Tree Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Diiny]

lmao is it confirmed that wilgy's bullshitting now? talking about a thought process that mechanically couldn't have happened?

No fuckin shit.

So, concession?

Totes m'boats coatz

Luring out the cop day 1, being caught talking shit about a thought process that couldn't have happened and now attempting to wifom yourself out of it

scum of the year, all years

[a2thezebra]

FZ's grappling with Wilgy makes sense to me, it's a confusing situation, and FZ strikes me as someone wanting to get to the bottom of it quick. What gives me more pause is her stance on me which isn't very solid. I'd be glad to see someone say I wasn't bad normally, but she seemed to want to stay out of the entire conflict, possibly because she knows I'll flip town if I die but doesn't want the hassle of defending someone a lot of people think is bad. She has some pretty brutal disses in her post history.

Audio Version:


link: fug

How poetic that my biggest scum read understands the reasoning behind my second biggest scum read better than anyone else.

Wait, this reasoning for your second scum read doesn't even make sense if I'm scum. And you underlined stuff that involved me being town specifically. What's up?

It makes sense because my suspicion of FZ isn't dependent on you being her teammate as others seemed to think it was. Her distancing of you while simultaneously voting for you is equally questionable whether you're her teammate or not. If you're scum, it makes just as much sense and actually makes her distancing of you more easily understood. What on earth did I underline that involved you being town? You're not town.

"possibly because she knows I'll flip town if I die"

You commented that I understand your reasoning but a big part of my reasoning was me being town. I understand your stance as you've posted it just now. Was my understanding of your problem with FZ summed up in "What gives me more pause is her stance on me which isn't very solid. I'd be glad to see someone say I wasn't bad normally, but she seemed to want to stay out of the entire conflict..." ?

That doesn't involve you being town, it acknowledges the possibility. It clarifies that FZ being bad is not dependent on you being bad as well, which is something that I think a number of people didn't get when I was questioning FZ. You've summed up my issue just fine, gracias.

[a2thezebra]

Linki- I agree FZ, this game is getting pretty awful.

This game is getting worse by the minute

I need to reread people, and I don't have time for it now.

How much do you want to bet that one or both of these posters are scum

Nothing, thanks. Are you implying that either of those particular posts are scummy?

[a2thezebra]

I don't need a lecture about being inspiring and playing for lucky breaks from a guy who voted out the cop Day 1.

Horseshit ad hominem is beneath you. You're bad.

That's not an ad hominem, nor is it horseshit.

You ignored my accusation and attacked my credibility. Ad hominem.

My part in yesterday's lynch is irrelevant, and I did not lecture you.

I'm going to level with you. If you're town, you stink. You've done shit all and pretend to have high ground because shit all is better than a vote for the cop.

You're bad.

Attacking your credibility is not an ad hominem. If you are bad, then you should have no credibility.

Now, the underlined, THAT's an ad hominem, Chuckles.

Presently, I have done more for the civilians than you have. You are, as of now, a liability to the civilians. If we had voted out Floyd Day 1 and even then he turned out to be a civilian, that STILL would have been a superior play than what transpired. And your vote for Enrique was the weakest maneuver I've ever witnessed you make. Observe:

Doc's review of Enrique brought me to this post.

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

The highlighted bits seem a bit inflated to me -- as in they assign importance and seriousness to something that I don't think needs to be viewed that way. Why is lynching DrWilgy a "big risk" by comparison to lynching the guy he claimed to red peek when most of us thought it was a lie anyway?

Moreover, Enrique has been entertaining the notion that Doc and Diiny are both Mafia, which makes me wonder what he thinks Diiny's lynch would reveal about Doc that he hasn't already implied. If Diiny flips town, his suspicion of Doc can persist for obvious reasons (he lied about a red peek and pushed hard for an errant lynch). If Diiny flips mafia, then his suspicion of Doc can still persist based on his own exploration of the bussing possibility.

So I'm not sure this post aligns nicely with Enrique's own stated mindset.

According to this post, you define "seems a bit inflated to me" as "[assigning] importance and seriousness to something [you] don't think needs to be viewed that way." Aside from the hedged phrasing there ("seems a bit"), the definition of "inflated" you provided is now discredited. You then ask a question that Enrique answered in the post you quoted (it's risky to lynch Wilgy before learning where he was going with his cop claim...bear in mind that it's the cop allowing WIlgy's antic).

In the second section, you preemptively cast suspicion on Enrique based on a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. That is a rotten tactic, and, ironically, it allows YOU to maintain an Enrique suspicion if Enrique survives Day 1 and Dinny is lynched either way.

