Dune [ENDGAME]

[Matt]

1 I can maybe believe that you had no idea that nefarious things were happening to SVS. But really svs is a pretty standard N1 target for like all SORTS of things. Civ and baddie alike.

2 That said, you asked her a specific question about her safety and you refuse to answer why you asked it of her. You ask her and everyone else to just believe and trust you. Can't you see why we might be a little suspicious of it?

3 I don't think you are so dumb as to have targeted her then asked her about it when it failed. BUT, I think pressing her about it, if it was a failed target - is trying to make her out herself in ways I'm not sure I'm comfortable wih - and if you wanted to know about failed targets - you prolly should have asked The Host - first. In the thread. So you had something to work with or not.

4 But - between your specific role assignment to sorsha and your specific questions to svs - I can't shake the feeling that you are asking for info neither of them prolly should give without breaking the game. And I can't see why anyone would do that.

5 If you are town aligned and you want to focus on someone - focus on people you have thread evidence you think might be bad. I swear I'll read it at least once and if I don't understand it I'll ask you questions.

Bea, I'm not sure what you're getting at with some of this, let's go through it.

1 I didn't know SVS was a standard night1 target. My second game back after two years, first being THeads, and SVS didn't play that one. But yes you can absolutely believe I knew nothing about targeting.

2 I can see why anyone would be suspicious of it. Hence the warning when I asked the question, "This is going to sound weird but..." I knew going in asking that question that it was weird. I acknowledged this. However, I didn't anticipate that people would believe I had something to do with SVS, and then think I would straight up ask her about it in the thread. Until she told me she had been poisoned, I didn't even know she had been targeted. As for telling you why I asked it, not gonna happen. Epignosis has already expressed bad things happening with roleclaiming stuff, and even if he hadn't, I still wouldn't say why I asked the question.

3 I didn't press anything, bea! I asked her a question. She answered, I was like "cool beans" and that was that. As for asking the host questions about targeting at that time, I had no reason to because I HAD NO IDEA she had been targeted. No idea. All I wanted to know is if she was secure in the knowledge that she wouldn't be killed on Night 1. She answered. I was like "sweet". No pressing.

4 I know I'm not going crazy, right? I mean, it was greatly speculated in the thread that Sorsha had an info role before I asked her to check me out, right? She even said "I'll probably die tonight now", right, because she had given herself away as an info havin' civvie? I'm pretty sure all that happened before I "target painted" Sorsha. C'mon. As for SVS, again, it was just a question. She answered. I thought it was over, then she started suspecting me. Didn't press her. Didn't know she had been targeted.

5 I have presented cases against Turnip Head, FZ, and Zebra. I also suspect Golden. Not sure why you even said that lol

Anywho, wow I'm tired. For someone who helped vote away two mafia (yes one was forced, but I also expressed my feeling he was bad while it was happening), I'm sure getting a lot of looks my way. That ain't cool, peeps.

[a2thezebra]

But then again I'm not sure if Golden is the one who should have asked me that.

I hope that Floyd is lynched, because I think it is of value either way. If sig dies, it's just a whole lot of votes no-one wanted to cast etc. It tells us nothing.

Nothing? It tells us a hell of a lot more than MM's lynch.

linki - Oh I see. Yeah, I still do.

So you think Harkonnen were faking votes on their own teammate? Or do you think there is something else at play, and if so what?

I'm not sure. Could be The Smuggler, could be Harkonnen faking votes, could be one or two of you had a gut read or cop role that found out sig's alignment but couldn't form a case in-thread, there are many possibilities. I think all of them are more likely than there being four forced votes on a single day. Not positive, but it seems unlikely to me.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Please again explain it to me like the dumb drunk 3 year old I am. Are you saying the smuggler forced 4 votes? Are you saying some votes were forced, but the rest of the team bussed a teammate? IF that's the case, who were the teammates that bussed the vote?

How would a cop civ role be able to coordinate the votes needed to take down a scum they knew they had but couldn't prove?

I really don't understand and I want to understand.

I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

[a2thezebra]

Bussing exists, Matt.

[Matt]

Bussing exists, Matt.

