Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (End Game)

[Tangrowth]

I'm going to go look at Devin's posts now.

[LoRab]

Time is growing important, since we are already within the interval in which the Judge can lockdown this place - he's been vigilent before, but so far he's not quick to draw the curtains; can this mean he's not content or approving with the main wagons and/or doesn't want to shortcircuit the EoD? Could be.

There's a huge difference, imho, between ending day early and locking down the thread. One ends discussion--the other does not. And ending night early is a mixed bag (and different entirely). Either of those actions could have either good or bad strategy behind them. Without saying so explicitly, you seem to imply that the prior lockdown was also connected to his role. Which makes me wonder.

Also noting that you earlier posted about the number of baddies and added an extra person to one of the baddie teams in your count. Which could increase paranoia and is a tactic oft used by the evil (make things seem worse than they are).

Starting to wonder if your posting is intentional and subtle misdirection.

What am I misdirecting towards? How or where did I imply that "the prior lockdown was also connected to his [err The Judge?] role"? The prior lockdown was Ubzargan's. What I implied is that, compared to Ubzargan who most likely reveled in locking the thread at a point of a two-way tie, Judge seems much more cautious. I also implied by his vigilence that he's clearly been active and responsive with his past actions, so I do not doubt he'd be ready to lockdown this Day, if he sees fit, but the fact that he hasn't yet is further implication of his cautious view on the current development.

Also, yeah, I can't count properly. Oooo, evil.

It read to me like you were creating an association with all prior lynches that included an aspect of closedness. And you were not painting a picture of caution in general, in fact you even said that he was quick to draw prior to this.

And the sarcasm in the "oooo, evil" response does not lesson suspicion. It actually makes it a smidge pingier on the suspiciometer. Blowing off suspicion is often a thing baddies do.

Not ready to lynch you, but definitely eyeballing you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I apologize for anything I say over the next couple hours. The Cincinnati Bengals are happening on my screen.

[Tangrowth]

LoRab, what do you think of Boomslang, Sorsha, and TinyBubbles?

[Tangrowth]

Jay, what do you make of Boomslang's attempts to hunt today more heavily compared with previously?

[Roxy]

I am pushing the case because it's the one I feel the most strongly about. I don't care if other players don't see it. I've entertained a number of perspectives on the matter and still feel this way.

He probably won't be lynched at this point because nobody seems to agree with me. So if my baddie strategy is to smear Boomslang, then I suck at it.

Yo JJJ if you're smearing Boomslang, then I'm smearing Sorsha. Dealio?

I have read Dr W's and your points on Sorsha. I do think they were pretty good but I thought SVS's point about her leading people to a certain view without actually pointing the finger was a good catch.
I know she is a great player. I am glad she can finally give attention to the game. But I am actually agreeing with what was brought up.

The only draw back is how fast the first votes happened. I am going to finish reading to see if Sorsha has made any more of a defense.

[Roxy]

Let's talk about some other players, shall we?

How about Devin, Tranq, aapje, and unfurl?

Devin, Tranq, unfurl, and BWT just jumped onto Sorsha. What do players think of their vote explanations? I'll take a look at them myself and let you all know.

aapje seems content to continue waiting on his baddie hunt, even though it's Day 4 and each team is clearly cemented now, and focus entirely on low posters. I can entirely relate with why he's fixating on them, but does anyone else find this disconcerting?

I have mentioned Devin last lynch which he ignored completely and I mentioned his vote again today. My nose def twitches with him.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, what do you make of Boomslang's attempts to hunt today more heavily compared with previously?

I wanted to be inspired, but he seemed to focus primarily on people who either aren't posting much right now or never were posting much. It's still very easy content to throw into the thread when the feeling of need for content is there.

[LoRab]

LoRab, what do you think of Boomslang, Sorsha, and TinyBubbles?

Boomslang I have no idea--I don't know them and don't have a sense of their play.

Sorsha reads neutral to me.

TinyBubbles, I feel like the case against her is too similar to what got her similarly lynched in Angry Birds where she was civ. So don't really know, but hesitant to think bad.

[Marmot]

who should I vote for?

Tell me what you look for in a candidate and I'll give you some ideas about which platform suits you best.

someone with alliterative usernames.

Ah shit.

[Roxy]

Hey Rox, I have a few more questions for you, whenever you get a chance.

1) You seemed intent to really baddie hunt going into this phase and I feel like you've been one of the players delivering on this promise, but I'm curious to know even more about what you're thinking. Who are your top 5 (or a similar number, if that's inconvenient) suspects for mafia recruiters/recruitees at this time and why?
2) What are your current thoughts on BWT? How heavily or slightly do you suspect him at this time and why?
3) What are your current thoughts on Boomslang? Have you stated any? If so, I apologize, but I cannot recall yours off hand.
4) What are your current thoughts on unfurl? I know you've come to her defense earlier. What do you think of her Sorsha vote today?

We both approach mafia from very different mindsets, so I think it'll behoove us to engage each other in conversation and consider the other player's perspective. Two heads are better than one!

So far, I feel like we've probably been finding each other shifty for not understanding where the other is coming from, which is what's causing us to eyeball each other (yet not too heavily) off and on during this game.

I'd like to ask unfurl the same first three questions.

This will have to wait until after the lynch it is my primary focus before I run out of time. Sorry it is what it is.

[Tangrowth]

Rox, don't sweat it. That's totally fine.

[Roxy]

Roxy, how do you feel about the votes for TinyBubbles?

I have a reason for asking Roxy specifically.

I don't want to answer until I know the reasons. But also fyi I have previously stated my opinion to Bubbles about her andher posts.

Standstill!

The question sort of loses its value if you already know the reason for it. It's a minor point either way so screw it: I wanted to see if you felt Bubbles represented an "easy lynch" akin to your perspectives of Bass and Boomslang and thus gauge your reaction to its hasty development.

I had already made my point about Bubbles since her invested comment. What I don't like about today is Scotty saying she has until 9 pm to post is crazy as others are in different time zones and goodness knows we all have our own unique schedules.

[Marmot]

Rox, why are you fixating on high posters? Can't you make the same mirrored argument about low posters?

When I was saying earlier that we should consider everyone as recruited/recruitee, I was including high and low posters. I'm all for discussing them with you, but I personally do not have any strong reason to believe any of the top 5 or so high posters are recruited at this time. You seem to think that Jay is. Do you think any of the others are?

