Day 12 ~ 2015 Game of Champions

[MacDougall]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

[Golden]

The issue with declaring which of these hypothetical two main wagons you would vote for, Golden, is that it rarely helps the one declaring intent to vote. If they get lynched and flip scum then it was "free credit" because they didn't vote for the scum. If they get lynched and flip civ then it was "distancing from a mislynch" because they appeared flip-floppy. If that player isn't lynched it's almost worse, since there's no conclusion to this "I'd rather X be dead than Y" preference. My experiences show that scum hiding on a main wagon usually have worse reasoning than scum hiding on off wagons, as they can bandwagon and literally say "I agree with X's statements" without risking genuine interaction.

The advantage of forcing them to say IS that it rarely helps them. It means they aren't doing it for themselves, they are doing it for the record. Scum then can't avoid making some form of statement about teammates when they have heat. Ultimately, though, it all comes down to how genuine you believe someone to be in their reads, regardless of what those reads actually are.

So you'd prefer every off-wagon voter to, whether directly asked or not, give information about which of the main wagons they'd rather see succeed? The issue I have with that is that you're forcing opinions from people. If a player is indecisive or split on the main wagons then pulling an opinion from them will inevitably cause a contradiction. When that player happens to be scum all is right in the world, however if that player is a townie then it creates a rabbit hole out of a mole hill, so to speak.

Mac the number of main wagons is irrelevant in this discussion, as far as I can tell. If there are 5 wagons with the same number of votes then the conversation would be the same.

Giving reasons why you are indecisive is still information. In respect of townies, all I'd ask is that they be honest about their opinions. This does not need to cause a contradiction (not that contradictions are inherently scum-tells, either).

I don't think the point here is that they 'give information whether they are asked or not'. I think the point is that I do think voting off-wagon is justifiable, but people should provide their justifications.

For instance, lets say right now my top two suspects were Rico and, lets say JJJ for the sake of argument (I'm reading JJJ as civ in actuality, but I choose him because I don't think he is actually going to take any votes, especially given he is cursed). Now, if given the choice between voting one of the two, wouldn't my vote be more impactful on rico, given rico might be lynched, rather than off-wagon on JJ, even though it would be a legitimate suspicion? As a civ, isn't my interest in choosing my suspect that is more likely to be lynched?

For me, a civilian voting off-wagon (at least, after the point at which the wagons have formed) is effectively a civilian saying they don't suspect either of the wagon candidates. Or at least not enough to give them a vote. Otherwise they'd vote on the wagon. I don't think it is a big leap from there to say why.

Linki @Mac - I'm not ignoring today's situation, but I coined the '2 major wagon' thing and that is because we are talking about a matter of principle and its much easier to talk about in the simplest theoretical form. It's not actually a discussion about today's lynch situation. But if Fuzz was ignoring one, I doubt it would be llama, eh, given he's voted that way?

[Marmot]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Ok.

[MacDougall]

Linki @Mac - I'm not ignoring today's situation, but I coined the '2 major wagon' thing and that is because we are talking about a matter of principle and its much easier to talk about in the simplest theoretical form. It's not actually a discussion about today's lynch situation. But if Fuzz was ignoring one, I doubt it would be llama, eh, given he's voted that way?

Okay I didn't realise your "2 major wagons" thing was a concept, I took it in the context of current situations. Tthough I feel like the Llama case is the one that's flying under the radar though given that there has been far more discussion around Lorab's wagon and they have the same number of votes on them.

[Marmot]

How many baddies do you think there are Mac?

[Golden]

Linki @Mac - I'm not ignoring today's situation, but I coined the '2 major wagon' thing and that is because we are talking about a matter of principle and its much easier to talk about in the simplest theoretical form. It's not actually a discussion about today's lynch situation. But if Fuzz was ignoring one, I doubt it would be llama, eh, given he's voted that way?

Okay I didn't realise your "2 major wagons" thing was a concept, I took it in the context of current situations. Tthough I feel like the Llama case is the one that's flying under the radar though given that there has been far more discussion around Lorab's wagon and they have the same number of votes on them.

If I had been talking about it as the game situation, I would be ignoring llama. It's not that I don't give it credence, but of those who haven't committed to voting or even of those who have voted but might consider changing their votes, I feel like LoRab is far more mentioned as a candidate than llama. My impression only, no scientific analysis.

[MacDougall]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Ok.

I would encourage you in this situation to not bother trying to force a case out of this ping because you will find absolutely nothing to support it beyond your own faulty intuition.

[Golden]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

[Golden]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Ok.

I would encourage you in this situation to not bother trying to force a case out of this ping because you will find absolutely nothing to support it beyond your own faulty intuition.

