Mafia Championship Scrimmage [END]

[sig]

silverwolf

As always

fyi I'm out of state so I'm mobile till probably night 1, posting will be lower then normal

You always vote for Silver day 1?

[Golden]

@Jay - any chance you could put a link in the OP to your description of each of the possible roles? For ease of reference.

[Sloonei]

I've never said I townread Marco. I said I disagree with your interpretation of one post he made. I have no read of him beyond that.

[Sloonei]

I've never said I townread Marco. I said I disagree with your interpretation of one post he made. I have no read of him beyond that.

This was directed at Frog.

[Golden]

Let's drown Golden out so he knows what to expect from MU.

Oh. It's your fault.

[Sloonei]

And to add on to that, I definitely think you're reading too far into the relationship you perceive between myself and Marco. I assure you it does not exist. He may well be scum who was trying to buddy me and/or throw some shade on sig, but that's not how I'm reading that one post of his, and beyond that I don't even know if there's anything else to your case.

I trust that you'll start looking in other directions once more people start posting things and I appreicate your output so far, but on this one issue you are not on the right track.

All of this is still @Frog

I am going to work now so this is the last you'll hear from me tonight.

[Golden]

147 posts before I even wake up lol. I imagine this is only a taster of what the actual thing will be like.

Catch up time

You should join me with who I'm voting for I'm sure you'll see the sense in my case.

Your vote is on me, you swine.

No u.

VOTE SIG

[Marco]

As my suspicion of Frog was because of my own misinterpretation, UNVOTE

What did you misinterpret and how has he changed your mind?

I retread the thread and I see where your misunderstanding was. You assumed my hypo claiming strategy revolved around mafia's privileged knowledge with respect to the existing power roles on a specific vertical/horizontal - where the claims would revolve around the specific unknown set of actual power roles. I'm saying- every power role should be hypoclaimed precisely because the vertical/horizontal is unknown to everyone except for scum.

Yep, I got that the second time around. It first appeared to me that you were operating from a position of knowledge, or as you called it "TMI".

I'm assuming we're playing with most championship rules where:
A) no last wills
B) claiming (fake or otherwise) is allowed
C) I've never heard of a rule where players aren't allowed to answer for others

Comments wrt above:
A) because there are no last wills, we must divulge our information and actions with appropriate cover
B) I'd urge you, especially if you rand village in the championships, to hypoclaim. You can expect quite a lot of straight up fake claiming, especially from town for decoy purposes
C) my vote remains on you for a few reasons, most notably to inform players of the existing buddying and butting in between you two (Marco and Sloonei)

B) How do the numbers hold up in this case? Do you think fake-claims would be easy enough to discern for mafia? Doesn't look like it should be unless your fake-claims are really bad but what do you think?
C) How is it buddying Sloonei to tell Sig that he misinterpreted Sloonei because I'm interested in Sig's actual response?

Extra notes-
Sloonei- you're asking me WHY I'm bring up your introductory troll posts.
The answer is simple - clearly Marco hard town read you based on that prior to defending you going into the second page of posts.
So my question to you, Sloonei, is this:
Clearly you town read Marco based on amswering for him.
Clearly Marco town reads you based on answering questions for you.
Aren't you skeptical of HOW Marco could possibly V read you based on your intro troll posts?
To me, it doesn't add up AT ALL.
And I'm VERY skeptical of this reciprocal relationship.
I'd like everyone to look into this as well.

Caution-
Only half the players have checked in so far
We must be cautious of TvT (Town vs. Town) arguments
Scum has NO incentive to solve, be mindful of this

Did the following post of mine actually give you the impression that I hard town-read Sloonei? Because I definitely didn't town-read, let alone hard, Sloonei.

Spoiler: show

Hi!

Hello.

Sig came in and tried to drag as much content out of things as he could. I'd like that if it didn't feel like such an effort to distance oneself from the label of low participation or scumminess.
Let's VOTE SIG

You'd usually like it but, don't this time? That doesn't make much sense.Also it is weird seeing how this is the beginning of day 1 so how would I be labeled as low participation if I hadn't had made any posts after my first one?

