[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

[Diiny]

How can these two highlighted statements coexist?

I think I know what he means but I'm gonna let him answer

linki: ...I was wrong. Fuzz, how does lynching Bullzye fix the problem of him being dead weight? We lose a townie, and that brings scum closer to victory.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I was aware there was some suspicion of him previously but I feel like the main part is his frankly awful behaviour recently. Can you point me in the direction of some cases? I'm looking myself but this thread is a labyrinth and I ain't no Pan

JJJ

Epignosis

Earlier JJJ

[JaggedJimmyJay]

When I say "removes one townie from the game" I refer to him being literal dead weight. If it's Lynch-or-Lose and one civilian isn't willing to cooperate, then that's just Lose. This is, assuming, that my benefit of the doubt that he's attempting to win is unfounded.

Lynching a townie in a potential LyLo scenario fixes exactly zero problems -- indeed it is the worst possible outcome.

You've just given a justification for lynching a townie i.e. Mac and Sorsha.

[Diiny]

You're not even suggesting he's scum and you're expressing your desire to vote for him, dude

[RadicalFuzz]

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Bullzeye doesn't vote, post, or think about this game. Let us also assume that he is town. That is effectively a dead civilian in that he won't engage with the game whatsoever. If we mislynch someone else, then depending on whether you'd prefer to go by the worst case scenario (6-3-1 today) or something slightly better, we have lost two civilians in one phase.

Let me use numbers to illustrate this better. I'll be using the worst-case scenario here and assuming that Bullzeye is civilian.

Today, pre-lynch: 6-3-1
Today, once Bullzeye gives up: 5-3-1
Today, if we mislynch: 4-3-1
Tonight, when Mafia kill: 3-3-1
Tonight, when SK kills: 2-3-1

If Bullzeye gives up and is town that automatically kills a townie and drastically reduces our chances of winning. Because that's such a bad thing to do as town, I believe he's scum trying to coast by.

I believe he's scum because he's intentionally put us in this horrible situation if he isn't. I have no reason to believe that Bullzeye doesn't know this.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There are 9 players alive, not 10.

[RadicalFuzz]

Updated numbers, then. Again, worst case assuming Bullzeye is civilian.

Today: 5-3-1
After Bullzeye gives up: 4-3-1
Mislynch: 3-3-1
Mafia kill: 2-3-1
SK kill: 1-3-1

Day 12 begins with two civilians, one of which has given up. Mafia can force a tie at best, lead a lynch at worst, and win by process of elimination.

[Diiny]

bullzye 'giving up' doesn't literally reduce the number of townies in a game; mafia are no closer to their win condition. if you think he's town there is zero reason to lynch him at all in the slightest. The only reason you should lynch him is because you think he's scum. the horrible situation he's put us in isn't the one you're describing.

Why do you think he's scum?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Updated numbers, then. Again, worst case assuming Bullzeye is civilian.

Today: 5-3-1
After Bullzeye gives up: 4-3-1
Mislynch: 3-3-1
Mafia kill: 2-3-1
SK kill: 1-3-1

Day 12 begins with two civilians, one of which has given up. Mafia can force a tie at best, lead a lynch at worst, and win by process of elimination.

I don't get it. You're removing Bullzeye from the equation for giving up and then again when he is lynched? Or is someone else the mislynch?

In any event, if the game is ever 2-3-1 then it means nothing what Bullzeye does because town has already lost mathematically.

[RadicalFuzz]

I'm removing Bullzeye from the numbers at the point of Bullzeye giving up. That is not a lynch.

Diiny I think he's scum because I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt he's not an asshole who decides to intentionally lose games for his team by just giving up.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Meh, I have to leave. There's an outside chance I'll be able to use my phone before the deadline and make any difference if necessary, but I am not going to count on it.

I'm content with a Bullzeye lynch. I poured my heart out to him and tried to motivate him with earnest advice, and it just hasn't yielded anything even after he said he would contribute.

Spoiler: show

Bullzeye, let's have a man-to-man.

