Day 12 ~ 2015 Game of Champions

[DharmaHelper]

I mean do you think the Wilgy/Sorsha connection is false, and that he was frustrated to be dragged down due to her. Sorry for any confusion.

[Draconus]

That baddie death, though. Bih Wilgy!
Be back tomorrow when I'm not exhausted.

[DrWilgy]

Heh! Oh well. I don't like being bad anyways. Good luck everyone, it was fun!

Oh! Thank you hosts!

[bea]

I mean do you think the Wilgy/Sorsha connection is false, and that he was frustrated to be dragged down due to her. Sorry for any confusion.

Crap. Sorry. I really missed the mark. Idk if the connection is false. I could see how you got there in the first place. I honestly thought it was more Sorsha budding than anything at the time. I do feel he was genuinely frustrated. I'm seeing that more as he thought he was drug down for the wrong reasons if that makes sense?

[Sorsha]

BIH Wilgy

I'm still not bad, just really good at trusting the wrong people. Same thing I did in TH Mafia.

I'm fine with a motel lynch today... Still think Draco is bad though.

[MacDougall]

Why are you off the poll sorsha?

[Sorsha]

Because I picked the right night poll option last night.

[MacDougall]

Why are Matt and I not off the poll then?

[Sorsha]

Because I voted first I would think.

[MacDougall]

So you are telling me you have a role that means if you vote position 3 you vanish off the poll... or are you totally guessing here?

[DharmaHelper]

BIH Wilgy

I'm still not bad, just really good at trusting the wrong people. Same thing I did in TH Mafia.

I'm fine with a motel lynch today... Still think Draco is bad though.

Bruh my vote is just there so I can see the poll.

[Sorsha]

So you are telling me you have a role that means if you vote position 3 you vanish off the poll... or are you totally guessing here?

No, I'm saying that certain options on the night poll will sometimes give you a prize. I don't have positions.

[DharmaHelper]

I mean do you think the Wilgy/Sorsha connection is false, and that he was frustrated to be dragged down due to her. Sorry for any confusion.

Crap. Sorry. I really missed the mark. Idk if the connection is false. I could see how you got there in the first place. I honestly thought it was more Sorsha budding than anything at the time. I do feel he was genuinely frustrated. I'm seeing that more as he thought he was drug down for the wrong reasons if that makes sense?

I see what you mean. You mean you still think they might be connected but that Wilgy didn't consider what they'd done as distancing.

[Sorsha]

BIH Wilgy

I'm still not bad, just really good at trusting the wrong people. Same thing I did in TH Mafia.

I'm fine with a motel lynch today... Still think Draco is bad though.

Bruh my vote is just there so I can see the poll.

I thought it was determined he was Kubrick?

[Sorsha]

Or like... Pretty likely, due to his not being lynched the other day?

[Matt]

RIH Wilgy. Nice work, DH.

Now that Wilgy is dead and Sorsha cannot be voted for, will anyone help me vote MM? I mean, seriously?

Marmot

[Marmot]

RIH Wilgy. Nice work, DH.

Now that Wilgy is dead and Sorsha cannot be voted for, will anyone help me vote MM? I mean, seriously?

Marmot

Plot twist.

[Matt]

You think anyone will vote for you? I'm guessing not.

[Marmot]

You can vote if you want to
You can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't vote and if they don't vote
Well they're all friends of mine
I say, we can lynch who we want to
A baddie they will never find
And we can lynch them 'til they're out of this world
Leave the real one far behind
And we can vote

You can vote when you want to
The day is young and so am I
And I'll dress real neat from my hat to my feet
And surprise 'em with my victory cry
Say, you can vote if you want to
If you don't nobody will
And you can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile

I say, you can vote, you can vote
Everything out of control
You can vote, you can vote
You're doing it from wall to wall
You can vote, you can vote
Everybody look what you wrote
You can vote, you can vote
Everybody takin' a note

Safety vote
Is it safe to vote?
Is it safe to vote?

You can vote if you want to
You've got all your life and mine
As long as you abuse it, never gonna lose it
Everything'll work out fine
I say, you can vote if you want to
You can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't vote and if they don't vote
Well they're all friends of mine

It's the safety vote!

[Ricochet]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooo! WILGYYYS!

goddamn hyphothesis #2.

It is Night.