So why is it scummy that I'm posting and trying to get some content, since from where I sit it looks like your trying to stifle discussion.

He wasn't calling you out for low participation.

[Golden]

I’m not that sure IAWY’s entrance in the thread was towny, sig. But it’s not necessarily scummy either. Thanks for the meta advice on MP.

Can someone give us meta on Long Con? That’s a strange entrance they make there, but it feels like it’s their thing.

Sloonei, do you know sig well enough to consider their actions as scummy? I can see your points, but if it’s something sig does regardless of alignment we need to cut some slack. Sig gave thoughts on Sloonei and I can't say I disagree either.

Despite my no u vote (which was just in fun) I didn't find sig's entrance to be indicative of a scum sig (or, particularly, a town sig either).

[Golden]

Also, what did you find odd about LC's entrance, specifically?

[Zexy]

I lean town on Psittaciform’s first post. Because meta. Only a lean, though.

What Frog’s done in the beginning is scummy (strategy talk + RVS hypocrisy), but votes piled up a bit too easily which made me paranoid, mostly about Marco. And Frog’s accusations of Marco are really good and he brings up towny points, although he overdoes it with TMI at some point. And there’s some tunneling going on here. I have more trouble accepting a Marco/Sloonei team than just Marco being mafia in the two.

Yet when it comes to Sloonei VS Frog, while Sloonei looks like he wins the argument easily, there is paranoia that kicks in as well. Sloonei’s cases are a bit too perfect. If he is so good, assuming he’s town, it means he could be good scum as well…

That’s it for now, will be back later.

[Frog]

147 posts before I even wake up lol. I imagine this is only a taster of what the actual thing will be like.

Catch up time

It depends game to game amongst players.

We just ran a 17er on MU for reference of post count to expect.

I guess ~1500 posts D1 should be expected.

[Golden]

Sup! I randed Town so GG.

I'll read what you guys have posted so far, but insofar as tempo control to immediately move out of the RVS stage, I'm going to bring up a polarizing strategy related question:

I've JUST finished a C12 match on MU where many vanillagers were fake claiming TPRs, and fake counter claiming TPRs all over the place. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. Those that didn't work were because of a cognitive dissonance between players. With this in mind, if you are town reading a player, and they fake claim a power role, would you counter claim them?

Furthermore, with respect to claims, I'm planning on following this format every day:
If I'm X role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Y role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Z role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.

The Syndicate is not very used to fake claims. It's done a bit at RYM where I've played a bit. I have a couple of questions about this post

1) Are you referring to the concept of knowing someone has fake claimed because you ARE that role, and so your counter-claim would be real? If so, I think my choice of whether or not to counter claim would be entirely circumstantial. I would be trying to figure out why they fake claimed.

2) I like your format, but are there risks of greater exposure through the use of 'if I'm x, if I'm y'. Why is this better than simply saying 'If I am a role that can target, I did this N1, N2, N3'?

I may have a few questions like this throughout the game as I do want to get a got grip on the tactics around power role claiming, including how I can best aid the town in using it whenever I'm vanilla townie.

[Golden]

I don't feel like the content in the thread prior to your string of posts warranted everything you said.

I do agree with this, but do you think it is abnormal for sig?

[Golden]

What I didn't like about your posts is that they seemed like an easy opportunistic set of early observations when there wasn't a whole lot of content to analyze. It's a good and easy way to establish yourself early on as a town leader.

I don't think you are the kind of person who would base a read only on that anyway when so much more is going to happen.
I'd like to believe same goes for sig.

Sometimes very early reads are the most accurate. Frequently people make their biggest mistakes before they find their footing in the game. If sloonei really believed in his read, why would it be expected for him to 'not only rely on that'?

[Frog]

As my suspicion of Frog was because of my own misinterpretation, UNVOTE

What did you misinterpret and how has he changed your mind?

I retread the thread and I see where your misunderstanding was. You assumed my hypo claiming strategy revolved around mafia's privileged knowledge with respect to the existing power roles on a specific vertical/horizontal - where the claims would revolve around the specific unknown set of actual power roles. I'm saying- every power role should be hypoclaimed precisely because the vertical/horizontal is unknown to everyone except for scum.

