Day 12 ~ 2015 Game of Champions

[Black Rock]

I think you are on zebra's team.

I think you're a crackpot.

I think, especially in a Champions Game, a baddie curser role on the first night would not target someone who they want to silence.

Why does it matter at all that this is a champions game? That's irrelevant.

I believe that zebra targeted her teammate JJJ with the curse, because they saw an opportunity to frame Llama.

That makes no sense. First of all, if that's the strategy then the person being emoji'd has no viable method to pursue that framejob. I couldn't bloody talk! Second, Zebra made no effort herself to pursue that end, and she even pooh-poohed the notion that llama was responsible. Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words. People did end up voting for llama, but many of them didn't actually give a reason why. They just did it.

JJJ was very sure that Llama was the one that cursed him.

I absolutely was not "very sure" llama was the one that cursed me. You've made that up. I literally said something else when Zebra herself asked me post-curse:

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

I was a threat to nobody on Night 0, being so vocally detached and lazy as I was. I made exactly one case against someone that was remotely substantive, that being llama. Llama addressed some posts in the general vicinity of that case, but never responded to anything I said. At any point. The next day I was posting in emoticons. Maybe there's a connection. Even if not, his ignorance of me is clearly deliberate at this point and I don't think town llama has any reason to ignore me. I've done nothing to insult him in any prior game, and I have not been a significant part of this game's torrent pace -- so I haven't annoyed him either. All I've done is cast suspicion upon him, both in the form of Night 0 text and Day 1 emojis.

He hasn't given me the time of day. I think he should become dead as soon as possible.

I believe they would try to pull a frame-up job.

Has he even considered that it might be an attempt to frame Llama?

Sure I have. It's not a theory I've viewed as the best theory because llama was so difficult to engage with at all -- multiple long phases of complete ignorance of everything I posted (text or emoji). It's a possibility. So is the idea that llama is on Zebra's team and she used her ability against someone threatening him. That's not at all farfetched.

It's also possible that Zebra cursed me because she could tell I didn't feel like dealing with Mafia and it'd be a fun break from the norm. If that's the case, thanks Zebra. It was fun.

I thought LC's opinion was interesting. This response just made me think he was right.

[Golden]

No wonder Zebra was having the most fun observing my emoji frustration. :P

Should be some great opportunities for finding her team mates. She was highly vocal.

Having said that, as I noted yesterday, when I isoed her I found very little, despite a high post count. A lot of sparring with rico, but not a whole lot of interaction beyond that. Of course, that was up to the point in time at which I did the iso.

I had come in here intending to make zebra my first suspect today, so I need to refocus I guess.

I must have missed where you suspected her before.

I didn't in so many words. I had said she was slightly bad if I made a rainbow list. But it was some of that stuff coming from her iso, plus her behaviour in that last little time leading up to the nightkill. And when I say 'first suspect', I don't mean full-on golden attack. I just mean that was where I was intending to start my day in terms of effort and providing my opinion.

[Golden]

*alarm* BR defending LC alert!

In all seriousness though, my thoughts on BR is that she has been way more active than usual, and I've found her contributions generally positive, helpful and unique. I have a moderate town read based on the content. I'm not sure if there is anything to be read into the frequency.

I do genuinely find her defending LC slightly disconcerting, though. Not just because I am slightly suspicious of LC, but also because I think I remember BR saying something like she prefers to stay away from opinions about LC's affiliation. BR, what is it about LC that you think warrants you giving an opinion?

I think I could probably do a rainbow now if I put my mind to it. DH will love that.

[Black Rock]

I think you are on zebra's team.

I think you're a crackpot.

I think, especially in a Champions Game, a baddie curser role on the first night would not target someone who they want to silence.

Why does it matter at all that this is a champions game? That's irrelevant.

I believe that zebra targeted her teammate JJJ with the curse, because they saw an opportunity to frame Llama.

That makes no sense. First of all, if that's the strategy then the person being emoji'd has no viable method to pursue that framejob. I couldn't bloody talk! Second, Zebra made no effort herself to pursue that end, and she even pooh-poohed the notion that llama was responsible. Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words. People did end up voting for llama, but many of them didn't actually give a reason why. They just did it.

JJJ was very sure that Llama was the one that cursed him.

I absolutely was not "very sure" llama was the one that cursed me. You've made that up. I literally said something else when Zebra herself asked me post-curse:

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

I was a threat to nobody on Night 0, being so vocally detached and lazy as I was. I made exactly one case against someone that was remotely substantive, that being llama. Llama addressed some posts in the general vicinity of that case, but never responded to anything I said. At any point. The next day I was posting in emoticons. Maybe there's a connection. Even if not, his ignorance of me is clearly deliberate at this point and I don't think town llama has any reason to ignore me. I've done nothing to insult him in any prior game, and I have not been a significant part of this game's torrent pace -- so I haven't annoyed him either. All I've done is cast suspicion upon him, both in the form of Night 0 text and Day 1 emojis.

He hasn't given me the time of day. I think he should become dead as soon as possible.

I believe they would try to pull a frame-up job.

Has he even considered that it might be an attempt to frame Llama?

Sure I have. It's not a theory I've viewed as the best theory because llama was so difficult to engage with at all -- multiple long phases of complete ignorance of everything I posted (text or emoji). It's a possibility. So is the idea that llama is on Zebra's team and she used her ability against someone threatening him. That's not at all farfetched.

It's also possible that Zebra cursed me because she could tell I didn't feel like dealing with Mafia and it'd be a fun break from the norm. If that's the case, thanks Zebra. It was fun.

I thought LC's opinion was interesting. This response just made me think he was right.

To be more specific

calling him a crack pot really attempts to invalidate what he is saying.

So you say you didn't say you were exactly sure (hmmm..) and stated so to Zebra (of all players) but your exact words were "I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates." Problem with that whole process of thinking is that LC DIDN't make that all up, you made it very clear to the thread and it seems you are back tracking now that we all know Zebra cursed you.

[Black Rock]

*alarm* BR defending LC alert!

In all seriousness though, my thoughts on BR is that she has been way more active than usual, and I've found her contributions generally positive, helpful and unique. I have a moderate town read based on the content. I'm not sure if there is anything to be read into the frequency.

I do genuinely find her defending LC slightly disconcerting, though. Not just because I am slightly suspicious of LC, but also because I think I remember BR saying something like she prefers to stay away from opinions about LC's affiliation. BR, what is it about LC that you think warrants you giving an opinion?

I think I could probably do a rainbow now if I put my mind to it. DH will love that.

That is not all together true. I'm not defending LC. I (at this point of my catch up) didn't think he needed defending. I'm agreeing, and disagreeing with players. Quite different. I hate that if I agree on an opinion LC shares it gets chalked up to BR defending her husband. I think in my 7 years of playing that we have proven otherwise.

[Black Rock]

Well damn. I have gotten caught up in posts all over the damn thread and don't remember which page I was on. It is almost 230am, time for bed. I will back tomorrow.

[Golden]

JJ also called the theory crackpot when HB brought it up (or similar words). I do find it jarring that JJ is so dismissive of that theory. I also said to HB when he raised the theory that it actually does have merit as a theory.

But I find LC's approach to the case shady as well. He is making a lot of very firm statements that, in my opinion, push the theory further than it can realistically go without a lot of evidence.

I mean, from my perspective, if zebra and JJ are teammates and zebra cursed him, it doesn't take some grand plan about things you don't want to do tonight or do want to do tonight etc. It would be, very simply, about giving JJ a posting break and some town cred.

@BR - ok. I'm happy with that answer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not critical of you defending LC or chalking it up to you being married... I just know that when you do it means something, so wanted to hear where your head is at.

[Long Con]

Hello Wilgy my friend! Here's my analysis of your sig analysis.

So... First eye catch! the post that mentions Zebra from Sig happens to have way more smileys than what I'm used to from Sig. I know he splashes maybe one smiley into a post here and there, but this just feels unnatural to Sig. His reactions to Zebra seems non-committal, kinda there just to be there. I find it odd that his concern was raised, but he doesn't remember those concerns.

The Smiley thing isn't something I really connect with. Is sig THAT much of a non-Smiler that it's weird to use four in a medium-length post? My thing about this *infamous* post of his is that it's a Day 0 post. People are expecting the world of it, and condemning it for being too "fluff". Personally, I have probably done plenty of posts like this as a Civ, because I don't always have a lot to say that early. Some of these guys are just right-out-of-the-gates guys, but I have no right to accuse someone for just getting a post in there to be present.

Sig brushes off DH, stating that it is fluff but fluff is OK. Is this a NO U?

Yes it was a NO U. It's interesting that at this point in the game (Day 1), all we had from Sig were two "I'll be suspicions of you if you are suspicious of me" conversation kill tactics, Zebra hunky pokeyness, and awkward fluff.

I can't condemn him for the soft No U because I also agreed that attacking him for that post was weak and possibly baddie-predatory. It's not a No U if the suspicion of your attackers motives is justified.

This is a lie, Sig wouldn't have asked about JJJ in the non contributory post if this were true.

This is harsh. Accuse the guy of a fluff post until he says "yeah, it was fluffy"... and then turn it around to say "A-HA! But WHAT about this NON-FLUFF that I see???!" To call sig a liar for having a sliver of real-talk in the Penultimate Fluff Post is not very valid. It's not like sig was the one singling out his own post and making sure everyone knew it was 100% fluff, right?

Where does the LoRab suspicion come from?

This is a valid question. If sig is jumping on the Lorab wagon without his own reasons, then it's worth looking into. I do think that the Lorab suspicion was talked out by several people, and I must admit, she's on the baddie end of my hypothetical rainbow list because I read those opinions on her and agreed with some of them. I never delved into it and made my own case on her, but I still held suspicion based on what I read.

Sig's insentience on seemers being in play seems silly. What would pondering this do? I need to check how often Sig states "What do you think of X?" as a civ...

I don't see "insistence" in sig's post about a possibility that Z was a seemer, or that some trickery was involved. I do think it would be relevant to check out his history of "What do you think of X?" though, that's a good idea.

Anyways, this turned into a big "sig defense" post. I guess if he turns up bad then I'll look bad. And if he turns up Civ then maybe I'll look like a baddie who knew it was likely he was Civ so that's suspish. It's easy enough to come to either of those conclusions, but hey, I say things I think of to say. Wilgy, I know you put the time into that sig ISO, and I just wanted to get my opinion out there as well. I don't think sig is bad. I'm usually pretty crappy at this though, so we shall see!

[Long Con]

But I find LC's approach to the case shady as well. He is making a lot of very firm statements that, in my opinion, push the theory further than it can realistically go without a lot of evidence.

What more evidence can come up to support the theory that JJJ and zebra were scheming to frame llama? She's dead, and he's on high alert right now (if he's a baddie) regarding the whole subject. I think the llama-accusation was a fake thing, and that's how I talked about it. I have never implied that I have info or anything, so how firm are my statements, really? I think it's very realistic, it's a plan that I would completely support if I were the baddie in that situation.

Also, to address the "in a Champions Game" thing. I think, in a Champions Game, baddies would want to elevate their level of play. They get a curse role, and they'd say "all right, how can we REALLY USE this to get an advantage?" Maybe some of you play every game like Champions. I don't think that scrutinizing that opinion is very useful, but that's why I said it.

I'd better get to bed though, BR is all like "are you still playing MAFIA?!!"

Just kidding, she hasn't said anything. But she is in bed, and I'm going now too.

[HamburgerBoy]

I missed you mentioning me before and yet appear at the bottom of the orange list. WTF?