It's entirely possible that no "high" posters are recruited at this time. It's also possible that one is, whether mafia or civilian. Anything is possible. At this time, Metalmarsh89 seems most likely to me as a mafia recruit, as evidenced by my list.

Why? And what the fuck does your list even say about this?

Overreaction?

I don't have any reason to suspect you heavily at this time; you are in the light orange section of my rainbow list, but you're the lowest of the top 5 posters. Rox asked me about high posters so that's what I told her. I can't make heads or tails of your gameplay, but I do think you're more apt to be recruited/recruiter at this time than me (duh), Jay, Rico, and DH. I don't have a strong assertion of suspicion of you by which to back that up; in fact, it's the weakest possible, but I was asked, so.

Do you have any suspicions?

Is it an overreaction? Perhaps. But I don't like rainbow lists in general (and I've made this very clear before), and now you've suggested that your list points to me as most likely to be a mafia recruit. How did you come to this conclusion?

No, I don't have any suspicions.

[Roxy]

Rox, why are you fixating on high posters? Can't you make the same mirrored argument about low posters?

When I was saying earlier that we should consider everyone as recruited/recruitee, I was including high and low posters. I'm all for discussing them with you, but I personally do not have any strong reason to believe any of the top 5 or so high posters are recruited at this time. You seem to think that Jay is. Do you think any of the others are?

It's entirely possible that no "high" posters are recruited at this time. It's also possible that one is, whether mafia or civilian. Anything is possible. At this time, Metalmarsh89 seems most likely to me as a mafia recruit, as evidenced by my list.

Because I feel the high posters are never going to look at themselves so someone should don't you think? I am not fixated on them but I do want to know why you listed high posters only as poss Neutral or Civvie?
My fear this game is people will be lead by a strong thread presence and continue to lynch whoever seems the most talked about instead of everyone contributing their own perspective on what is happening in the thread.

[Ricochet]

Time is growing important, since we are already within the interval in which the Judge can lockdown this place - he's been vigilent before, but so far he's not quick to draw the curtains; can this mean he's not content or approving with the main wagons and/or doesn't want to shortcircuit the EoD? Could be.

There's a huge difference, imho, between ending day early and locking down the thread. One ends discussion--the other does not. And ending night early is a mixed bag (and different entirely). Either of those actions could have either good or bad strategy behind them. Without saying so explicitly, you seem to imply that the prior lockdown was also connected to his role. Which makes me wonder.

Also noting that you earlier posted about the number of baddies and added an extra person to one of the baddie teams in your count. Which could increase paranoia and is a tactic oft used by the evil (make things seem worse than they are).

Starting to wonder if your posting is intentional and subtle misdirection.

What am I misdirecting towards? How or where did I imply that "the prior lockdown was also connected to his [err The Judge?] role"? The prior lockdown was Ubzargan's. What I implied is that, compared to Ubzargan who most likely reveled in locking the thread at a point of a two-way tie, Judge seems much more cautious. I also implied by his vigilence that he's clearly been active and responsive with his past actions, so I do not doubt he'd be ready to lockdown this Day, if he sees fit, but the fact that he hasn't yet is further implication of his cautious view on the current development.

Also, yeah, I can't count properly. Oooo, evil.

It read to me like you were creating an association with all prior lynches that included an aspect of closedness. And you were not painting a picture of caution in general, in fact you even said that he was quick to draw prior to this.

And the sarcasm in the "oooo, evil" response does not lesson suspicion. It actually makes it a smidge pingier on the suspiciometer. Blowing off suspicion is often a thing baddies do.

Not ready to lynch you, but definitely eyeballing you.

All lynches except D2 were facilitated by tallies being frozen or shut down. This is factual. If the Judge will lockdown this Day at any point until EoD, he will technically facilitate a lynch result by shutting down activity. Huge association there, what can I say.
All of the Judge's previous actions were quick. This is factual. You are correct I didn't call the Judge cautious in general, because I didn't. I called him cautious with using his current lockdown. It is only you who say I painted a picture of caution in general.

Your sentence about blowing off suspicion being a baddie trait is hypocritical, considering half the times you blow off suspicions on you with Eye-me-all-you-wants, twirls and claims that your game is misunderstood. Besides, if there's anything I'm blowing, it's ridiculous suspicions, not suspicions per se. Just to prove that, I also happened to count the civ teams having an extra member, before the Hosts actually confirmed that recruiting as finalized. Is that supposed to mean, by contrast, that I'm giving civs hope? Is that supposed to mean anything, just like me accidentally writing one extra baddie in a camp is supposed to mean anything? Of course not. Me not getting my mechanics talk or facts/stats check always accurate is no real surprise. Smidge pinge away.

[Roxy]

Rox, you want to talk about higher posters. What about reywaS? He currently is #6. What do you think of him?

I did not like his non reaction to the Golden lynch and his disappearance after. I really felt he shifted to Golden with a progression - yes - but it did not *feel* right to me. I know you will think that is not clear but something about the way posted - tone- mixed with vibe. Its all I got.

[Roxy]

I got about another 75 posts or more to read but I need munchkins.

I will finish up after.

They prefer to be called "little people" fyi

Not these delicious morsels:

[Ricochet]

There's a huge difference, imho, between ending day early and locking down the thread. One ends discussion--the other does not.

Also, what sources do you have on this?

The D3 lockdown closed the thread, hence ending discussion along with voting until EoD (due to the timing of the lockdown). So it must mean that you say that ending a Day early doesn't end discussion.

Yet the previous end of a phase, as a mechanic, was a night end (Night 3), which ended as soon as the Judge's action was validated. It ended discussion, voting for positions and sending actions. A skip to the next phase (D4) followed.

That would mean the same mechanics apply for ending a Day early. The reason why D1 did not end early properly was because the Hosts couldn't validate the Judge's action in real time. That doesn't mean his action wasn't validated - all votes and actions after he sent his action were invalidated. Hence that would mean the early end would have ended discussion, as well, producing a skip to the next phase (N2).

So no idea what you're crafting suspicions out of or grasping at.

[Roxy]

nutella, thanks for the list! How much more strongly do you feel about DH and rey than those in the category above?

Not much. My views on lots of players are waffling tbh. I would say that DH and Rey are probably my strongest suspects though. And I'm becoming more interested in players like Tranq, Devin, and aapje who have been blendy/not contributing much/jumping on bandwagons.

