tiny to save a person being framed, but you didnt. Why?

Also, what gave you the confidence in your tone? I don't believe you answered that question when I asked earlier?

What puzzle piece am I missing in Golden's case? And should I place my bets on you? Or against you?

Wilgy, that's a good point about Sorsha-- I haven't seen a response, but I might have missed it in my massive catch up. I look forward to hearing from her.

OK. Looking at Dom, who was a big proponent of lynching Golden, even though he didn't vote in Day 3.

SNIPPED FOR BREVITY

Dom had a few more posts then dropped off the face of the earth for the remainder of the day. I can't recall if he voted for anyone.

Hey @Dom, you said you had to think. What have you thought of in the past 48 hours since you posted anything responsive?

I take away from Dom that he is really attempting to catch a baddie, which is good, and his arguments against Golden, while wrong, were at least mostly solid. There are a couple times that makes me wonder if he were attempting to lead the discussion back to Golden early on in Day 2, and back into Day 3 before disappearing.

First, I would like to clarify that I would have voted Golden Day 3, but the thread was locked and I could not. I kept refreshing my computer at my friend's apartment, hoping to be able to vote, but could not.

Right now, I'm looking at unfurl, nutella, Sorsha, and you. I think I have kind of explained that in this post and past ones. If you'd like an elaboration, that would be more than welcome.

I find myself roughly concurring with the majority of MP's rainbow reads (biggest discrepancy is unfurl, and the strength of the baddie reads is a bit different). I like your thoughts on Sorsha, but I could also easily see her as an unrecruited.

I don't really know what to think of Dom. I don't like that his only reaction to the lynch + lack of night was "I need to think more" and then he disappeared. What kind of remark is that, anyway? Afraid to go for a stream-of-consciousness post? And you too Rey, why were you so hesitant to publicly react to Golden's flip?

First, no. I am not doing a stream-of-consciousness post from when the thread was locked. And honestly, that's kind of ridiculous to expect of me. Please, show me all the other people you're also asking of that from.
Nice attempt to throw suspicion on me for almost no reason, though.

[Dom]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO BOTH BR AND BEA I'M NOT TOO LATE YET!!

[Black Rock]

Happy Birthday Black Rock! Hope you get to have some kind of fun today. Maybe LC bought you a cake and flowers and a gift!

I got my pearl earrings I have been eyeing.

Day 4, 81 pages. bruh.

Are you ready to sub in?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO BOTH BR AND BEA I'M NOT TOO LATE YET!!

Just under the wire.

[Black Rock]

Official Announcement

Team Caelia and Team Ahriman have recruited!

[bea]

I'd appreciate it if a lot of you folks could share your take on my exchange with Boomslang during this phase. It's a serious infraction for me, but I don't want to tunnel him hard based on one thing (shades of S~V~S on Golden). You folks can help me decide whether I am making too much of a fuss about it.

TBH, JJJ - I kinda lost track of what was going on once it started to get into semantics.

[LoRab]

I'd appreciate it if a lot of you folks could share your take on my exchange with Boomslang during this phase. It's a serious infraction for me, but I don't want to tunnel him hard based on one thing (shades of S~V~S on Golden). You folks can help me decide whether I am making too much of a fuss about it.

TBH, JJJ - I kinda lost track of what was going on once it started to get into semantics.

Wait...are you saying that you're antisemantic? I thought we were friends!!! :P

Yeah, I'm totally loopy tonight. Sorry.

[bea]

Btw, I totally forgot Tranq was playing. He hasn't posted since Night 2. Tranq where are you?

THIS!! THIS!! SO MUCH THIS!!! A quiet, game playing, contest winning Dutchie skerrs me to to core tbh.
I was waiting to the end to post my "OMG, I forgot that Tranq was playing. No one should ever forget Tranq is playing!!" post, but hot damn LA - it's like you're in my head during this catch up. I find myself agreeing with you more than I don't.

I also find myself agreeing with Rox too, which is just a bit weird since she thinks you are bad.

linki - I love loopy lorab! Best birfday prezzie yet!!! :twirl:

[bea]

I need to reassess bea too. Sorry for the thinking outloud filler posts, these are for me to see later as reminders.

That's not a bad idea TBH. If you did an ISO post on me, you'd find a lot of fluff and some one or two cent additions here or there but no real major contributions given my post count. Due to my work schedule, I often miss the "as it happens stuff" and just kinda slam catch up posts in when no one else is still around. Like now. I struggle between trying to find a balance between spamming the thread and saying meaningful things. It's still a work in progress.

Also - I'm totally cute and fun to have around and I've been away forever and everyone is super happy I'm playing for sure!!

also also - I'm still unrecruited fwiw.

