[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do realize that part. I recall Epignosis suggesting that HBoy was mafia, and you agreeing it is possible.

But if you want the PSK to nightkill mafia instead of civilians, I think he'd be more likely to do so if he thought there were more mafia. Suggesting that HBoy was mafia would give him the idea (especially if he thinks you're a civilian) that mafia's numbers are actually dwindling, and that he still needs to kill civilians.

At that point in the game, the SK having only killed one guy that I thought seemed at all likely to be mafia was exactly the frustration I was expressing. That's not balanced, even then.

What's your point? Are you saying I made a boo boo or that I did something suspicious?

[Marmot]

I do realize that part. I recall Epignosis suggesting that HBoy was mafia, and you agreeing it is possible.

But if you want the PSK to nightkill mafia instead of civilians, I think he'd be more likely to do so if he thought there were more mafia. Suggesting that HBoy was mafia would give him the idea (especially if he thinks you're a civilian) that mafia's numbers are actually dwindling, and that he still needs to kill civilians.

At that point in the game, the SK having only killed one guy that I thought seemed at all likely to be mafia was exactly the frustration I was expressing. That's not balanced, even then.

What's your point? Are you saying I made a boo boo or that I did something suspicious?

I think it's suspicious. I think you thought to stick to your read of HamburgerBoy rather than try to bait the Psycho Killer into a sense of urgency. I think this because I think there's chance you are the PSK, and you didn't think to bait yourself.

[Ricochet]

Townies, stop fighting. Focus on Diiny, Wilgy, Russ.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Another note from Day 5: Marsh had his vote on espers, who finished with 8 visible votes.

Devin finished with 6 visible votes.

Devin died. Chew on that as it pertains to your Marsh read.

Chewing away. What do you take away from this event?

That I can't find a role that suits what you seemingly must be. I literally just went through all of them, crossed off the confirmed dead, crossed off the irrelevant, and crossed off the denied, and I'm left with a blank notepad.

Except the *secrets* one, but who knows what that is.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Townies, stop fighting. Focus on Diiny, Wilgy, Russ.

Maybe I'll fight you too. If I can't figure out WTF you're trying to tell me, then I don't have to reject the possibility that you're full of crap.

[Marmot]

I won't forgive you Jay.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do realize that part. I recall Epignosis suggesting that HBoy was mafia, and you agreeing it is possible.

But if you want the PSK to nightkill mafia instead of civilians, I think he'd be more likely to do so if he thought there were more mafia. Suggesting that HBoy was mafia would give him the idea (especially if he thinks you're a civilian) that mafia's numbers are actually dwindling, and that he still needs to kill civilians.

At that point in the game, the SK having only killed one guy that I thought seemed at all likely to be mafia was exactly the frustration I was expressing. That's not balanced, even then.

What's your point? Are you saying I made a boo boo or that I did something suspicious?

I think it's suspicious. I think you thought to stick to your read of HamburgerBoy rather than try to bait the Psycho Killer into a sense of urgency. I think this because I think there's chance you are the PSK, and you didn't think to bait yourself.

I was trying to level with the SK, not "bait" him. I wanted his help for a night because I thought it would benefit town and him. I hoped he'd see it that way.

[Ricochet]

Townies, stop fighting. Focus on Diiny, Wilgy, Russ.

Maybe I'll fight you too. If I can't figure out WTF you're trying to tell me, then I don't have to reject the possibility that you're full of crap.

Did you exhaust all the role possibilities?

If you turn on me, we might as well just pack it up and let the SK and mafia fight for the crown.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Townies, stop fighting. Focus on Diiny, Wilgy, Russ.

Maybe I'll fight you too. If I can't figure out WTF you're trying to tell me, then I don't have to reject the possibility that you're full of crap.

Did you exhaust all the role possibilities?

If you turn on me, we might as well just pack it up and let the SK and mafia fight for the crown.

Calm down and consider what I'm doing. Do not respond to this.

