[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

#7751

Ricochet wrote:I never did GTHs before and I ain't starting now. Blow my brains out.

If you're having trouble making up your own mind, now's not the time to refuse the suggestions of others.

#7752

Diiny wrote:
RadicalFuzz wrote:
Diiny wrote:I agree with the second part.

Why did you post what you did about numbers and bullzye's giving up? It attempts (and fails) to justify a townie bullzye lynch? what does lynching a townie bullzye 'solve', as you originally posted?
It's intended to be an "even if this condition is false, the alternative is poor" statement. If Bullzeye has given up then that's the quote-unquote "safest" mislynch we have because the only loss is a number as opposed to a number and legitimate input. I use the term safest there extremely loosely.

Did Wilgy express suspicion of Bullzeye when Choutas was alive based on the same criteria? Or put Bullz & Choutas in a "one is mafia" bucket?
A safe mislynch isn't 'solving a problem', though. I feel like you're trying to back away from those words in particular.

In the two or so years I've played every single game has had inactives. Players that don't vote and get modkilled. Literally not a single game has gone by without someone being unable to gauge how much time they have and/or are willing to commit to mafia. I despise this and would rather Bullzeye be dead than say nothing.

The wording "solve the problem" is because I see the following scenario happening:
Bullzeye survives and doesn't come back to the game
We are now effectively down a member because there are (players - 1) people talking
Mafia certainly won't kill Bullzeye because he isn't helping
SK won't kill Bullzeye because he's not a threat to the SK
We're stuck with Bullzeye, either a civilian not saying anything, or a scum not saying anything

What is the solution to this scenario? Lynch Bullzeye. I am okay with lynching Bullzeye because of his actions this phase. It is not productive to town to give up. I don't take Bullzeye for an individual who would intentionally do things to hurt his team. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Bullzeye is not doing things to intentionally hurt his team.

Rico what are you talking about with "having lost faith" and "not sure what chances the civs still have?" We have a chance, that's all we've ever needed. If you need to put absolute faith in something to function then put it in yourself. This is Mafia, there are no public absolutes. Putting faith in anybody besides yourself is exposing your back and hoping they don't have a knife. If you need a path then answer my question. Do you want a fifth win or do you want to lose?

Yes, Diiny, that's correct. My train of thought was as follows:
-Bullzeye is not an asshole who attempts to lose the game for his team
-The actions Bullzeye are taking are very detrimental to town
-Bullzeye is not intentionally attempting to decrease his team's chances of winning
-Therefore, Bullzeye must not be decreasing his teams' chances of winning

#7753

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I never did GTHs before and I ain't starting now. Blow my brains out.
If you're having trouble making up your own mind, now's not the time to refuse the suggestions of others.

I'm not refusing anything. How is a GTH demand supposed to be a suggestion, if that's what you mean?

#7754

Ricochet wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I never did GTHs before and I ain't starting now. Blow my brains out.
If you're having trouble making up your own mind, now's not the time to refuse the suggestions of others.
I'm not refusing anything. How is a GTH demand supposed to be a suggestion, if that's what you mean?

Fine, it's a demand not a suggestion.

But why say no if you haven't a better method to collect your thoughts and convey them to the thread?

#7755

I want a fifth win, Fuzz. Doesn't mean I don't have great doubts I'll achieve it. Doesn't mean I'm any less depleted in my batteries. I've been turning my reads upside down for Days and I've been clear that I feel I can't progress past them. And toDay, after the main motto in the thread was "turn everything upside down again and tinfoil a suspect", I now have to witness a goddamn maelstrom because of one player's towel throw spooking almost everyone else.

But I'll stop bitchin' now and try to make up my mind in the hour remaining.

Wilgy, can you answer the simple stuff I've asked you. I borderline hate your ACEO hint play, no matter what you're actually trying to achieve with it, because I don't understand shit from it, and it's not the first time I'm saying this, and you keep insisting with it. What do you claim I should know from Night 10 or about the SK? What do you trust in Choutas, since yesterday, when you lynched him? Answer me anything regarding this.

#7756

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I never did GTHs before and I ain't starting now. Blow my brains out.
If you're having trouble making up your own mind, now's not the time to refuse the suggestions of others.
I'm not refusing anything. How is a GTH demand supposed to be a suggestion, if that's what you mean?
Fine, it's a demand not a suggestion.

