Mafia Championship Scrimmage [END]

[Frog]

AHHH FML - Personal situations might get heavy this week after tonight beyond. Can town please steamroll? Please? focuson the 4 low posters i suggested plox.

Hope everything is OK.

Beautiful woman just moved over to my country tonight after breaking up with the best man of someone I was a best man of. Yes, its a nuts web, two weddings.

Best Man 1 = dating sister of groom
I am bestman 2 = groom , best man 1 was dating sister of groom for 10 years

sister and bestman 1 break up and sister moves to dubai... tonight

It's going to be a slingshot, I already said what I was going to do to. Zexy is usually very good at this already whether or not she knows it. Someone MUST go bech before EOD implicit or explicit.

[Tangrowth]

Minorly convinced TBH.

Telll meHOW you are town in your uniq ue way please. preferably 1 minute to go.

Okay, sure.

I am town because that is what I randed at the start of the game. I have been demonstrating that I am town via the following ways:

1) I have been hunting for mafia in literally every other player of this game to the best of my ability, and will continue to do so. (FYI a new rainbow list is upcoming, after I perform some reevaluation.)

2) Although I will aggressively pursue someone I think is mafia, I am also always willing to reevaluate my suspicions as well as work in the town's best interests. I will be clear as possible with regards to my suspicions, and pursue them, but I feel it is best when players coordinate and collaborate as well. I've seen too many towns collapse because they distrusted each other and never gave each other a chance.

3) Effort. I can try all I want to replicate this as mafia, and my post count isn't indicative of my alignment, but when push comes to shove town MP exudes effort in a way that mafia MP cannot match. So far, given my RL constraints, I think I've demonstrated this.

Meh - coordinated defense. I was expecting a random "FU" gif tbh. You play serious which is awesome. You're a high level player which is good to know for here on out.

Haha, if you were expecting an "FU" gif from me, you still have a lot to learn about me. Clearly I have the same progress to make with you. But that's what made the prospect of this game so exciting.

[Frog]

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Anyway, thoughts and stuff after catching up.

Suspicious of MP. I did not find his push on Ika convincing at all, and I found it to be an easy push at the time. He is more so defending why it's reasonable for him to suspect Ika than actually accounting for why Ika is scum. At least that is what I see. There's also other things that makes little sense to me (see my catch up with questions and stuff).

VOTE MOVING PICTURES

Noting also that he is softly defending Golden. Don't know what this says about Golden, he may be town if MP is scum, but I'm not sure.

So in the Silver and Ika vs MP and Golden think, I'm most inclined to think MP as scum. Golden I'm not sure of, sometimes I think town and then something happens and I'm doubting again. Silver seems very town to me. Lol me if I'm wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ika does seem town to me, he reads fearless town, but less sure of this read as there is not so much to go on here.

---

I really really really want to slap PSI and Soneji with a cod right now. They need to get into this game right meow. For reals.

---

Conflicted on sig. He did look a lot better last he posted, but there's not that much to go on.

As for the case on Zebra, I don't know her. The case is reasonable, and she could be scum. What makes me doubt is my doubt about some of the people advocating her lynch.

Sloonei is apparently having time contrains. That sucks, cause it doesn't make it easier to read him. Not a town read for me right now, but can't really say he is scum either.

I want Marco to post more thoughts on players and less mechanic/strategic analysis. Still reads town.

^I could say the same for Frog, but you know, Frogs be jumping and I'm just going to let them.

Btw, I skipped a lot of the talk about the lurker lynch plan, and all that. Not interested. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And I think I'll actually attempt do a rainbow list, cause they are pretty. But I rarely agree with myself once they are posted. I'm all

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

lel - TBH im bedazzled - Ika and/or silverwolf w ith abit of elbow grease is a simple lynch whether town or scum. But it's a weak player push. I've been opposing it precisely because of that.

Rest assured - I WILL resolve multiple players tomorrow

I'd prefer if we coordinated amongst the 4 I suggested for now.

I must just have different experience so far with ika and Silverwolf than you have had.

