Grimm's Fairy Tale Mafia - Day 13

[Prisoner 509378]

Also, cool to have so many new/old players rejoining! Welcome.

[Golf]

That story is a good choice, Ameerah.

[Saito]

Ok, if it'll help people I'll put it up. Tomorrow though, since it'll be long and I only have phone access today. As Shand noted, it'll be biased, but I'm ok with that. And Bronwyn, to be more clear I wasn't pinged by your request, which I find totally reasonable and in the spirit of mafia, just by the timing of the request, because it seems to give Rumpelstiltskin and friends a chance to use my words against me, literally

Ok I see. I really thought you would be putting it up in our last sunlight time and then when you didn't, I sure didn't want to ask you to do it during the nocturnal hours as most people do not like to illustrate their position during those hours. That's why I asked during the nocturnal hours if you would do it during this sunlight time. There was no intent to wait until Rumpel could get you.

[NurseWilgy]

Actually Gobnait, I think it would be more helpful to me if you did put a case up against Queran. Given that I read through all of those posts in a few hours yesterday, a synopsis would probably be helpful in making a decision ultimately. Right now though I would have to say I slightly side with you being nice and Queran being naughty. As for Carmen, I definitely do not get the warm fuzzies there. And the potential role-hint doesn't make me feel any better. It really surprised me that people started backing off of that when it was mentioned. Otherwise that's all I've got for right now.

[Young Lady]

My Gob Case will be in my next post. This is a warning that the post will be rather large as it contains a number of quotes throughout the whole of the game.

[Ned Flanders]

Carmen is now on my watch list. To sound confused in her posts, and word things in a way that says, "here I am Prince, find me!" suggested someone who hasn't played much. But her post today mentioning her experience with the game, and sounding much more sure of herself, have me on edge. Not that I didn't appreciate the humor of the post, a witch always enjoys a good cackle. (if cackle turns out to be the magic word du jour, I'll ship my draws)

I'm interested in hearing more from Deirdre today. And Ameerah. And Laine.

And Carmen, have you any suspicions you'd like to share?

[Golf]

About the only nice thing I can say about Carmen is that she has nice wings.

[Jack Shephard]

My favourite character is Red Riding Hood because she's cute, dressed in red and a bit stupid.

[Jack Shephard]

Thank Jupiter! I've spent ages thinking which character I like the most. Truth be told I don't have one and I know so few.

[Golf]

Thank Jupiter! I've spent ages thinking which character I like the most. Truth be told I don't have one and I know so few.

Very wisely chosen, Dallon.

[Jack Shephard]

Ok RIP Bac I was leaning civvie on you
RIP Etain also. I was heavily leaning civvie on you.

[Jack Shephard]

Thank Jupiter! I've spent ages thinking which character I like the most. Truth be told I don't have one and I know so few.

Very wisely chosen, Dallon.

More desperation that wisdom, my friend.

[Quokka]

RIP Etain and Bac

With regards to my favourite character, I don't really have one. I'd have to say either Red Riding Hood or Rapunzel. The former because I like her red cloak and the latter because of Tangled. Sorry.

[Julinook]

Carmen is now on my watch list. To sound confused in her posts, and word things in a way that says, "here I am Prince, find me!" suggested someone who hasn't played much. But her post today mentioning her experience with the game, and sounding much more sure of herself, have me on edge. Not that I didn't appreciate the humor of the post, a witch always enjoys a good cackle. (if cackle turns out to be the magic word du jour, I'll ship my draws)

I'm interested in hearing more from Deirdre today. And Ameerah. And Laine.

And Carmen, have you any suspicions you'd like to share?

I never said *how* much experience I have with mafia, just that I have some. My experience could be just from what I have observed in this game only. I would come right out and say if this was my first game or how many games I have played if I weren't Carmen. However, I think the point of being Carmen, or Miyuki, is to keep all of those types of things secret.

I've not been calling out to a the prince. "The right fit" comment was meant to be clever and funny and Cinderella really is my favorite story. I am a really bad liar. So, I tend to stick with the truth, which is what I have done all game. I had been very quiet in the beginning, sticking to short posts that were very to-the-point. I was afraid to be a pawn in Rumple's hand. But, when it came to the night of the poll about the glass slipper (I cannot remember the other options off the top of my head), I decided it was about time to have some fun.