If you're town and get lynched, I'm going to be really bummed -- not just because of the very negative effect it would have on town's chances to win, but because it was at least in part motivated by you throwing in the towel. If you have struggled to keep up with this game, I understand. It has moved very fast in nearly every phase. That's no reason to give up though. You'd really be letting a lot of people down, not just those of us still alive but also a lot of people who've already died. The biggest reason this thread has gotten so big is that a lot of people have put an immense effort into this game for nearly an entire month.

That's a huge investment for all of us. If you're town and you just wait for us to lynch you so you can be free of the obligation, that's really unfair to everyone who has put so much work into this game. I'm not asking you to change the world -- just give us something substantial that we have a fair ability to read and work with. Heck you might still get lynched, but if you're town at least we'd be left with your legacy.

I genuinely mean no offense.

I don't understand how a townie can read this post and then still blow me off. I am in a glass case of emotion!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Last minute reminder that shenanigans are always a strong possibility and a decisive tally is needed to ensure town has full command of this lynch. Okay bye.

[Diiny]

I'm removing Bullzeye from the numbers at the point of Bullzeye giving up. That is not a lynch.

And it doesn't advance mafia's win condition. Lynching him fixes nothing, and I need to hear from you that you actually believe he's scum.

Diiny I think he's scum because I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt he's not an asshole who decides to intentionally lose games for his team by just giving up.

It's completely impossible in your head that he's just struggling to catch up and a townie? If yes, tell me why.

[Ricochet]

Remember who proposed liability lynches and lynches for sake of info?

Mac

[Diiny]

I don't think that's fuzz's reasoning here. There's no info to be gained. I really don't understand fuzz's reasoning here.

[RadicalFuzz]

Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding Bullzeye's intentions. When I see what Bullzeye has said about essentially giving up I imagine that as literally not returning to the game to vote, post, anything.

The reason I fail to believe that he's town struggling to catch up is because there's the option of simply not catching up but still trying to help, and he's not taking it. I've been in that position, having dozens of pages to read, and it sucks. I didn't read them, but I didn't just throw in the towel. Just because you're behind doesn't give you license to screw over your team. I believe that Bullzeye is employing a strategy to survive longer without being required to contribute, and that is scum behavior.

[Diiny]

I agree with the second part.

Why did you post what you did about numbers and bullzye's giving up? It attempts (and fails) to justify a townie bullzye lynch? what does lynching a townie bullzye 'solve', as you originally posted?

[Diiny]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

[Diiny]

Wilgy's online :o

[DrWilgy]

Wilgy's online :o

Yes. Just reading though. What's up?

I should vote Bullzeye for now. Don't wanna miss vote. I trust Chou + I like being alive. #Chou2016

[Diiny]

Wilgy's online :o

Yes. Just reading though. What's up?

I should vote Bullzeye for now. Don't wanna miss vote. I trust Chou + I like being alive. #Chou2016

I think you'll find there's tons of questions for you

[Ricochet]

Wilgy's online :o

Yes. Just reading though. What's up?

I should vote Bullzeye for now. Don't wanna miss vote. I trust Chou + I like being alive. #Chou2016

You trust Choutas?

You mean dead Choutas?

You mean the Choutas you voted to mislynch?

Explain yourself.

[RadicalFuzz]

I agree with the second part.

Why did you post what you did about numbers and bullzye's giving up? It attempts (and fails) to justify a townie bullzye lynch? what does lynching a townie bullzye 'solve', as you originally posted?

It's intended to be an "even if this condition is false, the alternative is poor" statement. If Bullzeye has given up then that's the quote-unquote "safest" mislynch we have because the only loss is a number as opposed to a number and legitimate input. I use the term safest there extremely loosely.

Did Wilgy express suspicion of Bullzeye when Choutas was alive based on the same criteria? Or put Bullz & Choutas in a "one is mafia" bucket?

[DrWilgy]

Wilgy's online :o

Yes. Just reading though. What's up?

I should vote Bullzeye for now. Don't wanna miss vote. I trust Chou + I like being alive. #Chou2016

I think you'll find there's tons of questions for you

Yeah I know, but still shooting at the range. Just on mobile for afew min.

Linki: Yeah, and I was wrong. That was already established.

[Marmot]

He could also be a baddie who doesn't have time to catch up or he could be a civvie who has not interest in catching up.

Pick one.

I made a similar assertion about Choutas yesterday, and you found the decision to do so uninspiring. Why the fuck would you ask me to do the same thing again today?