Yes, it does. You know what else exists? My case regarding you and MM earlier, as well as you painting sig bright green on your rainbow list.

[a2thezebra]

I've already acknowledged all those things. The possibility of bussing seemed to slip your mind.

[Matt]

I've already acknowledged all those things. The possibility of bussing seemed to slip your mind.

No, it didn't slip my mind. It's 100% untrue, though, so that's why I don't consider it.

As for acknowledging all of those things, that's fantastic, but IMO, you're right behind FZ as far as top suspects go.

Not sure what to make of your Team Fremen comment, and if that's true, we are not against each other in this game, but I would suggest that your behavior towards the two confirmed mafia is a lot more suspect then mine, even with bussing existing.

[bea]

1 I can maybe believe that you had no idea that nefarious things were happening to SVS. But really svs is a pretty standard N1 target for like all SORTS of things. Civ and baddie alike.

2 That said, you asked her a specific question about her safety and you refuse to answer why you asked it of her. You ask her and everyone else to just believe and trust you. Can't you see why we might be a little suspicious of it?

3 I don't think you are so dumb as to have targeted her then asked her about it when it failed. BUT, I think pressing her about it, if it was a failed target - is trying to make her out herself in ways I'm not sure I'm comfortable wih - and if you wanted to know about failed targets - you prolly should have asked The Host - first. In the thread. So you had something to work with or not.

4 But - between your specific role assignment to sorsha and your specific questions to svs - I can't shake the feeling that you are asking for info neither of them prolly should give without breaking the game. And I can't see why anyone would do that.

5 If you are town aligned and you want to focus on someone - focus on people you have thread evidence you think might be bad. I swear I'll read it at least once and if I don't understand it I'll ask you questions.

Bea, I'm not sure what you're getting at with some of this, let's go through it.

1 I didn't know SVS was a standard night1 target. My second game back after two years, first being THeads, and SVS didn't play that one. But yes you can absolutely believe I knew nothing about targeting.

2 I can see why anyone would be suspicious of it. Hence the warning when I asked the question, "This is going to sound weird but..." I knew going in asking that question that it was weird. I acknowledged this. However, I didn't anticipate that people would believe I had something to do with SVS, and then think I would straight up ask her about it in the thread. Until she told me she had been poisoned, I didn't even know she had been targeted. As for telling you why I asked it, not gonna happen. Epignosis has already expressed bad things happening with roleclaiming stuff, and even if he hadn't, I still wouldn't say why I asked the question.

3 I didn't press anything, bea! I asked her a question. She answered, I was like "cool beans" and that was that. As for asking the host questions about targeting at that time, I had no reason to because I HAD NO IDEA she had been targeted. No idea. All I wanted to know is if she was secure in the knowledge that she wouldn't be killed on Night 1. She answered. I was like "sweet". No pressing.

4 I know I'm not going crazy, right? I mean, it was greatly speculated in the thread that Sorsha had an info role before I asked her to check me out, right? She even said "I'll probably die tonight now", right, because she had given herself away as an info havin' civvie? I'm pretty sure all that happened before I "target painted" Sorsha. C'mon. As for SVS, again, it was just a question. She answered. I thought it was over, then she started suspecting me. Didn't press her. Didn't know she had been targeted.

5 I have presented cases against Turnip Head, FZ, and Zebra. I also suspect Golden. Not sure why you even said that lol

Anywho, wow I'm tired. For someone who helped vote away two mafia (yes one was forced, but I also expressed my feeling he was bad while it was happening), I'm sure getting a lot of looks my way. That ain't cool, peeps.

1-4 ok. I can see both sides enough to not think you currently bad.

re: 5 refesh my memory on any of those cases. I'm particularly interested in fz given the last two lynch flips. I'm doing this mafia thing in 1 of 2 states. Over worked and pressed for time, or open and drunk. You can see why I worry about myself...

[Golden]

I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

I just don't think you and I see eye to eye on how you make an argument. But I'm learning... I'm learning a bit about how you play. I respect it. It's good to have different ways of thinking, it's partly why SVS is someone who I'd take btsc with any day of the week. Two different minds are better than two minds the same.

