[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am not calling you teammates in the traditional sense. I do not suspect you are mafia. I admit wholeheartedly to tinfoiling the jjj wilgy relationship, but there's no harm airing my suspicions if they're incorrect, right?

There's no harm in it, sure. If you admit this to yourself though then that should be telling, right?

[Diiny]

Orange: Here's the emotion, folks. Diiny called it WIFOM perhaps validly. Bullzeye got emotional in the end and flipped mafia. Like I said though -- not everyone is this way. Doc's emotion is stemming from frustration about being cased heavily based upon the contributions of other people (Mac, specifically in my case).

My preference for a lynch of MM over Doc is stronger than it was before this post.

My case of wilgy is built upon his actions, as I told him. Spew review is an added bonus.

Why on earth wouldn't a scum caught by virtue of his teammates' actions rather than his own be frustrated, J?

[Diiny]

I am not calling you teammates in the traditional sense. I do not suspect you are mafia. I admit wholeheartedly to tinfoiling the jjj wilgy relationship, but there's no harm airing my suspicions if they're incorrect, right?

There's no harm in it, sure. If you admit this to yourself though then that should be telling, right?

I'm not saying they're incorrect. I'm saying that even if they are, there's no harm done, so why not air them?

[motel room]

Everyone not named Diiny since he already talked about it:

How do you feel MM responded to the pressure I put on him this phase? I need stances immediately.

He was defensive and standoffish. He eventually gave responses to the cases after trying to discredit the entire approach first but they were weird and the "rating" part was gimmicky which always stinks to me.

Also I've been on the other end of your certain-casing when I'm scum and Holy Shit taking you down a peg or two feels more important than a real defence, which is never how I feel when town. Which is what he's clearly felt here.

[Ricochet]

Everyone not named Diiny since he already talked about it:

How do you feel MM responded to the pressure I put on him this phase? I need stances immediately.

Defensive and selective in the angles he rebuted to, until doing some real replying to everything.

As for that part, to be fair, neither your spew review or his response illuminated me in a way of bringing something extra in my own suspicions. As you've said, you've done a more in-depth and more severe interpretation. On the other hand, some of his points, in text and number, reflect mostly how I feel as well about whether or not those specific points weigh in or not, weigh in more or less, against MM.

[DrWilgy]

Looking over it now, what's the post number that'd you'd consider it to actually begin?

@Diiny, what? Are you saying that in a situation, where you don't have the chance to lynch a player that you have a clear baddie lynch on, you would rather kill a player who you are less sure of rather than a not playing person? You would take the chance on someone you don't have full and decisive opinions about and possibly mislynch them? when there is someone else who's life makes the chance for a civ victory harder just by being alive?

ACEO things that I won't go into full detail about, it gives me hunches and beliefs but that info is top secret.

Linki: Emotion is there yes, it's kinda frustrating feeling like you are on the edge of a loss on a game that I've spent so much time in. If I do get mislynched, it is my fault for not having the time to properly respond or play sadly. The thing is, I know I'm not bad, my death would result in 1 SK, 3-4 civs, and 1-2 mafia. Chances are the SK may kill 2 players again, so... by next day if I get lynched it's 1 SK, 1-4 civs, and 0-2 mafia... So... yeah, emotion is there.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why on earth wouldn't a scum caught by virtue of his teammates' actions rather than his own be frustrated, J?

Such a scum probably would be frustrated, yes. This what I mean -- we're left to make this call for ourselves. When I saw Bullzeye's emotional appeal, I stopped for a moment (literally within a post) and considered our course. Then I made the conscious decision to stick to my guns because that's what my gut told me to do.

This is another example of when the gut holds sway. You can't really analyze emotion, you have to simply feel it and decide what it means. Place yourself in Doc's shoes in the most crucial circumstance of the game as town and as mafia (someone who is clearly pressed for time and under a crapload of suspicion) and ask yourself how you feel you'd handle it?

Doc is making some effort to provide reads and to explain himself -- both failures by Bullzeye. He's given us the ability to influence his approach by asking what we'd find more useful from him now (self-defense or scumhunting). I can see a glimmer of town there. Just a glimmer, but it's something.

I don't have that right now with MM.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Everyone not named Diiny since he already talked about it:

How do you feel MM responded to the pressure I put on him this phase? I need stances immediately.

