Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (End Game)

[aapje]

This is very true. I don't think anyone would rez someone not on their team.

What if the rezzer is not on any team?

Then it would be a pretty dumb move since it would actively hurt their chances to win :P

How?

Because resurrecting someone not on your team decreases your chances of winning.

What if that someone is not on any team?

If that someone is not on any team, how can someone not on any team ressurecting someone not on his non-team decrease his chances of winning (which are not team-based, but individual)?

Prolongs the game = more nk's and lynches = greater chance to end up dead = not winning. Pretty easy really.

[S~V~S]

I got all of my BBQing out of the day yesterday with the Socialists. I am sunburnt and a bit hungover, so i am skipping todays BBQs and staying home.

I plan to reread Turnip Head since he has so far skipped below my radar and I want to see whats the hub, bub. Plus Syn's weird plucked out of context case on me got my eye, so I am going to reread Russti/Syn.

Wilgys silencing seems a tad TOO convenient for him today, BUT it could be real, perhaps the silencer is civ/neut and feels he is good, and is protecting him in this way, I have done that as a civ silencer. Plus, as i said, I doubt that he would have switched a lynch to DH, regardless of alignment, so i think that was more likely to have been done TO him than BY him, perhaps to set him (or me or someone else, lol) up. So I won't be voting for Wilgy unless I have no choice.

While I will keep watching Bullz~ that one remark of his that someone else mentioned, about the gossips post being a waste or something to that effect, did sound pretty pissy, which i associate more with bad Bullz, BUT I often feel that way about gossip so He started participating, not just watching, so i will backburner him.

Same for Sorsha, not sure if I think that bad Sorsha would have No U'ed me, plus my thoughts on her were totally based on the Golden thing and her posts on that. So also there.

[Boomslang]

Gonna keep on the DrWilgy train. Hopefully second time's the charm, and I agree with other people that the suspiciously convenient silencing is, well, suspicious.

[thellama73]

Bass, Synonym, Tranq, Sorsha, aapje, Devin, reywaS, bea. Even BWT's been mysteriously distant of late. Those people on my list scare me because I can't say for sure what they are, because I just haven't heard original opinions from them in a while. Out of sight out of mind. At least Sorsha, who I had been hounding for so long, had been making efforts to look at several people (which she has said she doesn't prefer to do).

This is a good list to keep an eye on. I would imagine that at least some of the baddies are hoping to lay low and escape attention at this point.

Re: your case on TH, I have had my eye on him for a while, but the quotes you pulled didn't convince me of much. I also made the point that it would be foolish not to use a lynch switch if you have one, and I think it's a good point regardless of alignment.

[Canucklehead]

Catching up and commenting as I go. Not a lot of time to play today, sorry if all these things have been addressed but I'm just commenting as I see things....

I don't envy the position of trying to defend against me, since I often careen into people in assessing like the Jamaican Bobsled team.

That being said, your acquiescence to my biased observations is not so good. What would I say to defend myself in your shoes?

I dunno. I'm not in your shoes. I suppose we'll cross those laces if we come to it.


Here's my thinking for today- I realllllly want to kill Unzer because IMO this is the safest position to do so in. I don't think Wilgy is Ubarf. I think he was converted, and on his team. Taking down anyone from any team is going to be difficult, but especially if it's the leader (Azura is no laughing matter either, but we need to work with what we have in an outed UbGYN ally in Bubbles)

I think either TH or Wilgy should be lynched today. Wilgy a safer bet, but I'm currently feeling confident about TH being Leader. There's just something wrong about him.

I don't think I agree with the bolded part. I think it's actually more likely for a civ/neutral to be willing to agree with the assessment that their actions *seem* bad, because they are not as hyper-defensive/on alert as baddies are. I actually found TH's responses to you to be reassuring, rather than worrying.

[Canucklehead]

So, funny story guys. I n the past three days I have gotten a) sick b) most of the skin on my hand removed by a cat c) a painful rip injury from trapeze and d) poisoned by Nando's.

I'm starting to think someone is out to get me.

The back and forth between DH and SVS is interesting. I'm not inclined to vote for either of them today. I suspect that baddie have receded into the background to let us tear each other apart. The point about Wilgy having no defenders is one I need to take into consideration, although it does sometimes happen that teams are largely inactive and don't defend each other.The same logic would also imply he's not on a civvie team.

Are the trapeeze injury and the cat injury related? Like, were you attempting to bring your cat with you on your trapeeze adventures, and the cat let you know how he felt about that situtation?? And thenyour grip slipped, leading to the rip injury?? Regardless, I'm very sorry for your misfortunes......but I won't deny that I'm very pleased about the hilarious mental images the middle two are conjuring up for me.