But I think even people who know me well will say, my gut reads are often pretty good without info. I don't remember having a cop role. In respect of sig, whatever poor conclusions I may have drawn, there was one conclusion I have drawn that I was absolutely certain I was right about... things were not as straightforward as they seemed, and therefore I wasn't going to say 'sig is civ'.

And also, like I said, when redirection is at play, I think if a baddie has that role they often redirect to themselves to obtain information. I wouldn't even be surprised if sig had a nk protect, just to make it feel extra safe. For that reason, I had to have it in mind that the reason sig ended up the target could be that the baddies redirected the wrong person on to themselves.

I still wouldn't have voted sig, had I had freedom of choice. It was more a possibility that I wanted people to keep in mind, to stop them assuming 'save sig' was a good idea. It wasn't me preferring a sig lynch by any means.

[Matt]

The cases are in my ISO, bea, but the gist...

FZ - Strongly opposed MM and sig lynches. Like, strongly. So much so that it makes you think there's no way she's bad. But I dunno.

Zebra - The opposite, at least with MM. Ignored case completely, then 20 minutes before the vote ends, pipes in with a "MM prolly ain't bad". Painted sig bright green on rainbow list. Said the "only way" sig is bad is if his team did this to sig on purpose to try and throw us off, then called that "silly".

Turnip - I don't even remember, that seems like ages ago lol.

It's all in the ISO, though, if ya get drunk enough.

Also, this isn't just to bea, but to everyone. Can we all agree that long before I "target painted" Sorsha, it was clearly known (or at least pretty much figured) that she had some kind of info role? I know that happened, I'm not imagining it. Thanks.

[bea]

I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

I just don't think you and I see eye to eye on how you make an argument. But I'm learning... I'm learning a bit about how you play. I respect it. It's good to have different ways of thinking, it's partly why SVS is someone who I'd take btsc with any day of the week. Two different minds are better than two minds the same.

But I think even people who know me well will say, my gut reads are often pretty good without info. I don't remember having a cop role. In respect of sig, whatever poor conclusions I may have drawn, there was one conclusion I have drawn that I was absolutely certain I was right about... things were not as straightforward as they seemed, and therefore I wasn't going to say 'sig is civ'.

And also, like I said, when redirection is at play, I think if a baddie has that role they often redirect to themselves to obtain information. I wouldn't even be surprised if sig had a nk protect, just to make it feel extra safe. For that reason, I had to have it in mind that the reason sig ended up the target could be that the baddies redirected the wrong person on to themselves.

I still wouldn't have voted sig, had I had freedom of Ichoice. It was more a possibility that I wanted people to keep in mind, to stop them assuming 'save sig' was a good idea. It wasn't me preferring a sig lynch by any means.

*chants* I do believe in lawyers, I do believe in lawyers *feels weird saying that. *
In hindsite I wished I'd listened more closely to that. My own brain couldn't see force vote used for the town. I'm glad it worked out for us in the end though.

[Golden]

@Matt - I don't blame you for feeling that way about Sorsha. I don't think it is clear what Sorsha's role is, although I do agree it looked as though she had info on MM.

But my personal opinion on civvie etiquette. Don't take this the wrong way. I never call out someone as an outright info role, like cop or lie detector. Sometimes you are wrong (eg zebra thinking I'm cop). Sometimes (like Sorsha) we don't actually know what might have occurred. Every time, though, you put a target on that persons back, and that's not a fair thing to do.

If you are bad and want to night kill that person then lead the town into following all their opinions, then its completely ok

[bea]

The cases are in my ISO, bea, but the gist...

FZ - Strongly opposed MM and sig lynches. Like, strongly. So much so that it makes you think there's no way she's bad. But I dunno.

Zebra - The opposite, at least with MM. Ignored case completely, then 20 minutes before the vote ends, pipes in with a "MM prolly ain't bad". Painted sig bright green on rainbow list. Said the "only way" sig is bad is if his team did this to sig on purpose to try and throw us off, then called that "silly".

Turnip - I don't even remember, that seems like ages ago lol.

It's all in the ISO, though, if ya get drunk enough.

Also, this isn't just to bea, but to everyone. Can we all agree that long before I "target painted" Sorsha, it was clearly known (or at least pretty much figured) that she had some kind of info role? I know that happened, I'm not imagining it. Thanks.