[LoRab]

Btw, I totally forgot Tranq was playing. He hasn't posted since Night 2. Tranq where are you?

THIS!! THIS!! SO MUCH THIS!!! A quiet, game playing, contest winning Dutchie skerrs me to to core tbh.
I was waiting to the end to post my "OMG, I forgot that Tranq was playing. No one should ever forget Tranq is playing!!" post, but hot damn LA - it's like you're in my head during this catch up. I find myself agreeing with you more than I don't.

I also find myself agreeing with Rox too, which is just a bit weird since she thinks you are bad.

linki - I love loopy lorab! Best birfday prezzie yet!!! :twirl:

Likewise. And Tranq not being memorable is, well, confusing.

I aim to amuse. My brain is fuzzy from fever, but if I'm making you happy on your b-day, I am satisfied.

And an inspirational message for your prezzie:

[bea]

Good morning Syndicate,

I have no idea who I've replaced but I'm probably going to be more active so that's a positive.

Trying to figure out the nuances of this site so bear with me for a phase or so. I'm guessing the giant pole at the top is how we vote? Are we allowed to change votes or is it a lock once you choose one?

Welcome Syn!! Thanks for replacing in!! I do not envy your catch up.

@ aapje - fwiw - I'm trying to keep my night spamming of the thread to a minimum. Sorry if I am the fail at that. I do understand the epic catch up though. I had like 10 pages to crank through when I got home from work....

[DrWilgy]

Bea it was your b day as well?! Happy balurmfday!! (birthday)

[bea]

I also think it's dangerous to think that certain types of players are more or less apt to be recruited. We should be cautious of everyone. I, too, have been too closed-minded with regards to this.

I agree with this, I tried to say as much in the beginning of the game. Recuriters get less choice than people think in these games. You have a wish list for sure. My recriting last time around was different because I was rezzed into it so I think I got 2 peeps by choice. After that, it was a combination of "there's a contest for x" that the players did - only people who pariticipated in the contest were in the recruiting poll (that's how I got typh -he was literally the only one that applied for the spot.) - there were also things we as recruiters had to do - and then we could get first, second, third choice at a list of *roles* not people. On RM, there were many arcade based challenges. I have no idea wtf our crazy awesome insane hosts are making recruiters do bts to get their recruits. They like to switch things up - they like to keep even the most veteran veteran guessing what's going on. It's why Iove them so.

[Yes Dr Wiggly -it is my birthday as well. Black Rock and I are birthday sisters. Hence me coming out of retirement to play her game. Also you all have rightly been wishing her a happy birthday. She is amazing for taking on this thing as her "fun time with her hubby." for her birthday. I would have made my hubby take me far away from the interwebs if that were possible. :nod: /OT]

[bea]

I also think it's dangerous to think that certain types of players are more or less apt to be recruited. We should be cautious of everyone. I, too, have been too closed-minded with regards to this.

I agree with this, I tried to say as much in the beginning of the game. Recuriters get less choice than people think in these games. You have a wish list for sure. My recriting last time around was different because I was rezzed into it so I think I got 2 peeps by choice. After that, it was a combination of "there's a contest for x" that the players did - only people who pariticipated in the contest were in the recruiting poll (that's how I got typh -he was literally the only one that applied for the spot.) - there were also things we as recruiters had to do - and then we could get first, second, third choice at a list of *roles* not people. On RM, there were many arcade based challenges. I have no idea wtf our crazy awesome insane hosts are making recruiters do bts to get their recruits. They like to switch things up - they like to keep even the most veteran veteran guessing what's going on. It's why Iove them so.

LINKI -Yes Dr Wiggly -it is my birthday as well. Black Rock and I are birthday sisters. Hence me coming out of retirement to play her game. Also you all have rightly been wishing her a happy birthday. She is amazing for taking on this thing as her "fun time with her hubby." for her birthday. I would have made my hubby take me far away from the interwebs if that were possible. :nod:

OMG you guys!! tag fail!!! It's like old times....sorry aapje for more spam. At least my return key works in this universe.

[Spacedaisy]

So I was reading along, catching up, and this post catches my eye and sets off alarm bells:

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?

Like I said before, I'm not sure that he was framed. There are a few roles with powers that could have led to epis death and those so adamant that golden killed epi didn't seem to be talking about/ taking those into consideration. Unless I missed it.

A player says he will kill another player the first NK he gets his hands on and the next night that player is killed and you don't think someone was framing him? I get there are potential manipulations, but why would a civ want to frame someone? I think we have all pretty much agreed that no one seemed to think the back and forth between Golden and Epi was anything more than neutral on neutral, so why would you think Ahriman would redirect a kill onto Epi? No, thi post read like someone who wanted people to keep moving along because they're hitting too close to home.