[Canucklehead]

I got all of my BBQing out of the day yesterday with the Socialists. I am sunburnt and a bit hungover,

I love you, SVS

[Canucklehead]

Ok, so that was actually an extremely manageable catch-up. Hooray!

I'm not convinced by Scotty's case on TH, and it actually makes me want to look at Scotty more closely. Like I've mentioned before, TH is sort of in the same boat as Timmer for me. I think they're both playing pretty blatantly Neutral games, adn while I had some uneasiness before about TH swapping back-and-forth between neutral and civ vernaculars, his unperturbed and honest responses to Scotty's accusations make me think there's not much he feels he needs to hide right now. I'm surprised that Scotty didn't see it that way....

I'm in the camp that Wilgy being silenced is a little too convenient. Coupled with his Bubbles defending and his lynch-non-lynch, I'm willing to vote for him now.....and I don't think the whole "no one is coming to his defense" thing really deters me from suspecting him, since it's precisely BECAUSE of his defending of a possible teammate that he's under the gun today. If he is on a baddie team, it would be pretty damn ballsy of them to risk exposing a THIRD member by trying to get in front of the Wilgy lynch train. I think his risk didn't pay off, and his teammates are probably willing to bus him and/or let him hide behind the silencing.

[reywaS]

This is very true. I don't think anyone would rez someone not on their team.

What if the rezzer is not on any team?

Then it would be a pretty dumb move since it would actively hurt their chances to win :P

The main point though was calling bullshit on your unrecruited status and your insistence that you have no idea why you were rezzed.

Call bullsuit on my status, then, make a case; but, as I've pointed out, there's not much to tie it to my rezz.

LoRab asked me why I think I was rezzed, it's not like I came out of my tomb and started opinionating on my own.

Well the thing is, I can see a reason why the Shaman would bring back certain people, even if they have not been recruited. But since you said you have no idea why you were rezzed I think we can safely rule that out now. The fact that you have been rezzed and your reaction to it is basically all I need to think you are up to no good.

I can understand why you are thinking this way on Rico....but let me ask you this. If Rico was rezz recruited by a civvie team, would you expect him to come out saying he knows why/how he was recruited? Wouldn't that make him a pretty huge target for NKs?

[reywaS]

Yeah that looks pretty bad for me, doesn't it?

Is...is that your defense?

My defense is that I wouldn't stick my neck out for a teammate who wasn't defending herself and was likely to be lynched anyway, but that's just gonna be called WIFOM. I was wrong about Bubbles.

I defended a known baddie and posited that the lynch switch was a frame job. Thinking I'm her teammate isn't an outlandish conclusion to make. If you know of a way for me to defend against that, I'm all ears.

When I read this, I thought, "This is exactly what I would say in TH's position if I was bad."

We are different people and yada yada yada. I just thought it was interesting.

linki with myself lmao

[Marmot]

I voted TH. Be back in a day or two.

[DharmaHelper]

If Nobody will vote for SVS then I will vote for TH. Cool.

[Turnip Head]

Yeah that looks pretty bad for me, doesn't it?

Is...is that your defense?

My defense is that I wouldn't stick my neck out for a teammate who wasn't defending herself and was likely to be lynched anyway, but that's just gonna be called WIFOM. I was wrong about Bubbles.

I defended a known baddie and posited that the lynch switch was a frame job. Thinking I'm her teammate isn't an outlandish conclusion to make. If you know of a way for me to defend against that, I'm all ears.

When I read this, I thought, "This is exactly what I would say in TH's position if I was bad."

We are different people and yada yada yada. I just thought it was interesting.

linki with myself lmao

And would you have defended Bubbles in the first place if you're in my position and bad?

The people who are voting for me are doing so because I was wrong about a baddie. Doesn't that seem like a shallow way to look at things? What about the people who didnt push the case but ended up on the right side of it? Isn't that what baddies do?

[reywaS]

Yeah that looks pretty bad for me, doesn't it?

Is...is that your defense?

My defense is that I wouldn't stick my neck out for a teammate who wasn't defending herself and was likely to be lynched anyway, but that's just gonna be called WIFOM. I was wrong about Bubbles.

I defended a known baddie and posited that the lynch switch was a frame job. Thinking I'm her teammate isn't an outlandish conclusion to make. If you know of a way for me to defend against that, I'm all ears.

When I read this, I thought, "This is exactly what I would say in TH's position if I was bad."

We are different people and yada yada yada. I just thought it was interesting.

linki with myself lmao

And would you have defended Bubbles in the first place if you're in my position and bad?

The people who are voting for me are doing so because I was wrong about a baddie. Doesn't that seem like a shallow way to look at things? What about the people who didnt push the case but ended up on the right side of it? Isn't that what baddies do?