I did mention you briefly a couple times but I'll list my grievances more formal-style now:

1. You specifically called out LoRab wanting to see what she'd say, and then (the following day) accused her of not answering questions when she had in the time between. Also, you never went back and addressed things with her after saying you'd read them.
2. Your reason for voting seemed to mostly follow Epi and Sorsha's case, the latter I especially didn't buy.
3. Aside from Rico, who you ultimately declared yourself undecided on regardless, you haven't seemed to look anywhere outside of LoRab

Of course, all of that falls apart of it turns out LoRab is actually scum, and I only have meta from one game on her, but I feel a bit townier about her than you and Sorsha.

I'm glad you responded to a bunch of points just now, although I'm also noting that you didn't respond to Jimmy's insinuation that you and zebra could have been partners:

[quote="JaggedJimmyJay]BR's willingness to read Rico as neutral/town but still voice support for Zebra's case against him isn't ideal. She flirts with Rico as a suspect, never seems to fully latch on, but still endorses his demise and credits Zebra for much of her flexibility (perhaps allowing Zebra to take the blame for an eventual non-mafia flip). I am not sure this indicates a team mate relationship between Zebra and BR, but it is a bit suspicious on its own power.[/quote]

That kind of waffling doesn't look good to me, and since Rico was suggesting that he would know info about those who voted for him, staying off the bandwagon while still supporting it looks especially bad.

[Sorsha]

I'll just say that based on A World Reborn, I'm not seeing a different LoRab this game. Her argument with Rico seems reasonable and in line with what I've seen from others, even though I disagree (regarding rainbows and coin flips and other silliness). Epi went hard after her and started that wagon from what I can tell, but it's really based on LoRab having a safer/waffley tone. I'm ambivalent on that case. I also don't like Sorsha's post against LoRab, basically saying LoRab made a confusing post and that LoRab is usually clear. The subject matter (day 0/the poll/old roles) seemed inherently a little confusing and I don't see Sorsha's attack there as reasonable, and that pings me a bit more because during Talking Heads, Sorsha was one of the players I found myself agreeing with more strongly. During A World Reborn, Sorsha also used Matt's predilection towards wild/confusing theories against him; different target, different case, but together I think Sorsha doesn't look good.

I'll read more on LoRab in a bit, but not really liking that as an alternative to Rico.

I have to admit I'm not the greatest at reading LoRab right off the bat in a game nor do I usually get a ping from her this early, but I did, and along with what other players noticed about her I think a vote for her was justified, especially for day one. Normally I wouldn't go after Matt for his crazy theories because that's normal Matt but in a world reborn we needed to lynch civvies so I did what I had to do there. That wasn't something that happened on day one either... That was endgame. The issue I have/had with LoRab wasn't about some crazy theory she's trying to pass off either so i don't really see how these two situations relate. LoRab pinged me because it seemed like an off post from her.

[HamburgerBoy]

I'll update my rainbow now.

Ricochet

RadicalFuzz
golden
Draconus

LoRab
Matt
Epignosis
MetalMarsh

Elohcin/FZ
Boomslang
Long Con
juliets
thellama73
sig
nijuukyugou

DrWilgy
Tranq
bcornett24
MacDougall

DharmaHelper
timmer
Sorsha
Black Rock
Dom
JaggedJimmyJay

Bass_the_Clever/motel room
Spacedaisy

Also, worth noting regarding the Draconus/second curse thing, we still have a number of players (bcornett24, Spacedaisy, Dom, Tranq, nijuu, and possibly a couple others) that haven't posted today that could be cursed.

[HamburgerBoy]

I'll just say that based on A World Reborn, I'm not seeing a different LoRab this game. Her argument with Rico seems reasonable and in line with what I've seen from others, even though I disagree (regarding rainbows and coin flips and other silliness). Epi went hard after her and started that wagon from what I can tell, but it's really based on LoRab having a safer/waffley tone. I'm ambivalent on that case. I also don't like Sorsha's post against LoRab, basically saying LoRab made a confusing post and that LoRab is usually clear. The subject matter (day 0/the poll/old roles) seemed inherently a little confusing and I don't see Sorsha's attack there as reasonable, and that pings me a bit more because during Talking Heads, Sorsha was one of the players I found myself agreeing with more strongly. During A World Reborn, Sorsha also used Matt's predilection towards wild/confusing theories against him; different target, different case, but together I think Sorsha doesn't look good.

I'll read more on LoRab in a bit, but not really liking that as an alternative to Rico.

I have to admit I'm not the greatest at reading LoRab right off the bat in a game nor do I usually get a ping from her this early, but I did, and along with what other players noticed about her I think a vote for her was justified, especially for day one. Normally I wouldn't go after Matt for his crazy theories because that's normal Matt but in a world reborn we needed to lynch civvies so I did what I had to do there. That wasn't something that happened on day one either... That was endgame. The issue I have/had with LoRab wasn't about some crazy theory she's trying to pass off either so i don't really see how these two situations relate. LoRab pinged me because it seemed like an off post from her.

But you did say that her theory wasn't clear, and used that as a reason to justify a vote, even if it wasn't wackadoodle crazy or anything. I'm not talking about the late-game lynch of Matt, but the day 1 stuff where you said you'd consider a vote on Matt at Mac's suggestion, and golden put his first vote of the game on you for it as a result iirc.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I fon't know, maybe it's not a crack pot theory. It's just annoying to spend a day confined to emojis, see thr culprit of that curse die, and then immediately have people concoct conspiracy theories about it. It basically doubles the advantage of Zebra cursing me in the first place. Now I'm going to have to waste my time talking about this (and it's not really something I can defend myself against). I'm not in the spirits to deal with this nonsense.

But it's Mafia and I agreed to play so fine. I'm at work though so that's all I can say right now.

[Golden]

Why the slight town read on Matt, HB? I would have him at mild anti-town right now.

[Sorsha]

I'll just say that based on A World Reborn, I'm not seeing a different LoRab this game. Her argument with Rico seems reasonable and in line with what I've seen from others, even though I disagree (regarding rainbows and coin flips and other silliness). Epi went hard after her and started that wagon from what I can tell, but it's really based on LoRab having a safer/waffley tone. I'm ambivalent on that case. I also don't like Sorsha's post against LoRab, basically saying LoRab made a confusing post and that LoRab is usually clear. The subject matter (day 0/the poll/old roles) seemed inherently a little confusing and I don't see Sorsha's attack there as reasonable, and that pings me a bit more because during Talking Heads, Sorsha was one of the players I found myself agreeing with more strongly. During A World Reborn, Sorsha also used Matt's predilection towards wild/confusing theories against him; different target, different case, but together I think Sorsha doesn't look good.

I'll read more on LoRab in a bit, but not really liking that as an alternative to Rico.

I have to admit I'm not the greatest at reading LoRab right off the bat in a game nor do I usually get a ping from her this early, but I did, and along with what other players noticed about her I think a vote for her was justified, especially for day one. Normally I wouldn't go after Matt for his crazy theories because that's normal Matt but in a world reborn we needed to lynch civvies so I did what I had to do there. That wasn't something that happened on day one either... That was endgame. The issue I have/had with LoRab wasn't about some crazy theory she's trying to pass off either so i don't really see how these two situations relate. LoRab pinged me because it seemed like an off post from her.

But you did say that her theory wasn't clear, and used that as a reason to justify a vote, even if it wasn't wackadoodle crazy or anything. I'm not talking about the late-game lynch of Matt, but the day 1 stuff where you said you'd consider a vote on Matt at Mac's suggestion, and golden put his first vote of the game on you for it as a result iirc.

The policy lynch thing? That wasn't based on any Matt-theory thing though. I was considering a vote for Matt at that point *if* nothing else came up that day.

I didn't think what LoRab was trying to say was unclear, it's that she was saying it in an unclear manner if that makes sense- it does to me.

[HamburgerBoy]

I fon't know, maybe it's not a crack pot theory. It's just annoying to spend a day confined to emojis, see thr culprit of that curse die, and then immediately have people concoct conspiracy theories about it. It basically doubles the advantage of Zebra cursing me in the first place. Now I'm going to have to waste my time talking about this (and it's not really something I can defend myself against). I'm not in the spirits to deal with this nonsense.

But it's Mafia and I agreed to play so fine. I'm at work though so that's all I can say right now.

Aside from potentially llama, who are your biggest suspects right now? I'm really glad you did a comprehensive ISO on Zebra, but as you said here, you don't seem to have found any confident ones right now, and llama seemed to be what you found as the best connection regardless.

Why the slight town read on Matt, HB? I would have him at mild anti-town right now.

I liked that he was the first to catch onto Draconus' apparent curse; I've come to expect him to point out the smaller and/or subtle things, and then make his own conspiracy theories, as he's now hinting at Draconus either faking things or there being something else at play. His thing against MM was more of a stretch since MM was pretty obviously having fun regarding the early two teams thing, but I wouldn't put that down as a negative for him. I'll admit he doesn't have a lot of content, but I feel decent about him right now. I would vote to protect him if people used either the Draconus or MM things against him to get him lynched.

I've never seen an anti-town Matt game though fwiw.

The policy lynch thing? That wasn't based on any Matt-theory thing though. I was considering a vote for Matt at that point *if* nothing else came up that day.

I didn't think what LoRab was trying to say was unclear, it's that she was saying it in an unclear manner if that makes sense- it does to me.

I thought Mac started the policy lynch thing because he said that he thought Matt was making bad cases/theories and tunneling based on them in Talking Heads. I checked and while you employed a more joking tone than in this game, you did say it was Matt's previous tunneling that made you want to do it.

imo she was saying it in a very direct way, but it was inherently confusing because it discussed roles in this game and whether or not that included roles in previous games. The fact that it was about a day 0 poll, and not an unclear case to get someone lynched, especially makes me think you're putting too much stock into that post as being a scum indicator.

[Golden]

A rainbow, because why not:

Notable points: I've been getting decent vibes from HB today. I think he has handled pressure relatively well. So he isn't at the bottom as people might have expected from my post history, I've moved him up as far as mild town. Some of the low posters, my reads are essentially based on meta for being so quiet, as I don't have a lot of content to go on. I have no overly strong baddie reads.

Strong town

RadicalFuzz

Moderate town

Tranq
JaggedJimmyJay
Black Rock
Draconus
DharmaHelper

Mild Town

Hamburger Boy
FZ
MacDougall
Boomslang
thellama73
Timmer
bcornett24

Neutral

Motel Room
Juliets
nijuukyugou
Epignosis

Mild baddie

Matt
Dom
LoRab
Spacedaisy
Metalmarsh
Sorsha

Moderate baddie

sig
Dr. Wilgy
Long Con

[HamburgerBoy]

Alrighty, I need to go to bed, and by the time I'm next available it may be close to the deadline, so I'm going to say this now:

Jimmy's posts since my conspiracy theory post have made me feel worse about him, not better. First thing, the contrast between...

If I don't even know whether being killed would preclude me from winning, I'm not going to encourage my own demise. Typically I play loose and don't concern myself with that, but now I have no choice.

Moreover, I am under basically no pressure right now. Two votes early in the day phase are pretty much meaningless. You have no idea how I view a Mafia game if you think I'd call that Scramble Time.

I realize the former refers to JJJ's question to SVS about whether or not dead players can win, so it's not directly about him being under any pressure, but "now I have no choice" reads like that's what it's ultimately about anyways. Unless you meant that now you have no choice except to not concern yourself with hidden rules? The fact that you're talking about encouraging your own demise and etc makes me think you weren't though.

