[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

[Marmot]

[Strawhenge]

see now im just trolling the thread i should just go

[Marmot]

see now im just trolling the thread i should just go

No! Come back. Tell me why I'm bad?

[Strawhenge]

see now im just trolling the thread i should just go

No! Come back. Tell me why I'm bad?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*snip* -- MM things

I think the chief concern for most people is that you're interpretation of MM, even if genuine, isn't as absolutely solid as it must be to justify his lynch. There aren't that many lynches left, we can't afford to waste one on dubious evidence. If we're wrong to have those doubts, I think you are capable of conveying that. I know you've tried, but if you can resist the burnout then I think you could try even harder.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

you're interpretation

Oh FFS. Really? Epi, please enroll me in your class.

[Epignosis]

you're interpretation

Oh FFS. Really? Epi, please enroll me in your class.

You don't want it this week. I literally had a kid start stabbing his textbook with a pencil. He's the size of linebacker too.

Also, my classroom phone hasn't worked in a year.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I literally had a kid start stabbing his textbook with a pencil. He's the size of linebacker too.

[Strawhenge]

*snip* -- MM things

I think the chief concern for most people is that you're interpretation of MM, even if genuine, isn't as absolutely solid as it must be to justify his lynch. There aren't that many lynches left, we can't afford to waste one on dubious evidence. If we're wrong to have those doubts, I think you are capable of conveying that. I know you've tried, but if you can resist the burnout then I think you could try even harder.

I don't know what else about him you want me to say.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*snip* -- MM things

I think the chief concern for most people is that you're interpretation of MM, even if genuine, isn't as absolutely solid as it must be to justify his lynch. There aren't that many lynches left, we can't afford to waste one on dubious evidence. If we're wrong to have those doubts, I think you are capable of conveying that. I know you've tried, but if you can resist the burnout then I think you could try even harder.

I don't know what else about him you want me to say.

Build dat case in its fullest splendor. Fill it with beautiful Strawhenge post formatting. Make me weep as I gaze upon it.

Because right now, I can't determine whether you're trying to influence me to follow your gut read. I don't have your gut. I have my gut.

[Strawhenge]

Honestly I'm just trying to minimally participate in the discussion so poor MP07 and Slewny don't get sad. But you've given me a mote of inspiration. Let's see what I can do.

[Marmot]

Flash was unconventional, but Bullzeye and I had a good back and forth (I was "bad", but I don't consider Flash a true Mafia game).

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/search ... 2&sr=posts

Last Man Standing was another unconventional one (again, not a true Mafia game), but:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/search ... 5&sr=posts

My point in all this is that Bullzeye seemed perfectly fine with MacDougall calling him bad.

That's unlike him if he's a civilian, from my experience.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 041#p87041

Monty Python. Here's a normal mafia game (closed setup). Bullzeye is mafia, and Long Con is his teammate. Long Con says Bullzeye is info-dumping, but Bullzeye "shrugs it off", even while he is heatedly calling Boogs a liar for his accusations.

[Marmot]

Honestly I'm just trying to minimally participate in the discussion so poor MP07 and Slewny don't get sad. But you've given me a mote of inspiration. Let's see what I can do.

If I ask nicely, will you stop voting for me?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd like to hear what everyone thinks of Fuzz in light of a specific point. When asked why he didn't pursue Floyd after his "thread text" slip (which occurred in a conversation between Floyd and Fuzz), these were Fuzz's answers:

Diiny I didn't push him because I didn't want to lynch him in his first game for that. It was emotion-driven ignorance. I thought he might become engaged in his defense, but that was not the case. I don't regret not pushing him, I'd do it again every time.

Diiny you are correct. I thought I made that abundantly clear at the time. I posted that I found it objectively scummy but wasn't going to personally pursue it. I attempted to be clear that I was aware my decision was an illogical one.

It's not being nice, it's wanting to give him a chance to fail. My first game I was Mafia and made a comeback for the win. I have a large ego and enjoy it when other people fail things I succeeded at. It falls under "illogical" all the same. I'm curious though, are you going to vote me for it?

He has made a claim that must either be taken or left at face value. I'm going to leave my own perspective on the matter at the door for now. I just want to hear what the rest of you think when you read these responses.

[Strawhenge]

Honestly I'm just trying to minimally participate in the discussion so poor MP07 and Slewny don't get sad. But you've given me a mote of inspiration. Let's see what I can do.

If I ask nicely, will you stop voting for me?

Serious sirengif right there.

Okay, gonna build me a case.

[Strawhenge]

Ah fuck 14 pages. Nah, burnout wins.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ah fuck 14 pages. Nah, burnout wins.

You're an awesome mafia player and I believe in you.

[Marmot]

Honestly I'm just trying to minimally participate in the discussion so poor MP07 and Slewny don't get sad. But you've given me a mote of inspiration. Let's see what I can do.

If I ask nicely, will you stop voting for me?

Serious sirengif right there.

Okay, gonna build me a case.

I'm scummy scum-scumuffins with huckleberries inside.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm scummy scum-scumuffins with huckleberries inside.

Hey, look what I found!

Spoiler: show

The following content is from RYM #86, not this game

Explanation pretty, pretty please.

the "Haterade" reference is one you'll likely not understand. in Game #80, an RYM first time player named Haterade played his first and only game so far. he was scum.

and midway through the game, he suggested his town power role was "the ability to kill townies at night".

he got away with it and won the game as scum because everyone was delighted to chow down that WIFOMburger.

Straw's post has that waffly taste about it in which he wants to dismiss your own WIFOM behavior -- but takes advantage of Burger's mention of The Haterade Incident to paint your post in a worse light. it's opportunistic, and with Straw's scum flip i think it reflects well on you.

That's an awesome story, actually.

Let's see if I can pull off the same feat.