No, I would not.

[Turnip Head]

Neither would I. I would cut my losses and move on.

[DharmaHelper]

[bea]

Been up since 9 on 4 hours sleep. Store is burning down yet again. 5 call offs in 2 days and now the phones are broke. Voting wily again because I'm not sure if I will make it back and because silence after not being lynched seems too convinent.

[DharmaHelper]

That DharmaHelper character seems awful suspect.

[LoRab]

Please lynch Turnip Head. That is all.

Remember when we got this message, then NEVER got another one after from the Speaker? What's up widdat?

We got a message from him at the start of D2, after position 1 concluded. We never got back to position 1 so far. His positions 2-5 might not be messaging. In fact, I'm pretty sure this lack of messaging since D2 tells us his positions 2-5 aren't messaging. I'm not sure if he's still alive or got killed, but there's no way to tell anyway.

Except that the roles are pretty clear that all 5 positions for that role are a message to the thread--it's how the messages work that we don't know. Seems pretty far fetched that the other positions aren't messaging.

I keep saying I'm unrecruited, you must mean. What rezz recruitement possibility?

I don't know what I'm supposed to say about my rezz, really. I was unrecruited when killed, so I was out and done (i.e. loser). I don't know why the Shaman brought me back, of all people, but it didn't come with any recruitement. I'm still unrecruited and I'll still go down and lose the game if I stay that way and get killed again. I'd like to get recruited by the civs, because I'm fairly convinced I won't survive the game unrecruited. Team Azura clearly didn't like me and I doubt they like that I'm back either. I helped lynch Bubbles, in fact growing suspicious of her ever since her Golden D3 flip-flop, so I doubt team Ubzilly are fond of me, either.

Hmm, I made an error in assessing MoSh, it seems. I thought position 5 was up the night Dom was killed, so that MoSh couldn't have been targeted. But with position 4, you're right, MoSh is eligible.

I don't believe you. It seems too unlikely that someone would rez an unknown. Even if the rezzer is unrecruited, I think you're an unlikely choice. The night 1 deaths are the least likely recruited, which would make more sense as someone to rezz.

And we don't know that there isn't a evil rez/recruitment possibility going on.

I am quite suspicious of you. Your rez and your response to your rez don't make me less suspish of you.

That said, I'm more suspish of TH at the moment, and voting for him.

vote: TH

[timmer]

I am a little surprised at how many people are voting for someone who may be silenced. Makes mE feel much better about my vote for TH.

[S~V~S]

I reread TH & Russ, not Syn yet.

Russ made 9 posts, most of them multiquote impressive looking affairs that did not really say much of anything, something I tend to associate with baddies. Like he was just making posts in order to make posts. Since he quoted an entire long ass post of Bullz just to say, "Thanks, I agree", I checked Bullz posts for a reply to him and did not find one. @Bullz, tell me, what was your opinion of Russti, and have you formed an opinion of Synonym? If you don't have one in either case, I can't blame you, I did not either until now. But someone who used one of my posts as a starting point for a pretty pointless post always gets noticed by me; I was curious if it was the same for you.

TH, on the other hand, is playing the blendy non commital game i would expect from a neutral TH who lacks Captain Obvious in his chatroom egging him on I reread him in isolation though, so need to read some in context to get a better feel for him. But he has had controversial opinions, and has been fairly blunt and to the point, like during the discussion of why someone who had a lynch switch would use it. I saw no really manipulative posts, or posts where baddie TH pulls out his "aw shucks, farmboy" thing that he can do when he's bad. I have not seen civ TH, either, but he isn't claiming to be a civ as far as I saw.

Having read him, I need to reread the case on him.

[S~V~S]

What I have found interesting is that as soon as Wilgy goes over, someone comes in and votes TH and ties it up. From the 13th vote on, which first tied them up, from Scotty.

[S~V~S]

Oh nvm, 14 & 15 came in a row for Wilgy, then 16 & 17 for TH. Still, though. I don't think there would be that many people on any one BTS team, so just coincidental.

[Ricochet]

This is very true. I don't think anyone would rez someone not on their team.

What if the rezzer is not on any team?

Then it would be a pretty dumb move since it would actively hurt their chances to win :P

How?

Because resurrecting someone not on your team decreases your chances of winning.

What if that someone is not on any team?

If that someone is not on any team, how can someone not on any team ressurecting someone not on his non-team decrease his chances of winning (which are not team-based, but individual)?

Prolongs the game = more nk's and lynches = greater chance to end up dead = not winning. Pretty easy really.