But why say no if you haven't a better method to collect your thoughts and convey them to the thread?

Because it's not a way to collect your thoughts, it's a way to discard them in form of a quick draw. And it's also partially a trial to correlate the GTH with stuff already said or stuff that will later be revealed, such as flips.

If I were to combine GTH with actual Going-Through-Head (get it), the response would look like

I'm not sure
I don't know
I have no idea

But that's not how GTH works and it's not how I'm supposed to "collect my thoughts" and see the pathway.

#7757

You don't have doubts, you have fears. Doubts don't influence decision making, they are statistical representations of likelihood. I understand your exhaustion and appreciate your redoubled effort.

#7758

Ricochet wrote:Because it's not a way to collect your thoughts, it's a way to discard them in form of a quick draw. And it's also partially a trial to correlate the GTH with stuff already said or stuff that will later be revealed, such as flips.

If I were to combine GTH with actual Going-Through-Head (get it), the response would look like

I'm not sure
I don't know
I have no idea

But that's not how GTH works and it's not how I'm supposed to "collect my thoughts" and see the pathway.

Well I won't get you hung up on this argument, but I hope you figure it out mate! We've got just a tad over 50 minutes.

#7759

Rico, does everyone have equal chances of being mafia? If the answer is yes I seriously doubt you're being sincere. If the answer is not, show me a general group of townies and scum. good and bad. whatever. just show me some kind of STANCE.

#7760

MM what are you playing at with your vote?

#7761

50 minutes 'til the deadline everyone. Let's channel our thoughts into that mindset and leave the semantics for later.

Linki: Fuzz, I suspect you. Is that a surprise to you?

#7762

Have you not criticized players in the past for "wasting" their votes on off-wagons?

#7763

He's expressed a desire to turn it into an on-wagon

#7764

RadicalFuzz wrote:Have you not criticized players in the past for "wasting" their votes on off-wagons?

This lynch isn't over Fuzz.

#7765

Diiny wrote:Rico, does everyone have equal chances of being mafia? If the answer is yes I seriously doubt you're being sincere. If the answer is not, show me a general group of townies and scum. good and bad. whatever. just show me some kind of STANCE.

No, I don't think everyone has equal chances.

If I'd group, I'd do townies/non-Mafia, ambivalent/wary and leaning bad.

I think you cannot possibly be Mafia and I don't see MM as Mafia much either.

I'm ambivalent on JJJ because how spotty his reads are, but also because of his effort and plead for the civ cause to come forth.
Also ambivalent or wary on Fuzz and Russ.

I'm not sold on motel being good, but he's not a subject today, I have told you how I see Bullzeye, to which have doubts around his towel throw action only make it worse for me to decide, unlike some of you. Lastly, I am open on the idea that, through tinfoil, DrWilgy might just be a teammate. It was admitedly the most encouraging discussion path I saw toDay.

#7766

His desire has amounted to "vote RadicalFuzz with me" so pardon me if I'm not impressed.

If one vote to four at 45 minutes till deadline isn't an off-wagon, then at what point does it become one?

#7767

Rico the organization of your post implies that you think motel room, Bullzeye, and/or DrWilgy are "leaning bad." Is this the case?

#7768

Phone post.

Given pause by Bullzeye's emotional expression. Meta question: do y'all think Bullzeye is the type to appeal to emotion as a bad guy? Not everyone is.

#7769

RadicalFuzz wrote:His desire has amounted to "vote RadicalFuzz with me" so pardon me if I'm not impressed.

If one vote to four at 45 minutes till deadline isn't an off-wagon, then at what point does it become one?

When the lynch is over and the votes are official. You can't declare a winner until the clock hits zero.

Linki: I'm somewhat wary of a Bullzeye lynch right now because nobody has denied the interest in voting against it.

#7770

EBWOP: *stated the interest, not denied.

#7771

Ok, so I've quickly looked over Bullzeye and Wilgy in my "chronology" reads and, what a surprise, they tell shit.

If Bullzeye is bad, he tapped out of both LC and Mac lynches.

If Wilgy is bad, he had a questionable moment voting LC (with LC way in front) first, casing him later, meanwhile the Mac sussing was slow, steady and kinda unflinching on the lynch Day.