That said, (and I know this sounds a bit contradictory with this post in mind),I would say that my suspicions lie in those with really lengthy posts. They have something to say but babble on and on before getting to the point, or they have not point at all. The say, "So-and-so may be bad. He did this, and this, and that. Or, you know...I could be wrong." This makes me think they are a part of Rumple's team and aren't afraid to accidentally use the word of the day. Now, watch me get caught saying the word b/c I finally made a semi-long post.

[Golf]

RIP Etain and Bac

With regards to my favourite character, I don't really have one. I'd have to say either Red Riding Hood or Rapunzel. The former because I like her red cloak and the latter because of Tangled. Sorry.

Never apologize, Laine. Your contributions are highly valued.

Carmen, I think posting length has more to do with personal style than mafia affiliation.

[Ned Flanders]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

[Jack Shephard]

RIP Etain and Bac

With regards to my favourite character, I don't really have one. I'd have to say either Red Riding Hood or Rapunzel. The former because I like her red cloak and the latter because of Tangled. Sorry.

Never apologize, Laine. Your contributions are highly valued.

Carmen, I think posting length has more to do with personal style than mafia affiliation.

Yes but they could overlap. It could be either is what I mean. Or by happy coincidence a verbose baddie is on Rumpy's team.

[Jack Shephard]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

Magic words do not count in quotes. We have been told this.

[Ned Flanders]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

Magic words do not count in quotes. We have been told this.

Ok thanks, I didn't see that, but I'll go back and look.

[Julinook]

About the only nice thing I can say about Carmen is that she has nice wings.

Now wait, I seem to recall you saying that my fun-loving spirit and lightheartedness does me credit. I should have come out with that from the beginning. I was just afraid of Rumple and saying too much.

What exactly do you have against me? Yeah, I survived a lynch. Obviously Rumple was trying to cause confusion and was successful. What else?

Linki with Miyaki: I was quite confused about the whole role hinting thing at first. I didn't have a clue what Bac was talking about. I didn't get it until later when someone else clarified (don't remember who). I thought it was hilarious that you all read into it so much, sorry it was. I was sooo so busy at the time when I finally understood, however, and did not refute it. I apologize. I just thought it was too hilarious. But, even if I did say, "Hey, no role hinting is going on here" I bet you all would just have said.. "See! She's BAD!" Once under suspicion, it doesn't matter what you do, it is CRAZY difficult to redeem yourself.

[Jack Shephard]

I have found it Miyuki in case you haven't.

I don't know if this has been asked, or made clear. If the magic word is used in a quote, does it also count as a vote for Rumpel to steal?

quoting does not add rumple votes. Only the original person who said the word has their vote changed.

[Young Lady]

The Illustrious Me, Purveyor of Angry Birds, Duke of Downton Not-Too-Shabby, Pant's on The Ground, Pant's On The Ground, Lookin' Like a Fool With My Pant's on The Ground, The Feebler Elf, Does herein present the evidence against Her Stoniness, The Ironic Giant, The False Faced Frogurt, Gobnait Gingeruite.

Firstly I have collected evidence to suggest that her Rockhood, The Statue That Will Mount the World, sought to cover her own granite ass at every possible turn.

I have to go to bed and thus will be responding to the other things happening in the thread later on, but I thought that the "If Jorhan is bad so is Queran, if he is good then Gobnait is bad" idea that seems to have come up among a few of us needed to be addressed.

It's definitely true that if Jorhan shows bad it strengthens my theory about Queran (and all Caillic voters) a great deal. However, I don't think Jorhan being good would necessarily clear his voters, as I think the vote pattern at the end of the Day 1 lynch still looks pretty suspicious.

I don't see in any way how Jorhan's innocence or guilt has any bearing on mine. I mentioned him very briefly in my original large post as probably being bad if some of Caillic's voters were bad. I personally haven't seen thread activity from him that worries me as much as the people we know are guilty of lynching a civ on Day 1 are. He certainly may be bad, but he could also be good; I have no idea on that point right now, nor have I ever claimed to.

I noticed Queran and Ameerah saying Bronwyn's post I have been quoting was directed at Caillic and not Ameerah like I thought? That actually makes a lot of sense, and I understand Bronwyn's post much better now. I thought (partly because of Caillic's troll avatar, which struck me as manly but apparently isn't) that Caillic was a male name. Google informs me that's not true. I sincerely apologize for my misreading of Bronwyn and will be glad to reexamine my case against her in light of it tomorrow when I log back on. Thanks to Q&A for pointing that out to me. I will point out that that has no bearing on any point I've made about Queran himself, but I do think I need to read through all Day 1 Caillic voters to make sure my reads so far have been right.