In that case, I guess he technically made a bad move for himself. Is it unheard of in Mafia for players not to make actions or use their powers in the most inspired way, on the long run? It still doesn't mean I had anything to do with or that I can justify in any way his move or his sympathy towards ressurecting me. You'll find no answers, either, at this point. I'm unrecruited, so you won't get wiser info about me or the Shaman's moves by lynching me.

Have you exhausted all possibilities? What if the Shaman is just as knowledgeable as you and rezzed me with nefarious intentions, knowing that my rezz will make some find me questionable afterwards? What if the Shaman is on the good side already (so he doesn't have to worry about his indy "chances of winning" and rezzed me thinking I can be valuable for the civ cause?

This is very true. I don't think anyone would rez someone not on their team.

What if the rezzer is not on any team?

Then it would be a pretty dumb move since it would actively hurt their chances to win :P

How?

Well assuming they stay unrecruited they need to be alive at the end of the game to win. Rezzing people prolongs the game and thus their chances of not staying alive that long. If they end up recruited they only benefit from your rez if they end up on your side.

The main point though was calling bullshit on your unrecruited status and your insistence that you have no idea why you were rezzed.

Call bullsuit on my status, then, make a case; but, as I've pointed out, there's not much to tie it to my rezz.

LoRab asked me why I think I was rezzed, it's not like I came out of my tomb and started opinionating on my own.

Well the thing is, I can see a reason why the Shaman would bring back certain people, even if they have not been recruited. But since you said you have no idea why you were rezzed I think we can safely rule that out now. The fact that you have been rezzed and your reaction to it is basically all I need to think you are up to no good.

I don't get it. I'm no good because I'm being honest about not knowing why someone else (that I can't even put a face on) did to me what he did? How am I supposed to defend or argue for someone else's anonymous intentions? What was I supposed to say, up to your standards and experience in how rezz people behave?

You speak in vague, introspective terms ("I can see a reason why", "your reaction to it is all I need") I don't know how to argue against.

I'm leaving in 15 mins.

I don't see why I should spell it out. It's obviously you don't know what I am referring to so I can rule out that other logical explanation for your rez. Leaving the one that you are recruited.

Again, I don't know what I'm supposed to argue with here. "I deem you bad because I know better how things work" is hard to defend through argumentation against. It slightly feels like entrapment, too. At this point, despite all your previous experience that motivates you to suspect my ressurection (which I can respect, but can't say I fully comprehend), I guarantee that you will receive however the example of the opposite being also true. I'd rather prove this to you post-game than being pointlessly lynched, but go ahead if you feel entitled and get proven totally wrong afterwards.

[Nicol Bolas]

Hi, folks!

[Bullzeye]

Russ made 9 posts, most of them multiquote impressive looking affairs that did not really say much of anything, something I tend to associate with baddies. Like he was just making posts in order to make posts. Since he quoted an entire long ass post of Bullz just to say, "Thanks, I agree", I checked Bullz posts for a reply to him and did not find one. @Bullz, tell me, what was your opinion of Russti, and have you formed an opinion of Synonym? If you don't have one in either case, I can't blame you, I did not either until now. But someone who used one of my posts as a starting point for a pretty pointless post always gets noticed by me; I was curious if it was the same for you.

To be completely honest, I hadn't even realised that this had happened! I will go look at Russti/Synonym now.

[Bullzeye]

Well that didn't take long. I see the post Russti was replying to, the thing in the big post of mine that he replied to was the very last thing, so perhaps he just didn't think it necessary to trim the rest of the quote out? As for Synonym, I'd be curious what he thinks of players not named SVS since she's the only person he's really commented on.

[Ricochet]

Please lynch Turnip Head. That is all.

Remember when we got this message, then NEVER got another one after from the Speaker? What's up widdat?

We got a message from him at the start of D2, after position 1 concluded. We never got back to position 1 so far. His positions 2-5 might not be messaging. In fact, I'm pretty sure this lack of messaging since D2 tells us his positions 2-5 aren't messaging. I'm not sure if he's still alive or got killed, but there's no way to tell anyway.

Except that the roles are pretty clear that all 5 positions for that role are a message to the thread--it's how the messages work that we don't know. Seems pretty far fetched that the other positions aren't messaging.

I keep saying I'm unrecruited, you must mean. What rezz recruitement possibility?

I don't know what I'm supposed to say about my rezz, really. I was unrecruited when killed, so I was out and done (i.e. loser). I don't know why the Shaman brought me back, of all people, but it didn't come with any recruitement. I'm still unrecruited and I'll still go down and lose the game if I stay that way and get killed again. I'd like to get recruited by the civs, because I'm fairly convinced I won't survive the game unrecruited. Team Azura clearly didn't like me and I doubt they like that I'm back either. I helped lynch Bubbles, in fact growing suspicious of her ever since her Golden D3 flip-flop, so I doubt team Ubzilly are fond of me, either.