I agree with you that Devin's and Tranq's votes for Sorsha are the pingiest and I generally do not like how quickly that bandwagon caught on. I'm glad JJJ shared an alternate perspective on her as I didn't really understand most of the points against her and have found it all very fishy. Part of me wonders if Bubbles has baddie teammates that tagged onto the Sorsha wagon, and part of me wonders if the Bubbles wagon is similarly manufactured (perhaps, going down the chain, as a reaction to Boomslang votes, though I suspect him less now).

@Dom: Fair enough, I just thought it was weird that you merely said "I need to think more" instead of a particular reaction to Golden's flip and the night-skip. I'm not trying to say that you haven't contributed, I'm just curious what more of your thoughts and reactions have been.

2.) I hope BR and LC do not take offense to this as I hope other players don't as well but do I really think BR would put Boomslang as a recruiter? No I don't. Even if they random'ed the roles I believe there was more than one or two tweaks. I do it in games I host.

That's bullshit and you know it. They randomized the roles. If that's the way you've done it you should feel bad, it's cliquey and disrespectful to assume that certain players can't handle certain roles. And you called ME cliquey. :\

So you think they would leave (and this is just an example) say Bubbles in a recruitment role even though she is fairly new to mafia, has never played a recruitment game before?

I would not. Sorry if that is elitist, cliquey or whatever but I call it realistic. I think it would be an unfair expectation to put on any newbish player to mafia and never played this type of game before.

Christ I do sound elitist

[thellama73]

Sorry I haven't been around today guys. My internet has been dicey. I am catching up now.

[Principal Skinner]

no one wants to play with me

[Scotty]

So I'm real busy right now but true to word Tiny hasn't posted so I'm switching my vote to her.

Hope she comes out baddie! Sorry if not, tiny!

[Roxy]

Have already mentioned my issues with this point but I will also say I'm interested in how you will defend it. You've literally gone from accusing people of cliquey exclusionary behaviour to making a very cliquey post yourself. Dom's sarcasm had a decent point, if you want to argue that there are certain players more likely to have been given recruiter roles, you're definitely in that category.

Like I tried to explain up there - that is not what I am saying at all.
I do not think the Hosts cherry picked roles. But I also do not think that they would be so unfair as to say put Bubbles as recruiter being so new to mafia and never having played a game like this before. Not that they wouldn't put say DP or someone else like that who has played a recruitment game. Understand?

still sounds elitist. fuck it. I stand by my thoughts on fairness to newbs. maybe I think way overboard where they are concerned I think it is the mom in me.

[Tangrowth]

Devin the Omniscient - ISO

Spoiler: show

The assertion that there is irrational action is always rooted in an evaluation of a scale of values different from our own. Whoever says that irrationality plays a role in human action is merely saying that his fellow men behave in a way that he does not consider correct.

Now, regarding low posters: My feeling is that they are less likely to be recruited, and therefore more likely to remain unaligned. Not ideal choices for lynches, especially later in the game. On Day 1, however, they are just as likely to be a recruiter as anyone else, so if we're going to go after them, we should do it sooner rather than later.

Being a low poster right now, I have to disagree. There are already 14 pages of discussion (for me, at least), and from what little I've read so far there are too many good points being brought up to just go after low posters.

RE BWT: I've seen him leave wiggle room plenty of times before this. I've even done this myself lots of times in previous games, especially as a baddie (and as a civvie-attacking indie). That last part being said, I do agree that BWT does get lynched a lot regardless of alignment for stating wiggly-roomy type statements such as this. But I do want to keep an eye on going forward.

Linkie: MP and llama beat me to this

Here is Devin's first post (disregarding a 'yay game' post made beforehand).

Orange: Devin notes that many good points are being brought up to consider low posters. This is interesting to consider now on Day 4, since Devin has brought very little analysis to the table.

Yellow: I think it's good that Devin chimed in with a meta claim for BWT, confirming his behavior is within meta, but it's interesting to note that Devin claims he has done it often in previous games, especially as mafia. He says that BWT is often (mis)lynched for such behavior but that he wants to keep an eye on him. One could argue that Devin was trying to keep an easy option open for his vote later, despite soft defending BWT's behavior on the one hand.

Spoiler: show

At this moment, the players that I'm eyeballing the most are:

unfurl, for 13 posts that contribute practically nothing (no offense intended) to the hunt or game mechanics discussion, and for an attitude that seems very cheeky, sarcastic, and nonchalant. It's possible that she is a recruiter or recruited that isn't willing to open up the low poster discussion for the reasons I mentioned, although it seems clear that she has no intention to open up any avenue of discussion. Even if she isn't recruited or recruiter of a nefarious nature, that is a dangerous mindset, and considering 28 of us are neutral, she may receive my vote purely for that unwillingness.

Ricochet, for a starting suspicion on Llama that seems forced and out of character with regards to his typical analysis-driven self. However, I admit it's possible that his feelings are arising purely from clear bias, which he also seems willing to even admit. Nonetheless, I have not seen the same Rico this game that I saw in Watchmen, who was just a purely analytical machine.

Any players with 5 posts or less at this time (I'm widening my field), who are:

Russtifinko 5
Tranq 5
LoRab 4
nutella 4
Scotty 4
DFaraday 3
DisgruntledPorcupine 3
Typhoony 3
Bass_the_Clever 2
Canucklehead 2
Spacedaisy 2
Devin the Omniscient 1
DrWilgy 1
Sorsha 1

You know I am busy, and that this is why I couldn't join Angry Bird Mafia, too. I will do my best to stay on top of things, but it will be difficult with such a high posting game.

Devin responds to my focus on low posters by saying he's busy and that I know he is (this is true), but that it will be difficult to stay on the top of the game. Not much I can get out of this.

Spoiler: show

Devin, I understand. Like I noted before, I'm not trying to say that I think people don't have lives. I also realize that the game just started and that it's a behemoth. I also have a life, quite a busy one at that... I have a lot to do today, yet I'm here, against my better judgment. It's a fun ass game and I wanted to be involved in at least some of Day 1, since I knew I'd be gone a lot of today and tomorrow.

I just am hoping to get all of the players who have yet to contribute, whom I'm not faulting for any reason, to do so, that's all. I also have specific reasoning that you may or may not have seen here for why I think low posters are more relevant to hunt in this game than in other regular mafia setups.