[Marmot]

I'd like to hear what everyone thinks of Fuzz in light of a specific point. When asked why he didn't pursue Floyd after his "thread text" slip (which occurred in a conversation between Floyd and Fuzz), these were Fuzz's answers:

Diiny I didn't push him because I didn't want to lynch him in his first game for that. It was emotion-driven ignorance. I thought he might become engaged in his defense, but that was not the case. I don't regret not pushing him, I'd do it again every time.

Diiny you are correct. I thought I made that abundantly clear at the time. I posted that I found it objectively scummy but wasn't going to personally pursue it. I attempted to be clear that I was aware my decision was an illogical one.

It's not being nice, it's wanting to give him a chance to fail. My first game I was Mafia and made a comeback for the win. I have a large ego and enjoy it when other people fail things I succeeded at. It falls under "illogical" all the same. I'm curious though, are you going to vote me for it?

He has made a claim that must either be taken or left at face value. I'm going to leave my own perspective on the matter at the door for now. I just want to hear what the rest of you think when you read these responses.

Epignosis would count all the adverbs.

As per the last comment, if RadicalFuzz is claiming to have a large ego, then wouldn't it excite him to be the one to "call Floyd on the slip"?

RadicalFuzz also seemed to know that Floyd was a new player and this was his first game, even saying that he didn't want to push the envelope because Floyd was new. However, Fuzz still asked in this post, the same one that caught Floyd off guard, if Floyd had replaced into the game. I don't see how could know one but not the other. And also, the direction of the question, to everyone but Floyd, isn't necessary.

[Marmot]

I'm scummy scum-scumuffins with huckleberries inside.

Hey, look what I found!

Spoiler: show

The following content is from RYM #86, not this game

Explanation pretty, pretty please.

the "Haterade" reference is one you'll likely not understand. in Game #80, an RYM first time player named Haterade played his first and only game so far. he was scum.

and midway through the game, he suggested his town power role was "the ability to kill townies at night".

he got away with it and won the game as scum because everyone was delighted to chow down that WIFOMburger.

Straw's post has that waffly taste about it in which he wants to dismiss your own WIFOM behavior -- but takes advantage of Burger's mention of The Haterade Incident to paint your post in a worse light. it's opportunistic, and with Straw's scum flip i think it reflects well on you.

That's an awesome story, actually.

Let's see if I can pull off the same feat.

I remember that one.

In case you didn't notice, I'm trying to spur Strawhenge into action.

[Russtifinko]

RIP Elo and sig.

Day 9 has ended. Elohcin has been killed by ?????. She was Animals.

No surprise there. RIP Elohcin.

I was talking about the flip.

Ah! That makes much more sense!

Flash was unconventional, but Bullzeye and I had a good back and forth (I was "bad", but I don't consider Flash a true Mafia game).

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/search ... 2&sr=posts

Last Man Standing was another unconventional one (again, not a true Mafia game), but:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/search ... 5&sr=posts

My point in all this is that Bullzeye seemed perfectly fine with MacDougall calling him bad.

That's unlike him if he's a civilian, from my experience.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 041#p87041

Monty Python. Here's a normal mafia game (closed setup). Bullzeye is mafia, and Long Con is his teammate. Long Con says Bullzeye is info-dumping, but Bullzeye "shrugs it off", even while he is heatedly calling Boogs a liar for his accusations.

Thanks, MM! Good find. I'll reread Bullz tomorrow, but at first glance that looks like a useful idea.

The only other game I've found where I played with a baddie Bullz was Bioshock. Not a lot to go on there imo, but the link is below for those interested. He wasn't really heavily suspected, but at one point Dom, who was civ, came after him a bit. He didn't really overreact, but he did have a moderately strongly worded retort. I'd have to search speed games to try to find anything else.

I'd like to hear what everyone thinks of Fuzz in light of a specific point. When asked why he didn't pursue Floyd after his "thread text" slip (which occurred in a conversation between Floyd and Fuzz), these were Fuzz's answers:

Diiny I didn't push him because I didn't want to lynch him in his first game for that. It was emotion-driven ignorance. I thought he might become engaged in his defense, but that was not the case. I don't regret not pushing him, I'd do it again every time.

Diiny you are correct. I thought I made that abundantly clear at the time. I posted that I found it objectively scummy but wasn't going to personally pursue it. I attempted to be clear that I was aware my decision was an illogical one.

It's not being nice, it's wanting to give him a chance to fail. My first game I was Mafia and made a comeback for the win. I have a large ego and enjoy it when other people fail things I succeeded at. It falls under "illogical" all the same. I'm curious though, are you going to vote me for it?

He has made a claim that must either be taken or left at face value. I'm going to leave my own perspective on the matter at the door for now. I just want to hear what the rest of you think when you read these responses.

JJJ, I'd agree with you that it looks somewhat bad. And I am pretty sure your perspective on this is obvious, since you voted for Fuzz yesterday. But I'd think that you of all people would be interested in when a candidate looks TOO bad. I mean, you're telling us you're civ, and you were neck deep in Mac defense.

I was also a little surprised at you telling Rico you wouldn't IMMEDIATELY crucify him after today's result (implying that you might crucify him later if you didn't like his explanation). The past few days, I've felt like you're much more interested in finding easy people to lynch over yourself instead of finding baddies. You're still posting quality content, don't get me wrong, but it seems like you're picking on weaker targets and that you're going more with the flow of suspicions than you were before.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JJJ, I'd agree with you that it looks somewhat bad. And I am pretty sure your perspective on this is obvious, since you voted for Fuzz yesterday. But I'd think that you of all people would be interested in when a candidate looks TOO bad. I mean, you're telling us you're civ, and you were neck deep in Mac defense.

In the case of those RadicalFuzz responses, which is it?

Sure, it isn't uncommon for someone to do something that looks so bad that it is a town tell. This is obviously dangerous WIFOM territory, but I've made reads like that before. I don't understand why you're making mention of this now though -- have I made an accusation in recent memory against a player that suits the notion of looking "too bad"? You've made an assertion that my content can be described in a specific way, but without specific examples you've said very little.