Secondly, while again I appreciate the Zebra ISOs and the high effort shown as always, that your apparent two biggest suspects out of the exercise are llama (who you've been on most of the game now) and sig (who is sig) doesn't make me feel good. It makes me feel like you're considering the possibility that you will be lynched, and that by making a bunch of mild statements about everyone and their relationship to Zebra, you remove the risk of implicating a third player on a Zebra/Jimmy team should you so flip. When you caught me RYM #86, your ISOs of my interactions had a much wider range of confidence, from people that you thought looked terrible (Turnip, who I bussed horribly) to people you thought looked great and townie as a result. You credited that to Zebra's playing and maybe that's so, but I'd expect townie Jimmy to be invigorated in light of a night 1 mafia death and on the prowl. Talking Heads, actually, I thought you looked more confident too in light of people wanting to lynch you. For someone that claimed not to be too worried about the two votes on you, you seem to be dedicating more time to that issue than would be necessary. I mean, jeez, I just got silenced twice in a row on RYM #91 and when I get silenced, there's usually a good bit of stuff I keep noted that I wanted to reply to but couldn't until night. I didn't see much of that from you either.

I know you've discussed other things as well; a defense of Draconus against implication that he could be faking a curse, a little bit of stuff with juliets, but now we actually are getting kinda close to the deadline, with hardly any votes cast yet, and you haven't given any serious candidates for lynching. In fact, you even promised this 18 hours ago...

In truth I am not convinced he is bad. He was my biggest suspect on Day 1, but we're onto a new day now and I don't know where my analyses will take me. If I remain suspicious of llama at the end of it all, I'll definitely voice the reasons why as clearly as I can.

Yet your only llama analysis since then has been your Zebra ISO.

So overall I'm keeping my vote where it is and not feeling too bad about it anymore.

[HamburgerBoy]

Why mild town on timmer, golden? I'm getting paranoid about him especially considering the number of times he admitted in Chatzy during A World Reborn that he was intentionally keeping a low profile to last as long as possible. Not that he's had any significant pressure yet where he might need to, but I don't see him higher than neutral (and for me I'd call anti-town for now). Also, for the day 0 poll he voted for a role you described as non-fitting/worthless for this game, and you also questioned Rico and DH for seemingly not taking the poll seriously, so I don't see timmer looking good out of that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Aside from potentially llama, who are your biggest suspects right now? I'm really glad you did a comprehensive ISO on Zebra, but as you said here, you don't seem to have found any confident ones right now, and llama seemed to be what you found as the best connection regardless.

My top suspect right now might be MM. I'm also suspicious of sig, Long Con, and llama. I also compiled a "maybe" list for more speculative possibilities: sorsha, dharmahelper, mac, and boomslang.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Alrighty, I need to go to bed, and by the time I'm next available it may be close to the deadline, so I'm going to say this now:

Jimmy's posts since my conspiracy theory post have made me feel worse about him, not better. First thing, the contrast between...

If I don't even know whether being killed would preclude me from winning, I'm not going to encourage my own demise. Typically I play loose and don't concern myself with that, but now I have no choice.

Moreover, I am under basically no pressure right now. Two votes early in the day phase are pretty much meaningless. You have no idea how I view a Mafia game if you think I'd call that Scramble Time.

I realize the former refers to JJJ's question to SVS about whether or not dead players can win, so it's not directly about him being under any pressure, but "now I have no choice" reads like that's what it's ultimately about anyways. Unless you meant that now you have no choice except to not concern yourself with hidden rules? The fact that you're talking about encouraging your own demise and etc makes me think you weren't though.

When I say "encouraging my own demise", I mean "behaving like Typical JJJ" and giving plenty of motives for bad guys to night kill me. If being night killed precludes me from winning, that's going to force me to play in a more restrained way. That's why I asked the hosts that question in the first place.

Secondly, while again I appreciate the Zebra ISOs and the high effort shown as always, that your apparent two biggest suspects out of the exercise are llama (who you've been on most of the game now) and sig (who is sig) doesn't make me feel good. It makes me feel like you're considering the possibility that you will be lynched, and that by making a bunch of mild statements about everyone and their relationship to Zebra, you remove the risk of implicating a third player on a Zebra/Jimmy team should you so flip.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. llama and sig aren't my only "top suspects", they're among the four I named. How does my suspicion of those two bring you to the conclusion you're reaching -- that I'm trying not to implicate a third team mate in the hypothetical Zebra/JJJ team dynamic. More importantly, if my desire is to make it harder for townies to figure out Zebra's team mates, then the worst thing I could do is provide a substantive analysis of every player in anticipation of my own lynch. Then all of that shit I just wrote would be used against me! I have confidence in my mafia-aligned skillset, but not so much that I'd willfully feed townies reviewable data -- unless I expect to survive. This flies in the face of your assertion. If I am mafia-aligned and I expect to be lynched, I don't do that. See the Champs finale for evidence -- I was outed and I stopped posting completely.

When you caught me RYM #86, your ISOs of my interactions had a much wider range of confidence, from people that you thought looked terrible (Turnip, who I bussed horribly) to people you thought looked great and townie as a result. You credited that to Zebra's playing and maybe that's so, but I'd expect townie Jimmy to be invigorated in light of a night 1 mafia death and on the prowl.

RYM #86 is a different game, and those analyses came under different circumstances with different players who had performed differently. If there's data available to me that inspires confidence in me, then I will exude confidence. I specifically stated that Zebra did a nice job of preventing her post history from implicating anyone else in a blatant, visible way. I did find some people that I was confident were not on her team, and that counts just as much. I've at least aided process of elimination.'

The highlighted bit makes me wonder about you. What exactly are you expecting of me? A mafia-aligned role was flipped, and I provided a thorough review of every interactive dynamic in the game with that player (excluding timmer for the moment). That's not "invigorated"? Sheesh! I don't know how this can be a serious accusation. Confidence and effort are not the same thing, but this seems to be making them the same thing.

Talking Heads, actually, I thought you looked more confident too in light of people wanting to lynch you. For someone that claimed not to be too worried about the two votes on you, you seem to be dedicating more time to that issue than would be necessary. I mean, jeez, I just got silenced twice in a row on RYM #91 and when I get silenced, there's usually a good bit of stuff I keep noted that I wanted to reply to but couldn't until night. I didn't see much of that from you either.

I'm JJJ. I respond to accusations. You know this, you've played with me a ton of times. This is not news. No, I don't think I'm under that much pressure now, though it has heightened since the last time I said that.

I know you've discussed other things as well; a defense of Draconus against implication that he could be faking a curse, a little bit of stuff with juliets, but now we actually are getting kinda close to the deadline, with hardly any votes cast yet, and you haven't given any serious candidates for lynching. In fact, you even promised this 18 hours ago...

In truth I am not convinced he is bad. He was my biggest suspect on Day 1, but we're onto a new day now and I don't know where my analyses will take me. If I remain suspicious of llama at the end of it all, I'll definitely voice the reasons why as clearly as I can.

Yet your only llama analysis since then has been your Zebra ISO.

So overall I'm keeping my vote where it is and not feeling too bad about it anymore.

Did you read my llama commentary in the Zebra analysis? His was special. I specifically expanded my exploration of his content beyond just Zebra to encompass my other suspicions, and I clearly stated that in the text. Also, since when is 18 hours a time frame that commands suspicion? That's less that one day, and in that space I have provided quite a bit of llama-relevant content. You're demanding much more of me than is reasonable. I know I've been a posting-lunatic in my time, but nobody should be expected to produce at the pace you're demanding of me in this accusation. 18 hours?! I'm not cybernetically implanted into my laptop.

[MacDougall]

Okay fuckers here comes SupaHotFire (that's my new name, yes you can refer to me as it). RIP David fucking Bowie.

HamburgerBoy has looked civilian in the posts since I last posted so I was probably wrong about him. He can be my new sidekick. SupaHotHamburger.

Some replies.

@FZ

JJJ, thanks for those ISOs. DH feels the worst for me after reading the conversations between zebra and the rest, not even sure why.

Julliets' interactions with zebra feel genuine, while the issues I'm having are related more to what zebra said about her. I've only played with civvie Julliets, but when I first played with her, like Mac, I felt she wasn't being genuine too. Very agreeable, asking a lot about other people's thoughts and stuff like that. I thought it was too good to be true, but I've learnt that this is how she really is. She's a really nice person. Mac, Is this your first game with Julliets? If not, what about her behaviour strikes you as not genuine enough?

I also thought the same way you did the first time I played with her and it turned out she was bad. I haven't seen her civilian game but I believe her when she says she plays the same way though. You're right, juliets is lovely. 10/10 hot.

@Jimmy

So why have you looked straight past a bunch of stuff that is on the very topic you are using to base your hunt? That seems strange. Don't you think the best place to start would have been where there's already content rather than arbitrarily starting at "a"?

Because what you describe is the definition of tunnel-vision. You have a narrow field of players that you have already made connections with, and you're deliberately focusing upon them. I don't do that, I think it encourages internal bias and makes the exercise of reading interactivity less productive. Alphabetical order is essentially randomized and it enables me to check names that aren't already being discussed frequently in this game. I hope to get to everyone eventually anyway so it really doesn't matter.

No, it isn't, at all. It would be you starting your read at a point that has already had elaboration on rather than arbitrarily at a. Which is exactly what I said. You would also be reading me at the same time. It makes way more sense to start where the content is. To not do so is tantamount to dismissing the validity of it entirely, which considering I am top 5 in both your best scum and town players lists I don't believe you are want to do to my cases. SupaNotFire.

Zebra and MacDougall

This spoiler is very large:

Spoiler: show

I get a rush of energy when I elaborate on what I believe to be opportunistic behavior. If you've seen me in any game ever for even a day, you know this. Doesn't mean I'm good, but it also doesn't mean you rustled anyone's jimmies. Get off your high horse. Nice continued lack of defense to a legitimate and shared suspicion by the way.

Surely you wouldn't be this adversarial off the bat if there wasn't an underlying intention. You are posting like a parody of yourself right now.

Dios mio, a warranted suspicion! You're still wrong however, quite often I am adversarial off the bat. In fact if I'm a parody of myself right now then I'm a parody of myself in every game I've ever played. Which might very well be the truth.

I get a rush of energy when I elaborate on what I believe to be opportunistic behavior. If you've seen me in any game ever for even a day, you know this. Doesn't mean I'm good, but it also doesn't mean you rustled anyone's jimmies. Get off your high horse. Nice continued lack of defense to a legitimate and shared suspicion by the way.

Surely you wouldn't be this adversarial off the bat if there wasn't an underlying intention. You are posting like a parody of yourself right now.

Dios mio, a warranted suspicion! You're still wrong however, quite often I am adversarial off the bat. In fact if I'm a parody of myself right now then I'm a parody of myself in every game I've ever played. Which might very well be the truth.

You have not disputed my point. My question is whether you'd be so adversarial without having an underlying intention. My inference is that you and Rico are staging this debate.

I don't recall you being this immediately adversarial in Dune, or in Tree, or in West Wing. Where you waded into the game with a lot more jokes and a lot nicer outlook initially. Here you are down to business very fast. How far are we away from a Star Wars style Zebra ISO of every single player before half of them have made more than 1 post?

I kind of did dispute your point though, because if I'm this adversarial in every game where I have an underlying intention or not, then this game is no different. I see you still think this is unusual for me, so if your suspicion of me is strictly meta-based then my defense can only be meta-based as well. I'm nice until I see a reason not to be nice, that's it. It might not happen until Day 25, or in the more frequent cases, it happens before Day 2. In this case it's before Day 1.