Yep, I got that the second time around. It first appeared to me that you were operating from a position of knowledge, or as you called it "TMI".

I'm assuming we're playing with most championship rules where:
A) no last wills
B) claiming (fake or otherwise) is allowed
C) I've never heard of a rule where players aren't allowed to answer for others

Comments wrt above:
A) because there are no last wills, we must divulge our information and actions with appropriate cover
B) I'd urge you, especially if you rand village in the championships, to hypoclaim. You can expect quite a lot of straight up fake claiming, especially from town for decoy purposes
C) my vote remains on you for a few reasons, most notably to inform players of the existing buddying and butting in between you two (Marco and Sloonei)

B) How do the numbers hold up in this case? Do you think fake-claims would be easy enough to discern for mafia? Doesn't look like it should be unless your fake-claims are really bad but what do you think?
C) How is it buddying Sloonei to tell Sig that he misinterpreted Sloonei because I'm interested in Sig's actual response?

Extra notes-
Sloonei- you're asking me WHY I'm bring up your introductory troll posts.
The answer is simple - clearly Marco hard town read you based on that prior to defending you going into the second page of posts.
So my question to you, Sloonei, is this:
Clearly you town read Marco based on amswering for him.
Clearly Marco town reads you based on answering questions for you.
Aren't you skeptical of HOW Marco could possibly V read you based on your intro troll posts?
To me, it doesn't add up AT ALL.
And I'm VERY skeptical of this reciprocal relationship.
I'd like everyone to look into this as well.

Caution-
Only half the players have checked in so far
We must be cautious of TvT (Town vs. Town) arguments
Scum has NO incentive to solve, be mindful of this

Did the following post of mine actually give you the impression that I hard town-read Sloonei? Because I definitely didn't town-read, let alone hard, Sloonei.

Spoiler: show

Hi!

Hello.

Sig came in and tried to drag as much content out of things as he could. I'd like that if it didn't feel like such an effort to distance oneself from the label of low participation or scumminess.
Let's VOTE SIG

You'd usually like it but, don't this time? That doesn't make much sense.Also it is weird seeing how this is the beginning of day 1 so how would I be labeled as low participation if I hadn't had made any posts after my first one?

So why is it scummy that I'm posting and trying to get some content, since from where I sit it looks like your trying to stifle discussion.

He wasn't calling you out for low participation.

I'm on my phone atm, excuse the huge nested quotes and disorganized response:

Wrt fake claiming, it's decent enough to decoy. It also makes for decent claim battles. Hypo claiming is superior to fake claiming

Wrt you V reading Sloonei, and vice-versa - you both are defending each other and answering the others questions for the other. Why would you do that for a null or wolf read? You MuST town read each other, or be buddying each other for pockets, or power wolfing like a pack.

[Frog]

I lean town on Psittaciform’s first post. Because meta. Only a lean, though.

What Frog’s done in the beginning is scummy (strategy talk + RVS hypocrisy), but votes piled up a bit too easily which made me paranoid, mostly about Marco. And Frog’s accusations of Marco are really good and he brings up towny points, although he overdoes it with TMI at some point. And there’s some tunneling going on here. I have more trouble accepting a Marco/Sloonei team than just Marco being mafia in the two.

Yet when it comes to Sloonei VS Frog, while Sloonei looks like he wins the argument easily, there is paranoia that kicks in as well. Sloonei’s cases are a bit too perfect. If he is so good, assuming he’s town, it means he could be good scum as well…

That’s it for now, will be back later.

Lol, nothing is scummy- I'm suggesting optimal strategy and pointing out things to keep eyes on. Literally none of my points have been refuted on a logical basis- all of my perspectives, warrants and basis for claims remain intact. Instead we see Sloonei and Marco discrediting my content based on fallacious logic, often times side stepping my points entirely.

It's quite sad to see your scum game Zexy

Ultimately you're shoving a false narrative that straddles every side. I don't like it.

[Silverwolf]

Holy shit, I had no idea this game started!!

I have to catch up but I do want to let everyone know ika is out of town, and may not be able to post for a bit.

[Golden]

Sig, what is the nature of your ping on me? How strong is it and why is it there?