[Marmot]

Night 12 rainbow list - ordered by lynch priority.

Ricochet
Russtifinko
JaggedJimmyJay
DrWilgy
Diiny

[Ricochet]

Night 12 rainbow list - ordered by lynch priority.

Ricochet
Russtifinko
JaggedJimmyJay
DrWilgy
Diiny

Talk to me about Russ. What points at him not being a baddie? I really need the input on this.

[Marmot]

Night 12 rainbow list - ordered by lynch priority.

Ricochet
Russtifinko
JaggedJimmyJay
DrWilgy
Diiny

Talk to me about Russ. What points at him not being a baddie? I really need the input on this.

Again his consistency. I don't see him as mafia because his participation has gone up as the mafia continued to get NK'd and while Bullzeye's participation has gone down.

I could give a better look at his content, but I was distracted by other things yesterday.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This is what my spew review had to say about Russ before the Bullzeye lynch. I'll check those interactions.

I've always said that Russ passes the evidence test without quite passing the eye test. His tone and language early in the game were consistent pings.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ricochet

Russtifinko

Diiny
DrWilgy
Metalmarsh89

[Ricochet]

Night 12 rainbow list - ordered by lynch priority.

Ricochet
Russtifinko
JaggedJimmyJay
DrWilgy
Diiny

Talk to me about Russ. What points at him not being a baddie? I really need the input on this.

Again his consistency. I don't see him as mafia because his participation has gone up as the mafia continued to get NK'd and while Bullzeye's participation has gone down.

I could give a better look at his content, but I was distracted by other things yesterday.

"The mafia continued to get NK'd"?

I said baddie, not just mafia. Do you have any SK read on him, just like you asked me?

[Ricochet]

mmm mmm m rmrm rmm mrmm rmmrm!

[Marmot]

This is what my spew review had to say about Russ before the Bullzeye lynch. I'll check those interactions.

I've always said that Russ passes the evidence test without quite passing the eye test. His tone and language early in the game were consistent pings.

If I understand this correctly, you're saying that a quick look at Russtifinko looks bad, but further inspections shows a player who's been involved more than it appears?

Which test do you value more?


Linki: Oops I mean lynched. I've had a lot of typos this game. No I don't, but I believe he did post on Night 5, and I think that is the most solid evidence we have on any player being the SK. Not the only one necessarily, but the best one.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This is what my spew review had to say about Russ before the Bullzeye lynch. I'll check those interactions.

I've always said that Russ passes the evidence test without quite passing the eye test. His tone and language early in the game were consistent pings.

If I understand this correctly, you're saying that a quick look at Russtifinko looks bad, but further inspections shows a player who's been involved more than it appears?

Which test do you value more?

To this point, I've favored the evidence. We're approaching end-game though, so I can't ignore the pings that do exist. Everything should be considered.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Doing this Russ/Bullzeye review and I'm already seeing potential for a universe in which Russ and Doc are mafia and this game is over.

I'll press on though.

[DrWilgy]

I thought that my thinking it was a bad idea was implied on the basis of it being a save.

If I agreed with the Sig lynch, then I wouldn't had even declared it as a save, rather I would've just voted.

Seeing that I had my vote on Choutas for a majority of that day and me vocalizing my thoughts on him, until near EOD, my vote makes sense in the fact that it would've been a waste otherwise. At least with my vote on Sig, I was gambling on my belief that Fuzz wasn't a baddie.

You never verbalized that.

You have your vote on Choutas for two hours and 42 minutes, during the late stages of the Day. I don't have an earlier vote from you on Choutas in my spreadsheets.

An hour before voting Sig, you said this:

Anyone willing to lynch JJJ today? I do not want Fuzz to be lynched at this point, and will save him if needed.

So you DID have an intent to rally people against someone you actually suspected. But then, you went with the save on a player you hardly mentioned, let alone suspected. Sorry, but you willfully contributed to a civ getting lynched, without suspecting said civ, only wanting to save another civ. It is what it is. It would look bad on anyone not saying the magic words "I suspect this player slightly more and also want to save the player he's pitted against", so I'm reading it as looking bad for you. That's my whole point.