Note: Zebra and Ricochet stopped fighting as soon as I pointed out that I think they are faking it.

Would you like us to continue, master?

Large post

I'd like to grind this negative interaction to a halt because I'm a little bit over 200 post arguments with people I actually don't have scum reads on (see Golden vs. Mac, Star Wars). I've seen enough out of you to change my tune.

Works for me, but I have to address this:

Post lots and you'll live longer.

For you, and for many people, this is true to an extent. For me, helllllll no. I got as far as I did in Star Wars by the skin of my teeth and a shit-ton of luck. When I speak my mind and play a strictly genuine game - regardless of my alignment - you can guarantee that I will be lynched (not night-killed, LYNCHED) by Day 3. So I don't do that anymore - regardless of my alignment. People think my observations and conclusions are either too strange to be town-motivated or outright fake. They just do. So my mafia persona has incorporated much more deceit and much more manipulation then when I started out. For me, this is a necessity to survive. I NEVER coast, because I simply can't. It's not in me to be a minimal poster, I'm not synchronized with everyone else enough to state my mind 24/7, and I can't even coast with sheer posting magnitude because even when I keep certain things from others there's still enough posts where someone will call me out on something by reading it the wrong way. Even when I AM bad I'm more often than not read as bad for incorrect reasons, such as misinterpreting my intentions or thinking that my activity is effected by my alignment when it literally never is. That makes the game fun and challenging for me, but I have never coasted in any game ever.

I don't think LoRab is bad and I don't recall Mac saying anything about it during this phase.

I'm sorry, what?

linki - Oh boy

I can't believe Rico's strategy of making everyone think they're trying to get everyone to vote for them so no one will ultimately vote for them is starting to actually work.

I am happy to have a crack at lynching Rico, but just let it be known that I don't think it'll work.

Why?

Your tone/rhetoric is unnervingly subdued so far, Mac. Where's the shit-flinging and Broadway charisma?

I'm not missing the aggression, but I am missing the all-over-the-place theorizing and speculation about what's going on. With as much that's happened so early in the game, you've only strongly considered a select few possibilities.

linki - rued

I've considered and made judgements on more players than anyone except Ricochet. It's like middle of day 1, what I think you are describing is something that I do further into the game.

That's a good point. I still have post-dead-Zebra Star Wars lingering in my brain.

Boomslang
sig
Long Con
MacDougall
Matt
juliets

Haha, Mac got two right and Golden got none right.

Boomslang
sig
Long Con
MacDougall
Matt
juliets

You haven't even made mention of some of these players so I'm not sure how we were supposed to guess.

Also I share suspicion of your main two suspects for what it's worth.

That's what makes it a guess? And good to know.

Well, I mean, I was just assuming I had some basis on which to work with, but I didn't really.

If I was taking it seriously, I would have guessed Matt was in there (given your approach to his MM suspicion), and I was 50/50 on what your view was on LC. I wouldn't have gotten the others, though.

It looks pretty arbitrary does it not?

I'm not convinced she didn't just pick some of those names right then and there.

I'm not sure Zebra is the sort of player who has suspicions of players for as long as she apparently has had here without engaging them or even mentioning it.

Normally, you'd be correct. But at the moment, and at the start of the day when I declared the six other potential candidates, I still have Ricochet as by far and away my top suspicion, and since you and some others are hesitant about lynching him, I am/was reluctant to share my other suspicions directly because I don't want the day to result in a wild goose chase when I think we've got a clear baddie target that we can focus on. Make no mistake, I do want discussion, I just feel it necessary to demonstrate that Rico is by far and away the top of my kill list mothafucka.

I was just going to say that if anyone should be suspicious of Mac it's because he's not being Rico-y enough, but I see he beat me to it.

Overcompensating for your previous lack of aggression until I pointed it out eh Mac?

Thanks Ricochet.

Golden and I seem to be on a very similar wavelength so far this game, I can dig it.

This post sounds eerily familiar to something Bib Fortuna would have posted.

I don't buy that you actually think this.

I'm not sure what to make of a2thezebra posting a 13 minute video 19 minutes before the poll ends. I'm over halfway through the clip atm, but without having seen it till the end i don't feel like i can make an informed decision.

That's six minutes to decide whose argument is better.

The fact that Ricochet has self voted makes me feel like he's probably going to get lynched. I remember that part of my role said I couldn't self vote.

If he's civilian I'll be pleasantly surprised. My bet is on indie.

Hahahahaha. Fuck my life. I meant scum.

Okay never mind whew Jesus

Thanks Ricochet.

Golden and I seem to be on a very similar wavelength so far this game, I can dig it.

This post sounds eerily familiar to something Bib Fortuna would have posted.

I don't buy that you actually think this.

I'm not sure what to make of a2thezebra posting a 13 minute video 19 minutes before the poll ends. I'm over halfway through the clip atm, but without having seen it till the end i don't feel like i can make an informed decision.

That's six minutes to decide whose argument is better.

Why the fuck wouldn't I you spent lots of energy as a scum buddying Golden in Star Wars. I was arguing with him while you were doing it.

That was genuine. It was irrelevant to my alignment. Being a scum in that game watching two (almost assuredly from my POV) civs going at it bordering on personal was just exhausting and infuriating. You were leading that conflict so I went after you. Deal with it.

The fact that Ricochet has self voted makes me feel like he's probably going to get lynched. I remember that part of my role said I couldn't self vote.

If he's civilian I'll be pleasantly surprised. My bet is on indie.

Hahahahaha. Fuck my life. I meant scum.

Okay never mind whew Jesus

Fuck off.

Yup, this is definitely compensation for your lack of aggressiveness before I called you out on it. No question.

I disagree that it would be deserved in either case, and either way I still think you would be compensating.

You have literally angered me to the point where I am swearing at you but you're going to just say I am faking it. You are baiting the shit out of me right now and you know it.

I didn't say you were outright faking it, only that you were compensating. A kind of flanderization of yourself; your genuine reaction, yet amplified up to eleven.

linki -

Just so you know, this is what it would have sounded like.

If you think I'm actually going to listen to that with other people in the room then you're kidding yourself. Also...if you think I'm baiting you just because I've somehow angered you enough to start swearing at me, then again...you're kidding yourself. Does that mean every other player in Star Wars was baiting you all the time as well? Here's a crazy thought...maybe you get angered relatively easily.

I thought I was pretending to be angry.

The vocaroo post is tongue in cheek Zebra lol. Also how am I supposed to know you have other people in the room. Lighten up.

You're angry, but you're telling zebra to 'lighten up'?

For fucks sake. Let me spell it out.

Zebra annoyed me with a post. It manifested in a "fuck you" post. On account of not being a psychopath who sits behind their computer screen seething over forums mafia my frustration dissipated pretty well immediately. I made the vocaroo post to be funny and Zebra replied to it with an annoying amount of seriousness.

Ya dig?

I'm out. It's Saturday and I should take my kid to the park or something.

On account of not being a psychopath who sits behind their computer screen seething over forums mafia my frustration dissipated pretty well immediately.

Doth protest too much methinks... :P

Also, my response wasn't exactly deathly serious.

There's obviously a ton of content here, just on the Zebra-to-Mac side. The sheer volume might be a non-team mate indication for Mac, because it simply a lot of posts for these two to have made if they were made in concert. That'd be some dedication to the distancing craft for sure. However, there are some moments that make me wonder if their criticisms of one another are fake (ironically given that Mac at one point suggested Zebra and Rico were faking it). On a few occasions they cast suspicion upon one another for reasons that I'd call dubious. I'll list them in bullets:

- Mac suggested Zebra was being more immediately adversarial than normal. In my experience playing with Zebra, her being immediately adversarial is the norm. I didn't play in two of the games Mac referenced (Star Wars and West Wing), but I did play in Trees. I guess she was a bit more subdued then, but I'd still assert she was adversarial. I think I recognize this as a component of her style because on numerous occasions now that immediately adversarial behavior has been directed at me. :P

- Zebra kind of turned the same accusation against Mac, suggesting he wasn't displaying his typical "shit-flinging, Broadway charisma". Mac's heavy involvement in this game so far seems less than "subdued" to me. Maybe he hasn't "flung shit", but he has certainly made cases and accusations of numerous players.

- Zebra asserted Mac could be viewed as suspicious because he isn't being "enough like Rico" in this game. Mac didn't like this accusation and I think it was an inaccurate representation of Mac's styles.

If I'm not sure their accusations of each other are grounded in reality, then that leaves room for them to be fake. In a game that seems likely to feature multiple mafia teams, fake accusations would be good indicators of a team mate relationship.

Most of Mac's content about Rico is covered above. Here's a little extra.

Spoiler: show

Here's where I'm at right now. In no particular order.

I feel good about the below:

Golden
Zebra
Black Rock
DharmaHelper
Dom
Epignosis

These are the ones who are on my scum radar:

Boomslang
Wilgy
Lorab
sig
Llama

Ricochet is who knows.

The rest are null.

Well, I mean, I was just assuming I had some basis on which to work with, but I didn't really.

If I was taking it seriously, I would have guessed Matt was in there (given your approach to his MM suspicion), and I was 50/50 on what your view was on LC. I wouldn't have gotten the others, though.

It looks pretty arbitrary does it not?

I'm not convinced she didn't just pick some of those names right then and there.

I'm not sure Zebra is the sort of player who has suspicions of players for as long as she apparently has had here without engaging them or even mentioning it.

Overcompensating for your previous lack of aggression until I pointed it out eh Mac?

Uh no I am sick of people pretending they know how I play and making cases about it. I have you and Boomslang scum reading me for completely opposite viewpoints and it is pissing me off. He has absolutely no valid reason. His is OMGUS as blatant as fuck.

Mac's read on Zebra seems to change pretty quickly. She was one of his six positive reads, but soon after his tune changed. I usually like it when people are willing to change their mind on a dime. Forced consistency is the mark of a mafioso, so this is nice for Mac, or at least non-team mate indicative.

I'll also touch on the more volatile material in which things got a little personal. For some reason I find myself doubting the notion that Mac would stage something like that -- obviously he's an aggressive player and will do whatever he must to win, but I do think he has limits and he respects the game of Mafia. I'll allow Mac to talk about the bulleted points I listed earlier and my suspicions on that front before I come to a final conclusion.

1. That's like, your opinion man. I felt like Zebra bouncing into the thread immediately raining shit down on all and sundry was unusual for her. My experience with civilian Zebra is, yes aggressive and yes many posts but there was a sense of immediacy here where I recall her going through normal early game joke votes and pleasantries in prior games.

2. I'm not sure what you want me to say to this? I agree?

3. Um I agree some more. Wtf.

That seems a bit empty considering all the effort that seemingly went into it. U bad James?

Zebra and Golden

Spoiler: show

Unvote
vote MacDougall

So that test didn't work.

Thinking about Rico now... How could Ricochet be scum? It makes no fucking sense. He is playing sooooo whack, he is seemingly trying to get votes cast on him, and that's not a scum role imo. I think he might be my World Reborn role, or something like it. Where I had a win con of getting shit tons of votes on me and was a cop, and lynchproof etc. I was indy.

He smells indy as fuck to me.

Thats exactly why, to me, it makes so much fucking sense for Rico to be bad.

Rational people should rationalise it the way you just did. Rico has played it up SO MUCH that at this point I think he realised early he was taking heat and decided to wifom his way out of it.