I was also a little surprised at you telling Rico you wouldn't IMMEDIATELY crucify him after today's result (implying that you might crucify him later if you didn't like his explanation). The past few days, I've felt like you're much more interested in finding easy people to lynch over yourself instead of finding baddies. You're still posting quality content, don't get me wrong, but it seems like you're picking on weaker targets and that you're going more with the flow of suspicions than you were before.

Yellow: This is, as I see it, common sense -- both my approach to Rico's lynch-deciding vote and your parenthetical implication. Yes, I am inclined to think things through before I raise my pitchfork and torch. Rico made a vote that can be perceived as less than ideal, and I prompted him to describe what brought him to make that vote. If I am to judge his vote fairly, he should have the opportunity to express himself. Moreover, this game has featured quite a lot of knee-jerk scumhunting and it's truly begun to grate on me. So I thought conveying a level head might promote a healthier discussion in general.

As for the parenthetical: if I don't like Rico's explanation then yes I would be more likely to take a harder stance against him. If I don't like anyone's explanation for anything I would be more likely to take a harder stance against them. Isn't that the whole point of this thing we do called Mafia?

Orange: This is quite an accusation to make. You're telling me that I am trying to press the easy button in my suspicions for the sake of my own survival -- but again you haven't given me an example that suits that accusation. Who are the weaker targets that I have picked on? What makes you call them "weaker"?

I don't think your accusation reflects my content. On Day 7, my vote was always going to end up on either Floyd or Seaside simply because of self-preservation, and I was too exasperated by being Public Enemy #1 to try to push a case myself (who would have followed me then anyway?). On Day 8, I engaged in a bunch of different discussions, voiced my suspicions as ever before, and ended up deciding the lynch with my vote -- Floyd over MM. That's not "going with the flow" -- that's shouldering a heavy load and taking responsibility for an action that'd significantly affect the game for better or for worse.

On Day 9, "going with the flow" is the complete opposite of what I did, and the fact that you make that observation now really strikes me as disingenuous. I couldn't have possibly "gone with the flow" when I pursued a RadicalFuzz lynch, because I built the case against him myself. I drove that train. I didn't openly oppose a sig lynch because he was also a suspect of mine, but I made it clear down to the final minutes of the day phase that I wanted to lynch Fuzz based upon my own analysis of his content. He wasn't an "easy target" either, because prior to Day 9 he was a near-consensus town read.

Now it's Night 9 and I still think Fuzz is an important player to be discussed. So I'm continuing that discussion. What else would you expect of me under the circumstances?

[Matt]

RIP Eloh and Sig

Can we lynch Rico or 3J next day phase?

Rico looked pretty defensive when Dr Wilgy started asking 3J questions about their CEO jobs. In fact, 3J didn't seem too pleased to discuss anything of the sort either.

Rico, if you didn't have Elohcin pegged as Animals, then who did you think she was and why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In fact, 3J didn't seem too pleased to discuss anything of the sort either.

Yeah no kidding, it's against the freaking rules.

[Matt]

In fact, 3J didn't seem too pleased to discuss anything of the sort either.

Yeah no kidding, it's against the freaking rules.

I beg to differ.

5. No dumping information you received from the Host (whether role-related or not) into the thread. This includes statements that more often are seen as implications, rather than statements of fact (role outing). An example would be declaring that "I have reasons to believe Sloonei is Psycho Killer" without elaborating. If you suspect someone to be a certain role or alignment, use in-thread reasons to back up your assertion or speculation, even if your reasons are sourced from information you gained outside of the thread. If you are unsure if what you are about to say constitutes info dumping, please PM the hosts first before making the post. If you fail to do this and your post does violate information dumping, then you and your faction will be punished.

Explain how you'd be breaking rules. Above it says you cannot dump info you received from the host. Wilgy was asking you a question, and from the looks of it, it didn't look like he was asking you anything regarding host related info. He was asking you a question, something about me, Fuzz, Floyd, and MacD having something in common.

Also above, it says you must use in thread reasons, not reasons from outside of the thread, to accuse someone of being a certain role or alignment. Again, Wilgy was doing neither of these things. He was asking you a question, not accusing you. Here are his statements on the matter:

JJJ there's a relationship between you, and several other players. Some are dead now, but I'm pretty sure you established that relationship. I want to know from you why those players.

You, me, Fuzz, Matt F, Floyd, and Mac.

You and I are different from the others though.

It's game related, I want to know why these players have something in common, not what they have in common. I wouldn't ask for something that's top secret.

Then, Rico starts freakin' out "Nobody gets it but you two stop talking about it now!" (paraphrasing)

So can we lynch these two next coupe of day phases?

[Matt]

I'd also like to emphasize that I am interested in the reactions of 3J and (very curiously) Ricochet in regards to Dr Wilgy asking questions, which is an in-thread reason for reasonable suspicion.

[Ricochet]

Firstly, don't twist posts I've made and questions I've posed as emotional and reactionary ("defensive", "freaking out"?) when they're hardly so, just so it can add flavour to your suspicions.

Where have I said that Wilgy and JJJ should stop talking about it?

Secondly, if you say there are "in-thread reasons for reasonable suspicions" in the Wilgy and JJJ exchange, I don't see 'em. Isn't that the point of saying I don't get what they're on about and that I reckon nobody else does, either? Do you see them? Wilgy saying (aka claiming) that "a relationship between JJJ and others" exists, that JJJ and the others "are different", that all those players "have something in common", doesn't mean he's clarified any of that based on in-thread material. He's just claiming it exists. He's not arguing using that material in a clear fashion, he's just engaging with JJJ with, what to me at least, seems like a higher plane of discussion and knowledge, assumingly based on both of them being CEO assistants elected.