So 3J, if you are the arbiter of who is stinking as a civilian, I'm not at all bothered with the insult. But you're not the arbiter of who stinks as a civilians- Mafia don't get to decide that.

I'm calling 3J and Floyd as teammates.

This is the biggest pile of Epi shit I've ever seen.

[DrWilgy]

Ok... Intoxicated.
@Zebra <3

Diiny can you be any more disingenuous?

[Diiny]

de nada, zebrada.

[Diiny]

Ok... Intoxicated.
@Zebra <3

Diiny can you be any more disingenuous?

Yes

"Recent events have shed a fantastic light on you; you truly are a real doctor"

It was hard but I did it

[Diiny]

Linki- I agree FZ, this game is getting pretty awful.

This game is getting worse by the minute

I need to reread people, and I don't have time for it now.

How much do you want to bet that one or both of these posters are scum

Nothing, thanks. Are you implying that either of those particular posts are scummy?

These kinds of posts are skemmy as fug. My eyes were opened to them by aokiji in moomin when he successfully identified a scum TCB and golden when he mercilessly clowned sanmateo on d1.

[Epignosis]

This is the biggest pile of Epi shit I've ever seen.

Thanks for your careful and measured analysis.

[a2thezebra]

Okay FZ, I was reluctant to call you out on misrepresenting my argument when it comes to what exactly I think Wilgy is doing in this game in the last post I made, because I feel like I call people out on that too often when it's not true and/or warranted. But this is just too much. Let me go back and take a look at your magnificent concoction of assumptions and straw man arguments.

And I need to make it clear and more vocal that there's a difference between being wrong for being wrong and being wrong for being bad.

WTF does that supposed to mean?

You're only trying to justify your Diiny vote as being based on Wilgy's claim because it's easier to pull off as genuine than faking a reason why you think he is actually bad or at least inconspicuously parroting everyone else that does.

This is ridiculous. Either Wilgy is telling the truth or not. If he is, then I find trusting him to be the best thing to do. Since you're not voting Wilgy, I'm assuming you think he's lying about knowing for a fact Diiny is bad. If that's the case, you should be a lot more worried about him than you are me, but don't let logic confuse you.

Alright, so your assumption (and you even admit, it is in fact an assumption) that I think Wilgy is lying stems from me not voting for him? I could write a piece that Ayn Rand fanboys would appreciate based on how illogical that assumption is, but I'll move on instead.

This is most likely because he's your teammate but it's still a valid hypothesis even if he's somehow not.

I must be really dense today, because I swear to god, I'm not understanding half the players this game.

Two options I've seen brought up:

1. Enrique: Wilgy and Diiny are bad. The former is throwing the latter under the bus by fake claiming something that the real cop knows is not true.

2. Zebra: Wilgy is lying, and taking the most stupid risk I've ever seen someone take (it's not like he can use some excuse that his actions got redirected or whatever) which will be discovered the minute Diiny is lynched, and I'm following him because it's easier to show I'm trusting him instead of finding a real reason to suspect someone.

I'd like to call at least one of you bad, but these theories seem so far fetched that I can't possibly think a baddie would be that crazy to try and pin them on people.

So to recap, you've gone from an assumption about one of my hypotheses based on me not voting for a particular player, to representing that assumption that you have made as an "option" that you've seen me brought up. Calling this misrepresentation wouldn't even do this justice anymore. This is lying, plain and simple. I don't think Wilgy is lying and I don't think he's telling the truth either. As I've already made clear earlier, what Wilgy is doing is pure WIFOM to me that could go too many different ways to make any assumptions about, which makes it all the easier for baddies such as yourself to use a fake perspective on what he is doing to your advantage. And you are not following him, you are faking following him. If you can't see that aspect of my argument then that means you've most likely been caught red-handed, because bottom line, that IS the argument itself.

This post is biggest bunch of zebra shit I've ever seen.

[DrWilgy]

At least um willing to do shit. Enrique... I got love for you as a person but if youbare reading this. Im so mad at you. Why did you throw yourself away like that? If you were so concerned with it. You died because of it. Whyyyyyy

Put me down coach DrWilgy

[a2thezebra]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat the fuck. Why are we digging our own grave here? If scum is going to win this game let's at least give them a damn challenge.

[Diiny]

Top. Quality. Wifom.

[DrWilgy]

I mean... I was trying to figure out whobwas hiding stuff... I was right... You were hiding stuff, but you gotta trust your team as cop othrwise you die...