Then I read on and saw Scotty's case, and previously had seen Wilgy's case... I have to say Sorsha, you are not looking good to me right now.

I am Registering a vote for Sorsha

Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.

DH, you ignored me. You have played a very weird game so far that doesn't sit well with me at all. I can relate to how Nutella feels about you, as well as others.

Someone suspected llama and it surprised me, any other opinions on llama at the moment? I have found him to be pretty reasonable in my mind this game. I'm worried there is something wrong with me!

MM, where are you? Will you come join in the fun if I offer you a beer? don't make me vote for you to pull you out of the woodwork my friend. It would make me sad.

Boomslang, I had angry orchard for the first time tonight. I really enjoyed it. Just thought I would share. my only thing about all this Jay/Golden/Boo,slang stuff is that Golden was clear he didn't know Epi was bad, he didn't want to end up on a tea with him though or didn't think there was a good chance of it. So the case loses its logic when you remove that one assumption. But I don't think it makes you bad.

Jay, see my above regarding Boomslang. He could be bad, but I don't think your disagreement with him right now proves anything. You seem to be getting very nit picky in your arguments, is this the norm for you? I've only played one game with you and my concern is that I know of your reputation, you would be considered a prize recruit.

I could be wrong, but I feel pretty confident in my ability to read MP, and I believe he is either civ or unrecruited. Just my two cents for those gunning for him. Again, could be wrong because no one is perfect, but I don't think he is bad from what I am seeing. Yep he went crazy the other night, I can think of a couple reasons he would, neither of which includes him being bad. He is a better baddie tha to play like that tbqh.

Nutella, I just can't handle confident Nutella. I find it all kinds of scary, but it doesn't go away. I'm still feeling good vibes from you and it scares me.

I like Scotty, I have not found Scotty to seem bad, but I barely know the guy and probably haven't paid enough attention to him. The same goes for Dr.Wilgy, though I have paid him more attention.

More thoughts tomorrow perhaps. Night thread!

[nutella]

Dom -- maybe you don't quite have the same idea as what I mean by stream of consciousness post. I obviously don't expect everyone to come in here and ramble endlessly on everything, but I am firmly of the belief that you should say what is on your mind regarding what's going on in the thread/at least in response to a few things. When I catch up I grab posts along the way that I want to quote and respond to (btw this site REALLY needs a multiquote button I am tired of opening tabs and pasting) and make mental notes of whatever else I want to add my thoughts on, and when I write my post I just write off the top of my head and often my ideas evolve within a paragraph. That is what I consider a stream of consciousness style of posting -- posting openly what is on your mind and not being afraid to share your initial thoughts and reactions to stuff. And when something significant like a lynch reveal happens, I always at least acknowledge it. Both you and Rey refused to even comment on Golden's flip, and I am curious why you both were so hesitant to share your kneejerk reactions. If you're not guilty you should not be afraid to speak your mind and openly discuss your honest opinions.

[bea]

re dom: I think he and LA are fighting a different fight. I love you both, but it feels a bit like LA is splitting hairs about what she expects dom to do vs what he is doing. I thought I had Dom as a rainbow "orange" before this last post, but this last post feels genuine. So yea....

as far as fighting a different fight goes, I'll post a different one:

Lorab: During the end of the Golden lynch when she was talking about neutrals and how not to trust them and why not to trust them, I was all in my hed space being: But we did that end game!!! We're not endgame yet so neutrals are not by default "almost bad." We played that whole game civ till the last vote. You left out facts in your example!! I think you might be bad!!!

And then I cried some.

Reading her clarifications, I get what she is saying. Some people might play neutral to fight for civs. And early in the game, it's the safest choice. Some of us stick to it, and some of us would change in a heartbeat if we smelt the tide turning. And that - she is always correct about.

I agree with her point that a neutral death is still better than a civ death, even if that death were my own. Because it wasn't a civ.

Her clarifications changed my mind. When I started the catsup, I thought i'd have to try to figure out baddie lorab from the other side. I don't think it's there. Really.

I'm SUPER curious as to what is going on in SVS's mind post Golden lynch. I miss hearing about what she has to say about everyone else.

I'm concerned that people seem to be latching right on to the tinybubbles thing. Can't tell if it means I was on to something or if she's just the newest easy target. This concerns me. Especially as I was rethinking her just as people were latching on.

I'm happy that rey is still playing, and I totes understand needing to step away a bit. His break was a year, mine was a few months and I still feel like a noob kinda all over again. I an wait to hear what he has to say.