I didn't mean for that to sound accusatory or anything harsh, bud. We all know that everyone playing this has a life outside of this. That's the primary reason I don't want to go after low posters. Secondly, there's now 15 pages worth of reading for me to do in order to catch up. I know I'm not the only one there, so it may be just that we have a ton to catch up on that we're not able to post as much. Thirdly, there are now 15 pages of discussion. Surely we can find something better to go on than just low posters

No hard feelings here, man
I will elaborate further when I can. For now, I have a Paul project to work on

He states again that he doesn't want to target low posters specifically and that "surely" we can find something better to base votes on. A fair enough point, but he still hasn't elaborated on what the "good points" were that everyone was making. Vagueness abound.

Spoiler: show

MM is voting for me, dontcha get it yet?

How do you know that?

I see reasons to vote for Golden, but I'll let things play out. I also have a reason not to vote for him.

Same.

Here Devin echoes what MM says about having reasons to vote and not vote Golden, yet he doesn't state them.

Spoiler: show

Whelp, I feel pretty current right now. Only thing I have to add is that I have a list of people I will not be voting for today. No idea who I will vote for though

Linki: I've been feeling out a genuine Golden, so I'll be intrigued to see where this goes tomorrow.

Triple linki

Devin says he is feeling a genuine Golden, but doesn't explain why. He says he has a list of people he won't be voting for, but doesn't share it. And he says he has no idea who he will vote for.

Could it be any more vague?

Spoiler: show

After I'm gone, lynch epi please. Thanks.

I won't be voting for either of you.

Devin says he won't be voting for either Golden or Epi. Absolutely no reason given again.

Spoiler: show

Ok people this is clearly not a LMS game. Allow me to demonstrate...

From the hosts posts:
"Win Conditions

Civvie group 1 needs to defeat baddie group 1 and 2
Civvie group 2 needs to defeat baddie group 1 and 2
Baddie group 1 needs to defeat civvie group 1 and baddie group 2
Baddie group 2 needs to defeat civvie group 2 and baddie group 1"

So Civvie group 1 can win with Civvie group 2, and they both share the same enemies. In fact their win cons are exactly the same which makes them one standard civ team in every sense of the word. The only difference is only ones of the baddie teams is out to kill them.

Additionally, they set the teams up like a traditional civ team, meaning the recruiters for the civ team get limited amount of btsc, see the below quite from the hosts posts...

"If someone gets recruited, do they gain BTSC with the Leader?

Some Civvies get BTSC with the Leader, but it is a very limited number because too much Civvie BTSC would ruin the game. Baddies always get BTSC with their recruits.."

I am rethinking my bwt vote at the moment, leaning towards one of these people who keep billing this as a no civ game when it has been made clear by the hosts in multiple ways that there are civ aligned recruiters.

I agree 101% And I'm eyeballing most everyone who is trying to say that it is an LMS game and not a good vs. evil game. It clearly is. More on this and my suspicions later.

Devin agrees with Daisy and says that he is eyeballing those who view the game as an LMS game. No names given. He says he will elaborate upon his suspicions later, which would be great, since he hasn't said anything to back up any of his assertions thus far.

Spoiler: show

I agree with your second statement Boomslang.

Right now the fore runner for my vote is probably bwt. The way he jumped on the JJJ thing about golden using the word but, then back pedaled out of it, followed by him jumping into MP's case for voting a low poster, I'm just feeling all kinds of sketch from him right now.

I went away from Golden because I felt the explanation he offered me when I questioned him about it seemed fairly reasonable, and I overlooked/missed an earlier post from him where he further explained his initial response to the whole SVS thing.

I think in a game this large, there's just too much unknown to really be sure we're going to hit a target on Day 1. So I feel more comfortable voting for someone who is not contributing to the game that significantly. I know it takes some people time to really get into games, and I understand that. But in a game this large, I'd rather it be more about people actively participating and trying to get involved early on.

Now Day 2 on the other hand, I would start to look for more concrete reasons to lynch someone than "a low poster".

You are not making me feel better about you, BWT. I agree that it is always the norm to have more concrete evidence to go on in Day 2. But there is now almost 30 pages of discussion to sift through on this Day 1, and that is just too much info to ignore and go with a random or a low poster.
Not only this, but I get the feeling that you are avoiding putting yourself out there into some of the more prominent discussions going on. Your "on-the-fence" (as someone other than you referred to it) comment RE:Golden is what pinged me immediately. That felt almost identical to something you said in Bioshock, and we lynched you Day 1 as a baddie. I wanted to get away from that and go after someone referring to this game as LMS (I still might if enough people vote that rout), but I just can't get this out of my mind. So I'm going meta for now and voting for you. I will check back in later before the day ends, but I have to disappear now that I've caught up. I REALLY need to work, as I am off for most of next week.

DON"T HATE ME DAVID!

Linki: Thank you for clarifying, Timmer. That makes me feel better about you individually for now. I understand that currently a huge % of us are neutral and that that type of game is typically LMS. I just feel that playing this game as if it is LMS could really fuck us when we're recruited. I could see the same being argued for playing it as good vs. evil, but I'll stand by that type of (familiar) game play

Guess what? Devin suddenly feels worse about BWT. This seems incredibly opportunistic, and I even stated way back after BWT's no lynch that Devin's vote looked shadiest. Devin asserts that BWT is unwilling to get involved in discussion, which actually applies more to him than it did BWT at this stage. He then drops in a reference to Bioshock (a game I hosted 2 years ago) saying that BWT's behavior seemed similar, but doesn't explain specifics.

Spoiler: show

Posting the poll tally would be good, but if voting will stay changeable, it won't be a fully accurate reflection of how votes evolved, especially if things get manipulated (granted, there won't be another early day end until we return to position 1).

I'm gonna double-check MM's list in a bit.

Please do. I'm confident in my checks through everyone's posts (those I needed to check), but the results weren't what I expected. There was so much chatter about BWT, I thought he would have had the most votes, not unfurl.

One thing I noticed when following along was how long it took for the remainder of the bet votes to pile on. I'm not surprised at all that mine was the only one to go through if the day ended at 5: something.

This is an interesting comment -- not sure what to make of it.

Spoiler: show

@MP - I ended up going with bwt because I went back to read his posts that were pinging people. The more I looked over them the more they reminded me of Bioshock. I thought that this seemed like the best possibility for getting him early on as a baddie again.
That being said, on a friendly level I'm glad he made it past Day 1 (and Night 1 for that matter)

RIP Epig and Typh

In response to an inquiry by me as to why he voted for BWT, Devin says this, dropping the Bioshock line again, but not elaborating further.