Hmm, I made an error in assessing MoSh, it seems. I thought position 5 was up the night Dom was killed, so that MoSh couldn't have been targeted. But with position 4, you're right, MoSh is eligible.

I don't believe you. It seems too unlikely that someone would rez an unknown. Even if the rezzer is unrecruited, I think you're an unlikely choice. The night 1 deaths are the least likely recruited, which would make more sense as someone to rezz.

And we don't know that there isn't a evil rez/recruitment possibility going on.

I am quite suspicious of you. Your rez and your response to your rez don't make me less suspish of you.

That said, I'm more suspish of TH at the moment, and voting for him.

vote: TH

The Speaker's twist on his positions has been discussed before, I think quite early in the game in fact. My interpretation of "Each position appears to be the same." is that each position is possibly not the same, meaning the abilities, not a variation of the same ability. If the phrasing is that the positions "appear to be the same", how can you say it is "pretty clear" that all positions are "the same"? It would also be quite redundant for the Speaker to be designed with basically the same variation (different messaging routes) as the Keeper of Ravens, but that's also my take on it. I don't believe the version you bring is unlikely, but I don't believe mine is either.

As for your belief, go with it. Just like aapje, I imagine that your view and experience with how rezz have worked and what they meant are more significant. I don't have such experience, it's the first time I've been brought back in a game, all I know what I was and what I am (which is same answer: unrecruited) and that doesn't give me any window to analyse why someone completely unknown to me brought me back. Both appje and apparently you as well have standards as to what rezzed people need to answer and it seems I cannot meet them. I've chosen honesty about my status and about what happened.

As for you suspecting me, I have no desire to go back to what we've talked for Days. My conclusion from that was that your initial case partly doesn't hold water factually and partly is extremely subjective and overblown. I don't remember you giving conclusions about my rezz on your own after inquiring me about my rezz. For all I know, you can be surfing the wind, after aapje's own interpretation of my rezz, because it suits you in your suspicions.

[S~V~S]

I got all of my BBQing out of the day yesterday with the Socialists. I am sunburnt and a bit hungover,

I love you, SVS

What better way to celebrate Labor Day? Besides, the Anarchists were busy.

Thanks, Bullz. I guess, that always strikes me as a way to impress the skimmers, multiquotes of big posts while actually saying nothing yourself. And yeah, lol. I am about to reread Syns posts on me.

[Ricochet]

Tranq voted Timmer why?

[S~V~S]

Lorab, while i don't necessarily agree with your stance on Rico as he has seems pretty transparent to me (for him)~ but, then, i know him better; I wanted to know why YOU voted for TH, becasue I tend to understand you, and vice versa. Becasue I am not sure I am getting it.

[S~V~S]

Also Hi Keeper

*waves*

[Nicol Bolas]

Also Hi Keeper

*waves*

Hi! I was starting to feel ignored. Thank you for acknowledging me.

[Ricochet]

How come you can post as yourself, Keep?

[thellama73]

So, funny story guys. I n the past three days I have gotten a) sick b) most of the skin on my hand removed by a cat c) a painful rip injury from trapeze and d) poisoned by Nando's.

I'm starting to think someone is out to get me.

The back and forth between DH and SVS is interesting. I'm not inclined to vote for either of them today. I suspect that baddie have receded into the background to let us tear each other apart. The point about Wilgy having no defenders is one I need to take into consideration, although it does sometimes happen that teams are largely inactive and don't defend each other.The same logic would also imply he's not on a civvie team.

Are the trapeeze injury and the cat injury related? Like, were you attempting to bring your cat with you on your trapeeze adventures, and the cat let you know how he felt about that situtation?? And thenyour grip slipped, leading to the rip injury?? Regardless, I'm very sorry for your misfortunes......but I won't deny that I'm very pleased about the hilarious mental images the middle two are conjuring up for me.

Nah, the cat injury happened earlier. I think a sign from the universe not to attempt trapezing that day, which I foolishly ignored. It does appear that my rib is not actually cracked, though. So good news all around!

[Nicol Bolas]

How come you can post as yourself, Keep?

It is an ability that I acquired.

[Turnip Head]

LoRab voted for me on Day 3 for something I said on Day 0, and has continued to coast on that suspicion every Day since then.

Day 3:

@TH: I reject the idea that lynching neutrals only helps baddies. Neutrals are exactly that--neutral. They can just as easily help baddies or civies. Sure, I'd rather lynch a baddie. But I don't have someone who fits that category. And a neutral who doesn't seem pro-civ is a better choice, to me, than not voting (and, again, thought the lynch ended today).

Wait--weren't you one of the folks saying that this wasn't a bad v civ game?