As far as DH goes, I feel like he feels like he is always in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I think his game play this game has been reflective of that. If I am wrong, DH, please correct me and show me the error of my ways. IF not, I'd like a hug plzktks!

linkie - I would give my left hand for a multiquote button. Trustry.


posting then reading the rest of the linki.

[Sorsha]

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?

Like I said before, I'm not sure that he was framed. There are a few roles with powers that could have led to epis death and those so adamant that golden killed epi didn't seem to be talking about/ taking those into consideration. Unless I missed it.

Ok, theory craft with me then Sorsha. I would see the uncontrollable redirections as Chaos Dance, and Magnetarch, so I won't bother with those. I don't see Ahriman gaining out of redirecting the night kill onto Epi, and why would Ahriman kill Epi? If Epi was switched with someone via Master of Ancient Arts, who do you think was actually supposed to die?

I welcome any theories or comments about Sorsha's and my exchanges.

With regards to Ahriman redirecting a night kill: I guess it depends on if Ahriman knew it was a NK s/he was being targeted with. He could have just been told to choose a target to deflect all night actions to regardless of the action, I'm not sure how exactly that role would work, if he did know it was a NK then maybe he didn’t trust Epi. I don’t know the answer to “Why kill Epi?” though… I’m not Ahriman so I can’t answer that.

With regards to the Master of Ancient Arts switch, even that player wouldn’t know as he is switching players targets, not roles targets.

[Sorsha]

I would like you to elaborate on your read of me. And please read my responses to dr wilgy from earlier today so that I don't have to repeat myself.

Here. I know you didn't ask me, but Scotty's up to the task!

I'm trying to make it easier to read so we all don't go insane.

Sorcha: Not many posts. She had a funeral to attend at the start, so wasn't around as much for discussion. I'm sorry to hear about the funeral

Day 1 was a wash for her.

Day 2. Her first post was the following:

Spoiler: show

Sorry to see Epi and Typhoony gone so soon.

I was sporadically keeping up with reading the thread on my drive home last night but I’m just going to comment on things as I come across them in my re-reading tonight.

If Golden was baiting a baddie team to take Epi out what would make the baddie team actually think taking Epi out is a good idea?

Other than trying to set Golden up to look bad and lead to a Golden lynch today? Does that even work anymore? There is the whole WIFOM argument to go along with that situation. Leaving Epi alive to duke it out with Golden seems like it would be a better idea….. a distraction in the thread is usually good for the bad guys to hide behind.

I know most of us have been playing a while and have been bad before. I don’t recall ever reading the thread (as mafia) and thinking that the NK decision would be made by someone in the thread baiting the team to a kill.

Her first in the day (and Day 2 was a BEAST to read thru mind you) and her first impression is to talk about Golden possibly being set up- does it work any more, why would mafia do that, they should've left Epi alive to duke it out, that sounds so weird that mafia would follow someone's lead to bait a kill...

This whole post is fishy. It took like 13 pages and she posts about that fishy Epi kill...no real opinion on Golden either.

I don’t understand why this post is so fishy to you. I’m trying to make sense of why a baddie team would follow the “suggestion” of a player who is not on their team from the thread. I had a lot of questions regarding the killing of Epi that I was just trying to make sense of in that post.

Spoiler: show

I've been reading through players posts, reviewing the suspicions that players have of each other and am finding it hard to choose someone to vote for. I either don't agree with the suspicion (if I can actually find that one was given) or I feel the player is neutral (which most of us still are).

linki: I'm not comfortable following the Speaker at this point either.

She becomes overwhelmed since there are so many people to vote for that she is paralyzed, and forgot to buy the Paralyze Heal from the Pokemart!
This is eerily similar to her Day 1, in which she didn't know who to vote for, and instead of putting her vote on a random person, chose not to vote at all.
She ultimately votes for TinyBubbles for doing a driveby vote. So she values someone having a reason to vote for someone else, which matches her anxiety in Day 1.

What do you mean by the last sentence in this post here. “So she values someone etc…..”
All you are doing here is paraphrasing what I am doing. I don’t really see your point here. It was day two, tons of posts and I was out of town and finding it hard to keep up. Even NOT being out of town this game would be hard to keep up with.

She then posts that she had to catch up after Bass was lynched, and then we didn't hear from her again til the afternoon of the first half of day 3...and this is where things start looking fishier than a whale vagina:

Spoiler: show

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

Golden the point I was trying to get was if someone were setting you up who do you think it is?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Well my thought was that they killed epi to frame golden to set up a golden lynch the next day, once that didn't happen they have had to step up their accusations against him to get the lynch train going to golden.

I don't agree with the conclusions svs has come to on golden. I have to re read dh and Rey a bit. I was just throwing it out there to see what others are thinking on it.

I should add that I'm not 100% caught up... It's just too much to read so I'm sorry if this stuff was covered already.