I have (and will continue to) highlighted the parts of Gobnait's posts I will address in this case. As you all can clearly see:

Gobnait admits that if Jorhan flips bad, it will give her case more merit. She is however unwilling to admit the converse, that if Jorhan flips good, it would give her case less merit. She also does the classic "He may be bad, he may be good" argument, which I have seen many a mafia do when they want to cover their ass if they know or strongly suspect they are about to lynch a civvie. The final highlight in this post is in regard to her false claims about Bronwyn and myself, which I have rebuffed here She admits that a fundamental part of her bookish post (the linking of myself and Bronwyn) was in all actuality inaccurate. And yet refuses to admit that the lack of a link between myself and Bronwyn (a major factor in her bookish post) diminishes the validity of that case in any way. Her base covering is a recurring thing as you shall soon see, and her refusal to see both sides of the coin is troubling and suspect.

Gobnait, could you share what you are still seeing about Queran? I thought the suspicion was based on her vote for Caillic in that it was supposedly saving a bad Johran. Since that turned out to not be true I'm curious what you are seeing at this point.

Yeah, my original case against Queran carries next to no weight now. Basically my ping now is that I wasn't at all satisfied by his defenses from the morning of Day 2 on. In fact, they've reeked of insincerity to me. The most notable example is his accusation that I was "NO U"ing him and then later deciding to vote me after I had voted him, when it was already clear Jorhan was going to die. That, plus continuous efforts to call me a liar and characterize my statements using mafia jargon (ie NO Uing, backtracking, and others, iirc) instead of having a reasonable discussion about why he's not bad, make me think he is.

However, I think that for today I'll have to look elsewhere for my vote, since others don't seem to share my thoughts and I'd prefer not to throw mine away.

Welcome, Etain! Good to see you, Feline Diviner of Things Undone.

I for one am satisfied by Mainchin's reply to my query, and since I haven't been pinged by anything other than his switch he's out of contention for my vote for the time being. I don't know what to make of Rhinfrew's case on Miyuki since I had been reading them both civ; I think for now it just means he(?) will bear a bit of watching.

I'm frustrated, disheartened, and pinged by Finnian's refusal to contribute suspicions, or really anything of use. Same goes for Laine, to a slightly lesser degree. I also wish Fane would show up and say something. I know he says he's new and seemed to be lacking some confidence, but I think he could contribute to the discussion. The timing of people mentioning pings about him and him disappearing from the thread doesn't give me warm fuzzies, though I don't think it's a major ping yet.

At this point I could see my vote going to Queran if others share my suspicions, or to Carmen or Finnian. I don't think that it's surefire that either Carmen or FInnian is bad though, and my own lack of confidence worries me.

For reference, the above post was after Jorhan was lynched. Having lost the last remaining pillar of here case, Gobnait switches gears completely, inventing a whole new reason to suspect me. I shall address the issues she brings up now: Firstly, I do believe she was No Uing me after I briefly brought her up as a ping of mine and she immediately followed up with her (now debunked, and at the time clearly incredibly flawed and rushed) case. As for lying, you only have to look at her original case, her defense of that case, etc, to see that she was deliberately twisting the truth to fit an agenda.

And again at the end of this post she does some nice base covering.


Now I want to address another issue, Gob's affinity for blending into the crowd.. Her affection for Bac's posts pinged me because, in my experience, it's very easy for someone to attach themselves to someone else, whom the believe to be civvie, in an effort to appear also civvie. To cut down on the size of this post I will not cite every time Gob did this with Bac, but sufficed to say if you read back through her posts, you will notice the pattern. I will however point this out:

Wow, I just realized I hadn't absorbed any of Page 15 since I read it at 5am. There's some good stuff in there. Mainchin, you say you're sure your read on Laine is right?

Eurolyvn, very insightful analysis about Carmen and Fane. I'm now also surprised she never gave Fane a closer look. In my personal opinion, Finnian is still a slightly better candidate for lynching tomorrow, but if you and others want to go for Carmen instead then I'm with you.

For someone so opinionated, so focused on discussion and theories, Gobnait's proposal to "follow the herd" here strikes me as odd..