By Wilgy saying it's all game related, did he mean game-history related or game-design? You just take it a face value that if Wilgy said so, it's so - i.e. if Wilgy said it's in the game, it is. Cool, what is it, then, and where in the game? If it's in the game, why would Wilgy not highlight that material that exists to talk about it, instead of launching (and insisting on) vague questions and claims. If Wilgy is claiming that something in the game history binds him, JJJ and those other few players together, I'll try to track it down of course, but so far I don't see or recall seeing any such connections. Isn't that the point of saying I don't get it and that I reckon nobody else does, either, since the whole Wilgy-JJJ conversation has the whiff of "you know what I'm talking about" tone to it?

Thirdly, I had Elohcin as And She Was because of the "She doesn't care to be bothered; she just wants to space out." description. It just stuck out to me more. Furthermore, And She Was has the abilities revealed, so I could make further interpretations for her activity, compared to Animals' abilities being secret, therefore not being able to make further associations.

[Ricochet]

Doc:

Strawhenge
Matt F
Ricochet
Epignosis

@JJJ

Matt
Strawhenge
Epi
Rico

What's do these lists mean and why are the players on each of them the same?

[Ricochet]

EBWOP: What*

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In fact, 3J didn't seem too pleased to discuss anything of the sort either.

Yeah no kidding, it's against the freaking rules.

I beg to differ.

You said in the prior post you were talking about CEO-related questions. It is against the rules to talk about that in this thread. If you don't believe me then there's absolutely nothing I can do for you.

Explain how you'd be breaking rules. Above it says you cannot dump info you received from the host. Wilgy was asking you a question, and from the looks of it, it didn't look like he was asking you anything regarding host related info. He was asking you a question, something about me, Fuzz, Floyd, and MacD having something in common.

The question you've referenced may be related to in-thread information, but I don't know what it is. I don't understand the question, and I asked Doc to be more clear with me about what he means. It is an incredibly vague question and I genuinely have no idea what to do with it. I don't know "what" all of those players have in common, or "why" they have something in common, or how to even differentiate those two concepts. Doc is being extremely secretive about whatever method he is employing, and you're frankly ridiculous to expect me to know what he's talking about when you give no indication that you know yourself.

If you do know then speak up and maybe I'll be able to answer the damned question. It's getting so effing frustrating to be called suspicious for something that I have no control over -- when the people attacking me are giving me no control. It's misguided sleuthing at best and manipulative horseshit at worst.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What's do these lists mean and why are the players on each of them the same?

Once again:

[Ricochet]

What's do these lists mean and why are the players on each of them the same?

Once again:

[Marmot]

I'd also like to emphasize that I am interested in the reactions of 3J and (very curiously) Ricochet in regards to Dr Wilgy asking questions, which is an in-thread reason for reasonable suspicion.

Matt, there's a good chance that Jay and DrWilgy have some sort of connection or way of communicating behind the scenes as a result of their election to "Assistant to the CEO".

If that is a case, and that's where those lists stem from, then while the "information" is not gleaned from the host, it might come from a source other than this thread.

I don't think we should dwell on it. Clearly they aren't allowed to expound on it, and lynching them probably won't tell us anything.

[Matt]

You, me, Fuzz, Matt F, Floyd, and Mac.

You and I are different from the others though.

Ok, you seem to be referencing CEO assistant stuff that you and JJJ should be aware about, but FYI, I don't think us normies can pick up on anything from this. At least I know I can't pick up shit from it.

Rico, since you say I'm twisting shit, I wanted to quote this.

Maybe "freak out" is inappropriate.

Above, what I see, is Dr Wilgy asking 3J a question. He wasn't asking you a question. Then you come rolling in "I don't think us normies can pick up on this, I can't pick up shit from it" pretty strong language there fella, for Wilgy asking 3J (not YOU) a simple question.

As for the rest of your post, as I already stated, the reactions from you and 3J responding to Wilgy (which are reactions that occurred in thread) are enough for me.

3J - Claiming you have no idea what Dr Wilgy is talking about, then claiming "Oh wait that's stuff we're not supposed to talk about", then going back to "I don't know what he's even talking about"...c'mon dude. Also, now you and Wilgy are doing some weird list thing as Rico pointed out. So it's cool for you and Dr Wilgy to make vague lists in thread that the town has no idea what you mean, yet you can't answer his question? M'kay.

Anyway, Rico has more in thread evidence against him. Connections to all (known at least) dead baddies have been made. I've repeated these connections. I think we should get 'em next day phase.

[Marmot]

Epignosis
Matt F
Ricochet
Strawhenge

[Matt]

Epignosis
Matt F
Ricochet
Strawhenge

Unless you're being serious, in which case

[Marmot]

The order is important. Where I got those names from is unimportant.

[Matt]

The order is important. Where I got those names from is unimportant.

So am I the only player who found Rico's "I'm not getting shit from this convo" response to Dr Wilgy interesting? When Dr Wilgy wasn't even addressing Rico, he was addressing Rico's baddie partner 3J.

[Ricochet]

Two players, with particular extra status, recurrently engage in discussing events that seem unusual, related to said extra status and outside the boundaries of the game history and of what common folk might perceive, and I can't ask them questions or tell them that I don't understand what they're trying to achieve, simply because I was never mentioned by them.

You learn something every day, I guess.

Also, my list is

parsley
mint
red onions
Fabio cucumbers

[Marmot]

Red Herring
Urchin
Scallop
Halibut

Again, the order does matter.

[Ricochet]

You, me, Fuzz, Matt F, Floyd, and Mac.

You and I are different from the others though.

Ok, you seem to be referencing CEO assistant stuff that you and JJJ should be aware about, but FYI, I don't think us normies can pick up on anything from this. At least I know I can't pick up shit from it.

Rico, since you say I'm twisting shit, I wanted to quote this.

Maybe "freak out" is inappropriate.