Now answer mine.

If it worked once, It could work again. You've already shown you have no problem basically asking the people with the kills to do your dirty work, why would I, how could I in good faith, assume you wouldn't be above doing it twice?

Did you not think you could have lynched Epi? Or were you afraid that having lynched him would have put a nail in your coffin?

OK, so you were scared of me on the offchance that I would pull the same ploy a second time and on the offchance it would work twice (note, even after I had stated I don't think I would possibly be able to replicate it) and on the offchance that if I tried it again I would choose you as the target...

What has 'in good faith' got to do with it?

What I see in your answer to my question is exactly the same as what I thought of your suspicion all along.... you are not particularly scared of me killing you, you just see me, generically, as a threat.

And no, I did not think I could lynch epi (at least not before he lynched me). As I said, when epi has done what he did in this game in the past, it has not worked out well for me. Everything I did to epi was specifically about epi, and the impact he has on games, and I don't think anyone who claims they legitimately think I might do the same to them without any reason to think it is being genuine.

Oh, btw, you didn't actually directly answer my question. I thought I should point that out, since it seemed you had a problem with that when I did it. You've actually been avoiding it all afternoon.

Were you legitimately scared that if I am not on the team that killed epi, I could say 'kill DH for me', and they will?

Of course I am

It'd be like putting my name on the top of a rainbow list. Let me tell you why your Epi plan was good:

It was good because it got rid of someone you needed to get rid of in order to make it farther into the game. Now let me tell you why your Epi move was the worst possible thing you could have done:

You came up with a solution to a temporary problem that created a problem much bigger, and more difficult to solve. Namely, now you are unrecruitable. No one in their right mind would want you on their team, because of the big fuckin' red X on your forehead right now. You also presented at least one opportunity for the killer(s) to avoid accountability for their kill. Accountability is the most dangerous thing in mafia, and you basically gave whoever killed Epi a free pass.

So either you are a baddie and cooked up the whole "baited" kill as a smokescreen, or you are fine with not being recruited. Which of those do you think is more likely?

The bolded paragraph of DHs near the end of this quote explains why it would be a bad move for golden to have killed epi. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know this is goldens first recruitment game but it isn't his first mafia game.

She backs up Golden and says that she doesn't think he killed Epi. Defending him. Check.
She then attempts to plant the idea that 'whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it'. Wow, leading the witness much? By prepositioning with the idea that Golden was set up, running it over again in her first post of the day every day, sounds like a pride thing a baddie would do. "I successfully framed a dude, I'm so cool, look guys, someone framed him, whoooooo could it beeeee? "
The second to last quote up there not only defends Golden when and if he flips non-baddie, but implicates reading into the ones hounding him- SVS, rey and DH. Very clever, if she killed Epi, because she can start making the Golden detractors look bad in the process.

I am posting questions trying to get opinions from other players. I am in no way definitive in my thoughts about if Golden was or wasn’t set up, I was trying to make sense of things that didn’t make sense to me. I don’t think it makes sense for someone to try to set Golden up because keeping Epi alive would have been a good distraction for the baddies to hide behind but someone setting him up makes more sense to me than him(or his team) killing Epi himself.
I didn’t name names about who was hounding him in the thread because, off the top of my head at that particular moment I couldn’t recall who it was. I usually play on my phone and jumping back and forth gets difficult…. and I don’t take many (if ANY) notes during mafia.
You and I have never played a mafia game together that I can recall and you are really off in your read of me and your interpretation of my posts.

Later in the second half of day 3:

Spoiler: show

Wilgy clads himself in armor. The sun shines off his helmet blinding the crowd as he grabs his sword and shield. A cloud covers the sun and the reflection dissipates. The crowd can now see that Wilgy's sword and shield are both Golden*

Bring it on. Sorsha, I've had abit to drink tonight. Why don't you join me and tell me who framed Roger Rabit (Golden)?

Vote registered for Sorsha

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Looks like Scotty has made a nice post about who may have framed Golden.

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

I'm reminded that DrWilgy had already seen something weird about Sorcha here, and might be thinking the same thing I am right now. She even throws in my thoughts on SVS and reywaS as fuel to the fire. How very nice.

….Again, just asking more questions. I guess I’m just getting stuck on something that I’m not going to get an answer on and just need to let go. It seems like some players were so adamant that Golden killed Epi that other options were just not being considered. That’s why I was looking into the set up or role powers having an influence.

Day 4. Golden was killed. lo and behold he was NOT baddie!