Now I'd like to address the aggressiveness with which Gobnait has attacked my posts.

But not even willing to venture the slightest guess about anyone else?

When my attentions are less distracted I'll offer my thoughts on others. Probably later this afternoon.

Maybe I should be more clear about why I'd like to hear your thoughts. The first reason is my suspicion of players who haven't contributed to discussion (see Finnian). You haven't contributed since Day 2 other than to say "I'm not evil, you're evil!". I thought I'd give you a chance to try to help the civs instead of just defending yourself. A shame you're too distracted.

The second reason was that if you're bad as I believe, your posts may give some clue as to who your teammates are. Unfortunately, while all of your posts are directed at me we're unlikely to get anywhere useful. We need good lynch candidates today, and I believe you're using our argument as a distraction to stop others from discussing and to stall giving any opinions that could later incriminate you.

Either way, I think it's apparent neither of us will be lynched today, so how about we drop our differences together and work on something mutual instead of beating a dead horse?

Something you will see repeated here is Gobnait's extending an olive branch with one hand and smacking me in the face with another. I believe this is an attempt to antagonize me whilst appearing genuine in nature.

I just need to decide. Going with Finnian, because his total unwillingness to provide any suspicions whatsoever reminds me a lot of Queran. Speaking of whom, he never did come back and mention those other names he said he'd bring up, despite the fact that this lynch is vital if Bac's numbers are right and has required a lot of discussion.

I'm holding onto hope that Carmen may say something useful once the rl concerns she mentioned clear up.

Linki: Oh no, Mainchin! If you're civ we can't afford to have you throwing away panic votes because of clock errors! Can you give further insight into what made you go with Etain, who just joined us, rather than someone about whom we have information to go on?

Linki x2: Carmen, I think others found random votes for Jorhan strange as well. If I'm understanding Ameerah's point here, I think she's asking why vote him on Day 2 if you thought he was the target of a plot on Day 1, as you are implying?

Highlighted here again is two things:

1. Despite me saying I'd be back in the afternoon to give my thoughts (which I did) Gobnait takes advantage of my absence to once again twist things to fit her vendetta. Sprinkling a nice bit of "this lynch is vital to the civ cause, Queran isn't here to contribute, hense Queran does not care about the civ cause" in there just for flavor.

2. Once more we see Gobnait's unwillingness to compromise, as she mentions she hopes Carmen will speak up once RL concerns clear out. Now, I mentioned that I would be back in the afternoon and offer my thoughts when I was less distracted, but Gobnait was unwilling to allow me the time she was willing to allow Carmen.



Finally, the weakest bit of my case I will admit, yet something that caught my eye as I was reading back and preparing this post:

And Rhinfrew, if I'm reading you right you've been talking about Grutfud, not Finnian, right? Grutfud is the one who participated in the democratic process on Sunny Period 2 but not 1 or 3. I suppose it's a remote possibility that they are the SKs and that, having both not participated, were unable to kill, but it just seems counterintuitive somehow. Personally I doubt that that explains the lack of NKs, especially since there should be two groups doing them per moony period.

2

No Gobby, I'm talking about Finnian. But I had not noticed Grutfud. According to Shand's chart, Grutfud missed the odd ones, after which followed peaceful evenings. Good catch.

Say, how do you know who is supposed to kill when?

7

I don't know who is supposed to kill when; I am making assumptions based on past games, which I admit could be totally wrong. I am used to SKs NKing each moony period, and, if there are 2 teams of evildoers, one killing every even moony period and one killing every odd moony period.

There are too many inactive players, I can't even venture guesses on enough players to come up with numbers of who should be evil and who shouldn't that I have any confidence in....

Miyuki, I still think both Carmen and Finnian may be bad. I don't think Carmen's posts last moony period redeem her yet, but at least she's cited specific reasons for absence (field trips and doctor's appointments) and seems willing to play along a little bit.

I guess on reflection, part of me just wants to lynch Finnian because of his contrariness. That's not really fair of me, because it has no real bearing on his win conditions, and if I thought he was on our side I'd try to be patient with him. But if they're both evildoers, as I believe, it seems just as good a reason to choose him first as any.

And thanks for your answer, Izett. That clears things up.
2

Keep the highlighted portion of that post in mind:

Thanks Fane. I have been musing a bit on these three as well. There's just so little to go on. I agree that the timing of Dallon rejoining is pingy, but I think for now it's probably wisest to give him a chance to establish a thread presence while looking at candidates I have a better feel for.