Spoiler: show

Why would MP go out of his way to say Daisy wouldn't make a good recruit? If course she would make a good recruit. His response was completely unnecessary. Looks like a massive over correction to me. Either he has already recruited her or he intends to. MP has a good chance of receiving my vote today.

I can get behind an MP lynch

Can you get in front of or in the middle of it, though?

Sure

But this was just to mess with him and make light of the situation. I will not be voting for MP today.

Devin jokes about voting for me when heat is being applied heavily in my direction around the first half of D2, but later qualifies that he was joking, and won't vote for me. No reason given.

Spoiler: show

MP is responding with threats now? "If you vote for me, I will vote for you"
That is atypical of him. Plus I don't like being threatened. Still some time left, assuming we actually have a 48 hour day, but MP looks no good to me.

You really think MP's response was out of character?
You think Alex being suspected, overreacting, and being rather unreasonable in the thread is unusual????
I would be suspicious if he DIDN'T do that!

1000% this.

forgot to mention this yesterday. I arrived in Pittsburgh last night to visit with some friends for the next 3 days. I'll try to take advantage of my time away from work to keep up

He agrees with Dom's assertions regarding my responses to Llama. Not sure why he didn't just say something about it to begin with.

Spoiler: show

I'm going to go ahead and place my vote on bass to help MP out. To me he sounds like genuine, frustrated, overreacting, emotional, explosive, f u MP (Don't take any of these to heart buddy ) and I'd hate to see him go out for it yet again. Also, I like Golden's "case" on bass. :parrotsmilie:

Bass, put it like this.

You theorised that the recruiters were likely to be people who are known for always participating fully. That might take the heat of you as being a recruiter. I don't think you would be likely to make that statement if you were a civilian recruiter. You might if you were a baddie recruiter. I saw that statement as being likely neutral.

But, who is more likely to recruit the person admitting they aren't reading the thread?

It sounds a bit mean, but you've kind of admitted it yourself. You wouldn't make a great recruit. At least, not for the civilians who need to solve the game. But someone like that can also be very hard to lynch. Not a bad candidate for a baddie recruit.

In any event, with you I see a worst case scenario of being neutral, and that is ok with me. I'm trying to avoid lynching people who are civs. I don't think you are civ.

Before anyone asks, this is what I'm referring to.

Orange: Devin casts his D2 vote for Bass to help me out, citing several adjectives to characterize my behavior (finally!), and claims that he doesn't want me to leave the game after a bout of incredible frustration (again) -- to be fair, Devin is referencing the fact that in many of the games we've played together, I've had similar moments of frustration and emotion amid intense suspicion surrounding me. In those situations, and vice versa since Devin's meta generally attracted some attention in his past games, he and I were typically quick to defend each other. So the fact that he comes to my defense again here for the same behavior is at least consistent with what he's done in prior games, mostly as civilian (off hand, Devin was definitely civilian in previous games we've played together, maybe even all of them, but I'm unsure).

Yellow: Devin cites a post by Golden for his vote on Bass, yet also mentioned that he was voting for Bass to "help me out".

Spoiler: show

Devin - I love the guy, but he's hardly posted any substantive content, and failed to deliver on questions I asked him from early in the game. What do folks think of him?

Yeah I'm sorry about this. I'm trying to go through and see if I missed anything I need to address before my friends and I head out for an afternoon full of activities. Please let me know what questions I missed or forgot to respond to. I am in way over my head in this game but I don't want to be replaced and I don't want it to be the reason that I skate by (hopefully people understand what I mean by this and don't put words in my mouth).

In response to me calling him out and trying to get opinions on him, Devin seems apologetic, cites that he is busy (which, again, I can attest to, particularly since he's a personal friend of mine outside the game), and is willing to address any questions he missed or forgot to respond to. Which is a great sentiment... only, he's never really elaborated upon any of the assertions he made in previous posts (except for throwing out a handful of adjectives describing my behavior): such as why he wouldn't vote for either Golden or Epi, what exactly was suspicious about BWT in Bioshock and why he has not mentioned the suspicion again even once since his D1 vote and my questioning of him, etc.

Spoiler: show

Agreed. Voting Golden He is the subject/cause of 90% of my catch up.

Now check this out. Devin votes for Golden on D3, without posting practically any content, because "he is the subject/cause of 90% of my catch up". Yet Devin said earlier he wouldn't vote for either Golden or Epi, never explained why, and has now apparently done a 180, yet again without any explanation. This absolutely must be explained. Oh, but wait, Devin gave reasons?

Spoiler: show

REASONS:

Thank you, Lorab. No-one should feel they are obligated to give me a pass for a day, but my self-vote definitely came from a place of feeling helpless because it felt like I already had a whole bundle of guaranteed votes plus I wasn't going to be around to defend.

Plus, I've realised that I can turn this around by actually catching Azura, and my lynch is not necessarily inevitable, so now that's what I'm focussed on. If its someone like rey, and they are lynched and flip, it would then be obvious it isn't me killing epi.

I would ask those who are less inclined to feel absolutely certain of me, like lorab and timmer, to consider giving me a pass today given I won't be around a whole lot more for robust conversation and defence. I ask this because I get the strong sense that (because I won't be around) I'm going to be the easy location for drive by votes at end of day.

It's ultimately up to you guys, but if you really want to lynch me more on a hunch or being the 'best option' than anything else, I'd really like if it can be on a day where I can have proper conversation around it, more than I'll be able to today.

Are you shitting me, Golden? So...give you a pass and lynch me instead...is that it?

For fuck's sake, man.

Actually, everyone please take Golden's advice and give him a pass because he isn't going to be around to defend himself anymore than he already is.

Seriously, lynch me. I really don't think that I was ready to come back to mafia yet...especially not in such a large game. I think I probably should have started with a small game. I'm getting way too worked up and seeing this post has really grated on my nerves.

Vote: reywaS and I urge the rest of you to do the same.

^^^ Focus on the Golden quote here.

I have got to say that today has been the MOST emotionally manipulative day I have ever read, lol.

I am happy with my vote where it is.

Hey Boomslang!

Vote Boomslang

aapje is going to murder me

I'm sorry, I didn't think I had to defend my points on Golden when the guy is literally asking to be lynched. That's all I needed to know for today, honestly.
*votes Golden*

Here are his "reasons", where he just quotes four posts (one each by Golden himself, reywaS, S~V~S, and Boomslang) and adds no original thinking whatsoever.