Spoiler: show

*Wilgy walks into the room of chattering. His cloths are dirty and he smells of alcohol, but there is confidence in his step. He approaches everyone and points a finger to Sorsha.*

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

Sorsha, the reason why I asked you a question so soon after you posted was due to your tone. You state, confidently, that Golden is being framed. Here's the kicker though, you didn't save him. You could've taken your vote off of tiny to save a person being framed, but you didnt. Why?

Also, what gave you the confidence in your tone? I don't believe you answered that question when I asked earlier?

What puzzle piece am I missing in Golden's case? And should I place my bets on you? Or against you?

I didn't save him because I was in no way confident that he was framed, however my tone sounded to you.

I'm still neutral/ unrecruited and unlike some playing have no problem with baddie hunting. That's why I was asking for ideas on who might have framed golden. I got answers that I pretty much expected: anyone could have been behind it really. Just because I expected that to be the answer doesn't mean I wouldn't ask the question though.

This entire time you've campaigning for finding Golden's framer, now you're backpedaling and saying you were in "no way confident" there was even a framer now that Golden was lynched and someone is on your ass?

You do not understand my posts in the way I meant them. Like I said before, we haven’t played together before so maybe you aren’t familiar with my play style. I’ll take responsibility for it not being clear, sometimes I just assume that people know what I mean.
-------------

This here is a player that wants to create no waves, and doesn't want to be caught red handed just in case she commits to the wrong decision. This can either be very noobish or very baddie-like. I don't know Sorcha's history as a player. Is she usually like this? Either way I'm reading her right now as bad bad bad.

Not that I expect anyone to come to my defense but I have played with many of these players before and if anyone ever says that I am a highly active/high poster then they are a liar! It usually does take me a while to get “into” a game…. I’m not lying low intentionally. And I am not bad either!

[bea]

fwiw - Sorsha was a late recruit for me last game. She was the last one if I remember correctly. Her style in that game is similar to this. She is playing like I expect her to play both for recruitement, and in general. Her meta seems to match.

That said, it's always worth keeping an eye on her. She can move seamlessly from not recruited to recruited till it's too late. And maybe this game she started differently. IDK.

But yea - her meta matches up to what I expect from her.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

As to Boomslang, Jay... Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?

Maybe. I can see players of any alignment responding incredulously to a logical breakdown like the one I employed. I've mulled over it for a night and at this point the most troubling Boomslang post in that exchange is the one Bullzeye highlighted:

I disagree. Now what you need to ask yourself is this: am I bad, or just stupid?

This statement is included somewhere in the Encyclopedia Baddietannica, at least in my experience.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also, I don't think players can ever just come in and shout they've been forced to vote or do something; they can try to signal it, at least. So MP heavily denying to have been forced doesn't fully detract me from finding the other version to be a plausible signal or tactic in dealing with a forced vote. In fact, a pee fountain sort of signaling.

Is there really any precedent for players abjectly denying that they were forced to so something they didn't want to do when that is in fact the truth? Couldn't they just ignore those comments to allow the theories to survive instead of putting a concerted effort into eliminating them?

I've flatly denied being forced to do things I was forced to do in many a game.

In some hosts games, the host punishes you if you let on that you have been forced, and if directly asked, you had best deny it. So denial does not mean much. I do not recall if these hosts are punishers or not, I try not to run afoul of their directives.

Just home, will read back to this AM.

I'll take your word for it, folks. This concept is from another planet for me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do not WANT to lynch neutrals. I never WANTED to lynch neutrals. But I would rather lynch a neutral than a civ. And when I voted for Golden, I did not suspect anyone of being on a baddie team. I changed my vote to the person I suspected of being bad after that. I am starting to feel like a broken record--but I feel like my words being twisted. And since I think one of you is bad, then it feels like you're intentionally manipulating the way you frame my thoughts.

Possibly. I see llama as one of the most likely recruitees in the game right now, and the nonchalance of "oh yeah, and LoRab" troubles me. I'll look into him more.

And one thing I would recommend to everyone is this: don't tell other people how to play the game. I don't think any of us are newbies and a lot of us have been playing in this extended community for a really long time. We don't need to be told how you think we should play.

You realize that you just violated your own rule to tell me that?

My intention is never to be condescending or tell people how they must play the game. I made a recommendation because I thought it was important, and I absolutely do not apologize for it. I'll do it again if I see fit. That's how I play the game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

EBWOP, fixing name in quote.

Spoiler: show

I do not WANT to lynch neutrals. I never WANTED to lynch neutrals. But I would rather lynch a neutral than a civ. And when I voted for Golden, I did not suspect anyone of being on a baddie team. I changed my vote to the person I suspected of being bad after that. I am starting to feel like a broken record--but I feel like my words being twisted. And since I think one of you is bad, then it feels like you're intentionally manipulating the way you frame my thoughts.