In Turf Wars, their first game here, ika was mafia and Silverwolf was town. ika made it until Day 6 until he was lynched; Silverwolf was then NKed that Night. I highly doubt she was going to be mislynched.

In E.S.T., their second game here, both ika and Silverwolf were town. Silverwolf was NKed Night 2, again because she was a largely consensus town read. ika made it to endgame without dying.

In neither game did ika show any signs of being an "easy mislynch"; if anything, he lasted longer than I otherwise thought he would considering his playstyle.

At some point I'll ISO the 4 you mentioned. You haven't changed your mind on those, yeah?

Interest. Most sites just polciy lynch them. Lel.

Spoiler: show

Meh - o just realized majjority of you (certainly not all of you) require basic argumentation.

Spoiler: show

I feel like we have a ton of new players coming into the game but the level of player improvement is very low. It is my hope that this is simply because players don't really know where to start. Answering the question "How do you get better" is a tough one to tackle. For that reason I decided to make a few guides that should provide players with tools to improve their play. This guide will cover communication, perspective, and strategy. Perspective and strategy portions will be posted later. If your idea of scum hunting is learning that 'scum do this' then hunting for that you will never be successful. To really grow as a player you need to understand these 3 factors and analyze things independently for each situation and player. A good portion of this guide is some very basic shit you probably learned in grade school but I am focusing on it because it is the foundation that will determine how effective you could be in the game.

I. Communication

It is absolutely critical to be able to convey information to others in a way that they will understand, accept, and push your win condition forward. It is equally critical to understand exactly what other players are communicating and 'why'. If you are town you will be able to effectively convey your reads, identify scummy posts and prevent them from mislynching you. If you are scum you will be able to mislynch the town, keep them off balance, and prevent slipping. If these are things you want to improve on this section should greatly help.

This portion is focused on communication. There are aspects of scum hunting in it but that is something that will be covered in mcuh more detail as I get into Perspective and Strategy. If you would like to contribute to improve this guide or contribute to the other portions let me know.

Spoiler : 1. Basic parts of an argument : Click to show


A- Claim

The Claim is the point you are trying to make. This is what you are trying to persuade your reader to accept.

B- Warrant
This is the common belief you are using to pivot your audience into accepting your argument. An example would be:
In order to argue that murder is wrong by saying "It is terrible to end a human life" the reader must first value a human life. If they do not value a human life your entire argument will have no impact.

C- Grounds
This is a sub argument to provide value to the warrant. It is also the claim in the new argument. If you know that your warrant is not a common belief you must first attempt to establish the value of that warrant in order to present an argument of any value. An example would be:
In order to argue that abortion is wrong because "A fertilized egg counts as a human life and taking a human life is wrong" the reader must first agree that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.
If this warrant is not accepted the grounds would be an argument to establish that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.

So to summarize you can see the basic argument format and how it chains into sub arguments.

Claim- Pollution is bad
Warrant- It damages the environment
Grounds / Sub argument claim- Damage to the environment hurts your health
--------------Sub argument warrant- Your health is important
--------------Sub argument grounds / Sub argument claim- Worse health means a shorter life
----------------------------------------------Sub argument warrant- A shorter life means less time to do the things you enjoy
----------------------------------------------Sub argument grounds- Blah blah blah

And so on.

Being able to identify these factors allows you to effectively argue. Without recognizing this pattern you will end up having frustrating discussions that get nowhere; and if you have not been using this pattern it’s probably why nobody takes you seriously in day chat. If you find that you are unable to use it when pushing a scum read then chances are that you do not have a real read.
The piratical application of this is that you need to identify common ground with your readers when presenting an argument. When interacting with another players argument you need to force them to establish a claim and a warrant for their point to have value. If they do not you have to either draw out why their argument holds no value, agree to disagree and move away to a new topic that will be productive.

Spoiler : 2. Functions : Click to show



A- Appeals

Logos- Appeal to Logic "Steel is stronger than iron, so for a stronger frame we should use steel"
Pathos- Appeal to Emotion "Your donation of only 5$ a year can save the lives of 20 poor starving children"
Ethos- Appeal to Credibility "As a doctor, I am qualified to tell you that this course of treatment will likely generate the best results."