Which one seems more likely to any of you? Or are both likely?

linki @ Fuzz: yes, it's the closest lean bad interpretations I can come up with

#7772

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Phone post.

Given pause by Bullzeye's emotional expression. Meta question: do y'all think Bullzeye is the type to appeal to emotion as a bad guy? Not everyone is.

Read my comment on the asshole thing. Nobody called him an asshole at all. His reaction in light of this seems forced.

Also, what he was doing before wasn't exactly the antithesis of this emotional wifom. I'm surprised this has given you pause.

#7773

Fuzz implied he's doing an asshole thing if he is town.

That leaves room to take offense.

#7774

Mac's "legacy" scumlist is still intact, save for sig. If he didn't add any fellow scumsters, it leaves JJJ, motel room and Fuzz.

What is everyone's gut read on Mac blending his teamies inside the list? Yay or nay.

#7775

So I have 4 pages to read, apparently. Since we're getting close to the deadline, Bullz gets my stamp of approval for now.

Still hoping to catch up, read Wilgy, and read Diiny by the deadline, but it's a tall order, and as JJJ said, spreading votes could be deadly at this point in the game. So the most likely case is my vote stays on Bullz.

#7776

Then again, I brought out the emotion first and if he is mafia that may have forced his hand.

Gotta go, I posted these from a toilet stall and my coworkers might wonder if I fell in.

#7777

woken up specifically on my day off for this.

#7778

I remember he said he didn't think he was an asshole because he thought he was scum or something, but yeah actually that does mean in his viewpoint he's an asshole if he's town. Rad, confirm?

Also a bit rich calling someone an asshole after you got mad at mac.

#7779

Re-reading JJJ's spews on Bullzeye was not illuminating, it doesn't give me any more mixed feelings than my own reads (which were both ways, mind you) did.

If this were the last minute of EoD, between the prospects of Bullzeye and Wilgy, based on questioning the interactions to the limit, I'd go with Wilgy.

#7780

RadicalFuzz wrote:His desire has amounted to "vote RadicalFuzz with me" so pardon me if I'm not impressed.

If one vote to four at 45 minutes till deadline isn't an off-wagon, then at what point does it become one?

I've stated my reasons for wanting to lynch you before. I've made my suspicions clear. I'm not going to retype them at this moment in time because they are already existing, and time is running short.

But I have noted your recent, consistent behavior in misreading and discrediting my posts. Many times when I have made a point over the past couple days, you have chosen to address my word usage. You have misrepresented my posts (intentional or not). I brought up an idea to discuss that you linked to my suspicion of you to discredit. And you've also admitted that your behavior at points in this game is scummy, but still seem astonished that I (or Jay or anyone) would call you for it several days later and after you pointed it out first.

You also called me illogical, and I don't even know why. You stated in that post that you skimmed the posts with your name in it, but still managed to come to the conclusion that I am "the worst kind of civilian, who throws logical thought out the window, or scum." That was your response to my ISO of your baddie interactions.

So yeah, I want to lynch you today.

#7781

RadicalFuzz wrote:MM can you reiterate your answer to my question, I don't understand the linki.

I don't know about Bullzeye's meta, but publicly giving up reads anything but SK. In the meta I'm used to it's usually a scum-oriented thing to do, but I'm not sure about here, particularly with the record-setting post count. I'd prefer Wilgy or MM because I've been following them for longer, but if Bullzeye isn't going to play then that ties our hands somewhat. It's the objectively worst choice as civilian, so for that alone I'd have to assume he's scum.

RadicalFuzz wrote:There's a technician here so it's possible my internet will cut at some point. I'll vote Bullseye to remove the tie.

Bullzeye

J3 in this case, Bullzeye choosing to stop playing does nothing bit hurt town by a large margin. If he is town he removes one townie from the game, which we can't afford at this point. If he's scum he skates by silently. Lynching him fixes both potential problems. I think him being town is unlikely due to the sheer strength of this action. If it was minor and there were counterweights, then there would be conflict present. But as it is, what is the alternative?

I know there has been chatter about these since but yes eww these read as trying really hard to rationalise the appearance of your vote Fuzz.

#7782

I understand if nobody wants to move their votes at this point. I just hope that this Bullzeye lynch is the correct choice.