Possibly. I see llama as one of the most likely recruitees in the game right now, and the nonchalance of "oh yeah, and LoRab" troubles me. I'll look into him more.

And one thing I would recommend to everyone is this: don't tell other people how to play the game. I don't think any of us are newbies and a lot of us have been playing in this extended community for a really long time. We don't need to be told how you think we should play.

You realize that you just violated your own rule to tell me that?

My intention is never to be condescending or tell people how they must play the game. I made a recommendation because I thought it was important, and I absolutely do not apologize for it. I'll do it again if I see fit. That's how I play the game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also - I'm totally cute and fun to have around and I've been away forever and everyone is super happy I'm playing for sure!!

My fear is that this is totally true, and thus...

also also - I'm still unrecruited fwiw.

This is less likely. :P

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, see my above regarding Boomslang. He could be bad, but I don't think your disagreement with him right now proves anything. You seem to be getting very nit picky in your arguments, is this the norm for you? I've only played one game with you and my concern is that I know of your reputation, you would be considered a prize recruit.

I can understand why you'd perceive it to be nitpicky. It might have been. The method was nitpicky, but the main point I was trying to convey was important -- or at least I thought so. The entire discussion can be simplified to this: did Boomslang muck up a fake accusation against Golden, or did he not?

The norm for me is to be hyper-thorough and hyper-objective (even when I am being accused). My reputation on this website is pretty much _______________________.

I'm still trying to build some manner rapport with the regulars here; my methods are unique in this environment and I don't feel like I have had much influence in any game I've played yet. I think I'm an unattractive recruit most people don't really know me. It makes me feel awkward as such an active player.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to spend most of my Saturday outside. I'll be back to play Mafia later tonight.

LoRab, I changed my mind. I will apologize -- not for my style but for taking such offense. You suggested you were a bit cranky; so am I and I shouldn't show it in my play like I did. No hard feelings I hope?

[aapje]

I am Registering a vote for Sorsha

No you didn't.

Sorry I forgot to congratulate you as well Bea

I went back through Golden's posts after the failed lynch to see if he would mention any suspicions right after. He doesn't and the first player he goes after Bass and we all know how that turned out

Some people were talking about a tie. According to my count Golden was ahead by a vote. Did I miss something?
Day 1 short
Day 1 full
Day 2
Day 3

[aapje]

Hey DP I see you are reading this thread. Any chance of you participating?

[aapje]

My thoughts on some players who don't seem to be contributing a lot:
DP: If you aren't going to play, at least have the decency to ask for a replacement like DF did. You have literally added nothing of substance I wouldn't be opposed to lynching him. DP is getting a free pass so far and will likely make it far into the game. As much as I detest his playstyle, it's very effective at staying alive. Would make a great recruit because nobody can ever be arsed to lynch him.
DH: Looks like he is finally joining the game. About time if you ask me
MM: Didn't post at all during D3 but was around voting (at least 3 times by my count). Seems to be hinting that that was out of his control. Said he would contribute today.
Tranq: Hasn't posted since N2. Where the hell did he go? Hope he checks in again soon.

I hope I'll have time to read up on Boomslang, Sorsha and TB later today but until then I'm voting for DP because fuck that shit

[Bullzeye]

I am Registering a vote for Sorsha

No you didn't.

Sorry I forgot to congratulate you as well Bea

I went back through Golden's posts after the failed lynch to see if he would mention any suspicions right after. He doesn't and the first player he goes after Bass and we all know how that turned out

Some people were talking about a tie. According to my count Golden was ahead by a vote. Did I miss something?
Day 1 short
Day 1 full
Day 2
Day 3

Perhaps there was a vote that was placed originally but not re-done when the poll was replaced? I was basing my perceived tie on the poll being 6-6 when the thread got locked.

[S~V~S]

Bea, I am not sure what you want me to say. I was wrong, very hideously wrong. I read back and caught up last night, but there was not much more that I could say than what I did say

Thanks for your take on Sorsha; my experience is that Sorsha is direct, and not not flinch back from speaking her mind. And in the two posts that caught my eye, the one before and the other after Goldens lynch, she was pretty clearly pointing to me, IMO, but she was strangely reluctant to say so.

Before:

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Well my thought was that they killed epi to frame golden to set up a golden lynch the next day, once that didn't happen they have had to step up their accusations against him to get the lynch train going to golden.

I don't agree with the conclusions svs has come to on golden. I have to re read dh and Rey a bit. I was just throwing it out there to see what others are thinking on it.

I should add that I'm not 100% caught up... It's just too much to read so I'm sorry if this stuff was covered already.

The nice soft defending, the, "Hrm who COULD it be?" I actually picture her posing just like the "ponder" smiley.