Thanks for the sum ups matt. Really I appriciate it.

And as far as Sorsha goes, I think many people assumed she may have an info role, but no one was willing to say what sort of info role she had. You jumped right in there with the Lie Detect role and asked her to check your statements. (which - btw - old skool wise - would be not checkable as old skool wise, peeps are *very* particular in the ways "I"m a civ" etc can be checked. IF Epi has a lie detecter, I don't know. But if he did, I know that he'd be aware of the dangers of the role well enough to know that some statements shouldn't be checked.) So yea, it felt like you were trying to either a) out Sorsha's potential role or b) distract her if she was a lie check by making tempting statements for a lie checker that would have given null results.

You see what I'm saying sweets? :cheers:

[Golden]

FZ has gone so far down the road of defending baddies that I could actually see it as an intentional distance at this point.

I'm not convinced, but where after the first lynch I felt there was no way FZ was bad, after this one I'm beginning to feel like it at least has to be on the table.

[Matt]

Golden/Bea - I understand what you mean by target painting, I just don't think I did it. In fact, I would say Sorsha target painted herself, not only by her "case" on MM, but also the direct hinting of her role power in the thread (I think Sorsha knows what I'm talking about, and I won't show what I mean unless she disagrees). I think it's extremely unfair to say I target painted anyone.

[a2thezebra]

I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

Look at this way; if I'm wrong, consider yourself in the league of dunya in my opinion as far as accurate reads go.

[Golden]

I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

Look at this way; if I'm wrong, consider yourself in the league of dunya in my opinion as far as accurate reads go.

Is that good or bad?

[a2thezebra]

I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

Look at this way; if I'm wrong, consider yourself in the league of dunya in my opinion as far as accurate reads go.

Is that good or bad?

VERY good. Sorry I forgot you're not from the RYM crowd.

[Matt]

Golden and Zebra are besties again. Lol.

On that note, I'm out. Peace

[bea]

I agree Golden. The last game on her site we played together, we were both civs being manipulated by other baddies. I still want to give her the chance to respond, but at this point, I don't see how today can't be about talking about her. Or blooper tbh.

linki - matt- I don't see how you don't think you did it? If she implied something - she did that, you assigning a role to her hint makes the target bigger. I don't see why you don't think you did that? And matt, I say this as someone who's crossed the line more times than she can count, if she has that role and if you said something that could have outed that role, you did not do her more subtle hint service. Even if you correctly assume the baddies saw the same things you saw.

I still don't think you are necessarily bad, but you have to see what I'm saying right?

In any event, at the moment, I'm more concerned about finding the things we agree on than finding the things I think you might have played wrong. Focusing on the latter feels like civs running in circles tbh. We can philosophically agree to disagree and let shorsha and svs chime in about how they feel they have been treated. Sound good?

[bea]

also - Kate would have at least given me a hug for the "I do believe in lawyers" post.

[Matt]

I agree Golden. The last game on her site we played together, we were both civs being manipulated by other baddies. I still want to give her the chance to respond, but at this point, I don't see how today can't be about talking about her. Or blooper tbh.

linki - matt- I don't see how you don't think you did it? If she implied something - she did that, you assigning a role to her hint makes the target bigger. I don't see why you don't think you did that? And matt, I say this as someone who's crossed the line more times than she can count, if she has that role and if you said something that could have outed that role, you did not do her more subtle hint service. Even if you correctly assume the baddies saw the same things you saw.

I still don't think you are necessarily bad, but you have to see what I'm saying right?

In any event, at the moment, I'm more concerned about finding the things we agree on than finding the things I think you might have played wrong. Focusing on the latter feels like civs running in circles tbh. We can philosophically agree to disagree and let shorsha and svs chime in about how they feel they have been treated. Sound good?

One last post.

Yes, I've stated, and again I will state, I see what you're saying. I think Sorsha would agree that most of the players (assuming they are paying attention, you got me there though who knows?) figured she had an info role, and she used it to get a bad guy. Before I "target painted" her by "assigning her a role". Which I did not btw, I assigned her a role power. For all I know, she could be a bad guy that isn't Harkonnen.