I also agree that I would almost feel bad putting Lyel up for lynch because of the difficulties he's mentioned. If he's lying to hide baddieness then it's extremely poor form, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that's the case. However, if it is true I still have no idea whether he's good or bad. Same with Grutfud. I think these baddies have shown they're too powerful and too tricky to take a chance lynching someone we can't read (or slightly better, since baddies now outnumber us, but my point still stands).

What are people's thoughts on leading lynch candidates for tomorrow? I know Carmen has still been getting some attention, but who else do people think is on the chopping block, as it were.

Oh! And as a side note for the folks keeping tally at home, I believe Queran has now voted for 5 straight civs. 4 are confirmed and then 1 vote for me. Just sayin'.

Gobnait, I count 11 civvs and 7 baddies that we know of. What makes you think the baddies now outnumber us? WARNING: Still on my first cup of coffee so may be missing some obvious logic.

Also, I agree with your thoughts on Lyel, Dallon and Grutfud for today.

Bronwyn, you're right. I was counting both NK victims as civs and assuming the info that there are 3 unrevealed baddie teammates for the witch and one Indy is true. Your count is the correct official one, but my more speculative one puts it at 9-10, assuming the indy is civ-aligned.

This exchange is perhaps a slip, that Gobnait lets on she knows more than she is sharing with us?

As has been presented in this case, I believe the evidence against Gobnait Gingeruite is exceedingly concrete in nature and most certainly eyebrow-raising. Thank you for your time!

[Ned Flanders]

I have found it Miyuki in case you haven't.

I don't know if this has been asked, or made clear. If the magic word is used in a quote, does it also count as a vote for Rumpel to steal?

quoting does not add rumple votes. Only the original person who said the word has their vote changed.

Thanks, I had just found it, in the last place I looked, of course.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

Hi. can you expand a little on what you are getting at with Carmen? Are you suggesting you have reason to believe she is not who she says claimed/didn't claim she is? And, from my read, it didn't appear she was claiming Cinderella at all if that is what you were thinking. Was it?

[Golf]

Thanks for that imense post, Queran. You have been most helpful. I will go through it and give it some time to sink in before voting, for sure.

[Gunther]

Actually, Carmen, in my catch up read the role hints were the only thing that gave me the benefit of the doubt about you.

No role hint means no chance you are a good character to my way of thinking.

[Perd Hapley]

Thanks for that imense post, Queran. You have been most helpful. I will go through it and give it some time to sink in before voting, for sure.

Thanks, Queran. I wonder about that "slip" too. Quite a compelling argument. Any ideas on why the stony one would have you in his sights?

[Perd Hapley]

Actually, Carmen, in my catch up read the role hints were the only thing that gave me the benefit of the doubt about you.

No role hint means no chance you are a good character to my way of thinking.

Becasue of what?

[Young Lady]

The only one I can think of, Grutfud, is her initial panic after I brought her up as a suspect drove her to make the flawed case, and after that fell apart, she thought any wiff of backing entirely off would bring suspicion onto her.

[Phoebe Buffay]

So Carmen has pretty much said that wasn't a role hint at all now that she's been pressed about that? Considering the "role hint" was the only reason I backed off her yesterday, that puts her right back up there on my suspicion list.

Maybe she found people reading into that humorous, but letting us operate under the incorrect assumption isn't very helpful in the search for evil among us.

[Gunther]

Actually, Carmen, in my catch up read the role hints were the only thing that gave me the benefit of the doubt about you.

No role hint means no chance you are a good character to my way of thinking.

Becasue of what?

Because the lynch was redirected away from either her or Finnian, and Finnian was not a criminal. People stepped back from suspecting her because someone started aggressively pushing the role hint notion, and that's the only reason as far as I can see. If she adamantly denies hinting, the only thing that makes her look civ to me is gone.

[Saito]

The only one I can think of, Grutfud, is her initial panic after I brought her up as a suspect drove her to make the flawed case, and after that fell apart, she thought any wiff of backing entirely off would bring suspicion onto her.

But she said she thought it was funny! She didn't seem at all concerned that admitting there wasn't a hint is problematic. As others have said here, this knocks a big hole in her defense.