Bingo.

So Draconus has also been cursed? To post only in questions?

That or faking it, yes.

I did it and came up with...

None of them will be MetalMarsh or JJ.

That's about it. I don't think you've even expressed a view on me.

You are correct that neither of them are in my list, although I'm a little surprised you guessed JJ.

Haha, Mac got two right and Golden got none right.

Thanks Ricochet.

Golden and I seem to be on a very similar wavelength so far this game, I can dig it.

Told you he wanted to be lynched zebra.

Don't forget that you did convince me before the day was over that this was true, and I even changed my vote for less than half a minute.

I do still stand by that lynching Rico was the right way to go. Golden makes a good point that if a civ wants to be lynched, they should get what they want nine times out of ten.

I'm voting marmota because marmot, hellooooooo

Not realising that the one above it is zebra...

I realized, simply because I'm the only user that starts with "a". Marmot is an international hero.

This might look like a lot, but it's less than I anticipated considering the post count between these two. Zebra interacted indirectly with Golden quite often though, primarily through his arguments with Rico and discussions with Mac. None of the above pings me as team mate-probable. In fact, I rather like that Zebra was so engaged in the activity of supporting Golden's arguments against Rico at every opportunity. I think most mafia-aligned players would be disinclined from such thorough mind-melding like this. It could be said that Zebra sought to buddy Golden, but I might take it a step further and suggest he wanted the thread at large to have the perception that he and Golden were cooperatively supertowning. That would suggest a non-team mate relationship.

Spoiler: show

I don't recall you being this immediately adversarial in Dune

My recollection might be skewed by the fact she was adversarial towards me, but I feel as though zebra was fairly immediately adversarial in Dune. You might recall I was calling her out on day one for something like her second post appearing to be a massive overreaction.

Plus, my feelings on Mac have shifted. I don't have any active suspicion of him any more up to where I've read. I don't agree with him about the rico/zebra fight being staged. If they were both to be bad, I'd guess that would mean two baddie teams.

Mac, if you could choose one person to be immediately lynched at this moment, who would be your choice?

linki - Haha, I didn't even bother to check that. All I knew was that even if it were true, it's not alignment-indicative regardless.

This makes me feel good about zebra. Or at least, for me it demonstrates that the (patently silly) b24/zebra team theory is wrong. If they were actually teammates, zebra would have been much more likely to point out the inaccuracies (or demonstrate awareness of them), rather than just say 'its wrong' in the way he did.

However, shockingly enough I've got my eye on six others who may end up with my vote by the end of the day. Can you guess who they are?

Your teammates?

No matter what affiliation rico (or zebra) is, this was awesome and hilarious.

Why has no one bothered to ask me about my six other potential votes for the day? Especially since most of us seem to agree that Rico is getting too much attention.

I don't think anyone needs to ask for you to share.

I was actually meaning to ask you why we needed to guess? Just for funsies?

For funsies as well as to get an idea if anyone's misreading me be it deliberately (alignment-indicative) or because I post too much (not alignment-indicative).

I'm kind of surprised that you think they don't need to be guessed. You think you can correctly guess all six then? Remember, this is excluding Rico.

No, I couldn't guess one.

I can't pay attention to what everyone elses suspicions are this early on in the game. It takes getting deep before I have any hope of tracking where everyones head is at. I really only notice that 'player x suspects player y' if it is aligning with things I'm already thinking about and seeing.

But, I will do a brief ISO of you and guess for funsies.

I can only hope Golden's ISO will reveal how bad zebra is.

Well....

It did make me feel like there isn't a huge amount of analysis there.

Does this make her bad? There were huge amounts of analysis in her Star Wars iso. So I'd say, on the face of it, that it does not make her bad.

But I was underwhelmed by how much I got out of 130 posts.

@Mac - maybe, maybe not. As noted, I know from Star Wars that zebra is able to choose to appear supatown when bad. Choosing to look slightly lazy (in comparison to that game) could be a very good and intentional counterpoint to her Star Wars persona (regardless of her affiliation).

Based on going back and reading her iso, I would have her just slightly bad in my rainbow, but very close to neutral. I was disappointed to see how high a percentage of the content was just dealing with all the rico stuff, and how vague the rest is. And I don't really see why you wouldn't just offer up who is bad rather than asking people to guess (even for funsies).

But, I don't understand those things from any particular affiliation mindset.

Everything HBoy has said regarding Rico is leading me to believe he's desperately trying to save his teammate.

There's a part of me that feels that this is exactly what is going on. That sentence I requoted for emphasis feeds in to this in particular. That whole "I guess I could see an angle where that person is bad, and it is angle x' thing... it feels manufactured.

There is another part which just feels like a player who is trying to catch up on the thread and missing large chunks of information, but even if bad I like that he has come in so late and made an effort. It would be tempting to just slide by for a while (especially if bad), so that is a point in his favour.

I'm torn. But I'm interested in his responses to my questions.

A clear shift is visible in Golden's reception of Zebra from the start of the game to the time of her demise. At the earliest stage he gave her positive marks and stood mildly in her defense when she fielded some accusations. That changed later in Day 1 after Golden performed a more thorough review of her content and decided it wasn't as substantive as it appeared. I like this for Golden, because I think a mafia-aligned player is more likely to have a specific strategy for "reading" their team mate that they employ through Day 1 (whether that "read" be good, bad, or neutral) -- not one that changes abruptly without need or prompt. It looks like an organic shift to me, which would suggest a non-team mate relationship.

Zebra and HamburgerBoy

Spoiler: show

Can people suspecting Ricochet give an example of a game where he was scum and behaved similarly to this one? I hate it when I see a case that goes like "X is a good player, they're playing weird and their posts suck this game, I don't know why they'd be doing this, they must be scum".

I've given reasons why Rico would be playing the way they are multiple times.

1. They're trying to shift the focus of the thread on to them, possibly away from other teammates who would otherwise get too much spotlight.

2. They're hoping by making it look like they're trying to get votes, not enough people will vote for them by the end of the day, or perhaps game.

3. They were feigning supatown to the nth degree in the beginning and have now gone full WIFOM since being called out on it by multiple players.

And Rico's meta is irrelevant since as others have said, Rico has never played this way before as town or mafia. Asking for an example of Rico playing this way as a baddie before this is questionable in its own right. Not only have reasons been given from more than one person voting for Rico as to why they would do this as a baddie, there have also been reasons given as to why them doing this is unlikely to have civilian motivation.

Everything HBoy has said regarding Rico is leading me to believe he's desperately trying to save his teammate.

That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.

linki - I'm not claiming to know how you play in general, only how you have played recently. Which is not this. Or at least, it wasn't.

linki - stop stop stop lemme post ugh

That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.

Why juliets?

Because she defended herself well, and her defense seemed genuine. You on the other hand, are only making me question your posts' authenticity more and more.

What's up S~V~S!

I see you lurking there too, HBoy. How's it going?

The second quote in there is probably the most suspicious thing Zebra said in this game. I think it was nonsense to insinuate that any potential mafia team mate of Rico would show up late in Day 1, see a tally in which Rico was a landslide vote leader, and then try to prevent his lynch. With that in mind, I think this is a non-team mate reflection for Burger. Zebra may have been entirely honest in this read, but that'd have to mean Burger is on a different mafia team in Zebra's mindset. We obviously know that Rico and Zebra were not team mates.

Burger's post history has more mentions of "Zebra" than number of posts. Y'all should just click, search for Zebra, and see for yourself. I don't feel like sifting through this.

I will say that Burger's late arrival turned into a focused effort to interact with Zebra and Golden on the matter of Rico, primarily to dispute their assertions about him. If Burger and Zebra are team mates, then he spent the entirety of Day 1 debating with his team mate. This could promote/perpetuate the Rico distraction, so there is a valid angle there I guess. I think I lean more towards a non-team mate relationship though.

Zebra and Juliets

Spoiler: show

Boomslang
sig
Long Con
MacDougall
Matt
juliets

Zebra, I would also like to know why I am on your list if you have time right now to tell me. If not now, later would be fine.

I'm still waiting to hear (see) from Lorab before i vote but i'm getting uneasy about the time squeeze.

I'm the least confident about my baddie read of you, but you have made some posts that have stood out to me as waffly in a careful-baddie sort of way. I can't remember who said it but someone said that your posts were just mimicking others' observations and opinions, and that's not my issue because like you said yourself, it isn't alignment-indicative. However, I do think some of your suspicions are "safe" for lack of a better word. You've given me a sense that you're aiming to follow what trains are going to be the most prominent by the end of the day. In other words, following the pack while making it look like you're borderline leading it.

That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.

linki - I'm not claiming to know how you play in general, only how you have played recently. Which is not this. Or at least, it wasn't.

linki - stop stop stop lemme post ugh

That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.

Why juliets?

Because she defended herself well, and her defense seemed genuine. You on the other hand, are only making me question your posts' authenticity more and more.

If there's more than one, which you insinuated yourself, why wouldn't they have names to distinguish them?

How many are there?

Juliets said that I suggested the mafia teams have names and I know what they are. I did not; that was a new idea that juliets put in my mouth.

I would agree that if there are two mafia teams, that they would have distinctive names.

I don't know how many there are.

It may or may not have been the idea that you suggested, but she did not put the idea in your mouth. She understood, as Matt (and I, though not vocally) did as well, that you suggested there are multiple mafia teams. Since you agree that having multiple mafia teams would mean there are distinctive names for each team, then it would go without saying that by suggesting there are multiple teams you are suggesting there are names for them as well. I interpret that this is purely miscommunication; but I find it a bit odd that you actually find it suspicious that juliets would reach that conclusion.

If there's more than one, which you insinuated yourself, why wouldn't they have names to distinguish them?

How many are there?

Juliets said that I suggested the mafia teams have names and I know what they are. I did not; that was a new idea that juliets put in my mouth.

I would agree that if there are two mafia teams, that they would have distinctive names.

I don't know how many there are.

It may or may not have been the idea that you suggested, but she did not put the idea in your mouth. She understood, as Matt (and I, though not vocally) did as well, that you suggested there are multiple mafia teams. Since you agree that having multiple mafia teams would mean there are distinctive names for each team, then it would go without saying that by suggesting there are multiple teams you are suggesting there are names for them as well. I interpret that this is purely miscommunication; but I find it a bit odd that you actually find it suspicious that juliets would reach that conclusion.

Juliets suggested I know what the mafia team names are. To have this knowledge, I would probably have to be mafia. But she didn't seem very convinced considering the suggestion she made.

Convinced that you were mafia? I think she was trying to gauge that without outright accusing you of anything (which, as always, leads to different and often less reliable results) so I still don't see how the suggestion of the teams having names is suspicious in any way.

I'm torn. The second quote here is suspicious in that Zebra was so careful about the wording, or at least it looks that way to me. I can almost see her sitting at her laptop racking her brain for the best approach to describing her suspicion of Juliets. This could indicate that they're team mates and Zebra didn't want to leave damaging bread crumbs. The problem with that theory would be that it'd have clearly failed -- at least Mac and I have already noted a connection and probably others. Another possibility is that Zebra was being careful with Juliets because she wanted to maintain control over the enemy she was potentially making by going after Juliets (a reputed player around here as far as I can tell, this is my first game with her -- excited about that ). In any event, I do see at least some potential for a team mate relationship in that post.

I am also torn on Zebra's willingness to drop Juliets as a suspect and replace her with Burger. If she's the one cliche team mate on her kill list, then she'd be an odd choice for replacement like that. Hmm.