Spoiler: show

Also, skimmed through 13 pages and saw nothing for the Boomslang votes. Please halp

Click on my post history and find the big ISO from today.

Much appreciated, although I'm not sure how I missed that one before :/

I get the arguments there, but I feel more comfortable with my vote being where it is.

Is Golden being such a distraction entirely his fault? What of the people forcing him into that position including Epignosis?

Who is forcing him into this position. He has been posting and acting the same way since the whole back and forth with Epi started, and I would argue that not even Epi "forced" him to behave that way. This is supposed to be a game, and when you start being emotionally manipulative, you've taken it too far.
Also, Golden had quite a bit more votes before voting for himself on 2 separate occasions during this day phase. That alone makes me feel great about my vote.

Lots of reasons too bad none are yours.

MP - what are you on about? Your vote looks shady as all get out.

I'm a parrot, this is know
I demand a parrot smilie!!!

Well, I'm absolutely bad. Go ahead and vote for me. Golden and I are baddie teammates. I'm 100% serious. I'm voting Golden because I've sloppily tried to bus him and you all caught me. Nice job!

Don't start that crap now. It doesn't work. I've tried
wefewence cwapface mafia

Also, normal, insane MP is normal Will not be voting for him any time soon.

Orange: Devin says he "gets the arguments" with Boomslang, but feels more comfortable with his vote where it is (Golden). But he's never explained why. Argh!!

Yellow: Devin argues that Golden has not been forced into any position, that being emotionally manipulative is too far, and that Epi never even contributed to Golden being in any position. So why then did Devin never want to vote for Golden or Epi before???! This is alarmingly inconsistent.

Red: Devin defends me against Rox during my crazy D3 antics, saying "insane" MP = normal MP.

Spoiler: show

Who is forcing him into this position. He has been posting and acting the same way since the whole back and forth with Epi started, and I would argue that not even Epi "forced" him to behave that way. This is supposed to be a game, and when you start being emotionally manipulative, you've taken it too far.
Also, Golden had quite a bit more votes before voting for himself on 2 separate occasions during this day phase. That alone makes me feel great about my vote.

This should have been written in bullsuit brown.

Because it's bullsuit.

You're full of suit

I call Devin out on the Yellow just above, calling it bullsuit, but he responds with a jokey response saying I'm full of "suit". Was Devin just hoping I'd drop the accusation or did he not realize I was being serious? I wish I had pushed him more on this, but this ISO should at least get him to come out and play.

Spoiler: show

Wording corrections:

He says that Golden has been acting emotionally manipulative all game, and no one spurred that on. You say "no one spurred that on." I said no one "forced him." Huge difference. Obviously it was in response to someone. But he could have taken a better approach. Plus Golden had votes on him before self-voting, which looked like a more suspicious situation. Yup

Devin hasn't offered much to the party so far, and his explanation for the vote is a very simple one. Also very lazy.

"Lazy?" Psh. Try busy.

Hope to finish this up tomorrow with Boom, who I think just voted out of survival' sake (which in and of itself is funny because he voted himself as a joke and look where it got him)

I would have done the same in his shoes.

Note here that Devin went out of his way to say he would have saved himself if he were in Boomslang's shoes. This is important because of the following few posts he makes.

Spoiler: show

I agree. Boomslang will not be getting my vote.

Placeholder placed

Devin says that Boomslang will not receive his D4 vote, but doesn't explain why. And votes himself as a "placeholder".

Spoiler: show

Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!

In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.

Yup. I was planning to change my vote to Sorsha and just did. Scotty has some compelling arguments in his mega post. But it was a Wilgy post that made me want to vote for Sorsha to begin with. Let me see if I can find it.

Linki: mega post number 2.

Now, once Scotty came out with his Sorsha ISO and I placed my support, Devin says that he was "planning" to change his vote to Sorsha. If so, why didn't he mention it earlier? He echoes that Scotty has compelling arguments, but never says what is so compelling about them, or points to any specifics.

To be fair, he does finally point to a specific with the DrWilgy post in his most recent post:

Spoiler: show

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?

This is the one. I found Sorsha's response to Wilgy's unquoted question very odd, and totally agree with his response to her.

Sorry for the lack of original thought here. I have somewhere to be very soon.

Devin said Sorsha's response was "odd" and totally agreed with DrWilgy's response, again skirting any responsibility for coming up with his own reasons for a vote. Again.

He even acknowledges a lack of original thought.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I really want to know: What do you all think?

Is Devin an intentionally evasive, bandwagoning-hopping recruiter/recruitee, a neutral just willing to go with the flow, or a civilian completely drowning amid a busy RL?

[Tangrowth]

EBWOP: That first commentary should say too many good points. Hopefully there aren't any other important typos in there.

[Tangrowth]

Jay, what do you make of Boomslang's attempts to hunt today more heavily compared with previously?

I wanted to be inspired, but he seemed to focus primarily on people who either aren't posting much right now or never were posting much. It's still very easy content to throw into the thread when the feeling of need for content is there.

That's fair, I agree. I'm going to look through your interaction with Boomslang again before the lynch's end if I have time. If not, it'll be first thing I do going into the next cycle.

[thellama73]

Okay, it turns out I can't actually catch up all the way since my internet keeps going down, but while I contiue trying I wanted to say that I'm super uncomfortable with the Sorsha bandwagon, especially since unfurl is part of it.

[DharmaHelper]

Okay, it turns out I can't actually catch up all the way since my internet keeps going down, but while I contiue trying I wanted to say that I'm super uncomfortable with the Sorsha bandwagon, especially since unfurl is part of it.

Its fucked up, right?

[Marmot]

What would you do if Devin was a bandwagoning recruiter/recruitee, MP?

[thellama73]

I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha

That's super sketch. I don't buy it at all. Feels like a manufactured/piling on sort of reason.

[Tangrowth]

I hope people read my Devin ISO. I'd be much more comfortable lynching him today than Sorsha or even Bubbles, despite suspecting both of them (though I suspect Bubbles more heavily at the moment). I'm feeling a bit wary of both trains myself.

[Marmot]

I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha

That's super sketch. I don't buy it at all. Feels like a manufactured/piling on sort of reason.

Supasketch?

How are you doing llama? Sorry your internet is going down.