I don't remember what you're talking about re: Choutas (unless you mean your actual vote?). I'm asking you for a gun to head read.

Oh. GTH read = Bad.

I said I thought Choutas late behavior yesterday was suspicious. He said early on he had no interest in continuing the game, and wanted to be modkilled. When his lynch was imminent, he changed his mind.

You called that behavior of me suspicious, but I feel like you're asking me to replicate it by stating what I think Bullzeye is from this situation. I don't like that. If you were asking for an overall read, I misunderstood.

[Diiny]

Will you be able to substantially answer those questions before the deadline in about two hours?

[Ricochet]

Wilgy's online :o

Yes. Just reading though. What's up?

I should vote Bullzeye for now. Don't wanna miss vote. I trust Chou + I like being alive. #Chou2016

I think you'll find there's tons of questions for you

Yeah I know, but still shooting at the range. Just on mobile for afew min.

Linki: Yeah, and I was wrong. That was already established.

Explain what you trust in Choutas.

[Marmot]

Last minute reminder that shenanigans are always a strong possibility and a decisive tally is needed to ensure town has full command of this lynch. Okay bye.

A decisive tally is easier for scum to hide in, and is doubly bad if we lynch incorrectly.

[Bullzeye]

I deserve to die because I'm literally just a distraction at this point. Some of the stuff that has been said/implied about me I've taken kinda personally and don't want to be involved with it any more. I'm not being a lazy, selfish asshole who is deliberately trying to screw anyone over. I would never pretend to be struggling or try to coast on other people's hard work. I have tried my best at this game and it just hasn't worked out for me because I've had a lot going on and it takes me a long time to read things. I didn't ask to survive this long. In the event that for some reason you all decide not to lynch me again, I'll be voting because I hate missing votes and feel bad for MP that I've neglected his game so much. I'm going to cast my vote for someone that I doubt will get any more votes so that I'm unlikely to be saving myself. That person is gonna be Ricochet. I'm genuinely sorry that my being unable to play seems to be such a huge issue for some people. I hope the civs still have enough people left over to win with me safely out of the way.

[RadicalFuzz]

Last minute reminder that shenanigans are always a strong possibility and a decisive tally is needed to ensure town has full command of this lynch. Okay bye.

A decisive tally is easier for scum to hide in, and is doubly bad if we lynch incorrectly.

Having the lynch possibly be changed around by Drugs and losing the game is better?

[Marmot]

Bullzeye, are you keeping your cards close to your chest knowing what will result if you are lynched?

[Marmot]

Last minute reminder that shenanigans are always a strong possibility and a decisive tally is needed to ensure town has full command of this lynch. Okay bye.

A decisive tally is easier for scum to hide in, and is doubly bad if we lynch incorrectly.

Having the lynch possibly be changed around by Drugs and losing the game is better?

Certainly not. I forgot that Drugs could be on the prowl again.

[Diiny]

I agree with the second part.

Why did you post what you did about numbers and bullzye's giving up? It attempts (and fails) to justify a townie bullzye lynch? what does lynching a townie bullzye 'solve', as you originally posted?

It's intended to be an "even if this condition is false, the alternative is poor" statement. If Bullzeye has given up then that's the quote-unquote "safest" mislynch we have because the only loss is a number as opposed to a number and legitimate input. I use the term safest there extremely loosely.

Did Wilgy express suspicion of Bullzeye when Choutas was alive based on the same criteria? Or put Bullz & Choutas in a "one is mafia" bucket?

A safe mislynch isn't 'solving a problem', though. I feel like you're trying to back away from those words in particular.

[Ricochet]

Bullzeye, I really doubt we have the numbers and time anymore to treat you as "a distraction" and to lynch you "safely out of the way". Just saying.

[Ricochet]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

It makes me want to hit the eject button, like I never felt the need to in any game, however tense, throughout an entire year of mafia'ing. It feels like it tangles things up to no end. Bullzeye could end up a civ who really threw in the towel and hissed at us to get a life, and it still wouldn't say anything definitive about its accusers, because they might have well just gotten spooked and read him unhelpful = scum.