Defensive and selective in the angles he rebuted to, until doing some real replying to everything.

As for that part, to be fair, neither your spew review or his response illuminated me in a way of bringing something extra in my own suspicions. As you've said, you've done a more in-depth and more severe interpretation. On the other hand, some of his points, in text and number, reflect mostly how I feel as well about whether or not those specific points weigh in or not, weigh in more or less, against MM.

I don't necessarily think all of the points I raised were damning either. That's part of what makes his conduct more suspicious to me -- when confronted with potentially weak arguments, he took the opportunity to discredit as much as express.

I don't think most townies answer to cases that way. Think back to your own responses to my Day 3 mega-case against you. You didn't discredit me or belittle the case -- you explained yourself and gave viable alternative explanations to the points I made. That's the difference.

[Ricochet]

Marsh, why did you vote motel, if you said, as far as I understand, that you'd vote Wilgy to not get lynched. Wilgy was leading by 2, motel had the same as you. How can you vote in interest of not reaching top wagon the weaker wagon (motel) rather than the stronger one (Wilgy), at that time? Can it be because you and WIlgy are connected?

[Diiny]

@Diiny, what? Are you saying that in a situation, where you don't have the chance to lynch a player that you have a clear baddie lynch on, you would rather kill a player who you are less sure of rather than a not playing person? You would take the chance on someone you don't have full and decisive opinions about and possibly mislynch them? when there is someone else who's life makes the chance for a civ victory harder just by being alive?

I would kill someone I thought was scum (x) over someone not playing (y) if I believed the x was scummier than y. The point is that the way bullzeye was not playing made him scummy- you didn't touch on that and instead, like fuzz, started justifying his mislynch with some weird logic that seems to think that a player not playing advances the mafia win condition.

[Ricochet]

Everyone not named Diiny since he already talked about it:

How do you feel MM responded to the pressure I put on him this phase? I need stances immediately.

Defensive and selective in the angles he rebuted to, until doing some real replying to everything.

As for that part, to be fair, neither your spew review or his response illuminated me in a way of bringing something extra in my own suspicions. As you've said, you've done a more in-depth and more severe interpretation. On the other hand, some of his points, in text and number, reflect mostly how I feel as well about whether or not those specific points weigh in or not, weigh in more or less, against MM.

I don't necessarily think all of the points I raised were damning either. That's part of what makes his conduct more suspicious to me -- when confronted with potentially weak arguments, he took the opportunity to discredit as much as express.

I don't think most townies answer to cases that way. Think back to your own responses to my Day 3 mega-case against you. You didn't discredit me or belittle the case -- you explained yourself and gave viable alternative explanations to the points I made. That's the difference.

Sure, although I did have my own episode on flipping out on those hounding me and saying I'm freaking done, if my mislynch is so desired - even if it was more towards zebra, I think, than towards you or others. So "town behaves under pressure" is not always the rule.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also, a little appetizer for the people who are concerned with people who have provided some manner of justification for potentially lynching townies (understandably):

We've seen that from Mac, myself, motel room, Fuzz, and Doc. Are all of them bad?

[Diiny]

Securing MM, then, since people got tired of the Wilgy ride. Much better lynch than Momo (memories...)

Motel, did you leave for self preservation reasons? Didn't catch the reason for your switch. Will check now though. IDK why I'm typing this

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So "town behaves under pressure" is not always the rule.

Agreed. That means we have to judge the "misbehavior" to the best of our ability. In my experience, when townies flip a shit they do so quite literally -- they throw their toys out of the pram and storm out of the thread fuming. There are always exceptions to everything of course, but this is my perspective.

[DrWilgy]

@Diiny, what? Are you saying that in a situation, where you don't have the chance to lynch a player that you have a clear baddie lynch on, you would rather kill a player who you are less sure of rather than a not playing person? You would take the chance on someone you don't have full and decisive opinions about and possibly mislynch them? when there is someone else who's life makes the chance for a civ victory harder just by being alive?

I would kill someone I thought was scum (x) over someone not playing (y) if I believed the x was scummier than y. The point is that the way bullzeye was not playing made him scummy- you didn't touch on that and instead, like fuzz, started justifying his mislynch with some weird logic that seems to think that a player not playing advances the mafia win condition.