And also because it is not the truth???

[Marmot]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Ok.

I would encourage you in this situation to not bother trying to force a case out of this ping because you will find absolutely nothing to support it beyond your own faulty intuition.

I wasn't trying to force a case. That's just how I feel.

[Black Rock]

How many baddies do you think there are Mac?

Can I hazard a guess? 8. 4 and 4. Or 7 if one big team. Probably a SK too.

I wish I knew what role(s) were taken from my game.

[MacDougall]

How many baddies do you think there are Mac?

Depends how many teams there are. If there is 1 team there's probably 5 or 6 baddies and a shit ton of independents. Unlikely.

If there are 2 teams then there are probably 2 teams of 5. So 10 Mafia. Perhaps 2 teams of 4 if there are lots of independents.

Perhaps even 3 teams of 4?

Hard to say. I hadn't really thought much about it until now. What's the purpose of the question?

[MacDougall]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Ok.

I would encourage you in this situation to not bother trying to force a case out of this ping because you will find absolutely nothing to support it beyond your own faulty intuition.

And also because it is not the truth???

Yes, that is the underlying meaning of my comment. He will find nothing to support it beyond his own faulty intuition because indeed it is not the case...

[Marmot]

How many baddies do you think there are Mac?

Depends how many teams there are. If there is 1 team there's probably 5 or 6 baddies and a shit ton of independents. Unlikely.

If there are 2 teams then there are probably 2 teams of 5. So 10 Mafia. Perhaps 2 teams of 4 if there are lots of independents.

Perhaps even 3 teams of 4?

Hard to say. I hadn't really thought much about it until now. What's the purpose of the question?

Agree with the first.

If the second is true, I think 4 each is more probable. Unless the civvie roles are uber-powered (and supported by Indies).

3 teams of 4? Now that's just silly. :P Right?

[RadicalFuzz]

"The two of you repeatedly said 2 major wagons"

hypothetical two main wagons...

Yep, that's both repeatedly and convincgly the phrase "2 major wagons."

Mac what's your avatar from? MTG?

Golden I think we're arguing the downsides to two extremes here. I'm saying it could produce poor results and you're saying it will prevent scum from sliding under the radar. If that's correct, then my stance is somewhere in the middle of those two. If not then I've misunderstood somewhere along the line and I apologize.

Marsh if we're teammates in a bad kind of way, but you're scum, wouldn't that make us teammates in a good kind of way?

[MacDougall]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Ok.

I would encourage you in this situation to not bother trying to force a case out of this ping because you will find absolutely nothing to support it beyond your own faulty intuition.

I wasn't trying to force a case. That's just how I feel.

I wasn't saying you were, I was encouraging you not to bother trying to look for evidence where there is bound to be none.

[Marmot]

How many baddies do you think there are Mac?

Can I hazard a guess? 8. 4 and 4. Or 7 if one big team. Probably a SK too.

I wish I knew what role(s) were taken from my game.

I would be inclined to agree with you.

Linki: That's a big IF RadicalFuzz, and not inherently true. The number of teams is mysterious.

[Boomslang]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Oh, you mean like you said "Boomslang is bad. Discuss." earlier on a gut ping?

[RadicalFuzz]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

[MacDougall]

How many baddies do you think there are Mac?

Depends how many teams there are. If there is 1 team there's probably 5 or 6 baddies and a shit ton of independents. Unlikely.

If there are 2 teams then there are probably 2 teams of 5. So 10 Mafia. Perhaps 2 teams of 4 if there are lots of independents.

Perhaps even 3 teams of 4?

Hard to say. I hadn't really thought much about it until now. What's the purpose of the question?

Agree with the first.

If the second is true, I think 4 each is more probable. Unless the civvie roles are uber-powered (and supported by Indies).

3 teams of 4? Now that's just silly. :P Right?

Yes it is very unlikely.

"The two of you repeatedly said 2 major wagons"

hypothetical two main wagons...

Yep, that's both repeatedly and convincgly the phrase "2 major wagons."

Mac what's your avatar from? MTG?

Golden I think we're arguing the downsides to two extremes here. I'm saying it could produce poor results and you're saying it will prevent scum from sliding under the radar. If that's correct, then my stance is somewhere in the middle of those two. If not then I've misunderstood somewhere along the line and I apologize.

Marsh if we're teammates in a bad kind of way, but you're scum, wouldn't that make us teammates in a good kind of way?

I am sure that you both referenced 2 cases more than once. At least that was what I gleaned from reading your posts the first time. If I am wrong I apologise, but regardless of that fact it still came across like you were stating that there are 2 wagons that are relevant and not that there are in fact 3. Golden cleared up the misunderstanding already anyway and I am not getting much out of the subject.