You talked and sussed Choutas all day.
You suggested JJJ as counterwagon to Fuzz.
You voted the actual counterwagon instead of Fuzz.

Tell me where the consistency in all of this lies.

I wanted to save fuzz is the constant.

Did my suspicion of JJJ ever fade between the time of Mac's defense, until stating last day phase that I no longer think he's the SK?

Did that need to be verbalized? During vote analysis you have stated that several votes seem out of orbit, or otherwise useless. I thought that it was implied by making a saving vote, I didn't want to make a wasteful one. Why? Because "saving" votes are impactful by nature.

[Diiny]

Fireworks were nice.

People redding me, engage me. Made an attempt earlier but was ignored by everyone save Rico.

[Ricochet]

I thought that my thinking it was a bad idea was implied on the basis of it being a save.

If I agreed with the Sig lynch, then I wouldn't had even declared it as a save, rather I would've just voted.

Seeing that I had my vote on Choutas for a majority of that day and me vocalizing my thoughts on him, until near EOD, my vote makes sense in the fact that it would've been a waste otherwise. At least with my vote on Sig, I was gambling on my belief that Fuzz wasn't a baddie.

You never verbalized that.

You have your vote on Choutas for two hours and 42 minutes, during the late stages of the Day. I don't have an earlier vote from you on Choutas in my spreadsheets.

An hour before voting Sig, you said this:

Anyone willing to lynch JJJ today? I do not want Fuzz to be lynched at this point, and will save him if needed.

So you DID have an intent to rally people against someone you actually suspected. But then, you went with the save on a player you hardly mentioned, let alone suspected. Sorry, but you willfully contributed to a civ getting lynched, without suspecting said civ, only wanting to save another civ. It is what it is. It would look bad on anyone not saying the magic words "I suspect this player slightly more and also want to save the player he's pitted against", so I'm reading it as looking bad for you. That's my whole point.

You talked and sussed Choutas all day.
You suggested JJJ as counterwagon to Fuzz.
You voted the actual counterwagon instead of Fuzz.

Tell me where the consistency in all of this lies.

I wanted to save fuzz is the constant.

Did my suspicion of JJJ ever fade between the time of Mac's defense, until stating last day phase that I no longer think he's the SK?

Did that need to be verbalized? During vote analysis you have stated that several votes seem out of orbit, or otherwise useless. I thought that it was implied by making a saving vote, I didn't want to make a wasteful one. Why? Because "saving" votes are impactful by nature.

I demand a future game in which everyone simply votes for veto-ing a top wagon and for being impactful and ditch the part where they also have to suspect the player they vote instead, to justify town mentality, and analyse where a game like that will end up.

[DrWilgy]

I'm detecting some sass

[Ricochet]

Well, judging from the Day Host post, I think we're past the 23-hour limit for sending actions, so whatever happens, will happen.

In case I depart: I wish reading Russ wrong wouldn't have bumped my calculations off the certainty rail and that I could have sent you off into D13 with a clear impression of who we have left to lynch; but yeah, as far as I can tell, it leaves us otherwise with, at best for the civ cause, telling a civ and two baddies apart (at worst, they're all bad and we require magic to beat them all). And the telling apart will be quite problematic, at least by my appreciation.

I'll pull from my reads the essential points, that may relate or not to baddie behaviour (though mostly mafia teammate one, because I have no SK profiling done). Recap this, use it for your own re-reads, or come up with new angles or interpretations.

Diiny

D1 and D2 contains some questioning of LC's case making, but never developed all the way through - "D2 plans to look at LC case, but mentions that he didn't stood out to him". This also sticks out to me, even today - "Would vote Wilgy as his scummiest read, but intends to secure B24 over LC, after he finishes reading LC". He went for Llama. || LC notable interaction is lashing at Mac for waffling on suspecting or defending Diiny.