[Tangrowth]

I almost feel compelled to move my vote to Boomslang after conducting my ISO on Devin, since it's clear to me that Devin wants Boomslang alive, but I need to read Jay's interaction first. Going to do that right now. Sorry, I'll comment on any other posts made while I was ISOing Devin after the lynch.

[Dom]

I hope people read my Devin ISO. I'd be much more comfortable lynching him today than Sorsha or even Bubbles, despite suspecting both of them (though I suspect Bubbles more heavily at the moment). I'm feeling a bit wary of both trains myself.

When do you think he was recruited?

[thellama73]

I didn't see a response from nutella on this. I would like one.

I am not on a team with Scotty. I cannot vouch for him. I have agreed with a lot of his posts in the game but I have no reason to defend him in terms of alignment.

Who are you on a team with?

[Roxy]

I hope people read my Devin ISO. I'd be much more comfortable lynching him today than Sorsha or even Bubbles, despite suspecting both of them (though I suspect Bubbles more heavily at the moment). I'm feeling a bit wary of both trains myself.

I like it and agree but it would sure be nice to have started this discussion so he might have a chance at responding.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Gonna restate the Boomslang case one more time (with a little new material), and maybe some people will understand where I'm coming from a little better.

Spoiler: show

Argh, I can't even comprehend the amount of posting that's going on here. Two big things stick out to me, and I want to confirm that I share the suspicions previously raised.

But I certainly think epi and I are not going to be on the same side at any point in this game. Recruiters would be daft to recruit us both on to the same side at this point.

The "certainly" is certainly a key word. Because the only way you'd know that for certain would be to be a recruiter yourself. At this point, the low-level animosity you've already established would be perfect for shedding suspicion of teamwork over time. I think you're being far too rash to discount that possibility.

The second is the continued insistence of some players, most recently Roxy, that this is not a good vs. evil game. It's written right there in the rules: civvie groups 1 and 2, baddie groups 1 and 2. There are lynches by civs and NKs by baddies that happen regardless of position. This is very clear, and I don't see why anyone would deny it except to sow confusion.

I had suggested before that Boomslang's early content featured him commenting on particularly simple/easy surface-level material without really digging deeper into critical thinking. His focus on the word "certainly" is an example of this -- he draws an inference from Golden's comment that is technically logical but not thoroughly considered. It was always very easy to cast suspicion on Golden for saying something that seems absurd like "I certainly think epi and I are not going to be on the same side at any point in this game." Golden quite likely knew that statement would be regarded dubiously by some and said it anyway, because he was working a real agenda. Boomslang made no attempt to examine Golden's conduct on a deeper level and just offered up the obvious criticism of the surface problem that anyone ought to already know about when they make that post. In short, I think he might have taken Golden's bait on this (one advantage of intentionally saying something weird is that baddied have the tendency to jump all over "weird" things at the first opportunity, whereas civilians are more interested in "bad" things).

The second point is another example of the same thing. It was always extremely easy to criticize people for exploring an LMS mindset early in the game, and he literally displayed the reason why in his comment: the hosts made the rules and setup public. He wasn't thinking of the deeper motivations for players to explore the game that way -- he was throwing out a surface criticism where one seemed easily applicable.

Spoiler: show

Now that we've got this MP/Llama stuff, can be return to talking about Golden? The whole "I baited the baddies into a making the kill for me" line seems... unlikely to me. How could he have known that Epi was on the baddie team opposite from the one making the kill, unless he himself was on the baddie team making the kill?

Operation: Nitpick

I'll try again to explain why this bothers me so much. I have already explained, even displayed with logical breakdowns, why the highlighted portion does not make sense. The progression from Golden's claimed bait-attempt to "Golden knew Epi was on the baddie team opposite the one making the kill" just does not work. That it doesn't work isn't the problem though -- it was what motivated me to hound him with questions. His responses to those questions were the bigger issue.

Instead of realizing the logical error, which I think is undeniable, and admitting to it (as I think a civilian or neutral player who made a genuine error would do in this situation), he insisted in every way he could that he didn't make an error. He tried to show me why my logical premises were incomplete, and when he added more it still didn't make sense. Nothing he argued fixed the problem, but he kept trying. This is how someone acts when they've made a mistake and doesn't want to admit it. Which alignment should that behavior be associated with?

It looks like nitpicking to people because of the logical breakdowns I employed to show him why it didn't make sense. But the point I was making was not a nitpick. I thought he was trying to cast suspicion on Golden (read: trying to join thread crusade against Golden) and made a mistake in his reasoning that he didn't own up to. I don't care if there are two baddie teams -- the baddies are still going to lynch people not on their own team when the opportunity is present. I honestly think it is an absurdity to assume otherwise. They'll baddie hunt, but they'll also lynch people they might not genuinely find suspicious when they can. This is self-evident.

Spoiler: show

I'm sorry, I didn't think I had to defend my points on Golden when the guy is literally asking to be lynched. That's all I needed to know for today, honestly.
*votes Golden*

This is completely weak and should not be acceptable. He wasn't the only one to do it, but I also yelled at the others who did it. It's another infraction.

Spoiler: show

Let's try voting for myself! Seems to give you a get-out-of-jail free card these days!

This is clearly disingenuous, especially given that he moved his vote back off of himself when nobody liked it.

Spoiler: show

I've been in class all day and still don't have time to post. My self vote was indeed a protest. And you all jumped on it predictably. Point made.

If his "point made" was that people would "jump on it predictably", then why did he call it a "get-of-jail free card" in the prior post? That doesn't make sense either.

Spoiler: show

I disagree. Now what you need to ask yourself is this: am I bad, or just stupid?

This is just not a post that I see a civilian or neutral player making in this scenario. I explained why here:

Spoiler: show

It's suspicious at face value. This is reminiscent of a post I made as a baddie in the champs finale that drew a ton of heat. I uttered a sentence that immediately brought the vultures circling: "What do you want from me?"

I was exasperated by constant pressure from a single source (coolkid in that case) and it drove me to saying something that was honestly terrible at face value. I don't necessarily think Boomslang was "exasperated" by me, but I think the constant pressure I was applying led to this crack -- I don't see this post coming from a civilian or neutral mindset.

Moreover, I'd have felt a lot better if he'd have simply granted the mistake after I pointed it out. Something like "oh yeah I see what you mean, I dunno why I was thinking that." Instead he argued me to the tooth that it did make sense, seemingly to dissuade the notion that there was a mistake. That's how baddies respond when accused of things that seem nitpicky -- they get incredibly frustrated and try to hammer home their true meaning without any honest-seeming resignation.