Ok peeps, good night and good luck. Hopefully a mafia member will die tonight, because of there surely being two teams *tells Sans to stop chuckling in the back*... erm yeah. See you tomorrow.

Sans!

Can I just take a second. I'm an arrogant piece of shit 95% of the time and it only pays off 1% of the time. This is really fucking great. RIPSYWB Wilgy.

Since you were baaaaaaad

Nicely called dh. I'm sorry I doubted you.

By all means look at me mac. I am a civ.

This post needs a twirl.

I don't understand why they wasted a night kill - we were about to lynch him.

Honest to God, I don't get why you have to say the scummiest things possible in this game. Baddies WASTING a kill on the other baddie team? Yeah, sorry a civilian didn't die for once.

[Ricochet]

BIH Wilgy

I'm still not bad, just really good at trusting the wrong people. Same thing I did in TH Mafia.

I'm fine with a motel lynch today... Still think Draco is bad though.

Because I picked the right night poll option last night.

That's ok, the other team will kill you next.

[MacDougall]

I think the idea of sorsha believing that she just magically got pulled off the poll the day after Wilgy got lynched was a magical luck out from a night poll is ridiculous and it was quite an obviously intentional move right? I'm not the only one here who is now 100% sure (DH aside) that she was on Team Wilgy?

[Ricochet]

I think the idea of sorsha believing that she just magically got pulled off the poll the day after Wilgy got lynched was a magical luck out from a night poll is ridiculous and it was quite an obviously intentional move right? I'm not the only one here who is now 100% sure (DH aside) that she was on Team Wilgy?

No, Sorsha's idea about the night poll is probably correct.

[MacDougall]

Oh well then fuck me right.

[a2thezebra]

You can vote if you want to
You can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't vote and if they don't vote
Well they're all friends of mine
I say, we can lynch who we want to
A baddie they will never find
And we can lynch them 'til they're out of this world
Leave the real one far behind
And we can vote

You can vote when you want to
The day is young and so am I
And I'll dress real neat from my hat to my feet
And surprise 'em with my victory cry
Say, you can vote if you want to
If you don't nobody will
And you can act real rude and totally removed
And I can act like an imbecile

I say, you can vote, you can vote
Everything out of control
You can vote, you can vote
You're doing it from wall to wall
You can vote, you can vote
Everybody look what you wrote
You can vote, you can vote
Everybody takin' a note

Safety vote
Is it safe to vote?
Is it safe to vote?

You can vote if you want to
You've got all your life and mine
As long as you abuse it, never gonna lose it
Everything'll work out fine
I say, you can vote if you want to
You can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't vote and if they don't vote
Well they're all friends of mine

It's the safety vote!

[MacDougall]

I am voting Draconus. He's still bad for all the reasons that I said. Doubt he's on Team Wilgy since Wilgy made that big monumental case but it was all still rather valid imo.

[Matt]

Just roaming the Syndicate, trying to find some insight for my Justice League game I'm working on, and found this effin' beauty right here...this is literally like a miracle find...

Spoiler: show

Here's my take:

Info-Dumping that doesn't make things 1000% certain is a-ok. If you didn't out yourself in the process, and it allows a certain degree of uncertainty, then you're okay. The reason this uncertainty is important to me is that if someone says, "Look, I know <Name> is bad!" and you are... it's often at a point in the game where you can't say anything to save yourself, where with that information, it's now painfully obvious that you are bad. This absolutely ruins the game. In addition, if that player has played a spotless game previously, they wonder why they bother to play in the first place if that's how it's gonna go.

If you can role check and you find someone bad. Find a reason to lynch them. Get at them. Don't hesitate. Don't reference your role check. I don't know about you guys, but back in the good ole days of Mafia (raises Mafia cane) this was just accepted. You didn't out people like that, and if you did, there was a stigma attached to it. This seems to have disappeared over the years.

I'm not okay with someone with a role-checking role, right after the Night Post going "Okay, we should lynch <<Name>> because they are bad." I have seen this lately. I also don't think people with civ BTSC should be painfully obvious about their BTSC. You can be cute in the chatroom.

In terms of referencing messages sent between players, I remember in the Hobbit, Llama and I communicated with a message, and very subtlety confirmed it in thread. I used a word/phrase he had sent me (or vice versa) to confirm.