[Young Lady]

Bronwyn, I was addressing this post, sorry if that wasn't clear

Thanks for that imense post, Queran. You have been most helpful. I will go through it and give it some time to sink in before voting, for sure.

Thanks, Queran. I wonder about that "slip" too. Quite a compelling argument. Any ideas on why the stony one would have you in his sights?

[Perd Hapley]

I just don't know about Carmen. I have admittedly role hinted but then denied I've done it. Let thee who is without sin cast the first stone.

Further, again, I don't think she was hinting Cinderelly. I think she was hinting the Prince despite what she is saying now.

[Perd Hapley]

The only one I can think of, Grutfud, is her initial panic after I brought her up as a suspect drove her to make the flawed case, and after that fell apart, she thought any wiff of backing entirely off would bring suspicion onto her.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Young Lady]

In any case, I eagerly await her response.

[Ned Flanders]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

Hi. can you expand a little on what you are getting at with Carmen? Are you suggesting you have reason to believe she is not who she says claimed/didn't claim she is? And, from my read, it didn't appear she was claiming Cinderella at all if that is what you were thinking. Was it?

If you just recently had to read the entire thread, then I will cut you some slack there. Are you one of the replacements?

If not, I wonder how you missed all the talk on Carmen. Starting with Bronwyn and someone else (forgot who) pointing out that she made a quick catch on day 1, regarding someone who voted for someone not at the correct table, but then acted like she wasn't involved in the game at all, couldn't keep up, etc. It was pointed out because most everyone was still having trouble just remembering all the names, let alone which table to vote for.

However, she managed to continue sounding sufficiently confused during the next day and night, enough to create doubt in a few players. At least 2 of us commented that she sounded like she could be new. I noticed what could have been role hints, not claims, and posted as much as I could about them, to get attention to it and get feedback from other players. I don't want to lynch someone who may be new, and trying to be found by her prince, but at the same time, I don't want to allow a baddie to hoodwink anyone.

She survived 2 lynches, and although, a few people made posts about it being a deflection of some kind, it could very easily have been Rumpel's team behind that.

Now, her posts suddenly sound like a different person.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

Hi. can you expand a little on what you are getting at with Carmen? Are you suggesting you have reason to believe she is not who she says claimed/didn't claim she is? And, from my read, it didn't appear she was claiming Cinderella at all if that is what you were thinking. Was it?

If you just recently had to read the entire thread, then I will cut you some slack there. Are you one of the replacements?

If not, I wonder how you missed all the talk on Carmen. Starting with Bronwyn and someone else (forgot who) pointing out that she made a quick catch on day 1, regarding someone who voted for someone not at the correct table, but then acted like she wasn't involved in the game at all, couldn't keep up, etc. It was pointed out because most everyone was still having trouble just remembering all the names, let alone which table to vote for.

However, she managed to continue sounding sufficiently confused during the next day and night, enough to create doubt in a few players. At least 2 of us commented that she sounded like she could be new. I noticed what could have been role hints, not claims, and posted as much as I could about them, to get attention to it and get feedback from other players. I don't want to lynch someone who may be new, and trying to be found by her prince, but at the same time, I don't want to allow a baddie to hoodwink anyone.

She survived 2 lynches, and although, a few people made posts about it being a deflection of some kind, it could very easily have been Rumpel's team behind that.

Now, her posts suddenly sound like a different person.

Is she a replacement?

And, yes, I just replaced in. I wasn't really napping.

[Golf]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

Hi. can you expand a little on what you are getting at with Carmen? Are you suggesting you have reason to believe she is not who she says claimed/didn't claim she is? And, from my read, it didn't appear she was claiming Cinderella at all if that is what you were thinking. Was it?

If you just recently had to read the entire thread, then I will cut you some slack there. Are you one of the replacements?

If not, I wonder how you missed all the talk on Carmen. Starting with Bronwyn and someone else (forgot who) pointing out that she made a quick catch on day 1, regarding someone who voted for someone not at the correct table, but then acted like she wasn't involved in the game at all, couldn't keep up, etc. It was pointed out because most everyone was still having trouble just remembering all the names, let alone which table to vote for.

However, she managed to continue sounding sufficiently confused during the next day and night, enough to create doubt in a few players. At least 2 of us commented that she sounded like she could be new. I noticed what could have been role hints, not claims, and posted as much as I could about them, to get attention to it and get feedback from other players. I don't want to lynch someone who may be new, and trying to be found by her prince, but at the same time, I don't want to allow a baddie to hoodwink anyone.