#7783

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I understand if nobody wants to move their votes at this point. I just hope that this Bullzeye lynch is the correct choice.

on record, do you believe on the balance of probabilities that he's going to flip scum?

#7784

Thanks Rico, just didn't want to attribute opinions to you that you might not believe.

Metalmarsh, is word usage not important? Words are the only venue we have to communicate, and this is a game about communication. When I made the comment about your desire to lynch me, I wasn't referring to your case against me, I was referring to your very minor efforts to get me lynched. "Vote X with me" is, in my experience, rarely a compelling argument.

And for the last time I'm not calling anyone an asshole. I'm not trying to imply that anyone is an asshole. I am saying that Bullzeye is NOT an asshole. In this imaginary world that does not exist where Bullzeye is an asshole Bullzeye intentionally is making life for town difficult while town. That is NOT what is happening here. Even if Bullzeye is town he is NOT an asshole. Don't try to create drama Diiny, this isn't high school.

You're taking my frustrations out of context, Diiny, regarding Mac. I was annoyed because the boundraries for what is and is not acceptable to say on this site are subjective and measured by how offended people are to what you say. I had thought they were at a certain point and then Mac pushed significantly beyond that point and there's this really annoying dissonance.

motel I've been trying really hard to rationalize the appearance of my vote because it wasn't understood and people asked me to.

#7785

Diiny wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I understand if nobody wants to move their votes at this point. I just hope that this Bullzeye lynch is the correct choice.
on record, do you believe on the balance of probabilities that he's going to flip scum?

By probabilities, he has the same odds as everyone else.

Or do you mean something else?

#7786

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Diiny wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I understand if nobody wants to move their votes at this point. I just hope that this Bullzeye lynch is the correct choice.
on record, do you believe on the balance of probabilities that he's going to flip scum?
By probabilities, he has the same odds as everyone else.

Or do you mean something else?

I mean do you think in your opinion that he's more likely than not to flip scum? Based on your read of him

Because obviously statistically it's the same as everyone else.

#7787

Fuzz, the posts I quoted were before and during you casting the vote. Like remember Long Con's eventual vote for Sig early on where he had to backpedal the Bea thing and find a more compelling reason to place his final vote? Reminds me of that. Too-heavy display of reasoning.

#7788

RadicalFuzz wrote:Metalmarsh, is word usage not important? Words are the only venue we have to communicate, and this is a game about communication. When I made the comment about your desire to lynch me, I wasn't referring to your case against me, I was referring to your very minor efforts to get me lynched. "Vote X with me" is, in my experience, rarely a compelling argument.

I would be lying if I were saying it's not.

But my point is, if I offer an explanation for your scumminess, rather than defend this accusation, you've chosen to dissect the explanation and suggest that I am bad because of how the explanation is portrayed. This is an elegant form of a NO U, and I've pointed it out several times, but you've misunderstood some of my posts with these attempts.

With no explanation as to why the accusation is false, I believe the likelihood that it is true is increased.

#7789

Guys, I'm voting Wilgy. He's the stronger questionable possible teamie, based on what I reviewed from JJJ's scans. Furthermore, he made an unexplained Bullzeye vote, part self def (I suppose 3-2 was close enough), part "lovin" Choutas' case (a player he mislynched a Day ago and never addressed his Bullzeye case) and I can't find a word on suspecting Bullzeye in the last two pages of history. I feel better sussing this.

With Bullzeye, the Going-Through-Head thought is that he wouldn't have made a towel throw smokescreen move, whilst barely having any vote on the tally, and in any situation in which he might have at least one teammate around. Maybe this is imaginable if the SK did damage and he's a lone wolf, but less so otherwise, because you can stil coordinate, you can still prepare at least one liner, you can make a half-assed move.

I genuinely hope everyone voting him turns out to be right, because I genuinely hope this lynch doesn't push the civs into near defeat. But I can't shed the doubts about this move in particular.

#7790

Diiny wrote:I mean do you think in your opinion that he's more likely than not to flip scum? Based on your read of him

Because obviously statistically it's the same as everyone else.

Yes, I think he will.

But there was no opposition to his lynch. Every single player alive in this game has either listed him as a highly-touted suspect, or has their vote on him right now (except for him of course). Unless there is only one baddie left, it is a little disconcerting.