MM, a few times I believe you've asked me why Dom didn't immediately suss you on Day 6. Well, there's your answer per the underline.

Let's also keep in mind that it was what, Day 5 when Dom started asking about you and what the case against you was? So we can assume he wasn't really paying attention to you all that much. Yet, by Day 6, he listed you as bad twice and put you on his suspect list...twice. So a total of four times referencing you as bad. A day after he had no idea what the case on you was.

Here is Dom "trying to find reasons that MM is bad" as opposed to just saying "Yo MM is bad peeps! I know it!"...

My thinking you are bad is linked to two main things:
1) you admitting you aren't civ
2) your latching on to me. if you are truly neutral, why are you so concerned with lynching me?

What should a neutral role do, if he shouldn't care about voting/lynching anyone?

Why is Marshy so attached to the idea of lynching me? Why has he voted me early in the last two phases and only moved his vote to save himself? Why am I a "suspect"? Marsh claims to not be playing for anyone really, but that can't be the case if he is attached to "suspicions" like this. It makes no sense. He also cannot cite evidence of my baddiness. People are literally saying it's suspicious because I want to know why I'm suspicious and you don't find that strange?

I think you are a baddie who thought they found an easy lynch.

Below, we will see Dom "allow a certain degree of uncertainty" on MM, as Dom advises a responsible role checker to do...

@dom, you answered your own question. You asked what evidence I've brought forth, and you followed it up with the evidence I've brought forth.

You also stated a suspect list with my name on it. Ok, what is your case against me?

I know you're not happy that I've claimed neutral, yet am suddenly casing you. Whether such actions would benefit me or not are is my own problem. You can't decide that for me. You can decide whether to believe my claim, but based what you have said since that point, I have no reason to see that you don't believe me.

....I literally have argued that you aren't behaving like I'd expect you to if you were truly neutral. I posted about it a lot. Selective memory or bad?
Can't tell.

Can we please lynch him now town? I mean, did you read the miracle find at the top of this post? That golden Dom quote about info dumping? I mean, wow.

Please. Lynch Marmot 2016. Every vote counts!

[Ricochet]

ffs Matt

[juliets]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooo! WILGYYYS!

goddamn hyphothesis #2.

It is Night.

Ok peeps, good night and good luck. Hopefully a mafia member will die tonight, because of there surely being two teams *tells Sans to stop chuckling in the back*... erm yeah. See you tomorrow.

Sans!

Can I just take a second. I'm an arrogant piece of shit 95% of the time and it only pays off 1% of the time. This is really fucking great. RIPSYWB Wilgy.

Since you were baaaaaaad

Nicely called dh. I'm sorry I doubted you.

By all means look at me mac. I am a civ.

This post needs a twirl.

I don't understand why they wasted a night kill - we were about to lynch him.

Honest to God, I don't get why you have to say the scummiest things possible in this game. Baddies WASTING a kill on the other baddie team? Yeah, sorry a civilian didn't die for once.

You are overreacting to a simple question about why the baddies did what they did. It just seems odd to me and I wonder if there are shenanigans in there somewhere - I just can't see where. Of course I'm glad a civ didn't die. Why don't you stop making cracks about me - I'm tired of your pokey comments when you must know I am civ.

[Ricochet]

You are overreacting to a simple question about why the baddies did what they did. It just seems odd to me and I wonder if there are shenanigans in there somewhere - I just can't see where. Of course I'm glad a civ didn't die. Why don't you stop making cracks about me - I'm tired of your pokey comments when you must know I am civ.

First of all, I'm not overreacting. You cleary used the word "wasting" in regards to the last night kill. You didn't say you found it odd, you didn't say there might be shenanigans, you wondered why baddies wasted their night kill on a baddie, which could/should/would have normally been our job, via lynch. So when you use such words, I feel entitled to be startled by the implications. If there are two mafia teams, which last night basically confirmed, the team who had the night kill tonight didn't waste anything. They eliminated an opponent. Luckily, it wasn't one of us. So there you have it.

Do you find the night kill odd and shenanigan-like, because you think there's a single mafia team. Do you find the night kill odd and shenanigan-like, even if there are two mafia teams?

I actually didn't make any cracks about you in that post. I was super serious. Even if "I must know you are civ", I am second doubting myself like mad because of the game MO you embrace and because of posts like the previous one.