Spoiler: show

How exactly is Zebra confirmed caught, you'll need to refresh my memory on that?

This is a question that occurred to me while reading but I can't find the answer anywhere. Ricco can you answer this please? If you did and i missed it (quite possible due to all the discussion of the Mac/Ricco/Zebra issue) then I apologize but could you please point it out to me? Also, this question was in an answer with a lot of embedded posts so I just snipped down to the question itself.

linki

Zebra, I would also like to know why I am on your list if you have time right now to tell me. If not now, later would be fine.

I'm still waiting to hear (see) from Lorab before i vote but i'm getting uneasy about the time squeeze.

Zebra, I would also like to know why I am on your list if you have time right now to tell me. If not now, later would be fine.

I'm still waiting to hear (see) from Lorab before i vote but i'm getting uneasy about the time squeeze.

I'm the least confident about my baddie read of you, but you have made some posts that have stood out to me as waffly in a careful-baddie sort of way. I can't remember who said it but someone said that your posts were just mimicking others' observations and opinions, and that's not my issue because like you said yourself, it isn't alignment-indicative. However, I do think some of your suspicions are "safe" for lack of a better word. You've given me a sense that you're aiming to follow what trains are going to be the most prominent by the end of the day. In other words, following the pack while making it look like you're borderline leading it.

I understand what you are saying here. At the beginning of games regardless of my affiliation I am not very confident about lynching people. Some people are comfortable with that ambiguity but I am not. Therefore I come off as always following. As the game goes on I become more confident and i think you will see a change in my demeanor (if I make it that far). I will do my best to expose myself more earlier in the game than normal for me regardless of the consequences. Usually that comes out in the form of questions, one of which I've already asked and it hasn't been answered. My questions tell you where I am suspicious.

Thanks for your answer to my question.

I just caught up and am glad to see Lorab's responses in the thread. Rico, Lorab did indeed address me because she addressed Epi and Sorsha's concerns and my concerns were based on issues that they had brought up. I'm not quite sure why you didn't understand that.

Anyway, unlike Sorsha and BR I found Lorabs points to be clear and concise and she has persuaded me not to vote for her tonight. I'll keep an eye open for any future behavior but I am currently satisfied she is not bad. This does not mean however that I am suspicious of Sorsha or BR.

So now I have to decide who to vote. Metalmarsh comes to mind because I have twice asked him a question about why he used the word "which" in his question to JJJ re: "which team do you thin he is on". I have been ignored both times. MM has not even acknowledged I posted a question to him. This makes me think he doesn't want to answer because the only reason you would phrase the question as "which team" is if you had team names in mind. What kind of answer did he expect out of JJJ? What's an example? Those were the questions I asked. Without any response from him after asking twice I think it was a total slip. Now maybe MM can convince me differently and I wish he would try because maybe there is some explanation that I'm not thinking of. Also, if anyone has a strong point they want to bring out in MM's favor for me to consider please do so.

I'm also going to take the time now to re-read Rico. Mac's observations kept me from suspecting him earlier but so much has happened since Mac made those comments that I'm feeling like I'm possibly not weighing the evidence appropriately. Maybe Rico is the place to vote, zebra's points about him have been strong. Since i don't have a lot of time (I would have started the re-read this morning had I been able) i would say I lean more toward MM

Ok I'm going to go ahead and start re-reading. I plan on keeping up with the thread while I so so.

i am out of time basically and need to vote. Metalmarsh, I saw you said you must have missed my posts. I'm going to give you the BOTD and give you another opportunity to answer me. I'll even did out the original question for you so it will be easier than you going back to look for it (did I ever tell you i got lynched for being too nice one time?).

This leaves Rico. I understand and believed in what Mac has been saying but the sheer overload of Rico throwing out things that are ridiculous (for example, zebra and bc24 posting near each other) and then trying to call them cases, and making comments that dont even need to be made just to remind people he thinks someone is bad (some directed at me) convinces me that the right vote is for Rico today. In addition, the fact that as far as anyone can remember Rico hasn't behaved like this before causes me to be suspicious that his overwhelming posting was meant to chill the room so not many people could actively participate. I know I had a lot of trouble keeping up and one glance at the posts tells you why. So, I'm voting for Rico today, we'll see how it goes.

Metalmarsh, gone to find your quote next.

Metalmarsh here is the question I asked you. Note that I am not asking the same questions you already answered. I'm wanting to know what was in your head when you picked the word "which" when you framed the question.

MM, your question to him was "which team do you think he is on?". That sounds like you not only know there are two teams (i know you responded to this already) but that you knew what the team names were. What made you use the word "which"? And what did you expect in return from JJJ that would be an example of "which"? I hope you understand what I am asking. If not, let me know.

Sorry I never responded juliets. I've been playing much of this game so far on my phone, and just must be missing posts.

Anyway, to answer your questions.

• 1) I have no idea how many teams there are. That was an intentional "slip" to see how folks responded.
  2) I did not know that the mafia team(s) have names. Your suggestion of that is very suspicious imo. I did not imply that I knew it either.
  3) I expected Jay to be far more aggressive in his response, since the number of mafia teams is unknown, and I implied that I knew how many there were. Then again, Jay was acting apathetic before I asked the question, so I don't know what to make of it. Different Jay =/= mafia Jay.

And to add, Matt did propose the same case that you did, that I slipped, and must be mafia. But he took a pretty hesitant approach to it. The Matt I remember from Talking Heads would have dogged me all day and all game over something like that.


Juliets, where did you get the idea that the mafia team(s) have names?

I've never played a game where the mafia teams haven't had names. It just made sense that since you were indicating you thought there was more than one team you also thought the teams would have names. I think you admitted to this during the discussion that has taken place.

zebra and DH have hit precisely on my reasons for asking you the question so i don't feel we need to rehash that. Thanks to the two of you for reading my mind while I wasn't here. I do think the root of the miscommunication here is that you asked the question to see what reactions there were to the question, not to get a specific answer to the "which" question. You didn't expect a response to the question. (That's a little hard for me to understand but I take you at your word). I, on the other hand, read the question as one where you were looking for a specific answer and didn't understand how someone could be expected to answer a "which" question without knowledge of names of the parties from which he would choose. I wouldn't have asked the question if I had realized you were just looking for reactions about the question.

The only thing I can't understand is why you think I'm suspicious for asking the question. As games go on I ask lots of questions. Some of them represent misunderstanding which sounds like the case here. Thats why I ask, to cull out those issues and get to the real issues.

If you feel we need further discussion about this just let me know.

As far as the vote goes for today, I think I'll vote for spider monkey. I have no idea who that could be and we don't even know if the person attached to it receives something good, something bad, or nothing at all. We don't even know for sure if someone is attached to animal. So Spider monkey it is.

I think the second and third quotes here are the most important. If we can judge whether Juliets was sincere in her efforts to engage Zebra on her suspicions and then to explain herself so that she could be understood, then we can assert a relationship or lack thereof with some degree of confidence. On the surface, I do think Juliets looks pretty sincere. I am not sure if it's that her diction is agreeable, the way she writes makes sense to my brain and I think that might make her a blind spot long term. I like the way she describes the value her questions pose in her Mafia process, it reminds me of my own explanations in many games past when people have sought to understand my habit of asking a bunch of questions. Personal bias alert.

I'd like to hear from others on this one, especially Mac who seemed to have come to a stronger conclusion than I have. I see potential for a team mate relationship if I am specifically trying to find one.

The post where Zebra says "I'm the least confident in my baddie read of you". I have said that before. I have said that when I was a big bad who had just made a read on a bad guy team mate based on fuck all and they asked me in the thread to elaborate on it. I have never said that as a civilian to my memory (please don't find examples where I have ) It is prefacing what you're about to say with "the following is a bunch of bullshit". Zebra as a bad guy is more likely to not preface her cases that way, as you can see by the way she ripped into a whole bunch of other players. It feels like scum on scum to me so much. It feel like just how I do it. The alternative scenario that she was afraid of engaging juliets, I just don't buy. It's Zebra ffs. She'll engage anyone and juliets doesn't exactly scream intimidation to me (sorry juliets much love).

It all looks like Zebra fake reading then taking back a fake read to me.

Overall Jimmy what I am seeing from you this day is not what I expect from SupaHotJimmy. You are making a lot of hoo ha about nothing. The way you called upon me to reply twice without actually giving me much to reply to was weird. I was all cracking my knuckles ready to jump in but had barely anything to comment on. It was weird. I am used to you being incising, but I'm a little underwhelmed?

A frank dismissal of what I initially read as pretty dumb thinking about you possibly being cursed was also rather unlike you though I also tend to feel like Zebra would have cursed someone she was threatened by on day 1 and hell if I was a scum with a curse role I would have cursed the fuck out of you on day 1 too so I don't agree. I think your reaction reads like a scum caught by a faulty case. It reminds me of my derision of Matt's RIDICULOUS CASE OF BULLSHIT from TH.

JJJ how ironic that while you were reading mine and Zebra's interactions I was reading your posts to get a better handle on your suspicion of llama. I saw your case from Day 0 and then of course I saw all your references to him being bad during your curse where you couldn't articulate reasons, but the reasons I see for you to think he is bad don't seem as strong as your assertations that he is bad. Does that make sense? Consequently, I think I've missed some of your reasoning somehow and it would be helpful to me and maybe others if you just did a quick bullet point post on why you are convinced he is bad. Thanks in advance.

Oh and I don't see anything you want me to comment on regarding your comments about mine and zebra's relationship but I will say I think you read me better than Mac and what you think might be bias is just an understanding of a particular style. If you would like me to answer any questions I am glad to do so.

How can you say that he reads you better than me when:

1. You say you play the same way as scum and as civ. So you would be unreadable.

2. I have had the opportunity to read you in one game, and correctly read you as bad?

Would a more accurate comment be that he reads you as a civilian by default whereas I seem to read you bad by default? Ergo his reading of you is generally happier days for you?

I recognise buddying in this post.

I apologize that I cannot quote the post I am answering. It would not let me embed another post within the long string of posts. This is directed at Mac re: his last post about me:

Your evidence is I don't sound sincere or genuine - that I am verbose. Zebra made accusations against me but other than that I don't know what evidence you are talking about. Is it all about my sincerity? I still maintain you just don't understand how I communicate and thats why you question my sincerity and think I'm verbose. It happens, (the sincerity part, never has anyone called me verbose it's usually just the opposite) especially with people who haven't played with me much. But, we are just going to go around and around about that and I do not have any belief that I will change your mind. You could though point me toward this other "evidence" of my baddieness.

My suspicions of you are based on reading a non genuine tone, and yes it is probably because of your robotic way of replying and yes I expect you post the same way as a civilian so I am quite possible tone reading you wrong, and the way Zebra behaved in your interactions not you. So that sucks for you.

You could change my mind. You aren't suspicious enough to me to be of immediate concern. Right now I am far more convinced that sig is bad. Help me find the big bads.

Sig is primary candidate for Zebra teammate! Let's lynch him.

Now for me to go listen to Bowie and cry.

[MacDougall]

Aside from potentially llama, who are your biggest suspects right now? I'm really glad you did a comprehensive ISO on Zebra, but as you said here, you don't seem to have found any confident ones right now, and llama seemed to be what you found as the best connection regardless.

My top suspect right now might be MM. I'm also suspicious of sig, Long Con, and llama. I also compiled a "maybe" list for more speculative possibilities: sorsha, dharmahelper, mac, and boomslang.

I too can put names in posts. U play gud.