I'm not sure what I can say, I wasn't here and the majority of intel that I could gain in my glances in the thread are that Bullzeye gave up. Giving up as both mafia or townie on what may have been the day before LYLO needs to be lynched, if a scum hard read isn't going to be lynched.

[Ricochet]

So lemme try to recap my suspects' actions with their votes:

MM says he'd vote Wilgy to save himself, but then votes Motel. Wilgy-MM-Motel 2-1-2, instead of 3-1-1.

Wilgy says he votes motel in self-def, but then asks motel to join him on MM.

Motel complies.

Wilgy-MM-Motel 1-3-2, instead of 2-2-3.

What do others make of this? Which feels "natural", so to speak, which feels fishy?

[Diiny]

Why on earth wouldn't a scum caught by virtue of his teammates' actions rather than his own be frustrated, J?

Such a scum probably would be frustrated, yes. This what I mean -- we're left to make this call for ourselves. When I saw Bullzeye's emotional appeal, I stopped for a moment (literally within a post) and considered our course. Then I made the conscious decision to stick to my guns because that's what my gut told me to do.

This is another example of when the gut holds sway. You can't really analyze emotion, you have to simply feel it and decide what it means. Place yourself in Doc's shoes in the most crucial circumstance of the game as town and as mafia (someone who is clearly pressed for time and under a crapload of suspicion) and ask yourself how you feel you'd handle it?

Doc is making some effort to provide reads and to explain himself -- both failures by Bullzeye. He's given us the ability to influence his approach by asking what we'd find more useful from him now (self-defense or scumhunting). I can see a glimmer of town there. Just a glimmer, but it's something.

I don't have that right now with MM.

Do you mean stick to your guns as in vote MM over Wilgy or something else?

also Pink: huh?

[Ricochet]

Damn, I'm last voter again. Decisions, decisions...

Well, Wilgy's not going anywhere and the motel - MM dynamic has little chance of changing, either, because nobody else except Russ actually feels strong against motel.

Plus, to answer my own previous question, I think MM's vote moment stinks the most.

MM

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy's move to MM feels natural in that it is supported by his most recently expressed suspicion of MM (alongside Russ). motel room's move kind of fits his M.O. for much of the game -- changing his vote late. I don't think that's inherently a good or bad sign because I behave similarly in many EOD scenarios.

MM's vote might feel the least natural simply because he has vanished since its placement.

[Diiny]

I'm not sure what I can say, I wasn't here and the majority of intel that I could gain in my glances in the thread are that Bullzeye gave up. Giving up as both mafia or townie on what may have been the day before LYLO needs to be lynched, if a scum hard read isn't going to be lynched.

You should lynch by scumminess order exclusively. How giving up, or rather, the way giving up affects your read of a player is up to you and your gut, but it doesn't nullify the effects of a mislynch as you were pushing it did.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why on earth wouldn't a scum caught by virtue of his teammates' actions rather than his own be frustrated, J?

Such a scum probably would be frustrated, yes. This what I mean -- we're left to make this call for ourselves. When I saw Bullzeye's emotional appeal, I stopped for a moment (literally within a post) and considered our course. Then I made the conscious decision to stick to my guns because that's what my gut told me to do.

This is another example of when the gut holds sway. You can't really analyze emotion, you have to simply feel it and decide what it means. Place yourself in Doc's shoes in the most crucial circumstance of the game as town and as mafia (someone who is clearly pressed for time and under a crapload of suspicion) and ask yourself how you feel you'd handle it?

Doc is making some effort to provide reads and to explain himself -- both failures by Bullzeye. He's given us the ability to influence his approach by asking what we'd find more useful from him now (self-defense or scumhunting). I can see a glimmer of town there. Just a glimmer, but it's something.

I don't have that right now with MM.

Do you mean stick to your guns as in vote MM over Wilgy or something else?

also Pink: huh?

I stuck to my guns on Day 11 by not moving off of Bullzeye despite my latest on the matter in light of his emotional plea. I wasn't referring to this scenario, where I do favor MM as the lynch.

Pink: we were collectively moving to lynch Bullzeye. It was our course.