[juliets]

How often have you played with me Ricochet? The "game MO" I embrace this game is no different from the MO I embrace in other games.

I had assumed there was one team which is why I thought it was odd but I soon realized it just meant two teams. Like I said, it just seemed odd because we were obviously about to lynch him.

[Ricochet]

How often have you played with me Ricochet? The "game MO" I embrace this game is no different from the MO I embrace in other games.

I had assumed there was one team which is why I thought it was odd but I soon realized it just meant two teams.

No need for the "how many times have we played together / you know nothing, Jon Snow" appeal to meta. Your game MO can easily allow variations to suit your baddie MO. Picking up others' stronger cases can equally mean bandwagoning and coasting. Your pressure votes for lurkers can equally mean votes outside the pressure zone of bigger subjects. So I can't say I trust your game MO.

Like I said, it just seemed odd because we were obviously about to lynch him.

False. "Like you said" = baddies wasted a night kill.

[Ricochet]

Next up I'll probably do another round of ISOs (*crowd goes wooooooooooooooooooooooooo!*), based on Wilgys interactions - though I'll be the first to admit that, in case of two teams, this angle isn't conclusive. Then again, most of my originals ISOs had enough scumreads, independent of baddie interactions, so no biggie.

Also, DH, you the man for Wilgys hunt, but imma need you to give me some input on what the mafia team that doesn't have Wilgys in it looks like.

Also, Matt, I kno you busy working deep in your tunnel and shit, but imma need you to give me some input on what the mafia team that doesn't have Wilgys in it looks like. Or the team that had Wilgys in it, for that matter.

Also, Mac, I kno you hunting Draco and stuff, but imma need you to give me some input on what the mafia team that doesn't have Wilgys in it looks like or rather what the mafia team that has Wilgys in it, if Draco's not in it, looks like.

Funny fact, at least based on this game and THM, it seems the only way a baddie Wilgys can be erased from this world is if another baddie NK's him.

[Matt]

ffs Matt

Really? That is your response?

Are you even civ? Like, for real.

Btw, not that anyone gives a hoot, but Dom said he thought juliets was civvie twice, so I'm inclined to trust her despite saying "wasting" a night kill. Derp.

[Matt]

Rico, I don't know if this helps...

But after ISOing Wilgy last night, I came to believe he and Lorab were def on a team (if there are two teams). I'll post quotes in a bit, just woke up.

[Ricochet]

ffs Matt

Really? That is your response?

Are you even civ? Like, for real.

Btw, not that anyone gives a hoot, but Dom said he thought juliets was civvie twice, so I'm inclined to trust her despite saying "wasting" a night kill. Derp.

It's Day 9, there are two mafia teams near-confirmed, I want to hear multiple suspects, not the same loop.

Rico, I don't know if this helps...

But after ISOing Wilgy last night, I came to believe he and Lorab were def on a team (if there are two teams). I'll post quotes in a bit, just woke up.

It sort of doesn't, because Wilgys and LoRab are both dead. Suspects that are still alive should be preferably named.

[Ricochet]

Zebra was a civ alignment corrupter. What if there's a Godfather type role on the other team?

I don't feel like dismissing anything anymore, after seeing a non-Kubrick role that could also survive one lynch be revealed... like, crazy. We should have had at least 10 extra civs to deal with this voodoo mafia designs.

[DharmaHelper]

Zebra was a civ alignment corrupter. What if there's a Godfather type role on the other team?

I don't feel like dismissing anything anymore, after seeing a non-Kubrick role that could also survive one lynch be revealed... like, crazy. We should have had at least 10 extra civs to deal with this voodoo mafia designs.

The law of parity suggests that Kubrick is the direct mirror of Wilgy's spider role, so I would start with Motel Room being on the other team and go from there?

I do intend to dive once more into the filthy shitty muddy backwaters of case building but that was just a thought that occurred to me.

[Ricochet]

Zebra was a civ alignment corrupter. What if there's a Godfather type role on the other team?

I don't feel like dismissing anything anymore, after seeing a non-Kubrick role that could also survive one lynch be revealed... like, crazy. We should have had at least 10 extra civs to deal with this voodoo mafia designs.

The law of parity suggests that Kubrick is the direct mirror of Wilgy's spider role, so I would start with Motel Room being on the other team and go from there?

I do intend to dive once more into the filthy shitty muddy backwaters of case building but that was just a thought that occurred to me.