She survived 2 lynches, and although, a few people made posts about it being a deflection of some kind, it could very easily have been Rumpel's team behind that.

Now, her posts suddenly sound like a different person.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on Carmen as well. The lynch dodging evidence is not really useful, in my opinion, since Rumpy would switch the lynch whenever he got the chance regardless of whether the person was civ or bad, but the other behavioral points strike me as very odd.

You are very kind, Miyuki, to cut Grutfud 2 some slack.

[Young Lady]

Another thing I didn't mention in my case post (because of time and space) Is Gob's more recent exchange, which I'll quote here:

RIPIYWG Bac and Etain. I'm pretty sure Bac was, and was starting to lean that way on Etain.

My favorite Grimm character my be the Big Bad Wolf. "The better to eat you with" is one of the all-time great bad guy lines. And his plan, while nonsensical, is sort of brilliant.

Gobsuit, I saw where Queran says he's going to present a case on you today so we can see why he thinks you're suspicious. Will you also layout for us why you are suspicious of him?

I can do this if people want. I have reservations. First, I likely die either way. Either folks believe him and I "win the popularity contest" or he flips bad, everyoje believes I'm civ, and it gets me NKed. Second, why ask me to write a super long and detailed case now, right after Rumplestiltskin comes back into play, after we've had 3 rl sunny periods without him? That super pings me.

That said, if people are set on deciding between the two of us and too lazy or busy to read up themselves, I'll go for it. Anyone else have input on this?

This does not sound like very civvie friendly behavior to me. At the least, it's overly defensive and reactionary to imply that Bronwyn was trying to get you to say the secret word by asking you to present a rebuttal to my impending case. At the most, it reads as a sort of "I really don't ACTUALLY have a case, but if people are too lazy to read the thread themselves I *guess* I could whip one up..."

[Phoebe Buffay]

I'm going to try not to quote today, since we don't know if magic words count when used in quotes, but I will say this to Carmen. Thank you, I do understand what you're saying about not wanting to reveal who you are in rl. But I have to say, a simple 'I did not role hint' would have been nice. And I read back, you had ample opportunity to say that at some point.

This is not good.

Hi. can you expand a little on what you are getting at with Carmen? Are you suggesting you have reason to believe she is not who she says claimed/didn't claim she is? And, from my read, it didn't appear she was claiming Cinderella at all if that is what you were thinking. Was it?

If you just recently had to read the entire thread, then I will cut you some slack there. Are you one of the replacements?

If not, I wonder how you missed all the talk on Carmen. Starting with Bronwyn and someone else (forgot who) pointing out that she made a quick catch on day 1, regarding someone who voted for someone not at the correct table, but then acted like she wasn't involved in the game at all, couldn't keep up, etc. It was pointed out because most everyone was still having trouble just remembering all the names, let alone which table to vote for.

However, she managed to continue sounding sufficiently confused during the next day and night, enough to create doubt in a few players. At least 2 of us commented that she sounded like she could be new. I noticed what could have been role hints, not claims, and posted as much as I could about them, to get attention to it and get feedback from other players. I don't want to lynch someone who may be new, and trying to be found by her prince, but at the same time, I don't want to allow a baddie to hoodwink anyone.

She survived 2 lynches, and although, a few people made posts about it being a deflection of some kind, it could very easily have been Rumpel's team behind that.

Now, her posts suddenly sound like a different person.

This very nicely sums up my thoughts about Carmen.

[Saito]

Queran, I did misunderstand you, thank you for pointing it out. But suffice it to say Carmen's latest just supports my original views.

[Kent Brockman]

I have had a tough two man-days. But I am current now, and I want to make a bold counter-assessment:

If Carmen is bad, then she is bad at being bad. Consider:

1. She set herself up by voting Caillic on Day 1 when she could have voted anyone else and evaded any immediate scrutiny. And she actually gave a reason for her vote (one that I still find valid). Were she evil, she could have let Jorhan die, knowing Jorhan was innocent, and avoided suspicion.
2. Thus she became a part of the "Who was saving Jorhan?" issue that quickly led to Jorhan's death (and a damned if you do/don't scenario I have already expressed).
3. She evaded a lynch. That doesn't look good, I admit. But Finnian dodged one too, and we lynched him. And that was no good either.
4. People stopped suspecting Carmen because of "role hinting." I myself didn't see what others were seeing until much later. But then I'm not one to read into things. I also enjoy a mighty Shiraz.
5. Carmen later admitted to no role hinting and just having fun. I actually believe her. But if Carmen were foe, then why spoil a good thing by answering "Cinderella" and talking about having fun? Why throw yourself back into the spotlight?