I like this post. You really don't let a single sentence slip, don't you?

I can confirm that sloonei doesn't let a single sentence slip.

But he knows it. I once got lynched day 2 for defending sloonei hard day 1, when he was in fact scum, because I thought he just looked like his town self in not letting sentences slip.

So I'm not letting it affect my judgment of sloonei either way.

[Golden]

I misliked his push on me

I love sig's neologisms.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Jay - any chance you could put a link in the OP to your description of each of the possible roles? For ease of reference.

I've added them in a spoiler to the very first post.

[Frog]

Sup! I randed Town so GG.

I'll read what you guys have posted so far, but insofar as tempo control to immediately move out of the RVS stage, I'm going to bring up a polarizing strategy related question:

I've JUST finished a C12 match on MU where many vanillagers were fake claiming TPRs, and fake counter claiming TPRs all over the place. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. Those that didn't work were because of a cognitive dissonance between players. With this in mind, if you are town reading a player, and they fake claim a power role, would you counter claim them?

Furthermore, with respect to claims, I'm planning on following this format every day:
If I'm X role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Y role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Z role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.

The Syndicate is not very used to fake claims. It's done a bit at RYM where I've played a bit. I have a couple of questions about this post

1) Are you referring to the concept of knowing someone has fake claimed because you ARE that role, and so your counter-claim would be real? If so, I think my choice of whether or not to counter claim would be entirely circumstantial. I would be trying to figure out why they fake claimed.

2) I like your format, but are there risks of greater exposure through the use of 'if I'm x, if I'm y'. Why is this better than simply saying 'If I am a role that can target, I did this N1, N2, N3'?

I may have a few questions like this throughout the game as I do want to get a got grip on the tactics around power role claiming, including how I can best aid the town in using it whenever I'm vanilla townie.

Sure thing, I'll throw together a more complete post before EOD.

Quick answers for now

1) fake claiming from any perspective. Simply claiming one role that you are not.

I agree that it's circumstantial- Which is why I asked in my intro post what you would all do in these types of COMMON situations in these setups. Most important is being able to play off of other players, and if there is a cognitive dissonance (I.e. Fundamental disagreement in approach and/or strategy), then there are certain plays that will be restricted with such players. I'd consider players able to identify purposes for decoys and beyond to be Level 3+ players.

2) the risks claiming every role and seperate actions for each? There's hardly a risk. E,g,
If I'm tracker I tracked player A to no where
If I'm cop I found inno result on player B

One of the above may be WRONG, which serves to protect that player even if they ARE a power role.

There is only benefit doing this. Again, I'll go more in depth, but certainly the larger risk is going to the grave without a set of clear breadcrumbs, and PRs playing without cover sucks major.

[Frog]

Holy shit, I had no idea this game started!!

I have to catch up but I do want to let everyone know ika is out of town, and may not be able to post for a bit.

Haha, nothing new wrt low post count Ika ;-)

Glad to see you've made it SW

[Silverwolf]

Holy shit, I had no idea this game started!!

I have to catch up but I do want to let everyone know ika is out of town, and may not be able to post for a bit.

Haha, nothing new wrt low post count Ika ;-)

Glad to see you've made it SW

Hi Frog, and welcome to the site!!

ika

This is pure RVS until I catch up.

[Silverwolf]

Holy shit, I had no idea this game started!!

I have to catch up but I do want to let everyone know ika is out of town, and may not be able to post for a bit.

Haha, nothing new wrt low post count Ika ;-)

Glad to see you've made it SW

Well, if he's posted, he's doing better than me. LOL

Getting caught up now.

[Marco]

I'm on my phone atm, excuse the huge nested quotes and disorganized response:

Wrt fake claiming, it's decent enough to decoy. It also makes for decent claim battles. Hypo claiming is superior to fake claiming

Yes, I meant hypo-claiming. But how easy would it be for mafia to discern the fake-claims according to you?

Wrt you V reading Sloonei, and vice-versa - you both are defending each other and answering the others questions for the other. Why would you do that for a null or wolf read? You MuST town read each other, or be buddying each other for pockets, or power wolfing like a pack.