Misses out on the D6 fun and previous MacBaddie interactions aren't really swinging in any direction on the spectrum. At one point, "fends off MacBaddie's assertion that Diiny isn't responding to his accusations (by saying he'd rather focus on who to vote)", "questions MacBaddie on b24" and "just like MacBaddie, would rather see a coin flip lynch on D5". All his suspects post-lynch were/are civs (Sig, Choutas, seaside, JJJ). MacBaddie had greater suss on Diiny throughout the game - early on, then gone cold (D3 good GTH read), bad again the next two Days - but his D6 shrug conforming to Diiny as counter-wagon (with no other baddies confirmed on that wagon, except if you wish to still have doubts about JJJ) is the most important aspect to consider.

Suss on Floyd was constant.

Bullzeye interactions developed very late in the game. "D11 in reply to JJJ, compares Wilgy's and Bullzeye's lack of answering, siding with suspecting Wilgy (for several other things) over Bullzeye (being suspicious only for his lack of content)", "when questioned by me on the lurker baddie playing a lurk card, starts seeing the signs of this", "critical of Bullzeye, demading that he contribute if he's truly genuine", starts questioning players who waffle on the matter, yet he also decides that he "would prefer Fuzz (for potential backsliding) over Bullzeye, although still seeing Bullzeye as bad" and votes accordingly. Bullzeye hardly addresses anything about Diiny, except for seeing his LC vote as wafflish.

Wilgy

D2 starts with just a few words - " votes LC bad D2, not reading his bea interaction genuine" - then returns with a proper case. Pulls off major post-lynch analysis work, but comes up with civ suspects (Golden, JJJ, seaside, Sorsha). On LC's side, If I were Matt, I would be pinged right now by "congratulated Wilgy on becoming CEO, finds votes for him natural", considering that Wilgy has, indeed, been voted only by civs.

Starts suspecting Mac as early as D4 - "questions Mac D4 on keeping vote on Sorsha", even "asks for a Mac lynch. on D4!". Further moves: "questions Mac on his Sorsha lynching policy, demands clear viewpoints", "questions Mac after Sorsha's mislynch on info results", D6 "inquires Mac's targets the previous Night", votes him, reacts to being called teamie with Mac, more input on baddie theories, then just resorts to emoji reactions when Mac starts spewing him hard. Mac seems to also have been in sync with suspecting Wilgy, in fact starting a bit earlier (D3 GTH bad read).

D6 inquires Floyd on likely ACEO stuff, just like he did Mac, continues to "to mention Floyd in night kill questionings". Reads him bad GTH, but then goes with another option on consecutive Days, until Floyd is lynched.

Nothing on Bullzeye except one lone inquiry on him (towards Matt) D6, reading him good in GTH and the D11 vote moment, with no previous background, with an embrace of Choutas' case on him that he mentioned for the first time and with actually being ambivalent on either Bullzeye or JJJ. Bullzeye never interacted with him apart from one snark and one agreement with Wilgy suspecting b24.

Russ

Day 2 went from "eyeballs LC on waffling to say something about Sorsha" to "feels better about LC given that Syndicateers are vouching for his behaviour" to "voting LC for thinking she's pushing LC's lynch too hard" to voting LC, when he was tied with Llama, because he suspected him more as opposed to Llama. His vote and JJJ's put LC far into the tally, until Golden voted b24 and offered LC the lifeline. LC mostly notably defended Russ to "have time to breath and read before making statements on suspects" and fended off Russ' eyeballing.

Mac suspicions warmed up from "suddenly sees Mac as bad for his Sorsha lynch policy" to D5 "feels better about him after rebuttals, logic reads him as civ despite his flusterings, gut reads him as bad" to "back to sussing him: for SK centered policy, for being criticised and suspected by him; would be completely down with a Mac lynch" to "still reads Mac as scummy, but doubts himself, due to Choutas and JJJ "believing in him" to full case. Mac didn't care about any of this until his D6 case got serious, at which point he started barking at him.