It makes no sense to me. And I realize defending someone is always a perilous affair, but I must speak my mind. We cannot afford blowing it again.

[Gunther]

The third one, evading a lynch, condemns her more than not; to my mind, it was either her or it was Finnian. It was not Finnian.

How does #4 exonerate her? Not seeing it. Especially since she herself vehemently denies role hinting.

The rest of your reasons are pretty much WIFOM. Any argument for or against a person being good/bad that begins with "why would" is simply a circular argument, that can be argued either way successfully or not based on the position and skills of the arguer.

The simple and elegant answer is that the lynch appeared to be switched from Carmen because it was switched from her. And simple & elegant pwns WIFOM in my book.

I was hoping to read Gobnait & Querans theses one after another, but alas that won't be happening. I am going to read Queran tonight after dinner. The fact that Gobnait put it off after asking whether he should do it at all perplexes me.

But it should be a ripping good read from both sides.

[Kent Brockman]

The third one, evading a lynch, condemns her more than not; to my mind, it was either her or it was Finnian. It was not Finnian.

It was not her or Finnian. It was her or Finnian or anybody. That's why Bac got the lynch. Yes, someone with zero votes.

viewtopic.php?p=20189#p20189

This is important to understand.

[Gunther]

I do understand it, but I beg to differ. its all supposition.

[Gunther]

I think role hints are lame, and I don't think she was making any. I did initially, but she says no, no longer is posting, and Carmen apologists are posting,

I intend to wait for Gobnaits post. Were I to vote now, it would be for Carmen.

[Operator]

Very interesting. Happy to still be alive . I'm voting Rune. Maybe a message will be revealed.

It was this (the second role hint, the first was "glass slippers") that removed all doubt from my mind that Carmen was hinting at her role, and quite deliberately too. I don't know if I buy the "I was being funny" argument. I'm not able to wrap my brain around why -- if she is a civvie -- Carmen would let the town think her role hints were genuine, if she didn't intend them to be. In my opinion, "you would have found me suspicious if I had told you" defense doesn't work if you are a townie. The real Prince Charming would have been very tempted to waste one search, and new or old to the game, you don't confuse a fellow townie like that.

I also agree with Miyuki that Carmen sounds like a different person, and wonder if there has been a replacement.

[Ned Flanders]

About the only nice thing I can say about Carmen is that she has nice wings.

Now wait, I seem to recall you saying that my fun-loving spirit and lightheartedness does me credit. I should have come out with that from the beginning. I was just afraid of Rumple and saying too much.

What exactly do you have against me? Yeah, I survived a lynch. Obviously Rumple was trying to cause confusion and was successful. What else?

Linki with Miyaki: I was quite confused about the whole role hinting thing at first. I didn't have a clue what Bac was talking about. I didn't get it until later when someone else clarified (don't remember who). I thought it was hilarious that you all read into it so much, sorry it was. I was sooo so busy at the time when I finally understood, however, and did not refute it. I apologize. I just thought it was too hilarious. But, even if I did say, "Hey, no role hinting is going on here" I bet you all would just have said.. "See! She's BAD!" Once under suspicion, it doesn't matter what you do, it is CRAZY difficult to redeem yourself.

Carmen, what you say here could be straight up truth, but in my experience in past games, when I've been suspected as bad, but I'm actually a townie, I frankly breathe a sigh of relief when someone steps forward and says something in one of my posts gives them pause. If something is brought up that saves me from the lynch, I'm just relieved, whether my post was intended in the way it gets interpreted or not. If I'm bad, and someone defends me or saves me, I'm also relieved but I do find it funny. I just don't know what to make of you.

linkitis- Shand, I was just going there, but since you already did-

[Spooky Ghost]

Wow, Queran... like whoever else said it above, I'd like to give all that a chance to sink in. But very thoughtfully written, that's for sure.

Carmen's recent posts do not sit well with me either. So I'd also be fine with adding her back towards the top of the suspect list.

I do, however, look forward to hearing back from Gob about the case posted... and about Gob's case on Queran.