I found it on Deviant Art. It's pretty neat huh!

[MacDougall]

Mac and Fuzz are teammates (in a bad kind of way).

Please don't make matter of fact statements like this without making a case or I will make your experience in this game very unpleasant.

Oh, you mean like you said "Boomslang is bad. Discuss." earlier on a gut ping?

I didn't do it to me. I don't like it when people do it to me. I have a habit of defending myself from baseless accusations. Feel free to do the same.

[Marmot]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

That goes without saying.

Speaking of which, it amazes me that Golden was willing to give you such high credibility already.

[MacDougall]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

That goes without saying.

Speaking of which, it amazes me that Golden was willing to give you such high credibility already.

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

[Marmot]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

That goes without saying.

Speaking of which, it amazes me that Golden was willing to give you such high credibility already.

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

This is not a testament to his alignment though.

[RadicalFuzz]

I might've not said hypothetical or theoretical when referring to "2 wagons" in my short conversation with Golden, or maybe he didn't, mostly irrelevant and we've cleared up the confusion.

Yeah, that in addition to his compliments unnerve me. The entire chain of events feels like:
"Fuzz I like how you think"
"Fuzz engage me in this conversation"
"Fuzz is my strongest town read, I wanted to get his perspective to understand where he's coming from"

Now, I love my name being thrown around like hot potato, that's not the issue, but it feels like an accelerated process. Even taking into account the fact that "strongest town read" is a fickle thing on Day 1 this trust Golden has built feels artificially quickened, if that makes sense.

[MacDougall]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

That goes without saying.

Speaking of which, it amazes me that Golden was willing to give you such high credibility already.

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

This is not a testament to his alignment though.

I haven't seen scum Golden in any game I played in. I was dead by the time he was flipped in Reborn. I have not witnessed scum behaviour from Golden in context so I can't say. I can say that he does it as a civilian though. He complimented me heavily in Dune when I was incorrectly suspicious of him.

[Golden]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

1) there are 24 hours to go, so it's hardly time to be talking about where the major wagons in this lynch are... if I think your vote is to be criticised, I'll wait until I see where the wagons actually are and your vote is at the end of the day
2) Just because someone does something scum might do, does not mean that particular thing is the only thing I take into account when making a read. If I felt like you were deliberately skirting creating any opinions on the main candidates by voting off-wagon, then my opinion of you would probably start to fall from 'top town read', but it wouldn't immediately send you to 'worst scum read', either.

[RadicalFuzz]

So he compliments people with the intent to legitimately compliment them? That bugs me, one of my pet peeves is feeling manipulated when people say nice things about me. That's why I prefer people to suspect me, I know where their mindset is.

[Golden]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

That goes without saying.

Speaking of which, it amazes me that Golden was willing to give you such high credibility already.

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

This is not a testament to his alignment though.

It amazes you that I'd do it, even though you know it is something I do regularly enough that you can say it isn't testament to my alignment?

[MacDougall]

So he compliments people with the intent to legitimately compliment them? That bugs me, one of my pet peeves is feeling manipulated when people say nice things about me. That's why I prefer people to suspect me, I know where their mindset is.

You prefer people to suspect you as civ, mafia or both?

[RadicalFuzz]

As both. It's much more entertaining and productive to have people out for my head. When it's Fuzz versus the world I know what side everyone else is on, but when some people think I'm clean and some don't life gets complex.

[MacDougall]

Maybe play less solid then.

[Golden]

So he compliments people with the intent to legitimately compliment them? That bugs me, one of my pet peeves is feeling manipulated when people say nice things about me. That's why I prefer people to suspect me, I know where their mindset is.

I have told you exactly where my mindset is. It's up to you to choose whether to 'know it' or not.

Choosing only to trust my mindset if I'm suspicious of you is flawed. It just means that I know my best move when bad is to be suspicious of you. It wouldn't make my suspicious mindset genuine.

I'll give my reads whatever they are. I don't really care if it makes you uncomfortable that I trust you. And, as Mac's basically implied, I don't even care if it gets me suspected. I think part of Mac's reason for suspecting me in that game may have also been that he was concerned I was being manipulative.

There are lots of reasons you are my top town read, including:

1) The way a number of people jumped on you for poor reasons, at least some of which I think is likely from baddies.
2) The way you called that out when it just got dropped (completely right, and although I still haven't analysed who those people were I'm waiting to find out...)
3) The way you have added your own content even when it is going against popular opinion without any reason to do so.
4) The way you have handled Dr Wilgy... unflappable in the face of meaningless suspicion.