[MacDougall]

I must say it was really easy to read all those day 2 posts without me, Zebra and Ricochet turning the thread into our own private fuck pit. Just a shame Jimmy got all nasty with the thread while I was gone.

[Tangrowth]

RIP David Bowie.

[Tangrowth]

Blue, blue, electric blue
That's the color of my text
In my non-player posts...

[thellama73]

Sorry I wasn't erally around yesterday, folks. I was busy early and then crashed at an early bedtime. Now, let's see, to business:
RIP Dfaraday
BIH Zebra

Sig, I want to ask you about this post. You start by singalling out something I did (comments about Rico's death) but don't really explain why is it bad (just be scummy). Then you say you are leaning scum on me. Why? You've brought this up before, but given no explanation for why you think I might be bad. Is it just because I suspect you? If so, this post has done you no favors in my eyes, and I intend tio vote for you again today.

So zebra was mafia, that most likely means JJJ wasn't on her team. I did see the idea that she picked him, but this makes little sense for day 1. I think it is worth looking into the players who after Rico flipped made comments, like saying how they hope he isn't as spammy or it would be better to have lynched a baddie. I find the first group to almost be trying to weaken Rico's credit thus giving him less of an opinion and basically neutering him, and the second group to just be scummy.

I think a few mafia members were on the Rico wagon, however I also think there is a good chance that either LoRab or Llama are scum.

I don't have many civ or scum reads right know, but I do think Long Con is a civilian, and I'm leaning scum on Llama. Know here is my question do you think the early snipping that Llama and Zebra did was fabricated? It was only a little bit, but I'm curious what people think of it.

I think with Zebra's lynch it also makes it less likely that Mac is on her team.

One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.

[Black Rock]

I missed you mentioning me before and yet appear at the bottom of the orange list. WTF?

I did mention you briefly a couple times but I'll list my grievances more formal-style now:

1. You specifically called out LoRab wanting to see what she'd say, and then (the following day) accused her of not answering questions when she had in the time between. Also, you never went back and addressed things with her after saying you'd read them.
2. Your reason for voting seemed to mostly follow Epi and Sorsha's case, the latter I especially didn't buy.
3. Aside from Rico, who you ultimately declared yourself undecided on regardless, you haven't seemed to look anywhere outside of LoRab

Of course, all of that falls apart of it turns out LoRab is actually scum, and I only have meta from one game on her, but I feel a bit townier about her than you and Sorsha.

I'm glad you responded to a bunch of points just now, although I'm also noting that you didn't respond to Jimmy's insinuation that you and zebra could have been partners:

[quote="JaggedJimmyJay]BR's willingness to read Rico as neutral/town but still voice support for Zebra's case against him isn't ideal. She flirts with Rico as a suspect, never seems to fully latch on, but still endorses his demise and credits Zebra for much of her flexibility (perhaps allowing Zebra to take the blame for an eventual non-mafia flip). I am not sure this indicates a team mate relationship between Zebra and BR, but it is a bit suspicious on its own power.

That kind of waffling doesn't look good to me, and since Rico was suggesting that he would know info about those who voted for him, staying off the bandwagon while still supporting it looks especially bad.[/quote][/quote]

I went to bed and haven't seen that post yet. I was all over the place last night. I assume that's the post. As far as I am concerned I think JJJ is stretching a little bit here. I don't feel like I waffled. Sure I didn't mind him being lynched, but that was a personal thought not because I found him bad but because I found him distracting. I think I was very firm in my belief he was not bad and stated so several times.

[thellama73]

Also, Dr. Wilgy is my new hero.

[Turnip Head]

I wanted to clarify something. All win conditions in this game (excepting any potential independent roles, if there are any) are team victories. You win if your team wins. That is all.

[Long Con]

I wanted to clarify something. All win conditions in this game (excepting any potential independent roles, if there are any) are team victories. You win if your team wins. That is all.

What a relief!

[DharmaHelper]

So zebra was mafia, that most likely means JJJ wasn't on her team. I did see the idea that she picked him, but this makes little sense for day 1. I think it is worth looking into the players who after Rico flipped made comments, like saying how they hope he isn't as spammy or it would be better to have lynched a baddie. I find the first group to almost be trying to weaken Rico's credit thus giving him less of an opinion and basically neutering him, and the second group to just be scummy.

I think a few mafia members were on the Rico wagon, however I also think there is a good chance that either LoRab or Llama are scum.

I don't have many civ or scum reads right know, but I do think Long Con is a civilian, and I'm leaning scum on Llama. Know here is my question do you think the early snipping that Llama and Zebra did was fabricated? It was only a little bit, but I'm curious what people think of it.

I think with Zebra's lynch it also makes it less likely that Mac is on her team.

One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.

Engaging in my catch up and I have to say this post really rings my bells.

1. I don't think it clears JJJ from being on Zebra's team at all. Mafia target in-house with those types of roles early very often.
2. I disagree. I think its good form for Rico to dial it back now that he's done what he wanted to do. I also can't fault anyone for thinking that however unlikely it would have been, lynching a baddie D1 would trump lynching a civvie.
3. Rico would have been a very easy vote to make late, I agree.
4. Several instances of your post (the suspecting people who thought it would be better to lynch a mafia, calling out Lorab and Llama) already indicate you suspect Llama, But you don't say why. Seems like a vendetta to me.
4. How?
5. This is a big ping for me. A huge indication of mafia is their tendency to bring speculation into the thread.

[DharmaHelper]

Oh also I'm voting sig for the moment. Not likely to change unless something really fucks me up in my catch up.

That big fluffy post of fluff was a total red flag, his defense of it was weak, and the post above is another flag for me.

[DrWilgy]

Thank you for the feedback LC, and I agree that I was being too harsh in one of my points.

Golden, why am I so low on your dank memebow list?

[DrWilgy]

Also, I started watching a run of Mother 3, my body cannot contain my feels.

[Long Con]

So zebra was mafia, that most likely means JJJ wasn't on her team. I did see the idea that she picked him, but this makes little sense for day 1. I think it is worth looking into the players who after Rico flipped made comments, like saying how they hope he isn't as spammy or it would be better to have lynched a baddie. I find the first group to almost be trying to weaken Rico's credit thus giving him less of an opinion and basically neutering him, and the second group to just be scummy.

I think a few mafia members were on the Rico wagon, however I also think there is a good chance that either LoRab or Llama are scum.

I don't have many civ or scum reads right know, but I do think Long Con is a civilian, and I'm leaning scum on Llama. Know here is my question do you think the early snipping that Llama and Zebra did was fabricated? It was only a little bit, but I'm curious what people think of it.

I think with Zebra's lynch it also makes it less likely that Mac is on her team.

One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.

One thing I'm always wary of is Mafia buddying up to Civs, so this is one thing that I have to say toward the relatively popular idea that sig is bad. Why do you think I'm Civ, sig?

[Dom]

I just caught up-- oh my god you guys gave me a lot to read after my trip!

During your rampage of silliness yesterday Rico, who did you genuinely suspect?

Off the top of my head, the rebuttals in which I actually blended flipping out with actually having an issue with the casemakin' were towards LoRab and juliets. I felt LoRab plainly picked up others' suspicion, which is uncharacteristic of her. I was also genuinely confused by how juliets can suspect LoRab for the things she is also doing (working with other players' material). Tranq's EoD felt very shady, tbh. I could add Dom's wagoning in the mix perhaps, but thing is Dom's D1 has been docile, and that doesn't show up in my baddie reads of Dom. I probably partly influenced him to take such an approach, but it is what it is now.

You didn't influence me to be busier than normal.

I'll vote Rico or Llama. Exhausted from this catch up.

That was spoken night 0. While people were getting pretty anti-Rico by that point, I think the inclusion of Llama in there is noteworthy when you hadn't even been cursed yet, and llama hadn't really done much aside from calling sig fluffy and attacking Mac/defending Rico in the big argument. Based on my last game with Dom, I remember him actually jumping the gun a little bit after Chatzy discussion (near the end of the game trying to win over fingersplints), and him throwing llama's name out there in an either-or for two of the eventual poll leaders is a red flag for me. I'll bump him down to orange in my rainbow as well.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Could you clarify?


I'm not a fan of sig's speculation of seemers. We have no reason to suspect that there are seemers yet.


Anyway, I'm gonna vote for sig now. I'm still busy guys and doing my best. Anyone who plays with me knows that I don't like phoning it in like this.

[DharmaHelper]

So zebra was mafia, that most likely means JJJ wasn't on her team. I did see the idea that she picked him, but this makes little sense for day 1. I think it is worth looking into the players who after Rico flipped made comments, like saying how they hope he isn't as spammy or it would be better to have lynched a baddie. I find the first group to almost be trying to weaken Rico's credit thus giving him less of an opinion and basically neutering him, and the second group to just be scummy.

I think a few mafia members were on the Rico wagon, however I also think there is a good chance that either LoRab or Llama are scum.

I don't have many civ or scum reads right know, but I do think Long Con is a civilian, and I'm leaning scum on Llama. Know here is my question do you think the early snipping that Llama and Zebra did was fabricated? It was only a little bit, but I'm curious what people think of it.

I think with Zebra's lynch it also makes it less likely that Mac is on her team.

One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.

One thing I'm always wary of is Mafia buddying up to Civs, so this is one thing that I have to say toward the relatively popular idea that sig is bad. Why do you think I'm Civ, sig?

See guys this is how you use colors.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To be more specific

calling him a crack pot really attempts to invalidate what he is saying.

So you say you didn't say you were exactly sure (hmmm..) and stated so to Zebra (of all players) but your exact words were "I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates." Problem with that whole process of thinking is that LC DIDN't make that all up, you made it very clear to the thread and it seems you are back tracking now that we all know Zebra cursed you.

His assertion was that I'm on Zebra's team. I'm not. So yes, I definitely did make an effort to invalidate that assertion. It's false. I first suggested HamburgerBoy's conspiracy theory was crack pot-caliber, and then when LC brought it out I reiterated that perspective. I'm willing to concede now that it might not be so absurd as it seemed, especially if DharmaHelper's comment is accurate that it's actually commonplace here (I've never seen anything like it), but it's still incorrect.

I made it clear to the thread that I was suspicious of llama, and that my curse was a portion of that suspicion. I did not suggest llama definitely cursed me or imply I was convinced of that. I said something completely different from that. I literally said "I don't know". The difference is not at all negligible.

[Long Con]

So zebra was mafia, that most likely means JJJ wasn't on her team. I did see the idea that she picked him, but this makes little sense for day 1. I think it is worth looking into the players who after Rico flipped made comments, like saying how they hope he isn't as spammy or it would be better to have lynched a baddie. I find the first group to almost be trying to weaken Rico's credit thus giving him less of an opinion and basically neutering him, and the second group to just be scummy.

I think a few mafia members were on the Rico wagon, however I also think there is a good chance that either LoRab or Llama are scum.

I don't have many civ or scum reads right know, but I do think Long Con is a civilian, and I'm leaning scum on Llama. Know here is my question do you think the early snipping that Llama and Zebra did was fabricated? It was only a little bit, but I'm curious what people think of it.

I think with Zebra's lynch it also makes it less likely that Mac is on her team.

One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.

One thing I'm always wary of is Mafia buddying up to Civs, so this is one thing that I have to say toward the relatively popular idea that sig is bad. Why do you think I'm Civ, sig?

See guys this is how you use colors.

*** High Five Bro! ***

[Long Con]

I did not suggest llama definitely cursed me or imply I was convinced of that. I said something completely different from that. I literally said "I don't know". The difference is not at all negligible.