Don't worry zebra I'm all the challenge they need... But im sad mad and depressed... And drunknso its all comong out.

[a2thezebra]

Top. Quality. Wifom.

10/10 would call a taxi

[Diiny]

Wilgo, you have no reason to feel this bad about killing enrique, we've established he didn't do himself any favours

[DrWilgy]

Who wants to box? I know... But had i reacted we wouldve at least had the chance to gibe a baddie

[Diiny]

Reacted to a post made after the deadline? Stop

[Diiny]

Top. Quality. Wifom.

10/10 would call a taxi

que?

[DrWilgy]

It was after deadline?

[Diiny]

It was after deadline?

Yes, hence me saying this:

lmao is it confirmed that wilgy's bullshitting now? talking about a thought process that mechanically couldn't have happened?

No fuckin shit.

Note your response

[DrWilgy]

Oh lol, yeah i blame Enrique for all of this. <3 tho. Live and learn.

[Diiny]

No, no, now you need to explain why you were talking in such depth about something that couldn't have happened! Where were you like two pages ago, how were you replying to the thread without actually knowing what was going on

[DrWilgy]

Because i thought it was a thing lol. Diiny how troublin is it knowing you wont lynch me?

[DrWilgy]

Itlf I start being depressing let me know. I have troubles with that especially when drunk.

[Diiny]

Because i thought it was a thing lol. Diiny how troublin is it knowing you wont lynch me?

How does a man with a vote on himself saying this; how is this level of wifom being tolerated

You're not helping yourself out.

If you're genuinely feeling sad a mafia game full of scrutiny and stress ain't the place. Feel free to PM me though

[DrWilgy]

Because i thought it was a thing lol. Diiny how troublin is it knowing you wont lynch me?

How does a man with a vote on himself saying this; how is this level of wifom being tolerated

You're not helping yourself out.

If you're genuinely feeling sad a mafia game full of scrutiny and stress ain't the place. Feel free to PM me though

Because dfaraday is still afk

Because epi is still floating floyd

EZ Bae

Next?

[a2thezebra]

Hey Wilgy there's no better cure for hangovers than lynching a bad guy, and you're currently the cause of a tie preventing a lynch against that guy.

Diiny can you be any more disingenuous?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Presently, I have done more for the civilians than you have.

This is only true in the most literal sense that 0 > -1.

If you as a 0 think you have the right to disparage the -1s, then I'm suggesting you're being ridiculous.

According to this post, you define "seems a bit inflated to me" as "[assigning] importance and seriousness to something [you] don't think needs to be viewed that way." Aside from the hedged phrasing there ("seems a bit"), the definition of "inflated" you provided is now discredited. You then ask a question that Enrique answered in the post you quoted (it's risky to lynch Wilgy before learning where he was going with his cop claim...bear in mind that it's the cop allowing WIlgy's antic).

That manner of "hedged phrasing" can be found all over every post history I've ever produced in Mafia.

I don't know what logic you've followed to arrive at the highlighted conclusion. How is that "definition of 'inflated'" "now discredited"? Do you mean discredited in that I was wrong about Enrique? Because if that's the logic, then everything I said to support my Enrique vote can be designated as "discredited". I don't know why you're focusing on this specific language.

In the second section, you preemptively cast suspicion on Enrique based on a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. That is a rotten tactic, and, ironically, it allows YOU to maintain an Enrique suspicion if Enrique survives Day 1 and Dinny is lynched either way.

It is impossible to assert this manner of suspicion without producing this return. I felt Enrique's treatment of DrWilgy with respect to the Diiny interaction did not make sense in light of his prior stated suspicion that the two are on a team together. Now we know he was being genuine in this content, but I couldn't have known that then and I made my read.

So 3J, if you are the arbiter of who is stinking as a civilian, I'm not at all bothered with the insult. But you're not the arbiter of who stinks as a civilians- Mafia don't get to decide that.

I'm sure Epi is already aware, but I don't want others to think I just dissed him to be a jerk. It was a tongue-in-cheek reference to this post from Talking Heads

Spoiler: show

Matt, I'm going to level with you.

If you are a civilian, you stink.

I'm calling 3J and Floyd as teammates.

I'm tempted to call you and Floyd as team mates. I don't like to build mafia teams without getting a dead one first though.

[a2thezebra]

JJJ I agree that Epi isn't playing a game I would endorse by any means, but why is he bad?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Now let's examine why I think Epignosis is full of shit:

And your vote for Enrique was the weakest maneuver I've ever witnessed you make.