Above, what I see, is Dr Wilgy asking 3J a question. He wasn't asking you a question. Then you come rolling in "I don't think us normies can pick up on this, I can't pick up shit from it" pretty strong language there fella, for Wilgy asking 3J (not YOU) a simple question.

As for the rest of your post, as I already stated, the reactions from you and 3J responding to Wilgy (which are reactions that occurred in thread) are enough for me.

In the quote you pulled, Wilgy is asking JJJ no questions. He's making statements.

Wilgy asking JJJ anything is not even the point. Wilgy discussing such angles and ideas, in exchange with JJJ, given their status, has led me to make that post, in which to say this content might be uninterpretable to anyone else - and certainly me, at this point. When players hint at stuff, if I can find it, I'll interpret it. If I can't, I'll say I can't.

Where have I told Wilgy and JJJ to shut up about it? You didn't answer or bring evidence.

Anyway, Rico has more in thread evidence against him. Connections to all (known at least) dead baddies have been made. I've repeated these connections. I think we should get 'em next day phase.

Repeated is an excellent word, because you've done nothing but that. Repeating. No dialogue, no exchange of ideas, just repeating your own. I have nothing else to say about the connections you keep bringing up, other than what I've already said, because I'd only repeat myself in the same kind of vacuum.

[Ricochet]

Remain in Light
'77
More Songs about Buildings and Food

oops, I don't have 4, these are the only good ones

[Ricochet]

Remain in Light
'77
More Songs about Buildings and Food

oops, I don't have 4, these are the only good ones

fixed

[Marmot]

Are you afraid of music Ricochet?

[Ricochet]

Are you afraid of music Ricochet?

I just fear it's not very good.

[Ricochet]

By Matt's logic, I don't understand why he didn't vote me to be mislynched back on D3. His charge of my connection with LC is precisely the same that started my wagon and contributed to me almost getting mislynched back then.

Sure, he'll say the rest afterwards amounts, but let's think for a second of the scenario in which that's true:

I'm LC's teammate and almost got lynched for a connection in which LC hid me inside a suspicion fabricated about bea.

After this, I proceed not to improve my moves, as a mafioso, but on the contrary, do an entire repertoire of completely awful ones, such as:
-- feeding Mac to the civilians
-- ignoring BR altogether and not reacting to her buddy buddy remarks
-- fear or refuse to buss Floyd over several Days
-- mislynch sig with a deciding vote, knowing he'd come out civ
-- scumslip

Yeah, I must be the shittiest mafia player that ever existed.

[Matt]

Alright Rico, I'm not gonna go down this road about Wilgy/3J, because you have even less info then I do about the whole thing, so it's just confusing an doesn't contribute much.

Instead, here you go...

The Case Against Ricochet

I've presented my case against Ricochet twice, but both times, I have not quoted straight from the horse's mouth. So here is my case (again) with quotes instead of just summarizing.

If you're still playing, please take time to read this. One of my better, not so outlandish cases, IMO, and believe it or not I have caught baddies in Mafia before (not just stumbling onto them like what happened with Mac)...

1.

Spoiler: show

My main suspicion at this point is Ricco. First of all, he seems to be saying a lot, without really saying anything. Even when he voiced some suspicion, it's done in an "intrigued" tone, as if he's trying to avoid confrontation. If you add to that what K4J said about how he voted at the end of day 0 on the syndicate, it's another reason to not trust him at the moment.

As for rico - he seems fairly rico for me atm. I don't have a good feel for his civ vs his bad game as I've only played a few with him and tbh, I don't remember where he ended on any of them. (This is my fault not his) but his meta seems to be what I'd expect from him.

I snipped the quote for clarity. Here, bea defends Rico while not defending him at the same time. (This opinion of mine is new upon this reread, actually) If either bea or Rico turn up bad, then this kind of statement would make me look at the other.

1. Let's assume Rico is good. Tell me why Long Con said this. Let's assume Rico is bad. You don't have to tell me why Long Con said this, I already know.

2.

Spoiler: show

Before any quotes, I'd like to point out an initial suspicion. It never sits right with me when someone claims that they will be changing and/or playing with a different style after role cards have already been distributed. This applies to Rico, and BWT. I'm not going to go back and try to quote the comment because I'm pretty sure it was Day 0. Rico stated that he'd be more zany and BWT followed suit, almost immediately after Rico. I do not recall BWT's reasoning for claiming a more zany (zanier? zaniest? are those actual words? they don't sit right with me.) and would like to hear about this. Also, someone correct me if my memory of Day 0 events are failing me.

I believe a factor of the "zaniness" is the ongoing contest with the prize going to the person who uses the most Talking Heads in their posts. Zanier and zaniest sit fine with me, as the comparative and superlative forms of 'zany'.

2. Here, we have Dr Wilgy stating his suspicion on those who claim they will change up the way they play this game. He includes Ricochet and BWT in this group. Then, Long Con comes around to save the day by pointing out the contest.

3.

Spoiler: show

Day 0 counts as much as we want it to count, as far as I know. If someone did something suspicious on Day 0, then it's valid to suspect them for it during the remainder of the game.

However, I find a preoccupation with Day 0 to be suspicious in and of itself, because there has been plenty of content during Day 1 to sift through. Focusing on Day 0 seems like an angle, a weak way to have conversation and seem to be involved.

3. The above was in response to convo between Choutas and Wilgy, however, I'd also like to note that I had been harping on the fact that Ricochet was making ties in the Day 0 thread despite our host asking us not to.

4.

Spoiler: show

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 40#p184571

I decided to link to this post instead of quoting it since it's so damn long. I think a lot of thought has gone into this post.

4. Here we have Black Rock telling us she thinks a lot of thought has been put into Rico's post and provides a link for it.

5.

Spoiler: show

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 40#p184571

Still thinking about this post actually. I'm just loving it, it's very helpful for me. Thank you.