Alright tired now. Peace

[MacDougall]

Can I ask that we do Jimmy's G2H drill tomorrow? If ever there was a time for it it would be now. Harks have aeak numbers so their lynch influence will be dire and we can get an on the paper understanding of where everyone is at and pick a strong candidate from our agreeances.

[bea]

ok matt. you are right. you did nothing wrong and I'm a silly fool for trying to point out how I think other people could misconsture your potential civness. You absolutely did nothing wrong and I was completely wasting time and barking up the wrong tree to try to say at all how I think you are civ and that you also MAY have maybe overstepped. That was my bad. I should know by now to let everyone just play their own game. Forgive me please.

Carry on same as it ever was.

linki- mac - I would be ok with doing that - but I will be at work till 5 pm at least (if my CSR doesn't call out *again* tomorrow) which is 7 pm EST - do the math back from there to aussie land.

Basicly, if I'm around I'm down - just don't know if I'll be around.

[Golden]

I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

Look at this way; if I'm wrong, consider yourself in the league of dunya in my opinion as far as accurate reads go.

Is that good or bad?

VERY good. Sorry I forgot you're not from the RYM crowd.

I have played a few there, but only with dunya once.

I'll take that as a compliment.

[Golden]

also - Kate would have at least given me a hug for the "I do believe in lawyers" post.

Sorry, my dinner arrived at the door just as I was catching up with it!

[FZ.]

Just lynch me and take me out of my misery. NK me would also work.

I'm playing an awful awful game, and I can't fault anyone for thinking I'm bad. Heck, I'm starting to doubt my alignment myself :P

I don't even care about defending myself.

[Golden]

I don't think you are my top suspect, you've just gone from 'town read' to more middle of the road.

[FZ.]

I don't think you are my top suspect, you've just gone from 'town read' to more middle of the road.

You know how when you make too many bad decisions, you don't feel like playing? That's where I'm at now. I'll get over it. I doubt I'll be NK, so I'll probably have to defend myself at some point.

This lynch was different. I did feel good about Sig, whereas with MM, I just couldn't decide between him and Floyd. Naturally, I'm feeling a lot better about Floyd now. Taking the risk and trying to save Sig would have worked much better for the baddies than saving MM because MM was "caught" while Sig had everything going for him. So I think baddies took the risk and joined the Floyd bandwagon. I'm not going to be the one pointing fingers because I feel I should just shut up now. Funny, how everyone is looking at me now, when other than you, no one really considered that Sig could be bad. At least as someone who thought he was good, I was trying to take responsibility, even if it was the wrong decision.

[Matt]

Woke up and saw this, wanted to quickly respond.

ok matt. you are right. you did nothing wrong and I'm a silly fool for trying to point out how I think other people could misconsture your potential civness. You absolutely did nothing wrong and I was completely wasting time and barking up the wrong tree to try to say at all how I think you are civ and that you also MAY have maybe overstepped. That was my bad. I should know by now to let everyone just play their own game. Forgive me please.

I don't know why you're pulling this, I've said several times I see your and Golden's point. I don't think you're a silly fool, where did that come from? Feels like earlier when SVS implied I thought she was an idiot. For real?

But, in Sorsha's case, I do not believe I personally "target painted" her. By the time I said anything, anyone who is paying attention this game figured she had an info role. In fact, anyone who says "after MM was lynched, I had no gosh darn clue that Sorsha may have an info role", whoever says that is a liar unless their names are Floyd, Luke, or Banana. Plain and simple. It is unwarranted to say I target painted her. Whether you are trying to point out my civvieness or not.

Anywho, I get what you and Golden are saying. I have stupidly "target painted" before, I believe, in the TH game regarding Elohcin's role. After awhile I realized what I was doing and by that point, I already did it like 7 times so eff it. But in this game, regarding Sorsha? Unwarranted. She target painted herself.

[Sorsha]

Fwiw fz this lynch actually made me feel a lot better about you. It didn't feel like you were looking for any way out of a particular vote like I felt you were doing the last lynch. You seemed to be weighing the suspects more and considering more, imo.