Again, I did not answer for Sloonei. Sloonei made a read of Sig. Sig responded to that read but misinterpreted it and pushed on Sloonie. I pointed out that Sig misread the post. That can pass as defending, I guess, since I'm discrediting Sig's push. But it's onl because Sig misinterpreted Sloonei's post. If I had been answering for Sloonei, I would've answered the questions Sig asked, not pointed out that the questions weren't entirely valid. Besides, I was interested in what Sig's response to Sloonei's actual read would be.

Here's the post in question where you're saying I'm defending Sloonei and answering for him.

Spoiler: show

Hi!

Hello.

Sig came in and tried to drag as much content out of things as he could. I'd like that if it didn't feel like such an effort to distance oneself from the label of low participation or scumminess.
Let's VOTE SIG

You'd usually like it but, don't this time? That doesn't make much sense.Also it is weird seeing how this is the beginning of day 1 so how would I be labeled as low participation if I hadn't had made any posts after my first one?

So why is it scummy that I'm posting and trying to get some content, since from where I sit it looks like your trying to stifle discussion.

He wasn't calling you out for low participation.

Lol, nothing is scummy- I'm suggesting optimal strategy and pointing out things to keep eyes on. Literally none of my points have been refuted on a logical basis- all of my perspectives, warrants and basis for claims remain intact. Instead we see Sloonei and Marco discrediting my content based on fallacious logic, often times side stepping my points entirely.

I thought we had cleared this misunderstanding. As I told you, I discredit you because I had misinterpreted you. And then you corrected me so I rescinded my vote. It wasn't fallacious logic and I never side stepped your points. I just misread your strategy.

[Golden]

Hey, I hear we're playing a mafia game in here?

Yeah man! You in? You Mafia?

Yea to both, King Con.

Please don't self lynch bait

Imagine the setup further down the line and there is no way to prove your alignment (aka vanilla-esque game). By opening with a self-lynch bait and no way to 'clear' yourself, if you end up in F3 scenario, you're going to be untrustworthy from the beginning.

1. You are either lying about your alignment - untrustworthy
or
2. You are mafia - untrustworthy

It's a lose-lose type of situation.

I'm just going to ask you straight up:
1) Were you kidding about being in the mafia?
2) Tell me you're town.

What do you think of all my other posts?

Vote: Sloonei

It's very simple - tell me you're town in your own unique way

Frog is llama 2.0.

[Golden]

Doesn't this cause games to devolve into a bunch of counter-claiming and informed defending?

Yes. Which is quite foreign here, but in a game that is entirely team-wincon focussed and with no anti-infodumping rules, entirely makes sense.

We may not do it much, but it is definitely the world I'm running into at the champs.

[Frog]

I rescind my vote on Marco. Dude fights the harder battle of innocence instead of looking for a scapegoat. Lean V read on Marco for now

UNVOTE

[Golden]

Yep. This also works best in a setup you actually know. Right now, majority of us will be clueless about the actual setup. So, hypo-claiming this game is probably going to be an advantage to mafia more so than town. They have the liberty of knowing the exact setup we're playing on Day 1 whereas most townies are clueless. So, I'm quite against trying Frog's strategy this game. And I wonder why he'd suggest this strategy without actually knowing what setup we're playing.

I really like this post Marco.

What do you think of the 'if I'm a pr, I did this N1, n2, n3' etc. Wouldn't that lead to much better info later for the town and minimising the possibility of it giving too much info to mafia?

[Frog]

I'm no Llama, I'm a dolphin.

Fun dolphin facts-
We live to be 300 years old
We are quite skilled in the art of karaoke
We're suspicious of people calling us llamas

[Golden]

So, sig: what is TS? What do you think of Sloonei’s push on you? You defended, but what does that mean in regards to his alignment?

I disagree on the fake claiming part because in MU there actually a power role cover system where everybody claims all the roles so that the real ones get to “naturally” throw their real results in without standing out too much. And others fakeclaim to draw NKs.

Zexy is towny as flip.

Zexy + Sig = Town

Marco + Sloonei = scum teamish - On page 2 Marco randomly defends Sloonei. Lol. Obv slip is obvious.