[DrWilgy]

Hmm... Do tell, what do you do if you are stuck in a LYLO situation with a player who is playing who seems slightly scummy by thier play, but not enough to lynch them in a non LYLO situation, and a player who isn't playing at all?

[Diiny]

Wilgy's move to MM feels natural in that it is supported by his most recently expressed suspicion of MM (alongside Russ). motel room's move kind of fits his M.O. for much of the game -- changing his vote late. I don't think that's inherently a good or bad sign because I behave similarly in many EOD scenarios.

Very, very recently expressed suspicion of MM that so happens to conform to a majority view. For a dubious reason.

MM's vote might feel the least natural simply because he has vanished since its placement.

His absence is making me happy tbh

linki J: didn't realise you were talking about bullzeye for that part.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hmm... Do tell, what do you do if you are stuck in a LYLO situation with a player who is playing who seems slightly scummy by thier play, but not enough to lynch them in a non LYLO situation, and a player who isn't playing at all?

Assess the thread and make an educated choice. Don't just vote based upon what is happening in LyLo.

[Ricochet]

Hmm... Do tell, what do you do if you are stuck in a LYLO situation with a player who is playing who seems slightly scummy by thier play, but not enough to lynch them in a non LYLO situation, and a player who isn't playing at all?

Kill myself.

linki: lol, speaketh the "I went dark and won a Mafia Championship finale this way"

[DrWilgy]

"Recent"

https://embed.gyazo.com/26d89def7d34e07 ... fabaed.png

[Diiny]

Hmm... Do tell, what do you do if you are stuck in a LYLO situation with a player who is playing who seems slightly scummy by thier play, but not enough to lynch them in a non LYLO situation, and a player who isn't playing at all?

Depends how scummy I think each player is. Depends in what context the non-player stopped playing, how gradually, etc. If that makes him moer scummy that lightly scummy, he gets the vote. If not, yadda yadda. Good example of how lynching a non player doesn't nullify a mislynch, though: mislynching him still loses the game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hmm... Do tell, what do you do if you are stuck in a LYLO situation with a player who is playing who seems slightly scummy by thier play, but not enough to lynch them in a non LYLO situation, and a player who isn't playing at all?

Kill myself.

linki: lol, speaketh the "I went dark and won a Mafia Championship finale this way"

That wasn't LyLo, I was the 2nd mafioso to die and Hero Ratchet finished the game.

[Ricochet]

That wasn't LyLo, I was the 2nd mafioso to die and Hero Ratchet finished the game.

derp

ture

[Ricochet]

"Recent"

https://embed.gyazo.com/26d89def7d34e07 ... fabaed.png

7-0 fuk ye

[DrWilgy]

Hmm... Do tell, what do you do if you are stuck in a LYLO situation with a player who is playing who seems slightly scummy by thier play, but not enough to lynch them in a non LYLO situation, and a player who isn't playing at all?

Depends how scummy I think each player is. Depends in what context the non-player stopped playing, how gradually, etc. If that makes him moer scummy that lightly scummy, he gets the vote. If not, yadda yadda. Good example of how lynching a non player doesn't nullify a mislynch, though: mislynching him still loses the game.

I don't think I stated that the death of a wallflower nullifies a mislynch. What I did state that it does is help prevent mislynches at a much more crucial juncture.

[Diiny]

"Recent"

https://embed.gyazo.com/26d89def7d34e07 ... fabaed.png

bad in gun to head isn't the same as a consistently voiced well reasoned read. I'd feel good if you could show me some of that in your PH. My Ctrl F skills aren't perfect

[Ricochet]

Diiny, is there anyone you'd lynch rather than me, if you, me and that other person reach lylo?

[motel room]

Securing MM, then, since people got tired of the Wilgy ride. Much better lynch than Momo (memories...)

Motel, did you leave for self preservation reasons? Didn't catch the reason for your switch. Will check now though. IDK why I'm typing this

Nah it wasn't for self preservation reasons alone. If Wilgy was up for lynch I would be ok with it but doubting what it'd result with til the EOD especially with his recent posts, I'm feeling pretty ok about seeing an anti-town role come up for metalmarsh, lets see.