But what you said was this:

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

Unless I'm reading it differently than you intended it, that's saying "I don't know if Llama did this or if one of his teammates did it".

The difference is negligible, because they both mean "Llama is a baddie on the cursing team".

[juliets]

Mac I broke up your long posts into the chunks that are relevant for me to comment on.

JJJ how ironic that while you were reading mine and Zebra's interactions I was reading your posts to get a better handle on your suspicion of llama. I saw your case from Day 0 and then of course I saw all your references to him being bad during your curse where you couldn't articulate reasons, but the reasons I see for you to think he is bad don't seem as strong as your assertations that he is bad. Does that make sense? Consequently, I think I've missed some of your reasoning somehow and it would be helpful to me and maybe others if you just did a quick bullet point post on why you are convinced he is bad. Thanks in advance.

Oh and I don't see anything you want me to comment on regarding your comments about mine and zebra's relationship but I will say I think you read me better than Mac and what you think might be bias is just an understanding of a particular style. If you would like me to answer any questions I am glad to do so.

How can you say that he reads you better than me when:

1. You say you play the same way as scum and as civ. So you would be unreadable.

2. I have had the opportunity to read you in one game, and correctly read you as bad?

Would a more accurate comment be that he reads you as a civilian by default whereas I seem to read you bad by default? Ergo his reading of you is generally happier days for you?

I recognise buddying in this post.

I apologize that I cannot quote the post I am answering. It would not let me embed another post within the long string of posts. This is directed at Mac re: his last post about me:

Your evidence is I don't sound sincere or genuine - that I am verbose. Zebra made accusations against me but other than that I don't know what evidence you are talking about. Is it all about my sincerity? I still maintain you just don't understand how I communicate and thats why you question my sincerity and think I'm verbose. It happens, (the sincerity part, never has anyone called me verbose it's usually just the opposite) especially with people who haven't played with me much. But, we are just going to go around and around about that and I do not have any belief that I will change your mind. You could though point me toward this other "evidence" of my baddieness.

My suspicions of you are based on reading a non genuine tone, and yes it is probably because of your robotic way of replying and yes I expect you post the same way as a civilian so I am quite possible tone reading you wrong, and the way Zebra behaved in your interactions not you. So that sucks for you.

You could change my mind. You aren't suspicious enough to me to be of immediate concern. Right now I am far more convinced that sig is bad. Help me find the big bads.

Sig is primary candidate for Zebra teammate! Let's lynch him.

Now for me to go listen to Bowie and cry.

In your first comment you indicate it's possible that JJJ reads me good by default whereas you read me bad by default and might that not be the reason I think he reads me better. I think he reads me better than you in that he recognizes my style alone does not make me bad. That's not the same thing as reading me good by default. You on the other hand seem to be willing to convict me on style alone. I do recognize however that you just saw me as bad using the same style and think you caught me out as bad because on my style. JJJ's read - that i am not necessarily bad which is the truth - naturally feels better to me, I don't deny that at all. And I don't know what about that post makes you think I'm buddying.

I will be happy to help you catch the big bads. At this point in time we agree on something which may be a first: sig is bad and unless something else happens that is compelling I will vote for him today. My personal opinion is the best way to catch the baddies is to go through their posts and do an ISO (or maybe it's that other thing you guys talk about the GT something). I had thought I was going to do one on DH because his name is coming up a lot and I'm not seeing the case. But, he's not on the poll today. I tell you what, to show my good faith in trying to help if you tell me who you would like to see done I will do them, and I don't mean just one person. I'm not as good at this as Jimmy so expect me to be a bit slower.

[Golden]

Re timmer, gut/meta in the face of very little evidence. But you make good points, HB, about the World Reborn, and I had forgotten anything about engaging with him on day zero.
Re Doc, your iso is remarkably bare, even taking into account the DrWilgy stylistic flourish.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No, it isn't, at all. It would be you starting your read at a point that has already had elaboration on rather than arbitrarily at a. Which is exactly what I said. You would also be reading me at the same time. It makes way more sense to start where the content is. To not do so is tantamount to dismissing the validity of it entirely, which considering I am top 5 in both your best scum and town players lists I don't believe you are want to do to my cases. SupaNotFire.

This is total nonsense. The order in which I analyzed players means pretty much nothing. I did everyone. I can't actually tell if you're casting suspicion on me for this or just suggesting I was less efficient or something. If it is suspicion, then you're bad because that'd be the most ridiculous accusation you've ever leveled upon me -- and I haven't forgotten the time you fake-cased me for using big words.

1. That's like, your opinion man. I felt like Zebra bouncing into the thread immediately raining shit down on all and sundry was unusual for her. My experience with civilian Zebra is, yes aggressive and yes many posts but there was a sense of immediacy here where I recall her going through normal early game joke votes and pleasantries in prior games.

2. I'm not sure what you want me to say to this? I agree?

3. Um I agree some more. Wtf.

That seems a bit empty considering all the effort that seemingly went into it. U bad James?

I don't think you understood my intent here, which is probably my fault this time. I gave you the chance to "address the bulleted points" which was a dumb choice of words on my part because now you've limited your discourse to exactly the bullets -- which you're right aren't entirely response-applicable. My intent was for you to talk about the general nature of my mild suspicion and either refute it outright, call me a dummy, or whatever you might do. #1 in this response is the most relevant to where my mindset was because it was the one about you. The others were about Zebra, and I was reading her content relative to you so I obviously included it in my analysis.

Your more specific description of your perceived Zebra meta is noted. I will say that it kind of reminds me of what I said about Diiny on Day 1 of Talking Heads -- that his aggressiveness was sudden and severe to an abnormal degree, even though he typically is an aggressive player. So that's a decent look.

The post where Zebra says "I'm the least confident in my baddie read of you". I have said that before. I have said that when I was a big bad who had just made a read on a bad guy team mate based on fuck all and they asked me in the thread to elaborate on it. I have never said that as a civilian to my memory (please don't find examples where I have ) It is prefacing what you're about to say with "the following is a bunch of bullshit". Zebra as a bad guy is more likely to not preface her cases that way, as you can see by the way she ripped into a whole bunch of other players. It feels like scum on scum to me so much. It feel like just how I do it. The alternative scenario that she was afraid of engaging juliets, I just don't buy. It's Zebra ffs. She'll engage anyone and juliets doesn't exactly scream intimidation to me (sorry juliets much love).

It all looks like Zebra fake reading then taking back a fake read to me.

I think I've said it as a townie. I understand your suspicion though. We seem to agree that that post is an important moment in the matter of reading juliets relative to Zebra, and I voiced my own suspicion of it. I voiced it with less authority than you have, but that's just a reflection of my mindset.

Overall Jimmy what I am seeing from you this day is not what I expect from SupaHotJimmy. You are making a lot of hoo ha about nothing. The way you called upon me to reply twice without actually giving me much to reply to was weird. I was all cracking my knuckles ready to jump in but had barely anything to comment on. It was weird. I am used to you being incising, but I'm a little underwhelmed?

Hoo ha about nothing? How do you even know what "nothing" is at this point? Do your own damned analysis, do it better than I did, and then tell me this bullshit. I asked for your input on juliets because you'd already voiced some suspicion and I thought you'd be a good person to talk to about her. You don't need me to provide you with specific prompts. Just talk about topics -- say your piece. Frankly, you did. If you "didn't have much to reply to", then what the hell is this:

The post where Zebra says "I'm the least confident in my baddie read of you". I have said that before. I have said that when I was a big bad who had just made a read on a bad guy team mate based on fuck all and they asked me in the thread to elaborate on it. I have never said that as a civilian to my memory (please don't find examples where I have ) It is prefacing what you're about to say with "the following is a bunch of bullshit". Zebra as a bad guy is more likely to not preface her cases that way, as you can see by the way she ripped into a whole bunch of other players. It feels like scum on scum to me so much. It feel like just how I do it. The alternative scenario that she was afraid of engaging juliets, I just don't buy. It's Zebra ffs. She'll engage anyone and juliets doesn't exactly scream intimidation to me (sorry juliets much love).

It all looks like Zebra fake reading then taking back a fake read to me.

Clearly you were inspired enough to provide a thick paragraph.

A frank dismissal of what I initially read as pretty dumb thinking about you possibly being cursed was also rather unlike you though I also tend to feel like Zebra would have cursed someone she was threatened by on day 1 and hell if I was a scum with a curse role I would have cursed the fuck out of you on day 1 too so I don't agree. I think your reaction reads like a scum caught by a faulty case. It reminds me of my derision of Matt's RIDICULOUS CASE OF BULLSHIT from TH.

This I understand. I'm not normally the sort to dismiss things like that. I've tried to explain here that my frankness and coldness is the result of significant Mafia burnout. There's also the fact that the most heartbreaking sporting disaster of my lifetime occurred on Sunday and it's left a hole inside me that is seriously a torment. That might sound silly to many, rightfully so, but I invest a great deal of emotion in the Bengals and they traumatized me. This could perhaps be OT text, but I think it's relevant to people understanding why I'm behaving the way I am.

I don't mean to be a jerk though. I'm sorry if I have been, y'all.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I did not suggest llama definitely cursed me or imply I was convinced of that. I said something completely different from that. I literally said "I don't know". The difference is not at all negligible.

But what you said was this:

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

Unless I'm reading it differently than you intended it, that's saying "I don't know if Llama did this or if one of his teammates did it".

The difference is negligible, because they both mean "Llama is a baddie on the cursing team".

You are. The word "maybe" should not be glossed over. It implies two realities: one in which llama has team mates and one in which he does not. If he does not have team mates, he isn't bad (this is me speaking within the perspective that "town" isn't a "team" in the same manner as a mafia team). I was clearly suspicious of llama and I said so both in text and in emojis. I thought there was a decent enough likelihood that either he cursed me or a mafia team mate of his cursed me.

I was not certain that's what happened. I'm not certain of anything at all.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Aside from potentially llama, who are your biggest suspects right now? I'm really glad you did a comprehensive ISO on Zebra, but as you said here, you don't seem to have found any confident ones right now, and llama seemed to be what you found as the best connection regardless.

My top suspect right now might be MM. I'm also suspicious of sig, Long Con, and llama. I also compiled a "maybe" list for more speculative possibilities: sorsha, dharmahelper, mac, and boomslang.

I too can put names in posts. U play gud.

Those names reflect my analyses, with the exception of Long Con who I think has been suspicious for things independent of Zebra interactions. Burger asked me to put names in a post and I complied. Is there some other response you'd expect here?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Zebra and timmer

Pretty much no relevant interactions. Zebra did give Rico shit for one post in which he cast scattershot suspicion on a bunch of people including timmer. It's too indirect for me to do much with it though. Inconclusive.

[Ricochet]

Hey everyone, I had a busy work day, followed by a customary napping crash. I haven't picked up on real activity and didn't follow up Day 2 too closely since yesterday, but I'll see what I can do, starting now...or maybe after I watch Joy. Then again, I am the untouchable Count Papryco, so I can do what I want, as much as my time permits. [sarc+redrumcolor] my only concern atm is JJJ finally picking up the pace and threatening my lead[/sarc+redrumcolor]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I just noticed MM hasn't posted this phase apart from this single thing:

And Oh shit Cincy! Just looked at the score. Who dey

Does this OT Bengals lamentation qualify as evidence that he can't be silenced? I don't know what's typical on The Syndicate. Do silenced players tend to post in OT? I don't remember seeing it.