These are functions that you would use in your warrant and grounds. Any large argument will use multiple of these functions. To be effective stick to Logos as much as possible and use Ethos by explaining exactly why your reasoning is correct. Use logical arguments to show that a player is scum and only appeal to credibility by explaining the scum hunting technique you are using to logically point out that the player could be scum. If you try to argue about how good you are it just turns into a pissing contest.

B- Fallacy's

By learning to recognize these patterns you can find some slips and identify fake arguments. Almost every complex argument will have some level of fallacy in it; this is because at some point in almost every argument there is a logic jump. For that reason do not assume just because an argument contains a bit of fallacy that it is invalid. I will cover a few of the most common ones but to understand them at a greater level I strongly recommend watching This Series. There is 3 times as many outlined in this series.
The value in understanding this as town is that it allows you to recognize players ‘painting’ a target a scummy as opposed to scum hunting. This counters scums ability to act as a power wolf and lead mislynches against the town, as well as provides a potential alignment tells.
The value in understanding this as scum is that it gives you an idea of methods to avoid in order to gain more town cred and avoid slips. It can also provide you with more ways to manipulate players who do not understand these methods.

Straw Man- Setting up a weak version of the opponents argument in order to discredit it
Red Herring- This is when someone draws the argument into a tangent proving that the tangent is correct and insinuating that it either proves their point or draws away from the original point.
False Dichotomy- This is when a player trys to force you into choosing between 1 of 2 choices. Usually with one of them being obviously ridiculous
Slippery Slope- Claiming that A will start a chain reaction leading to B then C then D and D has a dire consequence
Ad Hominem- This is when a player attacks a person in order to discredit their argument as opposed to addressing the argument
Hasty Generalization- This is basically stereotypes.
Fallacy of Accident- This is usually when someone trys to cover a specific situation by citing a general rule when the situation is an exception to the rule
Missing the point- The premises of the argument does not support the conclusion.
Post Hoc- Assuming because B came after A, A caused B
Weak Analogy-An analogy is not strong enough to support a conclusion
Begging the Question- This is basically circular reasoning
Appeal to Pitty- Forcing someone to feel sorry to accept a conclusion
Appeal to Ignorance- If it can not be proven it must be false; or If it can not be disproved it must be true
Appeal to Unqualified Authority- Adding Ethos to an argument from a bias or unqualified source.

C- Tone
Different tones have different implications. Learning to read and use these will increase your ability to understand and manipulate chat. You should keep in mind that this type of reading cannot be used without an understanding of the players posting style and their perspective. If you try to use these independent of that analysis you can easily screw yourself.

Confidence and Doubt:
When you see a player who expresses total certainty recognize that it could reflect hidden information. Absolute certainty is more often a tone expressed by scum unless it is supported by reasoning that backs up this level of certainty. Keep in mind that certainty reflects confidence but confidence does not reflect certainty. Its a grey line you have to analyze.
Team Scum show a gap between their level of confidence and the level of certainty that should be reflected by their reasoning. This is because team scum already know who the scum team is and have to fake their reads on players forcing them to guess at exactly how confident they should be about a read. You can often find this game is the largest when town reading a player because many scum players put less thought into town reading a slot than they would to scum reading a player.
When you see a player express doubt on what should be absolutely certain it can reflect deception. A good example of this is when scum claims a fake night action. A town player would know without doubt that they received the night action. Scum tend to express the read a little more softly leaving doubt in the situation.
When a team scum gets pressured with a night peek they often express doubt. Instead of questioning the players motivations they immediately move to get town to question the read by referencing framer or witch possibilities. This especially true in setups where there is little or no opposing scum at play because they pretty much know the slot scum reading them is town. Their response is focused from that perspective. Town may also do this if they town read the slot that is scum reading them but they are more likely to question the players alignment because they know they are town and the subconscious assumption is that a player pushing them may be scum.
As scum you can spread doubt to create a bias against future issues. For example, you could take time to discredit night actions which will give your team mates an advantage down the road when faced with a night action claim by seeding the thought in the minds of the players ahead of time. This can backfire if your reasoning is poor.