[Golden]

I don't think you are my top suspect, you've just gone from 'town read' to more middle of the road.

You know how when you make too many bad decisions, you don't feel like playing? That's where I'm at now. I'll get over it. I doubt I'll be NK, so I'll probably have to defend myself at some point.

I understand completely, FZ!

[S~V~S]

Matt, I am sorry, but your tone was pretty condescending IMO, so I reacted to it that way. I dislike being condescended to in the extreme, so sorry if i got snarky. Just becasue I dislike something is no reason for me to behave poorly.

"There are alot of flaws with your case. Do you see what they are?" is like you're talking to a little kid, though.

And no, I like my "case" (and it isn't a case, I seldom make cases, I make observations, which is not the same) just fine. It is based on what I know of this game; based on day & night results, and knowledge of my own role. I am not asking other people to follow it, but I do plan to do so.

And my points about FZ are varied, not just her votes. I think her whole demeanor feels off. Civ FZ is bold and direct; this FZ feels somewhat furtive. And trying to save a doomed teammate who is obviously being framed would be a bold move, but had I not been a nub re my vote, it might have paid off for them had FZ been able to herd the rest of you together in her quest to save sig.

[MacDougall]

I think elo has to go tomorrow team.

[FZ.]

Matt, I am sorry, but your tone was pretty condescending IMO, so I reacted to it that way. I dislike being condescended to in the extreme, so sorry if i got snarky. Just becasue I dislike something is no reason for me to behave poorly.

"There are alot of flaws with your case. Do you see what they are?" is like you're talking to a little kid, though.

And no, I like my "case" (and it isn't a case, I seldom make cases, I make observations, which is not the same) just fine. It is based on what I know of this game; based on day & night results, and knowledge of my own role. I am not asking other people to follow it, but I do plan to do so.

And my points about FZ are varied, not just her votes. I think her whole demeanor feels off. Civ FZ is bold and direct; this FZ feels somewhat furtive. And trying to save a doomed teammate who is obviously being framed would be a bold move, but had I not been a nub re my vote, it might have paid off for them had FZ been able to herd the rest of you together in her quest to save sig.

It's good that you know how civ FZ acts. Next time I have questions on how to do things, I'll just ask you, since you seem to know better than I do.

[Matt]

Matt, I am sorry, but your tone was pretty condescending IMO, so I reacted to it that way. I dislike being condescended to in the extreme, so sorry if i got snarky. Just becasue I dislike something is no reason for me to behave poorly.

"There are alot of flaws with your case. Do you see what they are?" is like you're talking to a little kid, though.

And no, I like my "case" (and it isn't a case, I seldom make cases, I make observations, which is not the same) just fine. It is based on what I know of this game; based on day & night results, and knowledge of my own role. I am not asking other people to follow it, but I do plan to do so.

Well, I didn't think I was talking to a little kid. I pointed out to you what I felt was wrong with your "case", and then I asked if you saw it too. Didn't know that meant I was implying you were a little kid. Really I have no idea where that came from. Just in this very thread, bea and Golden are saying "Don't you see what we're saying?" to me regarding target painting, that does not mean I believe they are calling me a little kid.

Anyway, you continue to refuse to answer questions about your "case" or "observations"...

If I'm correct, you believe I'm Team Harkonnen because you think I had knowledge of MM poisoning you. You also believe that poisoning would take a few days to kill, not just on one night. And yet, you originally were pinged by my question of you "Were you secure in the knowledge that you wouldn't be killed N1?". How does my question (asking you about surviving on N1) correlate with a poison role that takes a few days to kill you? How? Please, answer this, and without resorting to acting like I'm calling you a little kid. How does this make sense in your case or observations?

You also are one of the folks accusing me of target painting Sorsha. Again, if your name is not Floyd, Luke, or Banana, then if you've been keeping up with the thread, you absolutely knew Sorsha had an info role, and she was using it to kill the bad guys. She brought that on herself. Did I add onto it? Perhaps, but only when I felt I was backed into a corner by Golden and Mac, who were accusing me of whoknowswhat because I dared to take an educated guess that there may be other kills then on Team Harkonnen. It's not as if I said "Oh hey Sorsha, nice lie detector power, that must be useful." In defending myself against Golden/Mac's (IMO) baseless accusations, I rashly wrote up a quick post asking Sorsha to check me. Was it dumb? Yes. M'bad. Did I "target paint" her? No way she did that to herself.