[MacDougall]

Fuzz can you think of any other times where you have been incorrectly read as being in teams with other players? I feel like I can see where Metalmarsh's viewpoint is coming from after our recent couple of interactions. You have a way of encouraging me to question you in ways that look fake. It's kind of bizarre. Like you are leaving half your thoughts elsewhere but do so in a way that makes you not look suspicious. So my questions look pointed but passive at the same time.

[Golden]

I would encourage you in this situation to not bother trying to force a case out of this ping because you will find absolutely nothing to support it beyond your own faulty intuition.

Fuzz can you think of any other times where you have been incorrectly read as being in teams with other players? I feel like I can see where Metalmarsh's viewpoint is coming from after our recent couple of interactions.

[Elohcin]

This game is moving way too fast for me.

[Marmot]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

That goes without saying.

Speaking of which, it amazes me that Golden was willing to give you such high credibility already.

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

This is not a testament to his alignment though.

It amazes you that I'd do it, even though you know it is something I do regularly enough that you can say it isn't testament to my alignment?

If you do it regularly enough, how does it determined what your alignment is?

[Marmot]

This game is moving way too fast for me.

Wir fahr'n fahr'n fahr'n auf der Autobahn.

[RadicalFuzz]

Not off the top of my head Mac. I'm sure it's been brought up before but I don't remember the circumstances.

Also I hate this last page. Reasonable words and people thinking I'm a coolio. We'll never talk of it again.

[Golden]

But yeah, I was talking in the theoretical because I am in particular one of those who would criticise people voting off wagon without much explanation, and so I think talking through Fuzz's perspective is helpful for me to understand him.

Fuzz is my strongest town read right now.

Explain something to me. How can I, with my reasoning for voting Llama literally attributed to "I'm following the guy who can only speak in smileys," be your strongest town read when in the same post you claim you would criticize people voting off wagon without much explanation?

Fair enough Marsh. You realize, then, that if we're going to operate on the possibility of separate scum teams that catching scum provides very little credibility, correct?

That goes without saying.

Speaking of which, it amazes me that Golden was willing to give you such high credibility already.

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

This is not a testament to his alignment though.

It amazes you that I'd do it, even though you know it is something I do regularly enough that you can say it isn't testament to my alignment?

If you do it regularly enough, how does it determined what your alignment is?

I'm not saying it does determine what my alignment is.

My point is, if you know that it isn't, you must have seen me do it as both alignments. So why does it amaze you that I did it here?

[Long Con]

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

To me, saying "This is not a testament to his alignment though" means that you could be sensing Civilian intent as a Civvie or a baddie, so we shouldn't assume you are Civ because of it.

[Long Con]

Fuzz, I keep looking at Mac's avatar and thinking that it's almost a Raymond Swanland piece... not quite, but possibly inspired by him.

[Long Con]

When Golden senses civilian intent and quality play Golden is not feint with praise. This is normal for him.

To me, saying "This is not a testament to his alignment though" means that you could be sensing Civilian intent as a Civvie or a baddie, so we shouldn't assume you are Civ because of it.

To clarify, I don't think one needs to have witnessed you doing it as both alignments to say that. It's more of a cautionary statement to not automatically assume it means a Civ read for you.

[RadicalFuzz]

Raymond Swanland is so ridiculously good. His creatures feel so utterly destructive, favorite has to be Wurmcoil Engine

[MacDougall]

MTG nerds! I haven't played in a long time. Miss it.

[MacDougall]

I unabashedly stole the pic from here

http://sandara.deviantart.com/art/Tiger-356857707

[Long Con]

I unabashedly stole the pic from here

http://sandara.deviantart.com/art/Tiger-356857707

Holy crap, Mac! Her stuff is so good! So Swanland! I am a huge fan of his stuff. I do play MTG, and I made a custom playmat design for myself out of Swanland images. Please have a look here, the first image is my playmat. As you can see, Wurmcoil is included prominently. The other images are playmats I have designed for people by request, in exchange for them mailing me cards.

[MacDougall]

I unabashedly stole the pic from here

http://sandara.deviantart.com/art/Tiger-356857707

Holy crap, Mac! Her stuff is so good! So Swanland! I am a huge fan of his stuff. I do play MTG, and I made a custom playmat design for myself out of Swanland images. Please have a look here, the first image is my playmat. As you can see, Wurmcoil is included prominently. The other images are playmats I have designed for people by request, in exchange for them mailing me cards.

Really cool. I love the Jace one.

[DrWilgy]

What format you play LC?

[Turnip Head]

This is not the 2015 Game of Nerds

But I love nerds, and this thread is already unreadable as is, and I'm drunk, so carry on