You didn't care enough to say this until after I accused you of something. You stated awareness of my vote, but you literally did not give a shit:

3J put his vote on Enrique first, and then wham bam no thank ya ma'am, Enrique's votes followed.

I don't give a shit about the Cop lynch.

Still interested in FLOYD.

"the weakest maneuver I've ever witnessed [JaggedJimmyJay] make" isn't worth your time? Not until I attack you first?

Moreover, you've spent some time shitting in the Corn Flakes of those who contributed to Enrique's lynch while propping yourself up:

I'm dead and I was the cop and all of you suck.

I don't suck. Just sayin'.

So the cop was of absolutely no use to anyone because people are morons. Gonna have to do this the old fashioned way.

I don't see why you were saved and Enrique was obliterated.

So naturally we can assume Epignosis made a concerted effort to prevent this miserable moronic disaster.

*CTRL+F for "Enrique" in Epi's Day 1 posts*

*crickets chirping*

*tumbleweed blows over the thread*

Nothing whatsoever.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Doc, I think Diiny's point against you is compelling enough to warrant a respectful response. I'm not saying there can be no explanation, but I need to see you try. Goofing around and self-voting are a problem.

[Diiny]

And I have no idea why Zebra's treating it like it's no biggie.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I gotta get to sleep. I look forward to tomorrow's argument. :P

[a2thezebra]

And I have no idea why Zebra's treating it like it's no biggie.

I'm not, I just don't see how it's alignment-indicative.

[DrWilgy]

Okie dokie artickie

Diiny

[Diiny]

And I have no idea why Zebra's treating it like it's no biggie.

I'm not, I just don't see how it's alignment-indicative.

You don't see how liberal use of wifom is alignment indicative?

[a2thezebra]

And I have no idea why Zebra's treating it like it's no biggie.

I'm not, I just don't see how it's alignment-indicative.

You don't see how liberal use of wifom is alignment indicative?

Nope. Enlighten me.

[Epignosis]

Now let's examine why I think Epignosis is full of shit:

And your vote for Enrique was the weakest maneuver I've ever witnessed you make.

You didn't care enough to say this until after I accused you of something. You stated awareness of my vote, but you literally did not give a shit:

3J put his vote on Enrique first, and then wham bam no thank ya ma'am, Enrique's votes followed.

I don't give a shit about the Cop lynch.

Still interested in FLOYD.

You are SO WRONG. I literally did give a shit about 11:00 this morning, thank you very much.

And I didn't look back at anybody's reasoning for voting Enrique until this afternoon, when I continued my participation (i.e., after work). That you accused me of something moments before is coincidence. And, really, you didn't accuse me of anything I wouldn't freely admit:

Epignosis's crusade against Floyd is based upon what strikes me as close to nothing, so I view it dubiously. Regardless of Floyd's alignment, I don't understand Epi's conduct as a town approach -- he is shouting his desired target and apparently doesn't care much at all about anything else happening in the game. That's not inspiring, and even if he is right about Floyd it would strike me as luck at best and calculated at worst. Epi doesn't strike me as the guy that plays for a lucky break.

I don't know how one can have any conviction in reading Floyd as town or mafia right now. There's not enough there.

I'm crusading against Floyd based upon close to nothing? Check.
You don't understand my conduct as a "town approach?" Join the ever-growing club who have said that about me many times and been wrong (FZ. is the newest inducted member there).
Shouting my desired target? Yep.
Not being inspiring? It's not my job to be inspiring- it's my job to lynch Mafia.

So go ahead and make a big scene about how you came at me first and therefore my suspicion of you is contrived. I don't care. People can scream NO U or OMGUS at me, and anyone who has played with me knows I don't give a damn about that.

++++

To others:

I don't think 3J was being genuine with his vote on Enrique. 3J's vote was out of the way at the time. When the biggest discussions were Diiny and FZ., 3J casts the first vote for Enrique based on flimsy reasoning.

Therefore, I don't think 3J was expecting Enrique to get lynched. I think he played it safe and then tried to set up Enrique by preemptively commenting on a Dinny lynch, which looked like the most likely scenario at the time:

Moreover, Enrique has been entertaining the notion that Doc and Diiny are both Mafia, which makes me wonder what he thinks Diiny's lynch would reveal about Doc that he hasn't already implied. If Diiny flips town, his suspicion of Doc can persist for obvious reasons (he lied about a red peek and pushed hard for an errant lynch). If Diiny flips mafia, then his suspicion of Doc can still persist based on his own exploration of the bussing possibility.