[DrWilgy]

"Recent"

https://embed.gyazo.com/26d89def7d34e07 ... fabaed.png

bad in gun to head isn't the same as a consistently voiced well reasoned read. I'd feel good if you could show me some of that in your PH. My Ctrl F skills aren't perfect

Lolwat? My opinion isn't the same as my opinion? I'm pretty sure that's what you just stated.

[Diiny]

Diiny, is there anyone you'd lynch rather than me, if you, me and that other person reach lylo?

Wilgy.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

One of times in a Mafia game when the heart rate is much higher than it should be.

[Ricochet]

Diiny, is there anyone you'd lynch rather than me, if you, me and that other person reach lylo?

Wilgy.

[Diiny]

"Recent"

https://embed.gyazo.com/26d89def7d34e07 ... fabaed.png

bad in gun to head isn't the same as a consistently voiced well reasoned read. I'd feel good if you could show me some of that in your PH. My Ctrl F skills aren't perfect

Lolwat? My opinion isn't the same as my opinion? I'm pretty sure that's what you just stated.

Calling someone bad in gth and pouncing on that later opportunistically whilst being otherwise very reserved in your reads and stances is very different to reaffirming a suspicion that has been organically, consistently and publically developed in my perspective, that is, someone looking for oppertunistic wagon hopping from scum.

linki rico:

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Diiny, is there anyone you'd lynch rather than me, if you, me and that other person reach lylo?

Wilgy.

*places roll of tinfoil on desk*

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Good chance my total post count hits 2,000 and 3,000 in the same game.

[motel room]

"Recent"

https://embed.gyazo.com/26d89def7d34e07 ... fabaed.png

bad in gun to head isn't the same as a consistently voiced well reasoned read. I'd feel good if you could show me some of that in your PH. My Ctrl F skills aren't perfect

Lolwat? My opinion isn't the same as my opinion? I'm pretty sure that's what you just stated.

Calling someone bad in gth and pouncing on that later opportunistically whilst being otherwise very reserved in your reads and stances is very different to reaffirming a suspicion that has been organically, consistently and publically developed in my perspective, that is, someone looking for oppertunistic wagon hopping from scum.

linki rico:

Agrred, this was what I was trying to say earlier in an early-morning mind-fog sort of way.

[Diiny]

and re your wallflower thing, wilgy, you seem to class wallflowers as one, fixed group when in fact they are just players whose reasons for not playing, ways they've stopped playing and previous content should be looked at to produce a scuminess level that should be treated in the same way scuminess levels for other players are. It's not as simple as 'LYNCH LURKERS' (as much as I love sleepystalinist). simplifying it as such is, as I'm sure you'll agree, a worrying sign.

[Golden]

JJ, are you going into fashion? I'd take a designer tinfoil hat.

[Diiny]

tinfoil hats are so last year. I personally opt for the tinfoil lensless thick frame glasses. Help you tinfoil and tunnel vision at the same time, plus reflects scumbeams.

I'm really proud of scumbeams.

[DrWilgy]

I suppose this is just a difference in how we play then. Fuzz and I seemed to both understand the concept of lynch wallflowers, and it's something we do frequently on our home site. I suppose it derives from the hardcore RAH! RAH! play to win environment we come from. Players will attempt to break the game and/or do anything else in their power to statistically increase their chances of winning.

[Ricochet]

Diiny, is there anyone you'd lynch rather than me, if you, me and that other person reach lylo?

Wilgy.

*places roll of tinfoil on desk*

What? I'd definitely lynch Wilgy over Diiny, too. Granted, of course, we're talking lylo with the mafia remaining. If it's lylo with the SK remaining, then nope, I'm committing suicide.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Diiny, is there anyone you'd lynch rather than me, if you, me and that other person reach lylo?

Wilgy.

*places roll of tinfoil on desk*

What? I'd definitely lynch Wilgy over Diiny, too. Granted, of course, we're talking lylo with the mafia remaining. If it's lylo with the SK remaining, then nope, I'm committing suicide.

Take it as a compliment. I town read you and I fear you.

[Diiny]

Don't assert that I don't play to win. WHAT YOU SAYIN' BOUT RYM, FAM?

We infodump and we lynch lurkers too sometimes. But lurking is only just another activity that a person can do, and should be taken into account alongside all the evidence. It does not make someone an instalynch.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*does 800 push-ups*