With Bullzeye, the earliest he reacts and responds to Bullzeye's suss on him is D9 - "D9 comments on Bullzeye's vote for him simply being not very sporting and having no idea of any reason behind it". Comments on meta - "comments on Bullzeye turning barksy when bad, based on his [Russ'] experience (but means this without any offending)"; is inspired by a counter-example - "applauds MM's Monty Python find, plans to re-read Bullzeye". Starts suspecting Bullzeye's ways of returning, despite opposite claims ("confused by Bullzeye saying he's leaving, but reappearing"). D10 develops full case, "suspects him more and more after more non-commital ping". Wobbles, though, by "asking, however, Choutas to convince him that Bullzeye is the way to go; votes motel, otherwise" and "hissing more at Choutas suspecting him as Bullzeye's teammate". D11 keeps pressure - "D11 reads Bullzeye overwhelmed, but looking bad mafia-wise, for no valuable content" - and capitalizes - "reads Bullzeye most likely to be bad out of Fuzz and Wilgy", "stamp of approval on Bullzeye lynch".

Bullzeye picked an FZ case to suss Russ (D3), keeps the heat on D4 until Russ wagon becomes unlikely, keeps suspecting him for lynch result possibilities and returns with suss and votes D7 through D9.

[Tangrowth]

Night 12: Dr No More

Night 12 has ended.

????? has survived a kill attempt by Psycho Killer.
DrWilgy has been killed by Psycho Killer.

It is now Day 13. You have 48 hours to lynch someone.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

if that's what I think it is.

Maybe RIP Doc, maybe not. The mafia team has not been eliminated.

[Ricochet]

Diiny

if that's what I think it is.

Maybe RIP Doc, maybe not. The mafia team has not been eliminated.

What do you think it is?

I'm not wrong about who I think you are, btw, am I? As in you're not bullshiting me or anything?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

5 players left, all three factions presumably still involved. I think there are more than 2 townies alive.

3 vs 1 vs 1 seems most likely. It might even be obvious who is bad. Are we okay? We might be okay? I still feel uneasy. Hold me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not wrong about who I think you are, btw, am I? As in you're not bullshiting me or anything?

I'm not certain who you think I am but you're probably not wrong.

[Ricochet]

Also I seriouslly demand a refund for a game in which the serial killer gets to progressively double his killing rate. He's not at 2 kill attempts nightly, goddammit!

[Ricochet]

Well, shenanigans aside (such as JJJ being bad ), with Wilgy's death and there being no confirmation of any baddie faction being terminated, I think we need to lynch Diiny and Russ and wrap it up.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm still scared of you Rico. I threw poop at you in the night phase to dissuade you being night killed, but now that you've not been night killed I'm just scared that you're an evil overlord.

Yeah someone tried to kill someone I know. BUT I'M SCARED.

[Ricochet]

Hosts: is double targetting under effect regarding kill targets on consecutive Nights.

Just asking, because it's getting a bit tight for the SK to fail repeatedly.

[Ricochet]

Anyway, Blind is alive, the SK is alive, a mafioso is still alive, I'm solid good and I think MM is civilian (if you really insist, I received clearence to talk in more detail). So you do the math. Unless I have been tricked by JJJ, you have my names and I don't see any way around it.

[Tangrowth]

Hosts: is double targetting under effect regarding kill targets on consecutive Nights.

Just asking, because it's getting a bit tight for the SK to fail repeatedly.

Yes, double targeting is in effect.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hey Rico when this game ends am I going to hate your guts and consider you the worst human on the planet?

Your about me is reciprocated! I reciprocate!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*chews fingernails off pacing back and forth*

[Ricochet]

I'm still scared of you Rico. I threw poop at you in the night phase to dissuade you being night killed, but now that you've not been night killed I'm just scared that you're an evil overlord.