At this point my gut read is to see it opposite. Zexy + sig scum, marco + sloonei town.

I didn't like the way Zexy minimised sloonei's sig read, and put in an early perspective that, essentially, no rational player should be reading sig off so little and if sloonei continues with the read he must be a scum looking for a bandwagon.

If you are going about making sure an early wagon doesn't build on your teammate, it's a subtle and clever way of doing it.

[Marco]

Yep. This also works best in a setup you actually know. Right now, majority of us will be clueless about the actual setup. So, hypo-claiming this game is probably going to be an advantage to mafia more so than town. They have the liberty of knowing the exact setup we're playing on Day 1 whereas most townies are clueless. So, I'm quite against trying Frog's strategy this game. And I wonder why he'd suggest this strategy without actually knowing what setup we're playing.

I really like this post Marco.

What do you think of the 'if I'm a pr, I did this N1, n2, n3' etc. Wouldn't that lead to much better info later for the town and minimising the possibility of it giving too much info to mafia?

I think Frog's suggestion works very well. Basically, we claim all the roles from all the possible setups.

If I'm Tracker, N1 X visited Y N2 Y visited Z, etc
If I'm Cop, N1 X inno N2 Y inno

As long as we're careful and think a bit before making our hypo claims, it shouldn't give mafia that much of a leg up on narrowing down our roles. Potentially, they could cross out 2-3 roles from your hypo claims because of information they know, but it should take a while before they narrow down people outright. And we get all the advantages of hypo-claiming.

[Golden]

"How did you think about going about it accurately if you don't know what setup we're playing?"

These kind of slips are nearly always bullsuit. You gotta do better than that. How would you expect Marco to have phrased the same sentence if he were town?

[Golden]

I'm liking frog. He's trying to solve the game. He's explained his reads well and I feel like they are genuine.

[Marco]

Quick semi-OT:
1. Can someone explain the color tagging here to me?
2. Is there any way to have the quoted post be linked in the quote box? The board I come from lets us attach the post number after the player's name - quote=ProfessorX;2837489. Convenient, especially when you want to cut out superfluous text but don't want to make tough for people to find out the context.

[Silverwolf]

VOTE IKA

Sorry, previous vote wasn't in this format. Still RVS until caught up, just messing around with getting vote right at this point.

[Golden]

A) no last wills

Do you mean, that you can't say who you targetted after a hammer or nk, or are you suggesting that you can't give a legacy post even if you simply suspect you may be up for death (rather than after death is certain)? Is this the MU champ rules?

[Marco]

A) no last wills

Do you mean, that you can't say who you targetted after a hammer or nk, or are you suggesting that you can't give a legacy post even if you simply suspect you may be up for death (rather than after death is certain)? Is this the MU champ rules?

Some boards allow you to make one final post after dying. There are some which let you set a "last will" post going into every phase which is revealed if you die that phase. I think he's referring to something like that.

[Silverwolf]

Why not. VOTE METALMARSH89 because it always feels good.

Well, now that you're here and self-voted, I don't feel like voting for you anymore. :P

More notably, I'd advise all Syndicateers to note that we have a hammer mechanic in this game, which is 100% new to any game on The Syndicate thus far (though I plan on utilizing it in some of my games going forward). I was OK with putting a single joke vote on you at the beginning, but I'm not OK with putting you any closer than that to a potential hammer, so...

VOTE A2THEZEBRA

to make her appear.

I encourage everyone to spread the "love" around with your votes, but be aware of the hammer function.

Just pointing out this post seems really cautious. Putting one vote on someone and then being afraid of hammer is weird. It takes 9 to lynch. I'm used to hammer votes. What you do here, is declare L-1 when you put the 8th vote on and the next person declares intent to hammer, giving the opportunity for the lynchee to give final reads and claim. We are nowhere near that so this is a really odd thing to worry about early game with one vote on a person.

-MP have you ever played in a game with the hammer function on another site?

-Why is metalmarsh voting for himself make you want to move your vote?

[Frog]

@Golden

The way voting works is automated.
When someone is lynched, thread is closed, the lynched person flips, the lynched person cannot talk any longer. There is no twilight posting.