This just happened to me; I'm probably sensitive to it.

~~~

Spoiler: show

Wait a minute, you know who's really flying under the radar? Russtifinko. Only 9 posts the entire game, and none after Day 1?! There are a few good points he makes that early, mostly about the need for neutrals to basically play civ unless otherwise recruited, but also some filler. The only vote he's justified so far has been for Timmer, and that because Timmer was an adjunct to the points MP had been making. What do you have to say for yourself, Mr. Russ?

Now that Russ has a replacement, my attention turns to Dom. More posts than me, but not by crazily much, and the majority of them involved in the Golden debate. A definite quietness after the lynch result, saying only "I need to think a little more." Also seemed supportive of DFaraday's comparative quiet when JJJ prodded him with a vote. Still thinking over there?

Daisy, if you liked Angry Orchard, then you'll love Ace Perry Cider. Much crisper, less sweet, highly recommended.

Wanted to chime in on the Sorsha discussion, because I haven't really looked at it too much.

There's a lot of early uncertainty tied to her previously announced absence from the thread, which is fine. The most pressing thing she comments on is her own survival in the early days; again, not to be unexpected, especially in an unrecruited stage.

Day two she starts to get a lot more outwardly focused. Talks about how leaving the Golden-Epi disagreement in the thread would be a good thing for baddies to hide behind, but stays wishy-washy when it comes to determining lynch subjects. Votes TinyBubbles for the drive-by, then does a bit of a NO U on TH when she's called out on it.

She then goes on a tangent about Golden being set up, which doesn't make sense to me; Golden claimed he had succeeded in baiting the baddies, he wasn't claiming a setup. I find this interesting because it seems very unlikely but becomes a focus of thread discussion, much like the Golden-Epi back and forth she feared would give baddies a place to hide earlier. And she doesn't really follow up on that suspicion because she votes bubbles again.

I think an is indeed worthy here.

Thanks for the rainbow list, JJJ, as it got me to take a closer look at Tranq. And I don't like what I see. There seem to be a couple places where he backpedaled from a course of action when he saw something else was becoming more popular. The first is when he asks LoRab to clarify a BWT suspicion:

EBWOP: Screwed up the ticking off who he had named. I think I started ticking off the ones he didn't name and then changed part way through. It is fixed below.

Do you think BWT intentially left people off his low-poster list because he either already has BTSC with them/plans to recruit them later? Is this why you voted for BWT?

Then stops asking questions and says:

I'm ok with a BWT vote.

The second is when he proposes asking the Brutal Executioner to kill JJJ, then says it was just a theory to spark discussion and doesn't post at all for the following day. These actions, combined with a basically unjustified vote on Sorsha, are why I am now *voting Tranq.*

After I finally stepped off the gas and gave him room to work, he used it to cast shade over a bunch of people who were unlikely to respond, sporadically participating, or already under immense pressure. These are extremely easy posts to make in his position and they don't do anything to make me feel better. The Dom post is the least easy among them, but still not enough to make me feel like Boomslang is really doing honest legwork.

~~~

I wondered whether I might feel differently this time. I don't.

[Roxy]

I would rather lynch JJJ truth be told.

[Tangrowth]

That's perfect, Jay, I'll read that. Trying to read through the old conversation I felt I was getting lost again, frankly.

[Tangrowth]

Rox, what is your Jay suspicion exactly? That he's an amazing player and a mafia team would want him? Other than that, I'm a bit lost.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would rather lynch JJJ truth be told.

Well be at some degree of peace knowing that I read your suspicion of me as mostly genuine.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Reading your Devin stuff now, MP.

[Roxy]

Rox, what is your Jay suspicion exactly? That he's an amazing player and a mafia team would want him? Other than that, I'm a bit lost.

I have stated it in my own way whether you choose to *see* it is up to you.

Look at him still pushing the Boomslang lynch, makes it absolutely unlikely I would follow his vote or lead.

[Tangrowth]

I hope people read my Devin ISO. I'd be much more comfortable lynching him today than Sorsha or even Bubbles, despite suspecting both of them (though I suspect Bubbles more heavily at the moment). I'm feeling a bit wary of both trains myself.

When do you think he was recruited?

I don't claim to have a firm idea on when he was recruited; I'll at least admit that Devin is consistent at being inconsistent and lacking substantiation/explanation for his opinions.

With that said, if I had to guess, I'd say somewhere between when he flips his mind on Golden. On D1, Devin said he wouldn't vote for either Golden or Epi, that he sees a genuine Golden. But on D3, Devin votes for Golden. Since he states no reason for either opinion, that's the only part in his posting history where I can sense a change in voting priorities.

[thellama73]

I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha

That's super sketch. I don't buy it at all. Feels like a manufactured/piling on sort of reason.

Supasketch?

How are you doing llama? Sorry your internet is going down.

I am doing well. But I think MP's ISO on Devin feels contrived. He goes "I'm gonna go read Devin's posts" and comes back with a long list where he comments on each one, but it feels like he's looking for a reason to suspect him. Not genuine. You're not being genuine, MP!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Look at him still pushing the Boomslang lynch, makes it absolutely unlikely I would follow his vote or lead.

Why exactly should I bother with this effort as a baddie instead of just picking one of the other wagons? I have done everything in my power to express my reads clearly on all of these players.

[Tangrowth]

What would you do if Devin was a bandwagoning recruiter/recruitee, MP?

And we lynched him right now?

If he was mafia? That'd be awesome.

If he was civilian recruiter/recruitee? I'd eat a shoe.

[Marmot]

I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha

That's super sketch. I don't buy it at all. Feels like a manufactured/piling on sort of reason.

Supasketch?

How are you doing llama? Sorry your internet is going down.

I am doing well. But I think MP's ISO on Devin feels contrived. He goes "I'm gonna go read Devin's posts" and comes back with a long list where he comments on each one, but it feels like he's looking for a reason to suspect him. Not genuine. You're not being genuine, MP!

I agree with you, in that I don't agree with voting for Devin. I'd rather vote for MP.

[Roxy]

I want to lynch JJJ.

I do not see the Bubbles suspicion so I will not be voting there.

As to Sorsha I am really unsure and I hate to go by what others have said to base a vote on. She does seem to be leading in a subtle way which is thing only thing really stands out to me.

I will go with Vote Devin right now