Aggressive / Passive Behavior:
Useful for identifying a players level of certainty and doubt. If you want to identify how certain a player is about an issue aggressively cast doubt and challenge the reasoning behind a belief. You can even not direct the comment at him and instead address the player base to see if he comes out to address the issue. Keep in mind that players natural level of aggression when using this.
Anger as a form of aggression is a common ‘go to’ response for players that deflect other emotions into anger as a defensive mechanism. Usually as a result to frustration or hitting a subject the player does not want to talk about when a reaction to a push.
Use aggression to focus attention on a specific issue or to distract from something. If some townie trys to crumb something and does a shit job of it you can blow up about some issue and it will draw focus away from it.
As scum you can use aggression to beguile reads. Its much more of an Ethos appeal than anything else and with that in mind you can effectively replace logic with emotion and push targets doubt. This is especially true if you are able to identify players who try hard to appear ‘skilled’ as that it will force them to choose between saving face and being honest.
You can often deflect aggression from players pushing on you if you respond with passive behavior.

Apathy:
This can be an indicator when it is in contrast with a player who is dedicated unless intentionally expressed. Mostly telling when associated with reads or the death of a player. Finding when a slot unintentionally expresses apathy can be very useful.
As scum you can use apathy to offset pushes. Simply responding to a push on you by expressing that you do not care how they read you dodges responding and leaves them with nothing to read.
As either alignment you can use apathy to discredit focus. If a player pushes a subject simply pushing that you do not care about the results of the push carries weight. I have sometimes used this to avoid pressure on a subject I didn’t want to talk about.

Spoiler : 3- Application of Communication : Click to show

If you understand exactly how to communicate and understand others communication the question exactly what should you communicate and why? I am going to totally ignore some of the basics and jump to some applications that are extremely useful but underused. Keep in mind that you still have to understand the players and their perspectives to effectively use these.

Insulating a town read from a scum night kill- If you are able to pick up that Player X is probably a Doctor there are 2 ways to play it out. You can try to pull attention off the slot or you can scum read the slot. From the scum perspective (See perspectives in part two) it makes sense for scum to target players they think they cannot lynch. By scum reading the slot you can provide incisive for scum to leave the slot alive.

Town read a slot as a poke to see if it is scum- This is something that catches many scum off guard. By town reading them with flawed reasoning you can watch their reaction which is usually much less filtered than if you scum read them. Be careful not to use this on players that may be town and desperate for pressure relief. This works particularly well on slots that are under pressure even if you just push a conversation change. An innocent man will push to stay on the subject of his guilt to clear himself while a guilty man will gratefully accept a change of subject to avoid getting caught.

Scum read a slot to judge reaction of another player with weak reasoning- Sometimes you can identify a scum trying to just ‘paint’ a target as scummy as opposed analyzing to identifying their alignment. If you present flawed reasoning and push for them to give feedback on your reasoning you may catch them working to justify your bad reasoning.

Aggressively address the town opposing a belief you hold to be true to identify who thinks the same as you- If done correctly you can end up identifying exactly which players are willing to confidently defend that point.

In general you should take the time to consider what you are pushing and why. What are other people pushing and why? If you are struggling to convey a message cut back to the basics. Find common ground and build on it. If you are not sure what to post and need content to analyze create that content. Gambits do not have to be hard 'I have this feedback' nonsene that beguiles town. They can be soft and simple plays.

Spoiler : Case Examples : Click to show
This is going to be delayed until the next to sections are done. When trying to write it up I found it impossible to avoid addressing strategy and perspective


Nothing in Mafia is independently a 'scum tell' until you break into mechanical analysis which will be covered in a later guide. I believe that this will be viewed as the "Least useful" portion of the guide I am working on but I will also argue that it is the most important. Until you are able to effectively communicate and identify other players communication you are crippled in your ability to play regardless of how good you are at identifying scum.

What is this from?

This is from SC2mafia, though to be honest, it's a guide that Helz and I, and other are com pleting irrespective of sites. I'm in the process of working on mechanical strategy ATM.|

You're more likely town than not. Less show more umph.

What do you mean?