When someone dies at night, they cannot reveal their actions.

What I meant by last will, is a type of 'legacy post' I suppose. On some mods and sites, you can submit a final message that will be revealed with your flip. In this way, TPRs have no need to breadcrumb or soft their info. The champs do not allow last wills/ legacy posts/ twilight posts.

[DrWilgy]

*Strolls into the club wearing a turtle on his head*

What is up familia? *Kisses Sig on the cheek* My name is DrWilgy and I am most definitely a doctor! Whole bunch of cute new faces here... I wonder how they taste!

So... Specifics... I have a bad gut feel about Sloon, and I don't think we should do that role claim thingy! It'll just lead to convolution and I think it will lead to the baddies hitting our power roles more so than help us.

Also! I mostly play on my phone... my phone died today... Ordered a new battery that'll be here in 2 days! I make no promises on how active I can be until then!

Au Revoir~!!

[Dyslexicon]

Well, now that you're here and self-voted, I don't feel like voting for you anymore. :P

Thanks for the info. I was asking particularly because of the hammer mechanic. As I might want to not have my vote count against anyone while I'm offline. eg: I vote for MovingPictures07 but he convinces me that he's town. I don't have any suspects for now, so I don't change my vote. While I'm away and offline, MP can get hammered.

Is it normal for you to not have any suspects or not at least someone worth putting pressure on? It seems strange to me, cause I feel very different about voting. Voting is good. All the cool kids are doing it.

Two things
1. MP didn't place his vote for Zebra

Should he?/What's the story?

So why is it scummy that I'm posting and trying to get some content, since from where I sit it looks like your trying to stifle discussion.

Nope.

I’m not that sure IAWY’s entrance in the thread was towny, sig. But it’s not necessarily scummy either. Thanks for the meta advice on MP.

Can someone give us meta on Long Con? That’s a strange entrance they make there, but it feels like it’s their thing.

Sloonei, do you know sig well enough to consider their actions as scummy? I can see your points, but if it’s something sig does regardless of alignment we need to cut some slack. Sig gave thoughts on Sloonei and I can't say I disagree either.

This post points in all directions.

Dyslexicon, what would you say your normal activity level in a game is?

Quite active. There was a time when I lurked a lot as scum, but that's been a while now. Otherwise it depends on how much time I have. Don't know how new format/people will factor in on this or any other aspect of my play. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

- Zexy asks something that has already kind of been answered by sig, but corrects himself since he didn't see that post, which is a shame cause I had a good cat gif for that one.

What do you define as RVS and why is it "not game solvey"?

As much as I find that debate potentially interesting, I don't think that is a very relevant question? How will it help you find mafia?

Please don't self lynch bait

Imagine the setup further down the line and there is no way to prove your alignment (aka vanilla-esque game). By opening with a self-lynch bait and no way to 'clear' yourself, if you end up in F3 scenario, you're going to be untrustworthy from the beginning.

1. You are either lying about your alignment - untrustworthy
or
2. You are mafia - untrustworthy

It's a lose-lose type of situation.

I'm just going to ask you straight up:
1) Were you kidding about being in the mafia?
2) Tell me you're town.

I understand none of this post and I think we have rather different playstyles.
Also, I'm untrustworthy by definition.
- Kisses.

I'll just note on this that Zexy is also prone to analyze anything he can and try to set himself up as a town leader, which can (at least partly) explain why he's going to Sig's defense here over that.

This is useful information. Does it usually take the form of the rather inconclusive maybe this, but maybe this? Zexy can clarify this too if he wants. Thing is he is commenting on a lot, but no stances. Not sure it's a problem, cause I definitely can relate to a point (probably doing it right now), but it is a thing I noticed.

If you are town it is always useful for you to help other townies to read you as town.

[Dyslexicon]

Well, Dizzy, all previous posts weren’t really about analysis on things… this would be your second and it involves only me, again. Hope I don’t end up being your tunnel target…

This is peculiar! I kind of love it, cause I'm confused now. Why do you think I'd tunnel you or tunnel at all? I'm merely joking around/taking RVS seriously.