So, these are two things from your "case" or "observations" about me that I find flawed. Do you agree or not, and please, why?

[Matt]

Looking at the polls, I see both FZ and Turnip Head voted for Floyd on the days that MM and sig are lynched (both days these votes helped push Floyd into a tie with the Harkonnen folk).

Do we think one of these players is on Harkonnen or is it just unfortunate voting on their part? I will ISO both, but as we all know, who knows what kind of crazy shit I'll come up with, what does everyone else think?

[MacDougall]

Matt you were not baselessly accused. I am sure you are not civ with the same info as me. I don't think you are straight up scum either. You seem to be genuinely attempting to hunt but with an unusual lean to your musings you have my curiosity piqued.

I appreciate that you have changed your play style to be more self aware and have noticed the effort by the way. I apologise for the day 1 shenanigans.

[Elohcin]

I think elo has to go tomorrow team.

Why?

[MacDougall]

I think sig's ISO is damning for Elo.

He had soft suspicions of her with no case. Always read her with another player who he said was more suspicous and never voted her.

1

[MacDougall]

Does anyone not have a scum read on Elo?

It seems like everyone thinks she is a badder, Metalmarsh kept serious distance between them and she somehow got zero votes.

If that ain't a scummer I dunno what is.

2

[MacDougall]

@Mac - Eloh ended up with no votes because she wasn't on the poll. Does that change your view?

Niju tried to vote for her though right?

Yes, but if they were teammates together do you think ninja would have had more awareness that she wasn't on the poll and not made that post, or do you think the 'trying to vote for her' would have been part of the ruse?

It certainly changes my opinion. The scenario is less likely. Don't overlook the fact that they could just as easily have not communicated. Niju might have made that post without conferring with Elo or the team. I feel like the assumption that the scum are always communicating at every waking moment is quite false.

But yes, less likely. I still like scum being in that duo there.

What is your read on that play?

This would be a cool baddie move, but it isn't what happened b/c I am not bad and have no BTSC with Niju. I am not sure of her alliance however.

Well of course you would say that. If you aren't bad then why did you choose to vote for Niju and not actually play a part in the final vote of a tied lynch?

3. Yes you explained this but I don't believe you. Sorry.

[MacDougall]

I'm just looking through Metalmarsh's ISO. It's really quite unusual how little he fought against his lynch.

Here are some of the more interesting posts:

Floyd's description of my posts thus far is pretty accurate, and I think he's behaved differently than in his first game on this site, and I mean that in a good way. I know I've voted him, but I can't really endorse lynching him.

Elohcin on the other hand, looks to be in the same boat as me, just not really caught up. I don't think there are anything in her posts to call her good or bad.

I feel like here we have him actually telling us that Floyd is not scum. I don't think Floyd has behaved differently at all so for him to say that he has is weird. I would be inclined to think that his Floyd read is in the case of Floyd being lynched (which to him would be a likely thing to have happen) and him flipping town, Marsh would be able to pull an I told you so. If Floyd was scum, and both were up for lynch with no decent town wagon I would bet cold hard cash that the scum would bus Floyd over Marsh.

Perhaps a little bit intentionally unclear in his read on Elo? If Elohcin was town it would probably be prudent for him to be more decisive on his read on her, yet he chooses to not participate in that line of thought at all. A slight negative read on Elo from this.

Marmot barely posted in this thread for days, and then suddenly appeared when people said it was suspicious. I don't think lynching him would be unfair - that's very odd behaviour for a marmot.

Do you have a problem with my impeccable timing?

Engaging in some bantz with Golden, which was a recurring theme.

Do you guys really think I'm bad? like really?

I don't think that this is quite what either of us said

But I do really think you could be bad. I just haven't figured you out yet.

Could be bad?

Well, anyone could be bad, whether you think it or not . :P

I'm busy knitting a stillsuit.

I'm calling bullsuit.

Also, votes are not changeable in this poll.

Or any other poll.

Oh hi Golden, long see, no time.