Spidey sort of counterbalances JJJ's role the most, but I agree it's a possibility. I definitely don't see the same team having Kubrick and Whatever-Its-Name.

[Ricochet]

Also, motel being Kubricks gets a 10% boost, considering that motel's only line of defense was "uh yeah so whoever is talking much about me being Kubrick, he's being Kirbyck". Well his major suspect just got killed. By the mafia. Welp.

[Matt]

ffs Matt

Really? That is your response?

Are you even civ? Like, for real.

Btw, not that anyone gives a hoot, but Dom said he thought juliets was civvie twice, so I'm inclined to trust her despite saying "wasting" a night kill. Derp.

It's Day 9, there are two mafia teams near-confirmed, I want to hear multiple suspects, not the same loop.

Rico, I don't know if this helps...

But after ISOing Wilgy last night, I came to believe he and Lorab were def on a team (if there are two teams). I'll post quotes in a bit, just woke up.

It sort of doesn't, because Wilgys and LoRab are both dead. Suspects that are still alive should be preferably named.

My suspect list...

MM -

Drac - Once town wises up and lynches MM, we can lynch Drac for being his teamie

bea - Possible Wilgy conspirator

Mac - Possible Wilgy conspirator

motel - Possibly Kubrick.

And ummm it sort of does, I would think? If we can decipher who is on what team, then we can try to decipher polls better and all that jazz?

Linki - DH - Lol, no response to the Dom thing? I must be going out of my mind.

I'll be roleclaiming Mr Invisible now...going to find those quotes despite it "not helping"...

[juliets]

Zebra was a civ alignment corrupter. What if there's a Godfather type role on the other team?

I don't feel like dismissing anything anymore, after seeing a non-Kubrick role that could also survive one lynch be revealed... like, crazy. We should have had at least 10 extra civs to deal with this voodoo mafia designs.

The law of parity suggests that Kubrick is the direct mirror of Wilgy's spider role, so I would start with Motel Room being on the other team and go from there?

I do intend to dive once more into the filthy shitty muddy backwaters of case building but that was just a thought that occurred to me.

Spidey sort of counterbalances JJJ's role the most, but I agree it's a possibility. I definitely don't see the same team having Kubrick and Whatever-Its-Name.

JJJ's role was a civ role though. I agree with DH that motel room could be the counter balance on the other team for Wilgy's role and then JJJ is the balance for the civs. That way all three factions have something the same for balance.

[Ricochet]

Zebra was a civ alignment corrupter. What if there's a Godfather type role on the other team?

I don't feel like dismissing anything anymore, after seeing a non-Kubrick role that could also survive one lynch be revealed... like, crazy. We should have had at least 10 extra civs to deal with this voodoo mafia designs.

The law of parity suggests that Kubrick is the direct mirror of Wilgy's spider role, so I would start with Motel Room being on the other team and go from there?

I do intend to dive once more into the filthy shitty muddy backwaters of case building but that was just a thought that occurred to me.

Spidey sort of counterbalances JJJ's role the most, but I agree it's a possibility. I definitely don't see the same team having Kubrick and Whatever-Its-Name.

JJJ's role was a civ role though. I agree with DH that motel room could be the counter balance on the other team for Wilgy's role and then JJJ is the balance for the civs. That way all three factions have something the same for balance.

A baddie role can counterbalance a civ role.

[Matt]

Wilgy quotes on Lorab...

Here, Wilgy makes a long bogus case on sig, here's just a snippet from that post...

So zebra was mafia, that most likely means JJJ wasn't on her team. I did see the idea that she picked him, but this makes little sense for day 1. I think it is worth looking into the players who after Rico flipped made comments, like saying how they hope he isn't as spammy or it would be better to have lynched a baddie. I find the first group to almost be trying to weaken Rico's credit thus giving him less of an opinion and basically neutering him, and the second group to just be scummy.

I think a few mafia members were on the Rico wagon, however I also think there is a good chance that either LoRab or Llama are scum.

I don't have many civ or scum reads right know, but I do think Long Con is a civilian, and I'm leaning scum on Llama. Know here is my question do you think the early snipping that Llama and Zebra did was fabricated? It was only a little bit, but I'm curious what people think of it.

I think with Zebra's lynch it also makes it less likely that Mac is on her team.

One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.