Overall, just like you said despite my gut read that this kind of tower throwing is not scumvibe, he's pushed it enough to create the nagging thought of a tactic.

Still... Where has the case making gone to? JJJ pushed for a Wilgy lynch for two and half Days and now he voted Bullzeye, because he pushed for answers and contributions until the man said he has no obligation to comply to anything.

I don't know how I fully feel about Bullzeye, because he didn't land on any particular extremes in my reads, just on the spectrum of very spotty stuff. We all have very spotty stuff. I never got to compare my reads with JJJ's last on Bullzeye, because I did the latest spreadsheet this entire afternoon. I'll probably go and try to revisit now.

[Marmot]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

Come lynch RadicalFuzz with me.

[Diiny]

I deserve to die because I'm literally just a distraction at this point. Some of the stuff that has been said/implied about me I've taken kinda personally and don't want to be involved with it any more. I'm not being a lazy, selfish asshole who is deliberately trying to screw anyone over. I would never pretend to be struggling or try to coast on other people's hard work. I have tried my best at this game and it just hasn't worked out for me because I've had a lot going on and it takes me a long time to read things. I didn't ask to survive this long. In the event that for some reason you all decide not to lynch me again, I'll be voting because I hate missing votes and feel bad for MP that I've neglected his game so much. I'm going to cast my vote for someone that I doubt will get any more votes so that I'm unlikely to be saving myself. That person is gonna be Ricochet. I'm genuinely sorry that my being unable to play seems to be such a huge issue for some people. I hope the civs still have enough people left over to win with me safely out of the way.

Nobody thinks you're an asshole, Radfuzz actually said he refused to believe that, hence his scum read of you. Well, I don't know what other people actually think, but I'm certain nobody's called you one in the thread

If you really feel sorry for MP and town, you'll play mafia. You'll interact. Stop with this wifom and play mafia. Read the last, like, 5 pages and speak your mind. I feel like you're pushing the idea that the only alternative to completely catching up all 200 pages or whatever is giving up. I don't believe that.

[Diiny]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

Come lynch RadicalFuzz with me.

Is this to rico or me?

either way: why not bullzye; why not wilgy?

[Marmot]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

Come lynch RadicalFuzz with me.

Is this to rico or me?

either way: why not bullzye; why not wilgy?

I don't agree with the case on DrWilgy.

I'm not opposed to lynching Bullzeye. He's my second option.

But you're asking Rico what he thinks of RadicalFuzz/Bullzeye. I want to know what you think.

[Diiny]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

It makes me want to hit the eject button, like I never felt the need to in any game, however tense, throughout an entire year of mafia'ing. It feels like it tangles things up to no end. Bullzeye could end up a civ who really threw in the towel and hissed at us to get a life, and it still wouldn't say anything definitive about its accusers, because they might have well just gotten spooked and read him unhelpful = scum.

Overall, just like you said despite my gut read that this kind of tower throwing is not scumvibe, he's pushed it enough to create the nagging thought of a tactic.

Still... Where has the case making gone to? JJJ pushed for a Wilgy lynch for two and half Days and now he voted Bullzeye, because he pushed for answers and contributions until the man said he has no obligation to comply to anything.

I don't know how I fully feel about Bullzeye, because he didn't land on any particular extremes in my reads, just on the spectrum of very spotty stuff. We all have very spotty stuff. I never got to compare my reads with JJJ's last on Bullzeye, because I did the latest spreadsheet this entire afternoon. I'll probably go and try to revisit now.

What's it with you and taking stances, or, rather, not taking stances lately?

There's a deadline in less than two hours.

[Diiny]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

Come lynch RadicalFuzz with me.

Is this to rico or me?

either way: why not bullzye; why not wilgy?

I don't agree with the case on DrWilgy.

I'm not opposed to lynching Bullzeye. He's my second option.

But you're asking Rico what he thinks of RadicalFuzz/Bullzeye. I want to know what you think.

I've made it clear that I'm not big on fuzz's bullzeye reasoning, he's really trying to back away from that logic and not really explaining himself in a way that makes me very comfortable.

I prefer radicalfuzz to bullzeye, but I still think bullzeye is bad. see: this latest helping of wifom and my stances on him throughout this day phase.

What's wrong with the wilgy case? If you've already said, link me.