Yeah someone tried to kill someone I know. BUT I'M SCARED.

If you threw poop to have my not killed, why are you scared of me not having been killed? "I'm scared of what...I achieved"?

linki: If all goes according to plan and you didn't bullsuit me, then no, you will not hate me at all post-game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm still scared of you Rico. I threw poop at you in the night phase to dissuade you being night killed, but now that you've not been night killed I'm just scared that you're an evil overlord.

Yeah someone tried to kill someone I know. BUT I'M SCARED.

If you threw poop to have my not killed, why are you scared of me not having been killed? "I'm scared of what...I achieved"?

linki: If all goes according to plan and you didn't bullsuit me, then no, you will not hate me at all post-game.

[Ricochet]

My is more justified than yours, because I have attempted to put you for good in town camp based on certain N12 questions towards you and I got good signals from it - unless you tricked me by fabricating the answers to give me the good vibes. Which I guess I'll only find out if either Diiny or Russ flip good and the civ cause goes down in flames.

It's not the same as you having heebie jeebies on nothing concrete, as far as I can tell, except "what if Rico is Satan".

[DrWilgy]

FREEDOM!!!

Good luck! I believe in y'all!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not being entirely serious here. I have promoted a culture of trust for most of the game and you've been the focal point of my own adherence to that concept.

But still.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

(if you really insist, I received clearence to talk in more detail)

I could use a little of this juicy goss though. If you can help me to exonerate MM then I agree the suspect pool becomes exactly the size it must be for town to win. Try to share what you can without infringing upon your own desire for secrecy too much.

Maybe even give me a Top Secret Code to crack.

[Ricochet]

Good. Let's keep that culture going and lynch da baddies. We still need all the town votes to go in one direction, considering Blind's vote may misfire. In fact, I wouldn't mind if the opposite baddie would be a good lad and join us.

[Ricochet]

(if you really insist, I received clearence to talk in more detail)

I could use a little of this juicy goss though. If you can help me to exonerate MM then I agree the suspect pool becomes exactly the size it must be for town to win. Try to share what you can without infringing upon your own desire for secrecy too much.

Maybe even give me a Top Secret Code to crack.

Naw, I checked the sentences I would post with the judges and they're good to go. It doesn't have to do with secrecy, either, because it stems from the game (lynch results, role interpretation), in this case.

I'd just like to ask MM first if he's ok with this.

[Ricochet]

What do you think about Diiny's theory on you and Wilgy?

...although now that I recall it, he phrased a theory in which losing one would compromise the other, in some way, and that doesn't seem to have happened, regarding you.

It rather makes me believe instead that Diiny wanted to test it out.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Yeah I forgot to comment on that. I think it's quite elaborate and arbitrary. I've also never seen cross-alignment lovers in a game -- I've only seen them mentioned in the mafiascum wiki.

[Ricochet]

Also, to conclude the paranoia chapter for now, if you by any chance tricked me into losing this game, I will not speak to you again for the subsequent two games we play together (including the interval until that happens, which considering I'm going on a break, will be quite significant), no matter how much it affects my gameplay and my status in said games (i.e. people suspecting or lynching me for giving you the silent treatment or finding it unnatural).

You heard it here first, folks.

[Ricochet]

At this point, except for JJJ, the only heeb-jeeb I'm could get is recalling a wild theory on recruiting and the fact that MP, when asked, said "Recruits will be revealed when flipping" not "would be revealed when flipping, if they even exist".

It's a little Mattishly, coming from me, but it's the only thing I can imagine turning the tables.

MM, I think, also suggested Psycho Killer having secrets to aid him in case of being lynched, but honestly, if a serial killer who progressively increases his kill also gets lynch survival odds, this game is just broken. I can imagine him being NK immune, perhaps, but not lynch proof.

[Ricochet]

I'll dial down the posting for now and put on a movie. MM, JJJ, join me or talk me through choosing between Diiny and Russ, for toDay.