After:

Wilgy clads himself in armor. The sun shines off his helmet blinding the crowd as he grabs his sword and shield. A cloud covers the sun and the reflection dissipates. The crowd can now see that Wilgy's sword and shield are both Golden*

Bring it on. Sorsha, I've had abit to drink tonight. Why don't you join me and tell me who framed Roger Rabit (Golden)?

Vote registered for Sorsha

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Looks like Scotty has made a nice post about who may have framed Golden.

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Gee, the post of Scotty's that she refers to has my name at the top in giant letters. It feels like she is trying to lead horses to water here. She seems to want people to reach this conclusion on their own as opposed to making a case and taking responsibility. Had she just come right out and said it, I would have felt a lot better about her, tbh. Sorsha & I may have had our moments over the years, but one thing I will always say about her is that when she thinks she is in the right (not right as in "correct" but "in the right" as in righteous sense) Sorsha flatly refuses to pull punches.

Punches are being pulled all over the place in these two posts, punches just flying everywhere, except directly at me. So I will take your take on it into consideration. Plus not sure how much of this is defensiveness on my part, although as I said, when she made that first post while Golden was still alive, it went through my mind that the next frame up was on the backburner, and it was me.

I am going to reread a few specific people today; and then discuss my thoughts on them. After the Golden thing, I am feeling kinda tender about having an opinion about anything and am in second guess central. But a few people have gotten my attention, so a reread is in order. As for lists, i won't do them. Especially in a game with a lot of factions, as this one is. I have a fairly good example of my reasons in MPs big rainbow post. My first reaction to that was not a warm, fuzzy, "Aw MP thinks I am not a baddie for once!". It was "OMFG, why is MP drawing a huge target on my back??"

Anyone who played back in the day on LP/TP/RM will get that right away. Times they are a changin', but in a game with more than one bad group, they ain't a changin' that much.

[S~V~S]

Also, I notice Wilgy voted without posting it

For me

Heres a screencap for posterity:

[S~V~S]

Also, I don't think players can ever just come in and shout they've been forced to vote or do something; they can try to signal it, at least. So MP heavily denying to have been forced doesn't fully detract me from finding the other version to be a plausible signal or tactic in dealing with a forced vote. In fact, a pee fountain sort of signaling.

Is there really any precedent for players abjectly denying that they were forced to so something they didn't want to do when that is in fact the truth? Couldn't they just ignore those comments to allow the theories to survive instead of putting a concerted effort into eliminating them?

I've flatly denied being forced to do things I was forced to do in many a game.

In some hosts games, the host punishes you if you let on that you have been forced, and if directly asked, you had best deny it. So denial does not mean much. I do not recall if these hosts are punishers or not, I try not to run afoul of their directives.

Just home, will read back to this AM.

I'll take your word for it, folks. This concept is from another planet for me.

In one game on The Piano, MP hosted it, I killed more people with a death compulsion than we did with NKs. As a host I love death curses; as a player I try to work around them very gingerly. And now that I think of it, The Hunger, which is in this game, and which killed me in a previous game, was a death compulsion as well. So I guess these hosts DO do that kind of thing. So grains of salt abounding.

Sorry for triple posts, I have to go for a bit later as the house I rent in is being sold, and real estate is bringing strangers to judge me today, so i gotta clean and get the dog out before they get here early PM. bbl.

[aapje]

I've reread all of Sorsha's posts. It's been quite a while since I've played with her but she sounds like I remember her. Although I can see her being on the team that killed Epi.

I will probably not be around until the end of the day and there is a good chance that Monday is the next time I will check in again. Sorry for that!

[Boomslang]

Daisy, if you liked Angry Orchard, then you'll love Ace Perry Cider. Much crisper, less sweet, highly recommended.

Wanted to chime in on the Sorsha discussion, because I haven't really looked at it too much.

There's a lot of early uncertainty tied to her previously announced absence from the thread, which is fine. The most pressing thing she comments on is her own survival in the early days; again, not to be unexpected, especially in an unrecruited stage.

Day two she starts to get a lot more outwardly focused. Talks about how leaving the Golden-Epi disagreement in the thread would be a good thing for baddies to hide behind, but stays wishy-washy when it comes to determining lynch subjects. Votes TinyBubbles for the drive-by, then does a bit of a NO U on TH when she's called out on it.

She then goes on a tangent about Golden being set up, which doesn't make sense to me; Golden claimed he had succeeded in baiting the baddies, he wasn't claiming a setup. I find this interesting because it seems very unlikely but becomes a focus of thread discussion, much like the Golden-Epi back and forth she feared would give baddies a place to hide earlier. And she doesn't really follow up on that suspicion because she votes bubbles again.

I think an is indeed worthy here.