I see Golden put the last vote on Metalmarsh which at the time put him ahead on the vote count 5 to 3 and votes from Turnip Head and FZ tied it up. At face value this would appear to make Golden a hero of the lynch but considering the lynch almost got overtaken by the Floyd lynch at the last and these bantz posts rub me the wrong way, I'm going to have a bit more of a look at Golden's Metalmarsh posts after this.

Voted Turnip Head because I owe him one.

It would be so easy to say that Turnip Head tried to get Metalmarsh unlynched at the end of the day (because he did) and that this vote from Marsh on day 1 is quite clear scum distancing. A little too easy though. It'd be hard to argue that Turnip be put on trial hard for this but something about it feels wrong.

Conclusion:

Due to the fact that the lynch ended up tied I would say that it's unlikely there would be more than at most 1 scum on his bus, likely actually 0 and if there was it'd be someone who got their vote on him early and couldn't get it off, but even then that would just be something to consider later in the game because we can really only applaud them at face value. Out of all of them I'd say it'd be most likely to be S-V-S and I say that at risk of being accused of tunneling. I can't knock the fact that she voted on the lynch wagon of a scum and if she is civ I applaud her for it, just that if there were a bus on here it would be her and likely her alone.

It's probably prudent to point out that Marsh and I had quite a bit of interaction on day 1 and I think it reflects pretty well on me.

As for Turnip and FZ's votes. It's hard to look past them for certain. At 5-3 scum players embarking on a rescue mission is damn near suicide though, especially since they failed. I can't see Turnip or FZ as scum doing that without being sure they'd have the numbers to get it over the line and since there was no later votes on Marsh than there was on Floyd I find it hard to rationalise them as scum trying to save a scum buddy.

I feel like Metalmarsh has actually not communicated with most or all of the scum. I think we can probably make some headway looking for situations where Marsh appeared to actually avoid talking about or to players when he had cause to. This would bring bea and Elohcin heavily into calculations.

4.

[MacDougall]

I'm getting tired of the Golden/zebra fight. I'm pretty sure I'm looking at a civ Golden, but I don't agree with him. I'm also a lot more inclined to call zebra a civ than a baddie.


I want to discuss Eloh. What do people think of her bandwagon on the "overreaction" of zebra?
I think my vote might go there, but I'd like to hear people's thoughts.

The post that pinged you also pinged me.

5.

[MacDougall]

6. You have twice just asked why when I have never wavered in my well documented read on you. I believe you are hoping I will make a statement you can refute so you can discredit the read because nothing so far you have been able to.

[MacDougall]

FZ, Zebra, SVS and I am sure others have shown suspicions of you at different stages yet you remain with not even close to a lynch wagon forming.

I am sure they can speak for their own suspicions.

In fairness most of my read revolves around things the scum did relative to you, but it is quite damning. I believe FZ and Zebra have made points about your actual play should you care to include any defense you have made ot may wish to make in your defense here.

[Elohcin]

I agree with you that the reasons you find me suspicious are in fact the actions of others. I am not sure what I have done, ME!!!, to make you think I am mafia. Also, why would I be the vote forcer as golden said AND be a part of the baddie team that redirected the vote forcer onto one of their own. That is silly.

[Epignosis]

Night 3

Your escape from the sandworm was not as fortuitous as you had hoped.

You lost your bearings and now you are wandering the wilderness of Arrakis at night.

Some of you have the image of that mighty creature burrowed in your mind.

But tonight is peaceful, and you fear no beasts as you look into the heavens and try to remember your planets of origin, though some of you need only breathe in the spice-laden air to know you are indeed home.

No one has been killed.

It is now Day 4. You have 48 hours to lynch someone.

[Epignosis]

Get Eloh. Steal the cupcakes.

-Princess Irulan, from The Collected Sayings

[Golden]

Does any one have any reason to think they were the kill target last night?

[Golden]

I would strongly advise against an Eloh lynch at this stage. I don't think Mac is correct. It was Eloh's conduct yesterday which led me to realise sig could be bad. There is a lot of stuff Eloh said yesterday that seems both unnecessary and actively hurtful to her own team if she was sig's teammate.