Where does the LoRab suspicion come from?

Here, Wilgy throws back into LLama's face his suss of Lorab...

I don't really have an opinion on Lorab at this point. I haven't found the case on her compelling. But I have noticed that sometimes when a person keeps getting almost-lynched and avoiding it, they turn out to be bad.

Something that's interesting is that you and Lorab had the same number of votes day 1 Llama.

Would what you said about her also apply to you?

And who can forget Wilgy's last minute swap on Day 3.5...he voted MM last second and then said this...

I'm feeling my life spiral out of control

I swapped to MM to break the tie... I figured as long as it wasn't JJJ or FZ.

But it had nothing to do with Lorab, eh? Right.

Anyway, I put those two on a team together, whether Rico thinks it helps or not. Derp.

[juliets]

Zebra was a civ alignment corrupter. What if there's a Godfather type role on the other team?

I don't feel like dismissing anything anymore, after seeing a non-Kubrick role that could also survive one lynch be revealed... like, crazy. We should have had at least 10 extra civs to deal with this voodoo mafia designs.

The law of parity suggests that Kubrick is the direct mirror of Wilgy's spider role, so I would start with Motel Room being on the other team and go from there?

I do intend to dive once more into the filthy shitty muddy backwaters of case building but that was just a thought that occurred to me.

Spidey sort of counterbalances JJJ's role the most, but I agree it's a possibility. I definitely don't see the same team having Kubrick and Whatever-Its-Name.

JJJ's role was a civ role though. I agree with DH that motel room could be the counter balance on the other team for Wilgy's role and then JJJ is the balance for the civs. That way all three factions have something the same for balance.

A baddie role can counterbalance a civ role.

Sure it can. Thats what i said. The three balance.

[DharmaHelper]

ffs Matt

Really? That is your response?

Are you even civ? Like, for real.

Btw, not that anyone gives a hoot, but Dom said he thought juliets was civvie twice, so I'm inclined to trust her despite saying "wasting" a night kill. Derp.

It's Day 9, there are two mafia teams near-confirmed, I want to hear multiple suspects, not the same loop.

Rico, I don't know if this helps...

But after ISOing Wilgy last night, I came to believe he and Lorab were def on a team (if there are two teams). I'll post quotes in a bit, just woke up.

It sort of doesn't, because Wilgys and LoRab are both dead. Suspects that are still alive should be preferably named.

My suspect list...

MM -

Drac - Once town wises up and lynches MM, we can lynch Drac for being his teamie

bea - Possible Wilgy conspirator

Mac - Possible Wilgy conspirator

motel - Possibly Kubrick.

And ummm it sort of does, I would think? If we can decipher who is on what team, then we can try to decipher polls better and all that jazz?

Linki - DH - Lol, no response to the Dom thing? I must be going out of my mind.

I'll be roleclaiming Mr Invisible now...going to find those quotes despite it "not helping"...

Sorry, I'm not willfully ignoring you or anything, I'm just studying, catching up on TV, eating lunch, and reading. I'll go respond to the Dom thing soon as I find out what it is.

[Ricochet]

Ooh, ooh, Matt, your ISO did help... remind me of something.

Can we go back and trace the "LC trusted Wilgy" claimers and, like, lynch their asses? (If we can toDay, that is. #lotteryticketwinSorsha)

[DharmaHelper]

Just roaming the Syndicate, trying to find some insight for my Justice League game I'm working on, and found this effin' beauty right here...this is literally like a miracle find...

Spoiler: show

Here's my take:

Info-Dumping that doesn't make things 1000% certain is a-ok. If you didn't out yourself in the process, and it allows a certain degree of uncertainty, then you're okay. The reason this uncertainty is important to me is that if someone says, "Look, I know <Name> is bad!" and you are... it's often at a point in the game where you can't say anything to save yourself, where with that information, it's now painfully obvious that you are bad. This absolutely ruins the game. In addition, if that player has played a spotless game previously, they wonder why they bother to play in the first place if that's how it's gonna go.

If you can role check and you find someone bad. Find a reason to lynch them. Get at them. Don't hesitate. Don't reference your role check. I don't know about you guys, but back in the good ole days of Mafia (raises Mafia cane) this was just accepted. You didn't out people like that, and if you did, there was a stigma attached to it. This seems to have disappeared over the years.