I want a kiss. Unless you have diseases then I don't want a kiss.

Town.

Seems like an attempt to get through loopholes. I wouldn't allow it as a host.

You'd rather have the mafia NK pr before they have the chance to share useful information?Well that's a town mindset if I ever saw one!
+ It's totally fair play, but probably messy in this setup (which I'll get back to why I think)

@ sig: I would never encourage an early bandwagon. I just moved my vote off my top suspect at the moment (Frog) because 2 other people voted for him.

Why?? Why are people so afraid of voting. Wagons are fun. Give me wagons and lots of votes plz! Bloooood!
- Kisses

It's quite sad to see your scum game Zexy

Ultimately you're shoving a false narrative that straddles every side. I don't like it.

Didn't you hard call Zexy town like a paga ago?

[Golden]

2) the risks claiming every role and seperate actions for each? There's hardly a risk. E,g,
If I'm tracker I tracked player A to no where
If I'm cop I found inno result on player B

One of the above may be WRONG, which serves to protect that player even if they ARE a power role.

So you are proposing we would say what the result of each is as well?

I do understand the merit of this... eg, you protect the cop for a while at least, although the mafia rule out each person from being cop as they make an incorrect claim, which would happen 50% of the time.

I guess my concern here, and it may be because my brain simply can't process it all, is the number of TPRs where the mafia can critically analyse whether each statement is true or false, in respect of each track. I'm trying to solve how we deal with a particular situation as it arises.

Take jailkeeper or doctor as an example. If there is no nightkill on any particular night, and the mafia know a jailkeeper or doctor is a role in the set up, they might be able to pinpoint who the jailkeeper or doctor is by simply stating the mafia target correctly.

Alternatively, are there particular roles (like jailkeeper or doctor) that we wouldn't list at all? Would there be any benefit in town to it? Is this just about figuring out which roles we should all be doing this for, that assist town long term (eg cop) but don't have as bigger risk of immediately outing someone.

[DrWilgy]

OH! and before I leave!

YOLO VOTE [NO LYNCH]

(did I do that right boss?)

[Silverwolf]

Sup! I randed Town so GG.

I'll read what you guys have posted so far, but insofar as tempo control to immediately move out of the RVS stage, I'm going to bring up a polarizing strategy related question:

I've JUST finished a C12 match on MU where many vanillagers were fake claiming TPRs, and fake counter claiming TPRs all over the place. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. Those that didn't work were because of a cognitive dissonance between players. With this in mind, if you are town reading a player, and they fake claim a power role, would you counter claim them?

Furthermore, with respect to claims, I'm planning on following this format every day:
If I'm X role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Y role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Z role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.

Nope, I wouldn't cc but I get why some would for WIFOM. I have mixed feeling on WIFOMing results like this. Part of me wonders why it is necessary and part of me understands it's a protown thing to do. I really don't want to discuss this topic any further as it seems somewhat helpful to scum as well.

[a2thezebra]

What's good? I ate some brownies last night that still haven't completely worn off.

[Silverwolf]

I’m not that sure IAWY’s entrance in the thread was towny, sig. But it’s not necessarily scummy either. Thanks for the meta advice on MP.

Can someone give us meta on Long Con? That’s a strange entrance they make there, but it feels like it’s their thing.

Sloonei, do you know sig well enough to consider their actions as scummy? I can see your points, but if it’s something sig does regardless of alignment we need to cut some slack. Sig gave thoughts on Sloonei and I can't say I disagree either.

sig is usually an active player, but I can't recall any time he's made that many early posts with so little content preceding him.

Is this something you think of as a scum tell for sig or just unusual playstyle behavior? Also, did you agree or disagree with sig's observations?

[Marco]

Format for copy/pasting if and when people want to hypo.

Town Jailkeeper N1 ; N2 ; N3
Town Cop N0 ; N1; N2 ; N3
Town Doctor N1 ; N2 ; N3
Town Tracker N1 ; N2 : N3
Town Vigilante N1 ; N2 ; N3
Town Bodyguard N1 ; N2 ; N3
2-Shot Town Jailkeeper N1 ; N2 ; N3
Town Even Night Vig N2 ; N4