[Diiny]

Will you be able to substantially answer those questions before the deadline in about two hours?

Wilgy, you're online and you didn't answer this even though it would help town immensely and I believe you know that it would. You're damaging town here wilgy. Why are you damaging town.

[Ricochet]

Who are you voting, rico?

Tell me what you think of this radfuzz bullzeye thing too

It makes me want to hit the eject button, like I never felt the need to in any game, however tense, throughout an entire year of mafia'ing. It feels like it tangles things up to no end. Bullzeye could end up a civ who really threw in the towel and hissed at us to get a life, and it still wouldn't say anything definitive about its accusers, because they might have well just gotten spooked and read him unhelpful = scum.

Overall, just like you said despite my gut read that this kind of tower throwing is not scumvibe, he's pushed it enough to create the nagging thought of a tactic.

Still... Where has the case making gone to? JJJ pushed for a Wilgy lynch for two and half Days and now he voted Bullzeye, because he pushed for answers and contributions until the man said he has no obligation to comply to anything.

I don't know how I fully feel about Bullzeye, because he didn't land on any particular extremes in my reads, just on the spectrum of very spotty stuff. We all have very spotty stuff. I never got to compare my reads with JJJ's last on Bullzeye, because I did the latest spreadsheet this entire afternoon. I'll probably go and try to revisit now.

What's it with you and taking stances, or, rather, not taking stances lately?

There's a deadline in less than two hours.

I don't have a grasp on things and I've lost certainty of where we at and what chances do the civs still have.

I've lost the path of absolute faith keeping me going in the right direction.

[Diiny]

I don't have a grasp on things and I've lost certainty of where we at and what chances do the civs still have.

I've lost the path of absolute faith keeping me going in the right direction.

:/ to the max

GTH on the following players:

Wilgy
Bully
Fuzzy

[Diiny]

All you need to know about town's chances in this game is that if we lynch scum we're good. that's it. So let's lynch scum.

[Marmot]

I've made it clear that I'm not big on fuzz's bullzeye reasoning, he's really trying to back away from that logic and not really explaining himself in a way that makes me very comfortable.

I prefer radicalfuzz to bullzeye, but I still think bullzeye is bad. see: this latest helping of wifom and my stances on him throughout this day phase.

What's wrong with the wilgy case? If you've already said, link me.

Actually, I have to reconsider the DrWilgy case. My point was that Choutas and Strawhenge each exhibited suspicious behavior in this game, but also played have implied that they have information. Seaside too. Choutas and seaside were both civ, and there's a decent chance Strawhenge is too. Jay tells me this "information" does not stem from his role, though he could not explain why. This situation is annoying (not Jay's fault), but I haven't had a chance to go back to that.

[Diiny]

I've made it clear that I'm not big on fuzz's bullzeye reasoning, he's really trying to back away from that logic and not really explaining himself in a way that makes me very comfortable.

I prefer radicalfuzz to bullzeye, but I still think bullzeye is bad. see: this latest helping of wifom and my stances on him throughout this day phase.

What's wrong with the wilgy case? If you've already said, link me.

Actually, I have to reconsider the DrWilgy case. My point was that Choutas and Strawhenge each exhibited suspicious behavior in this game, but also played have implied that they have information. Seaside too. Choutas and seaside were both civ, and there's a decent chance Strawhenge is too. Jay tells me this "information" does not stem from his role, though he could not explain why. This situation is annoying (not Jay's fault), but I haven't had a chance to go back to that.

It's probably ACEO stuff.

Let me know what you think of the wilgy case.

[Diiny]

I think it was extremely obvious that radfuzz wasn't calling bullzeye and asshole at all. I think it's more likely bullzye is looking for reasons to keep damaging town than misinterpreting radfuzz's posts.

Maybe I'm the idiot, though. Radfuzz, can you confirm that you thought bullzeye wasn't an asshole, and that it was this belief that resulted in your read?

[Ricochet]

I never did GTHs before and I ain't starting now. Blow my brains out.

[DrWilgy]

I will vote for whomever I need to. I would like to vote for JJJ. Bullzeye seems like an OK vote.

I will answer the questions, but I can't promise I will be in time

I am honestly trying my best, I'm sorry though.