I asked a question about the difference between the civs and the baddies on Day 0, if that's what you're referring to.

This does not seem like asking a question. This seems like making a statement.

All the recruiters are equally naughty. What makes half of them more civvie than the others, other than that's what we're told to call them? They all seem nearly equal in power.

Vote: TH

The "naughty" statement was relevant to the discussion that was being had at the time IIRC. That's exactly what that post was, an attempt to have a discussion.

Why are you voting for me on Day 3 for something I said on Day 0?

Because you posted day 3 with a post that seemed to be diametrically opposed to that post. Also, games are cumulative. And something that does not necessarily seem especially suspicious early on can become suspicious later.

We had a long back and forth on Day 3 about why I thought the point LoRab was making about my Day 0 post made no sense. We haven't discussed it since Day 3, and she has made no effort to engage me or discuss my play since then. This is everything she's said about me since Day 3:

Day 4:

Vote: TH

Partly as a statement that I still suspect him.

And mainly because I'm not feeling so suspicious of either of the main vote getters at the moment.

Day 5:

And I also continue to suspect TH, even if I haven't mentioned it as much. But, yes, JJJ, I agree with you on him.

Day 6:

w/b Rico. Do you know who rezzed you and why?

Putting a vote on TH for now. Because I still suspect him (no, I haven't forgotten about that position, nor do I think he's unrecruited neutral). And because I want to have a vote on the board so I can see the results.

Day 7:

:o Is this the first?

I remain in my belief that TH is bad. Defending bubbles doesn't help.

She said nothing new about me until Scotty came in with his case re: Bubbles. For someone who has suspected me so much for so long, LoRab has had very little to actually say about me, all based on my Day 0 post, and has put no effort in making a case against me; she places her vote and runs.

[thellama73]

I don't know where I want to put my vote. DrWilgy and TH both have aroused my suspicions in the past. I didn't buy Scotty's case against TH, though, and I'm not a huge fan of some of the driveby votes, like MM's and DH's "just cuz no one's buying SVS"

What to do, what to do? I'm tempted to leave it a tie and let fate decide, but I suppose there is time yet.

[LoRab]

Please lynch Turnip Head. That is all.

Remember when we got this message, then NEVER got another one after from the Speaker? What's up widdat?

We got a message from him at the start of D2, after position 1 concluded. We never got back to position 1 so far. His positions 2-5 might not be messaging. In fact, I'm pretty sure this lack of messaging since D2 tells us his positions 2-5 aren't messaging. I'm not sure if he's still alive or got killed, but there's no way to tell anyway.

Except that the roles are pretty clear that all 5 positions for that role are a message to the thread--it's how the messages work that we don't know. Seems pretty far fetched that the other positions aren't messaging.

I keep saying I'm unrecruited, you must mean. What rezz recruitement possibility?

I don't know what I'm supposed to say about my rezz, really. I was unrecruited when killed, so I was out and done (i.e. loser). I don't know why the Shaman brought me back, of all people, but it didn't come with any recruitement. I'm still unrecruited and I'll still go down and lose the game if I stay that way and get killed again. I'd like to get recruited by the civs, because I'm fairly convinced I won't survive the game unrecruited. Team Azura clearly didn't like me and I doubt they like that I'm back either. I helped lynch Bubbles, in fact growing suspicious of her ever since her Golden D3 flip-flop, so I doubt team Ubzilly are fond of me, either.

Hmm, I made an error in assessing MoSh, it seems. I thought position 5 was up the night Dom was killed, so that MoSh couldn't have been targeted. But with position 4, you're right, MoSh is eligible.

I don't believe you. It seems too unlikely that someone would rez an unknown. Even if the rezzer is unrecruited, I think you're an unlikely choice. The night 1 deaths are the least likely recruited, which would make more sense as someone to rezz.

And we don't know that there isn't a evil rez/recruitment possibility going on.

I am quite suspicious of you. Your rez and your response to your rez don't make me less suspish of you.

That said, I'm more suspish of TH at the moment, and voting for him.

vote: TH

The Speaker's twist on his positions has been discussed before, I think quite early in the game in fact. My interpretation of "Each position appears to be the same." is that each position is possibly not the same, meaning the abilities, not a variation of the same ability. If the phrasing is that the positions "appear to be the same", how can you say it is "pretty clear" that all positions are "the same"? It would also be quite redundant for the Speaker to be designed with basically the same variation (different messaging routes) as the Keeper of Ravens, but that's also my take on it. I don't believe the version you bring is unlikely, but I don't believe mine is either.