5. Here we have Black Rock linking Rico's post again, telling us she's just "loving it", it's "very helpful".

6.

Spoiler: show

RICOCHET

ROXY

RUNDONTWALK

RUSSTIFINKO

Good

Bad

Good

Good

6. Here we have MacD's G2H read on Ricochet. It is GOOD. In this same G2H, I'd like to point out that MacD lists Black Rock and Floyd as GOOD. He also lists known civvies Bea and Roxy as BAD. Also listed bad - myself (I'm civvie!) and Dr Wilgy and Bullzeye. Considering three of his "BAD" choices are civvie, and he listed two baddie partners as "GOOD", I think this also looks good for the Doctor and Bullzeye. It also wouldn't be out of the question to think that one or more of MacD's partners can be found in MacD's "GOOD" G2H.

7.

Spoiler: show

Jimmy I don't agree with your case on Ricochet if it's based on the fact that he is using Talking Heads phrasings in his posts. Your difficulty following what he's posting is because of that.

7. Here we have MacDougall telling 3J he doesn't agree with 3J's case on Ricochet.

8.

Spoiler: show

Jimmy I don't agree with your case on Ricochet if it's based on the fact that he is using Talking Heads phrasings in his posts. Your difficulty following what he's posting is because of that.

That would be a dumb thing to case someone for, I agree. The biggest issue by far is the forced link LC attempted to draw between bea and Rico -- see the portion of my case with all the emoticons.

Tell me what you think.

Well, you did bring it up. If you think it's dumb then why have you brought it up?

I don't think that your linking idea is as huge as you do. It's something. But we have pages and pages of sorsha and golden related content. Not to mention we have an FZ case on Russ that's gathering momentum. Do you think your linking case is more of a valid reason to lynch than any of the other three cases? You are assuming that Long Con didn't just do this to get a townie lynched after he dies?

8. Here we have MacD, again, hoping to sway 3J from his Ricochet case. Instead, wants 3J to focus on Sorsha (civvie) and Golden (civvie). Also brings up a case on Russ.

Per the underline - What does everyone think of this? It feels like he's really really super duper defending Ricochet here, while discussing his own scum teammate's motivations.

9.

Spoiler: show

I read the entire thing as Jimmy getting to the end of his analysis and not having good obs on anyone and forcing himself to have a scum read to validate the whole project in his mind tbh.

I read the entire thing as Jimmy getting to the end of his analysis and not having good obs on anyone and forcing himself to have a scum read to validate the whole project in his mind tbh.

9. The above is how MacDougall would describe 3J's case on Ricochet. He basically disregards it as just 3J having no one else to look at.

10.

Spoiler: show

Hmmm

I kind of want to lynch ricochet. The Talking Heads lyrics in every post looks like role responsibility and there is only one role in the game that isn't defined on page 1. Psycho Killer?

Here's a factual motivation, in case my own disclaimer (replicating my disclaimer in the D0 private thread, that K4J and Matt referenced - hence my ideas pre-dating any challenge or motivation) in the thread isn't trustworthy or doesn't cling genuine.

Hmm I didn't see that. You are winning in a landslide hahaha.

10. Here we have MacDougall "sussing" on Ricochet because of Talking Heads lyrics. Rico explains, and MacD says "oh I didn't see that". M'kay. Anyway, in case some of you don't know, this isn't the first time a scum has been seen talking about Rico and the contest...

Spoiler: show

Sorry to see you go, BWT. Now Rico will just run away with the contest.

Indeed

11.

Spoiler: show

Dear serial killer

Although we've never met before fate has intertwined our paths. I am sure this will be very bold of me but bare my straightforwardness. I have been having very clear indications that strawhenge/sig/epignosis/rico are scum. By scum I mean scum of the earth. Thugs of the lowest order that need to be exterminated in order for both of our factions to have a decent chance to win this game. Many people call you a serial killer but they are gravely mistaken. You are a white knight upholding justice. Just kill either of those four(or two if you have stacked kills) and make this world a better place.

PS: Cherish every moment, life is too small for being petty.
PS 2: Don't kill me.

Your beautiful and all knowing friend.
Little Chris.

!

Not only am I scum for you for allegedly chatting about the SK (feel free to refresh your scum read on me, if otherwise)

but you've just went from "talking about SK is scum"

to addressing the SK himself and asking for his "help"!

There is no vigilante in this game so I recoursed to the next available role. I didn't talk about the serial killer I asked from him to kill you. Did you see any theorizing on who the SK is? Thank you for proving me right.
Seriously if you're not a scum I'm willing to retire from playing mafia. Seriously you have my word for it.

Perhaps you can try making a case against rico and getting the rest of us to comply with it rather than asking the serial killer to target them and playing a retirement gambit over it.

That would be the expected behaviour anyway.

11. Here we have Choutas asking the SK to kill Rico (as well as three other players). Mac responds lecturing Choutas, asking him to build a case on Rico instead of asking the SK to kill him. Why wasn't scum MacDougall concerned with Choutas building a case on the other three players he named?

12.

Spoiler: show

Imma watch Stop Making Sense in a bit...

I'm also presenting my Skittles Talking Heads version of a read spreadsheet. Skittles because the whole rainbow thing suddenly make me think of that and Talking Heads because hmm I wonder why...