I'm expecting a solid FOS from you after so much pazzaz.

What's FOS? Lol.

FOS = Finger of Suspicion - it's pretty old world unless you've been playing mafia/werewolf since before 2010. It means providing a case of doubt on a particular player.

[Frog]

Spoiler: show

Meh - o just realized majjority of you (certainly not all of you) require basic argumentation.

Spoiler: show

I feel like we have a ton of new players coming into the game but the level of player improvement is very low. It is my hope that this is simply because players don't really know where to start. Answering the question "How do you get better" is a tough one to tackle. For that reason I decided to make a few guides that should provide players with tools to improve their play. This guide will cover communication, perspective, and strategy. Perspective and strategy portions will be posted later. If your idea of scum hunting is learning that 'scum do this' then hunting for that you will never be successful. To really grow as a player you need to understand these 3 factors and analyze things independently for each situation and player. A good portion of this guide is some very basic shit you probably learned in grade school but I am focusing on it because it is the foundation that will determine how effective you could be in the game.

I. Communication

It is absolutely critical to be able to convey information to others in a way that they will understand, accept, and push your win condition forward. It is equally critical to understand exactly what other players are communicating and 'why'. If you are town you will be able to effectively convey your reads, identify scummy posts and prevent them from mislynching you. If you are scum you will be able to mislynch the town, keep them off balance, and prevent slipping. If these are things you want to improve on this section should greatly help.

This portion is focused on communication. There are aspects of scum hunting in it but that is something that will be covered in mcuh more detail as I get into Perspective and Strategy. If you would like to contribute to improve this guide or contribute to the other portions let me know.

Spoiler : 1. Basic parts of an argument : Click to show


A- Claim

The Claim is the point you are trying to make. This is what you are trying to persuade your reader to accept.

B- Warrant
This is the common belief you are using to pivot your audience into accepting your argument. An example would be:
In order to argue that murder is wrong by saying "It is terrible to end a human life" the reader must first value a human life. If they do not value a human life your entire argument will have no impact.

C- Grounds
This is a sub argument to provide value to the warrant. It is also the claim in the new argument. If you know that your warrant is not a common belief you must first attempt to establish the value of that warrant in order to present an argument of any value. An example would be:
In order to argue that abortion is wrong because "A fertilized egg counts as a human life and taking a human life is wrong" the reader must first agree that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.
If this warrant is not accepted the grounds would be an argument to establish that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.

So to summarize you can see the basic argument format and how it chains into sub arguments.

Claim- Pollution is bad
Warrant- It damages the environment
Grounds / Sub argument claim- Damage to the environment hurts your health
--------------Sub argument warrant- Your health is important
--------------Sub argument grounds / Sub argument claim- Worse health means a shorter life
----------------------------------------------Sub argument warrant- A shorter life means less time to do the things you enjoy
----------------------------------------------Sub argument grounds- Blah blah blah

And so on.

Being able to identify these factors allows you to effectively argue. Without recognizing this pattern you will end up having frustrating discussions that get nowhere; and if you have not been using this pattern it’s probably why nobody takes you seriously in day chat. If you find that you are unable to use it when pushing a scum read then chances are that you do not have a real read.
The piratical application of this is that you need to identify common ground with your readers when presenting an argument. When interacting with another players argument you need to force them to establish a claim and a warrant for their point to have value. If they do not you have to either draw out why their argument holds no value, agree to disagree and move away to a new topic that will be productive.

Spoiler : 2. Functions : Click to show



A- Appeals

Logos- Appeal to Logic "Steel is stronger than iron, so for a stronger frame we should use steel"
Pathos- Appeal to Emotion "Your donation of only 5$ a year can save the lives of 20 poor starving children"
Ethos- Appeal to Credibility "As a doctor, I am qualified to tell you that this course of treatment will likely generate the best results."

These are functions that you would use in your warrant and grounds. Any large argument will use multiple of these functions. To be effective stick to Logos as much as possible and use Ethos by explaining exactly why your reasoning is correct. Use logical arguments to show that a player is scum and only appeal to credibility by explaining the scum hunting technique you are using to logically point out that the player could be scum. If you try to argue about how good you are it just turns into a pissing contest.