As for your belief, go with it. Just like aapje, I imagine that your view and experience with how rezz have worked and what they meant are more significant. I don't have such experience, it's the first time I've been brought back in a game, all I know what I was and what I am (which is same answer: unrecruited) and that doesn't give me any window to analyse why someone completely unknown to me brought me back. Both appje and apparently you as well have standards as to what rezzed people need to answer and it seems I cannot meet them. I've chosen honesty about my status and about what happened.

As for you suspecting me, I have no desire to go back to what we've talked for Days. My conclusion from that was that your initial case partly doesn't hold water factually and partly is extremely subjective and overblown. I don't remember you giving conclusions about my rezz on your own after inquiring me about my rezz. For all I know, you can be surfing the wind, after aapje's own interpretation of my rezz, because it suits you in your suspicions.

Of course the 5 positions work differently, but it seems clear to me that they are all a message to the thread in some way or other. I'm not sure how the powers could be not a message to the thread and not be entirely inaccurate in the role descriptions. In my reading of the roles, it seemed fairly evident that it was how that message worked/what information/misinformation might exist that was what changed. I see how you could read it differently--but not that the role could be something different than what is stated.

And I've seen many versions of rezzes, yes. What I haven't seen you theorize is why anyone in the game would rezz you. You seem like an unlikely choice. A rezz of someone not on someone's team seems unlikely. I am trying to understand why someone would rezz someone unknown, who claims to be unrecruited, without the express intent on recruiting them to a baddie team--especially if the rezz role is unrecruited, I can't see why they'd rezz an unknown. The possibility of a baddie rezzer rezzing you to take attention away from their team did dawn on me, but I don't get that sense from your responses.

And I don't want to bring back our back and forth, either. It isn't going to take us anywhere. But I will say that my original reasons for suspecting you remain. That you continue to seem to think that my reasons have no validity only perpetuates my thoughts. And that attitude is part of what makes you suspicious to me.

And my own thoughts on this are similar to apples--he happened to articulate it before I had a chance to. Yes, your rezz makes you more suspicious to me, and you were suspicious in the first place.

Lorab, while i don't necessarily agree with your stance on Rico as he has seems pretty transparent to me (for him)~ but, then, i know him better; I wanted to know why YOU voted for TH, becasue I tend to understand you, and vice versa. Becasue I am not sure I am getting it.

It is entirely possible that I am misreading him because I don't know him. As for TH, a sum of my thoughts:

He, early on, posted that all of the recruiters were equally neutral and there were no baddies/civies. While he claims that he was simply mistaken, I think that it is an unlikely mistake, especially for someone who has played recruitment games before. I think he was trying to get the thread to neutralize their thinking about the baddies. And, afterwards, he claimed to have been asking a question about how it worked and not making a statement that all the recruiters were evil, misrepresenting his prior action.

Later on, day 3, he posted about lynching neutrals helping baddies--which seemed to be diametrically opposed to his original post about it. And while he could have changed his mind, he has repeatedly denied that he meant what he said in the first place. And even questioned me for voting him for something he said early on--when I think the original post made him seem bad, and it's not like someone who was bad at the outset would become good later on.

When he then defended bubbles, it only reinforced my original suspicion of him.

linkitis: Yes, I haven't posted a lot about you. I didn't have much to add to my original thoughts. But that didn't mean they went away. I have not had a lot of time/energy to post much the past several days--that doesn't mean I haven't been thinking or that I don't have opinions. And I didn't have anything to add to what has been said--I don't really believe in posting for the sake of posting.

[thellama73]

SVS, where do you reckon you'll vote today? I find your gameplay oddly soothing and confidence-boosting.

[DharmaHelper]

I don't know where I want to put my vote. DrWilgy and TH both have aroused my suspicions in the past. I didn't buy Scotty's case against TH, though, and I'm not a huge fan of some of the driveby votes, like MM's and DH's "just cuz no one's buying SVS"

What to do, what to do? I'm tempted to leave it a tie and let fate decide, but I suppose there is time yet.

You could vote for me if you wanted.

[Ricochet]

You had a chance to suspect me for my rezz or my replies on it, LoRab, you asked me, then we exchanged posts about different things and now you're back on that matter after appje brought it up. That's not "I didn't get a chance to articulate before he did", the window of opportunity is too large for that to be genuine.

I get that you think an aligned rezzer would not rezz an unknown, but you also state that neither would an unaligned rezzer. So who would an unrecruited rezzer rezz in your view, if he for sure wouldn't rezz an unknown? Isn't everybody "unknown" to him, if he's unrecruited?

[thellama73]

I don't know where I want to put my vote. DrWilgy and TH both have aroused my suspicions in the past. I didn't buy Scotty's case against TH, though, and I'm not a huge fan of some of the driveby votes, like MM's and DH's "just cuz no one's buying SVS"

What to do, what to do? I'm tempted to leave it a tie and let fate decide, but I suppose there is time yet.