	FZ	Will fight with understanding	A few aggressive demands, snappy lines and shooting down players' suspicions by invoking the "why would any baddie do that" viewpoint away from townreading her, but overall I'm feeling good about her.
	Zebra	I kinda like that style	Aside from getting a bit eyeballery lately, I stick to what I've said about feeling good about his activity.
	Mac	What's the matter with him? He's alright!	A two-Day hunt already against either removing low posters (his vote for rey D1) or removing undesirable ones (his seaside early D2 push) and his switch to Llama, with his thoughts on him dating way back on D1, raise me an eyebrow for now, otherwise I'd be lying if I'd deny that his activity doesn't give me an impressive town vibe.
	LC	I like this curious feeling	I sure hope he isn't "Scum Conning" and thus make me regret saying this later on, but I'm ok with his game so far. Whilst I'm not so confident it would have achieved the fishing results he desired, his bea gambit doesn't strike me as different from any baiting attempts players might try at this early stage; in fact, it's more developed than the usual bait & hook attempts I've seen. Some players are unnerved by how genuine his case seemed for a sec, but it doesn't give me the feel that it was anything but well developed.
	Roxy	She's gonna hold it, move it	Bantervotegate in the past, I see she moved to some mild, but serious thoughts, which read like regular Roxy to me so far.
	Bullzeye	Show me what you can do	No read until he's properly engaged.
	espers	Moon occults the sun
	Matt	I'm looking back	I really wouldn't mind hearing more from him on players' current activity, at least as much as he's making D0 connections
	Eloh	She must be having fun	Hardly involved so far - went for "selling" her vote D1 to the funniest poster (which was MacDougall), although she also mentioned a suss reason for Diiny which I'd like her to maybe elaborate further. That D1 caught-up-yet-not-adressing-anything post also pinged me a bit. Waiting to hear more from her, tough to discern right now if genuinely laidback or sidelining.
	Choutas	good kid, m.a.a.d city	Bit heavy on meta and such interpretations in his posts overall. On its own, if seaside will flip bad, I doubt a teammate would stick his neck for him so much - RYMers: is Choutas usually playful with this kind of thing? I've had no pings from him on Day 1 and still don't overall, although I'd say his D2 activity has dropped to slightly more wishy-washy posts and interactions.
	Sorsha	Who knows, who knows, what she's thinking	Some of her early thoughts (thinking sig "slipped", agreeing with B24 on BWT's vote) are pinging me, plus her BWT vote is clearly not stellar (but also seems like a typical sanction for BWT flip-flopping or something like that), but I don't get a strong read out of everything else. Her inquiry on LC's choice for baiting and her stance on not lynching players just for their undesirable status sound reasonable.
	motel	Who is it
	Epig	And the heat goes on	My initial feeling was also that Epig is quieter this game, but upon re-reading, that's not quite the case; furthermore, by saying he didn't step on anyone's toes yet, it still doesn't exclude the beef between FZ. and him having turned into that, as of right now. As far as I recall, when he goes quieter and players pick up on that, he always brings the argument that, technically, no one is ever satisfied with him, whether he's vocal and agressive or he suddenly cools it - and this particular discussion always reaches a sort of dead end, afterwards. The facts he brings in his rebuttals seem to check out and I don't think he was word-twisty with FZ, nonetheless I would once again stress that it wouldn't be unlike him to counter hard or to enjoy putting WIFOM or such up in the thread.
	JJJ	I got a question	I'll be perfectly honest, 9 out of 10 games, JJJ will probably disarm me with his posting volume and style; when civ, I can totally relate to it; if he's doing it as a baddie, it blinds me. That being said, his repeated questionings of what other players meant with their own suspicions did give me a slight ping, as if it's an added dimension to his inquiring that might come off as phony, since I don't recall it much in previous games. But not ready to rule on him.
	Golden	A big chief with a golden crown	My instinct has him right now at a status of not giving us enough as to feel like he's playing at his civviest. And it doesn't have anything to do with his RL hindrances or such; quite simply, out of all the big players, he gives me the feel of skating on the surface the most, currently. Furthermore, of all the players suspecting me, I'm still surprised, to say the least, of his meta-less interpretation of my defensiveness; granted, he's become more of an unfortunate spectator (i.e. getting lynched already, early on) by the time I heavily manifested these same traits in my recent previous games, still, I'd expect him to correlate this, instead of simply forwarding that my behaviour must be as plain as aggressively trying to turn the heat off me.
	sea	Cool down, stop acting crazy	His posts and reads up to his clarification/apologetic (?) statement seemed written whilst tripping balls, but now he appears to acknowledge them as such. Not sure I totally understand his "I wanted to get lynched" viewpoint (I mean, you'd still make us waste a lynch, regardless how beneficial you'd wish for your removal to be). His aversion to lurking it out (or to players doing that) is also interesting - I'd agree with some of the names he called out on (like RDW), but seeing as he dumped everyone else with minimal writing in there as well, I'll be curious to see if he keeps drumming on this policy lynching thing or develops his reads into much more in the upcoming days
	Llama	Facts are never what they seem to be	This gent has turned it very low on hunting (even for fishing purposes or on BS pings), which makes me just slightly curious if it's pure avoidance after his Recruitement debut where, as a pure-blood baddie, he BS'd everyone with one of his usual gambits. His hunch of K4J never being off'ed by a local also reminds me of how players filtered in Recruitement, after Typhoony was murdered N1, that a player who played before with him would never have done such a hideous deed (incidentally, it was Llama who killed Typhoony, but since he indeed had never played with him before, the "prediction" still came true). I wonder if it would be true in this case as well - aka an RYMer being K4J's murderer - or if Llama is just throwing such speculation in a cheeky way. Furthermore, it has to be noted that we're talking about a 7-member mafia that killed K4J; if Llama is really serious that no Syndicateer would agree to off K4J on the first Night, it's quite a strong and crazy supposition that the mafia team is strictly RYM comprised. I could technically lower him to a redder skittle for all of this, but I want to gather more info and reads on him before deciding whether to purse lynching him.
	bea	Same as she ever was	Little new input on D2, mostly on LC's "gambit". When LC announced his case on her was fake, she reacted in a playful manner, but since she returned during the Night, suddenly finding it odd that he would ever pick her. Perhaps an easy fine-tuning to the rest of the chorus that did not appreciate LC's moves? I don't think she understood too well my own suspicion on her either: I didn't imply she was steering the discussion into a "let's not give too much weight to D1 pings and such" direction, I said that I feel she pushed her credo ahead of any real activity and reads. Anyway, I still can't say that I trust bea much in this game, right now.
	rey	I'm not lost, but I don't know where I am	The more he stays in the game and plays nada, the more he'll give me the worst vibes, because of his Recruitement stunts. In Syndicate Mafia he subbed out when he (I assume) couldn't play anymore and I'm pretty sure he had a civ role there (although there's still some unresolved conflict around that particular issue), so why hold on to the role here? I mean no offence, but he should consider subbing here as well, if he's civ and can't play.
	Devin	Why, why, why, why start it over?	Not very focused posts and votes so far. Since he's repeating his votes so far (Diiny) I'd expect him to elaborate some more. That throwback post about how rey played as an SK, given that he more or less pulled the same card with a similar status, really doesn't sit well with me and gives me a bad vibe.
	MM	Takes a lot of time to push away the nonsense	Ugh. Getting tired of this feeling. I don't find that his posts have a lot of substance so far, he made his D1 vote based on "pingiest of pings" and has left today a vote adrift, because he'll go AWOL. What was his eyeballin' of Russ for, even? Russ said the Host warned him on participation requirements, not that anyone else via supposed BTSC did. Anyway, Marsh is being Marsh and whilst I probably need to take a break from being annoyed of Marsh being Marsh, I pretty much get nothing but bad vibes from him currently.
	RDW	Better ru- nah too easy	I guess we still need a Bass player, don't we? So far his posts seems like whole lotta waffling, with every major thought he came up with sounding more like a different culture mentality ("players should just post gut reads instead of elaborating"; "scum players would act tearjerky about the night victims" etc.) than some serious suss leads. At least in my view, of course.
	Floyd	...comes to town	Must be town. Seriously though, those ghost moves, I don't like them one bit.
	b24	Same as he ever was	AWOL since Day 1. My suspicion of him still stands.
	Wilgy	Doctor, doctor, tell me who you are	Until further development, same as I was saying. No me gusta his D1 vote.
	sig	Setting a bad example	Feeling much worse about him since the BWT vote, I still don't get what he meant by "them" in the context of HB being killed by one SK.
??????	Diiny	Flippy floppy	Holy shit, I was this close to green skittle him (just like on D1), until dat flip-flop on Wilgy.