#7791

Ricochet wrote:Guys, I'm voting Wilgy. He's the stronger questionable possible teamie, based on what I reviewed from JJJ's scans. Furthermore, he made an unexplained Bullzeye vote, part self def (I suppose 3-2 was close enough), part "lovin" Choutas' case (a player he mislynched a Day ago and never addressed his Bullzeye case) and I can't find a word on suspecting Bullzeye in the last two pages of history. I feel better sussing this.

With Bullzeye, the Going-Through-Head thought is that he wouldn't have made a towel throw smokescreen move, whilst barely having any vote on the tally, and in any situation in which he might have at least one teammate around. Maybe this is imaginable if the SK did damage and he's a lone wolf, but less so otherwise, because you can stil coordinate, you can still prepare at least one liner, you can make a half-assed move.

I genuinely hope everyone voting him turns out to be right, because I genuinely hope this lynch doesn't push the civs into near defeat. But I can't shed the doubts about this move in particular.

I don't think you're being genuine.

:P

#7792

DAY 11

Who put down Strawhenge?

Poll ended at Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:54:26 pm

Bullzeye
5
motel room (13), JaggedJimmyJay (17), RadicalFuzz (18), DrWilgy (19), Russtifinko (22)
22%

Diiny
0
No votes

DrWilgy
2
Diiny (16), Ricochet (23)
9%

JaggedJimmyJay
0
No votes

Metalmarsh89
0
No votes

RadicalFuzz
1
Metalmarsh89 (21)
4%

Ricochet
1
Bullzeye (20)
4%

Russtifinko
0
No votes

A real live wire (host, deadies, non-players)
14
MovingPictures07 (1), HamburgerBoy (2), Sloonei (3), Matt F (4), Choutas (5), a2thezebra (6), MacDougall (7), TheFloyd73 (8), Enrique (9), bea (10), Golden (11), Sorsha (12), Strawhenge (14), Draconus (15)
61%

Total votes : 23

#7793

Day 11: No Compassion

Bullzeye has been lynched. He was No Compassion.

It is now Night 11. You have 23 hours to send in your PMs.

#7794

Yes! Please be Day 12!

#7795

Oh, thank Jesus!

linki: It's not.

Looks like Memories was offed.

#7796

Good shit.

The amount of bullzeye interaction today is going to be very helpful.

#7797

Ok, I caught up. A minute after the deadline, which is fine because I'd have left my vote here anyway.

I have minor misgivings about Bullz's emotional plea at the end there, but the major point remains despite those: he had more than ample opportunities to contribute, and always always always found a reason not to do so. I think especially in a world where JJJ is going balls to the wall on scum spew analyses, being unwilling to provide reads looks bad. (This point, by the way, also makes me feel worse about Wilgy and Rico.)

Will now respond to things I saw on my read through.

Linki: Sweet! Sucks about not skipping the Night, but I'll take the result.

#7798

motel room wrote:Fuzz, the posts I quoted were before and during you casting the vote. Like remember Long Con's eventual vote for Sig early on where he had to backpedal the Bea thing and find a more compelling reason to place his final vote? Reminds me of that. Too-heavy display of reasoning.

I wasn't around then and haven't read it. My vote was more complex than a simple "He said X, X is scum talk, lynch him" so that's why I had exposition about my vote. Would you have preferred me gloss over my reasoning?

MM as I've said all game I have done scummy things. Soft defense of Mac, illogical reasons for not voting Floyd, I'm aware of this. There is no defense to what I did, simply put. What could I possibly say that would make me look better with those moves?

#7799

It is indeed Night 11.

Please note that all Night 11 PMs are due by 5:54PM Eastern time tomorrow, November 3rd.

If somehow Sloonei and I receive all Night PMs within the next couple of hours and you all are OK with it, we will proceed to Day 12 and I will extend that period to 72 hours.

#7800

MovingPictures07 wrote:If somehow Sloonei and I receive all Night PMs within the next couple of hours and you all are OK with it, we will proceed to Day 12 and I will extend that period to 72 hours.

I understand moving the game along, but I'm against this.

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

Full Games	Civilian: Mafia: Independent:
Speed Games	Civilian: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia:
Heists	Civilian: MVP: RED vs BLUE
Burglaries	Independent: The Theme Is Literally a Burglary
Special Games	Civilian: Independent:

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