B- Fallacy's

By learning to recognize these patterns you can find some slips and identify fake arguments. Almost every complex argument will have some level of fallacy in it; this is because at some point in almost every argument there is a logic jump. For that reason do not assume just because an argument contains a bit of fallacy that it is invalid. I will cover a few of the most common ones but to understand them at a greater level I strongly recommend watching This Series. There is 3 times as many outlined in this series.
The value in understanding this as town is that it allows you to recognize players ‘painting’ a target a scummy as opposed to scum hunting. This counters scums ability to act as a power wolf and lead mislynches against the town, as well as provides a potential alignment tells.
The value in understanding this as scum is that it gives you an idea of methods to avoid in order to gain more town cred and avoid slips. It can also provide you with more ways to manipulate players who do not understand these methods.

Straw Man- Setting up a weak version of the opponents argument in order to discredit it
Red Herring- This is when someone draws the argument into a tangent proving that the tangent is correct and insinuating that it either proves their point or draws away from the original point.
False Dichotomy- This is when a player trys to force you into choosing between 1 of 2 choices. Usually with one of them being obviously ridiculous
Slippery Slope- Claiming that A will start a chain reaction leading to B then C then D and D has a dire consequence
Ad Hominem- This is when a player attacks a person in order to discredit their argument as opposed to addressing the argument
Hasty Generalization- This is basically stereotypes.
Fallacy of Accident- This is usually when someone trys to cover a specific situation by citing a general rule when the situation is an exception to the rule
Missing the point- The premises of the argument does not support the conclusion.
Post Hoc- Assuming because B came after A, A caused B
Weak Analogy-An analogy is not strong enough to support a conclusion
Begging the Question- This is basically circular reasoning
Appeal to Pitty- Forcing someone to feel sorry to accept a conclusion
Appeal to Ignorance- If it can not be proven it must be false; or If it can not be disproved it must be true
Appeal to Unqualified Authority- Adding Ethos to an argument from a bias or unqualified source.

C- Tone
Different tones have different implications. Learning to read and use these will increase your ability to understand and manipulate chat. You should keep in mind that this type of reading cannot be used without an understanding of the players posting style and their perspective. If you try to use these independent of that analysis you can easily screw yourself.

Confidence and Doubt:
When you see a player who expresses total certainty recognize that it could reflect hidden information. Absolute certainty is more often a tone expressed by scum unless it is supported by reasoning that backs up this level of certainty. Keep in mind that certainty reflects confidence but confidence does not reflect certainty. Its a grey line you have to analyze.
Team Scum show a gap between their level of confidence and the level of certainty that should be reflected by their reasoning. This is because team scum already know who the scum team is and have to fake their reads on players forcing them to guess at exactly how confident they should be about a read. You can often find this game is the largest when town reading a player because many scum players put less thought into town reading a slot than they would to scum reading a player.
When you see a player express doubt on what should be absolutely certain it can reflect deception. A good example of this is when scum claims a fake night action. A town player would know without doubt that they received the night action. Scum tend to express the read a little more softly leaving doubt in the situation.
When a team scum gets pressured with a night peek they often express doubt. Instead of questioning the players motivations they immediately move to get town to question the read by referencing framer or witch possibilities. This especially true in setups where there is little or no opposing scum at play because they pretty much know the slot scum reading them is town. Their response is focused from that perspective. Town may also do this if they town read the slot that is scum reading them but they are more likely to question the players alignment because they know they are town and the subconscious assumption is that a player pushing them may be scum.
As scum you can spread doubt to create a bias against future issues. For example, you could take time to discredit night actions which will give your team mates an advantage down the road when faced with a night action claim by seeding the thought in the minds of the players ahead of time. This can backfire if your reasoning is poor.