So I'm not sure this post aligns nicely with Enrique's own stated mindset.

To those who know 3J better than I do, would a civilian 3J make this kind of "damned if Diiny flips good / damned if Diiny flips bad" against someone Day 1?

[Diiny]

Frequently used in place of the real arguments and evidence in their favour that scum often lack, or used as seen here to avoid accountability for stuff.

[a2thezebra]

I understand your conduct is a town approach Epi, just not a good one.

[a2thezebra]

Also, it is not your job to lynch mafia. It is OUR job. If it was your job solely, Floyd would have been lynched Day 1. This is a team effort so if you want mafia to be lynched, then it absolutely is your job to be inspiring.

...

And recently, you have been.

JaggedJimmyJay

[a2thezebra]

Frequently used in place of the real arguments and evidence in their favour that scum often lack, or used as seen here to avoid accountability for stuff.

It's only alignment-indicative if the scum-motivated explanation is just as if not more likely than any other explanation. I don't think Wilgy is avoiding accountability either.

[DrWilgy]

JJJ's argument is what sported me away from diiny... I still wanna lynch diiny, but I could see him as suspsishss

[Epignosis]

That's not inspiring, and even if he is right about Floyd it would strike me as luck at best and calculated at worst. Epi doesn't strike me as the guy that plays for a lucky break.

Translation: Even if I'm right about Floyd, I don't deserve to be taken seriously because I either got lucky or I'm throwing him under the bus.

The reason I find this part of his post astounding is that 3J calls people out when he gets the impression someone is attacking his credibility rather than this argument. Yet here, 3J takes a shot at my credibility. He did the same thing with Enrique (see above).

I have never witnessed a civilian 3J (or many civilians, for that many), take such measured steps to assault someone's credibility BEFORE a flip, yet scream that it's bad behavior to impugn his own AFTER a flip.

According to 3J:

If Diiny is good, then Enrique can go after Wilgy. If Diiny is bad, then Enrique can go after Wilgy.

If Floyd is bad, then Epi is either lucky or a calculating teammate.

Neither of these items actually say anything, because they say everything. 3J swept the gamut of possibilities here, meanwhile giving himself an excuse to keep voting us.

It's manufactured. It's bullshit. And it's not a civilian 3J.

[a2thezebra]

JJJ's argument is what sported me away from diiny... I still wanna lynch diiny, but I could see him as suspsishss

Not only that, but I think he's using arguments against Epi today that are attacking nothing more than his logic while masquerading as arguments that are an attack on his alignment. It reeks of opportunism.

[a2thezebra]

That's not inspiring, and even if he is right about Floyd it would strike me as luck at best and calculated at worst. Epi doesn't strike me as the guy that plays for a lucky break.

Translation: Even if I'm right about Floyd, I don't deserve to be taken seriously because I either got lucky or I'm throwing him under the bus.

The reason I find this part of his post astounding is that 3J calls people out when he gets the impression someone is attacking his credibility rather than this argument. Yet here, 3J takes a shot at my credibility. He did the same thing with Enrique (see above).

I have never witnessed a civilian 3J (or many civilians, for that many), take such measured steps to assault someone's credibility BEFORE a flip, yet scream that it's bad behavior to impugn his own AFTER a flip.

According to 3J:

If Diiny is good, then Enrique can go after Wilgy. If Diiny is bad, then Enrique can go after Wilgy.

If Floyd is bad, then Epi is either lucky or a calculating teammate.

Neither of these items actually say anything, because they say everything. 3J swept the gamut of possibilities here, meanwhile giving himself an excuse to keep voting us.

It's manufactured. It's bullshit. And it's not a civilian 3J.

This is the town Epignosis I adore.

[motel room]

Motel or anyone else you should probably look at the votes to make up for epi's floyd-o-vision which I don't really know what to make of

I have no idea what this means.

I learned last game that Epi is pretty unorthodox and that doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. If he keeps badgering Floyd, no one follows, Floyd stays alive and there's no reveal of "here's why I've been steadily wasting my vote" then I would be more concerned. But its so blatant.

Don't really get why he's so enamoured with Floyd either. These reactions remind me of him in Talking Heads

What is wrong with you? Seriously, tell me.

Are you really that simple minded?

but otherwise nah I don't particularly want to lynch him.

[Epignosis]

I will never understand you a2z.

[a2thezebra]

I will never understand you a2z.

The feeling is mutual and that is what makes life great.