You could vote for me if you wanted.

That's a good point. I'll keep that in mind.

[S~V~S]

SVS, where do you reckon you'll vote today? I find your gameplay oddly soothing and confidence-boosting.

LOL, that does not sound very good. And oddly, I can say the same about you to some extent, but probably in a different way.

I have decided to backburner my previous supicions for reasons I said earlier. I am leaning towards Syn. Having reread Russti, I am not inspired with confidence that he was even neutral, much less civ. Synonym came in acting like BTS. While there IS civ bts, his hasty incomplete case felt faux to me.

You?

Linki @ Rico, I would either rezz someone that was a fun player if I were unrecruited, or not use my rezz at all. I would not rezz someone playing a strong game as it could bite me in the ass. While I could see civ reasons for denying being recruited, I would automatically assume the rezzed person had been recruited. Not necessarily by baddies, but not neutral.

[S~V~S]

EBWOP, re syn, it felt like a justification for a vote.

[LoRab]

You had a chance to suspect me for my rezz or my replies on it, LoRab, you asked me, then we exchanged posts about different things and now you're back on that matter after appje brought it up. That's not "I didn't get a chance to articulate before he did", the window of opportunity is too large for that to be genuine.

I get that you think an aligned rezzer would not rezz an unknown, but you also state that neither would an unaligned rezzer. So who would an unrecruited rezzer rezz in your view, if he for sure wouldn't rezz an unknown? Isn't everybody "unknown" to him, if he's unrecruited?

Even if you don't think I'm being genuine, I am. Sometimes, I think about things before I come to conclusions, so the too much time doesn't make sense. And yes, aaple posted what I had been thinking, but I hadn't posted yet. You don't have to believe me, but it's the truth. But keep convincing yourself that I'm not legitimately coming to conclusions, even if they are different from yours or if I don't say them the very second I say them.

And if I were an unrecruited rezzer, I'd either not use my power, use it on someone I truly enjoy playing with/a friend. In the case of this game, tbh, I'd likely use it on Typh, based on the numerical thought that he was likely unrecruited and the number of players (and the host) that expressed sadness he was out of the game so early.

[thellama73]

SVS, where do you reckon you'll vote today? I find your gameplay oddly soothing and confidence-boosting.

LOL, that does not sound very good. And oddly, I can say the same about you to some extent, but probably in a different way.

I have decided to backburner my previous supicions for reasons I said earlier. I am leaning towards Syn. Having reread Russti, I am not inspired with confidence that he was even neutral, much less civ. Synonym came in acting like BTS. While there IS civ bts, his hasty incomplete case felt faux to me.

You?

Linki @ Rico, I would either rezz someone that was a fun player if I were unrecruited, or not use my rezz at all. I would not rezz someone playing a strong game as it could bite me in the ass. While I could see civ reasons for denying being recruited, I would automatically assume the rezzed person had been recruited. Not necessarily by baddies, but not neutral.

I don't know. I don't really feel like Synonym is playing, which is annoying, but not especially dangerous at this stage. I would rather get a dangerous player. I'm pretty curious about DrWilgy, but the silenced bit makes me a bit hesitant. Why would someone silence him today, when he was a fairly obvious lynch candidate? Are they tryig to protect him? Is he faking being silenced? I am second guessing myself here.

I'll put my vote on Wilgy for now and move it if I need to later.

[Ricochet]

The question was more towards LoRab, but thanks just as much, SVS. [jest color]I doubt I'm a fun player, so I guess I can expect you to rezz me. [/jest] Outside the logic you pointed out for "automatically assuming rezzed would be recruited", do you think there is any sense for a role described as "possible rezz" to imply that rezz also comes with recruiting? Do you think the Hosts wouldn't have announced a recruitment in the thread after my rezz, if my rezz came with recruiting?

[LoRab]

The question was more towards LoRab, but thanks just as much, SVS. [jest color]I doubt I'm a fun player, so I guess I can expect you to rezz me. [/jest] Outside the logic you pointed out for "automatically assuming rezzed would be recruited", do you think there is any sense for a role described as "possible rezz" to imply that rezz also comes with recruiting? Do you think the Hosts wouldn't have announced a recruitment in the thread after my rezz, if my rezz came with recruiting?

I do not think they would announce a recruitment immediately following, as that would be too obvious. I would assume there would be a delay on the announcement. If there were a secret team, there would probably be no announcement at all.

[S~V~S]

I have played a few games with rezz recruits, and they were not announced.

And that had no bearing on you, Rico, I worded it badly and meant no insult. I think it would be fairly obvious I meant Typh; I would have rezzed him were I a neutral with a rezz. But I don't think most people play for the same reasons I do. Fun > winning.