I'm not okay with someone with a role-checking role, right after the Night Post going "Okay, we should lynch <<Name>> because they are bad." I have seen this lately. I also don't think people with civ BTSC should be painfully obvious about their BTSC. You can be cute in the chatroom.

In terms of referencing messages sent between players, I remember in the Hobbit, Llama and I communicated with a message, and very subtlety confirmed it in thread. I used a word/phrase he had sent me (or vice versa) to confirm.

MM, a few times I believe you've asked me why Dom didn't immediately suss you on Day 6. Well, there's your answer per the underline.

Let's also keep in mind that it was what, Day 5 when Dom started asking about you and what the case against you was? So we can assume he wasn't really paying attention to you all that much. Yet, by Day 6, he listed you as bad twice and put you on his suspect list...twice. So a total of four times referencing you as bad. A day after he had no idea what the case on you was.

Here is Dom "trying to find reasons that MM is bad" as opposed to just saying "Yo MM is bad peeps! I know it!"...

My thinking you are bad is linked to two main things:
1) you admitting you aren't civ
2) your latching on to me. if you are truly neutral, why are you so concerned with lynching me?

What should a neutral role do, if he shouldn't care about voting/lynching anyone?

Why is Marshy so attached to the idea of lynching me? Why has he voted me early in the last two phases and only moved his vote to save himself? Why am I a "suspect"? Marsh claims to not be playing for anyone really, but that can't be the case if he is attached to "suspicions" like this. It makes no sense. He also cannot cite evidence of my baddiness. People are literally saying it's suspicious because I want to know why I'm suspicious and you don't find that strange?

I think you are a baddie who thought they found an easy lynch.

Below, we will see Dom "allow a certain degree of uncertainty" on MM, as Dom advises a responsible role checker to do...

@dom, you answered your own question. You asked what evidence I've brought forth, and you followed it up with the evidence I've brought forth.

You also stated a suspect list with my name on it. Ok, what is your case against me?

I know you're not happy that I've claimed neutral, yet am suddenly casing you. Whether such actions would benefit me or not are is my own problem. You can't decide that for me. You can decide whether to believe my claim, but based what you have said since that point, I have no reason to see that you don't believe me.

....I literally have argued that you aren't behaving like I'd expect you to if you were truly neutral. I posted about it a lot. Selective memory or bad?
Can't tell.

Can we please lynch him now town? I mean, did you read the miracle find at the top of this post? That golden Dom quote about info dumping? I mean, wow.

Please. Lynch Marmot 2016. Every vote counts!

I guess this is what you meant. In all seriousness I get the head-bashing feeling you must have regarding getting people to see the case on MM. FWIW, the pitfall of relying on this type of evidence (Meta, pseudo-info dumps) is that your interpretation of the events could be skewed. Recall if you will the case of FZ and Epignosis in Death Note, wherein after Russ flipped as civ, Epi used his flip and his pressuring of FZ to call FZ bad when she wasn't.

What I think is that MM is probably not Sorsha/Wilgy's teammate. If he is mafia, then he must in fact be on the other team. The one thing I can certainly conclude is that he is not a civvie,

[DharmaHelper]

Ooh, ooh, Matt, your ISO did help... remind me of something.

Can we go back and trace the "LC trusted Wilgy" claimers and, like, lynch their asses? (If we can toDay, that is. #lotteryticketwinSorsha)

I can do that after my lunch.

[Matt]

I think it's pretty conclusive that MM is bad.

Dom literally demonstrated all the traits of the responsible rolechecker he talked about in that quote I found.

From one day to the next, he went from "So what's the case on MM?" to "MM is bad. MM is bad. MM is on my suspect list. MM is on my suspect list."

Rico/DH/anyone else who refuses to lynch MM - Why don't you want to take the word of the role checker? Why?

Thank you for pointing out your understanding of my frustration, DH, but at this point, I'm beginning to think anyone who willfully ignores the ALARMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE against MM based on Dom the rolechecker...is bad. Seriously. Even Rico.

Anyway, I'm off today and tomorrow, and plan on doing a full fledged ISO on MM. I doubt anyone will read it, however after reading the first two or three pages of his ISO the other day, I realized something...

When crazy night 0 Rico was fake sussing Zebra, do we all remember who went balls to the wall defense of Zebra?

Oh, it was MM? Hmmm...food for thought.