12. Here we have Ricochet giving Mac and Long Con green skittles in his skittles read.

13.

Spoiler: show

Mac - this would be some major freaking 5 Michelin stars on-a-plate bussing and I don't have any pings on Mac to even begin suspecting such him performing such an in-our-face-ness; town until more flips influence any change in my perception of him

13. Here is Rico's second skittles read, giving Mac the green for good skittle.

14.

Spoiler: show

I won't pull the trigger on JJJ without having re-read him, which is not simply impossible. I respect him as a player, regardless of what it'll turn out that he tried to do in this game. If he's mafia, it'll be the juiciest and craftiest distancing from/bussing of a teammate I can think of. If he's good, he will have burned himself too much in that townread of MacBaddie - I got punished and mislynched for way softer looking defending, a few times. In a way, I can agree that we can't proceed too much in the game without clarifying this did-he-didn't-he matter, nonetheless I'm not going to choose in lack of having done any analysis. I have no objections to a Floyd lynch, but if JJJ is mafia, I can't take any chances to have contributed to his counterwagon succeeding, either.

14. Despite giving Floyd orange skittle reads all game, saying stuff like "Floyd is continuing down the WTF path", and even displaying a meme towards Floyd that said "Getting real tired of your bullshit", refused to vote for Floyd because of some weird counterlynch excuse. M'kay.

15.

Spoiler: show

Okay, Matt F. You asked me if Mac has a tendency to vote for his mafia team mates on Day 1. I did some research into the RYM Mafia archives and didn't struggle at all to find valid examples:

But...he didn't vote for any teammates in this game.

15. Here is Ricochet's supposed "slip". Judging by everything else I just laid out, I believe it was a slip.

Serious peeps, next day phase, can we lynch the eff out of this guy?

[Ricochet]

I congratulate you on the new formatting, but you have just repeated for a fourth or fifth time, at least by my count, what you have already said. Again, I have nothing to add to what I've said, if that's the format in which you like to conduct casemaking and discussion.

I cannot congratulate you, however, in catching any baddies with this format of a case on me, because I am not one and your case is consequently a huge flop.

Such a flop that you even go to great lengths as to interpret what is factually a contest unrelated to the mafia dynamics, but related instead to the additional flavour of the gameplay a player may choose (the Live Wire) and to the gameplay flavour choice announced on Day 0 into a baddie trait. I'm referring, of course, to #2 and #11. May I remind you that Wilgy mislynched BWT with that "gameplay flavour changers are scum" attitude?

The LC comments on those points are blow completely out of proportions. I am bad because (#11) commented on me being the only guy who puts a lot of flavour into his posts and thus has the first chance to win an award that's unrelated to the mafia core of the game? You are delusional!

11 out of 15 points are what confirmed baddies did in relation with me, not what I did in relation to confirmed baddies. That's 73%. You have made a case in which you are willing to a lynch a player for 73% what the mafia did and 27% what the player did. I find this abominable.

I'll refrain from now, but if I get mislynched on D10, you will hear me calling you names at the very second prior to going dead. You have my word, good sir.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

3J - Claiming you have no idea what Dr Wilgy is talking about, then claiming "Oh wait that's stuff we're not supposed to talk about", then going back to "I don't know what he's even talking about"...c'mon dude. Also, now you and Wilgy are doing some weird list thing as Rico pointed out. So it's cool for you and Dr Wilgy to make vague lists in thread that the town has no idea what you mean, yet you can't answer his question? M'kay.

You're not listening to me and at this point I think it might be deliberate. I'm going to case you when I get home.