Aggressive / Passive Behavior:
Useful for identifying a players level of certainty and doubt. If you want to identify how certain a player is about an issue aggressively cast doubt and challenge the reasoning behind a belief. You can even not direct the comment at him and instead address the player base to see if he comes out to address the issue. Keep in mind that players natural level of aggression when using this.
Anger as a form of aggression is a common ‘go to’ response for players that deflect other emotions into anger as a defensive mechanism. Usually as a result to frustration or hitting a subject the player does not want to talk about when a reaction to a push.
Use aggression to focus attention on a specific issue or to distract from something. If some townie trys to crumb something and does a shit job of it you can blow up about some issue and it will draw focus away from it.
As scum you can use aggression to beguile reads. Its much more of an Ethos appeal than anything else and with that in mind you can effectively replace logic with emotion and push targets doubt. This is especially true if you are able to identify players who try hard to appear ‘skilled’ as that it will force them to choose between saving face and being honest.
You can often deflect aggression from players pushing on you if you respond with passive behavior.

Apathy:
This can be an indicator when it is in contrast with a player who is dedicated unless intentionally expressed. Mostly telling when associated with reads or the death of a player. Finding when a slot unintentionally expresses apathy can be very useful.
As scum you can use apathy to offset pushes. Simply responding to a push on you by expressing that you do not care how they read you dodges responding and leaves them with nothing to read.
As either alignment you can use apathy to discredit focus. If a player pushes a subject simply pushing that you do not care about the results of the push carries weight. I have sometimes used this to avoid pressure on a subject I didn’t want to talk about.

Spoiler : 3- Application of Communication : Click to show

If you understand exactly how to communicate and understand others communication the question exactly what should you communicate and why? I am going to totally ignore some of the basics and jump to some applications that are extremely useful but underused. Keep in mind that you still have to understand the players and their perspectives to effectively use these.

Insulating a town read from a scum night kill- If you are able to pick up that Player X is probably a Doctor there are 2 ways to play it out. You can try to pull attention off the slot or you can scum read the slot. From the scum perspective (See perspectives in part two) it makes sense for scum to target players they think they cannot lynch. By scum reading the slot you can provide incisive for scum to leave the slot alive.

Town read a slot as a poke to see if it is scum- This is something that catches many scum off guard. By town reading them with flawed reasoning you can watch their reaction which is usually much less filtered than if you scum read them. Be careful not to use this on players that may be town and desperate for pressure relief. This works particularly well on slots that are under pressure even if you just push a conversation change. An innocent man will push to stay on the subject of his guilt to clear himself while a guilty man will gratefully accept a change of subject to avoid getting caught.

Scum read a slot to judge reaction of another player with weak reasoning- Sometimes you can identify a scum trying to just ‘paint’ a target as scummy as opposed analyzing to identifying their alignment. If you present flawed reasoning and push for them to give feedback on your reasoning you may catch them working to justify your bad reasoning.

Aggressively address the town opposing a belief you hold to be true to identify who thinks the same as you- If done correctly you can end up identifying exactly which players are willing to confidently defend that point.

In general you should take the time to consider what you are pushing and why. What are other people pushing and why? If you are struggling to convey a message cut back to the basics. Find common ground and build on it. If you are not sure what to post and need content to analyze create that content. Gambits do not have to be hard 'I have this feedback' nonsene that beguiles town. They can be soft and simple plays.

Spoiler : Case Examples : Click to show
This is going to be delayed until the next to sections are done. When trying to write it up I found it impossible to avoid addressing strategy and perspective


Nothing in Mafia is independently a 'scum tell' until you break into mechanical analysis which will be covered in a later guide. I believe that this will be viewed as the "Least useful" portion of the guide I am working on but I will also argue that it is the most important. Until you are able to effectively communicate and identify other players communication you are crippled in your ability to play regardless of how good you are at identifying scum.

What is this from?

I guess as a random reference from where this a from. This is from the school of hard fucking knocks and I've already pinned a maf scum.

[Tangrowth]

AHHH FML - Personal situations might get heavy this week after tonight beyond. Can town please steamroll? Please? focuson the 4 low posters i suggested plox.

Hope everything is OK.

Beautiful woman just moved over to my country tonight after breaking up with the best man of someone I was a best man of. Yes, its a nuts web, two weddings.

Best Man 1 = dating sister of groom
I am bestman 2 = groom , best man 1 was dating sister of groom for 10 years

sister and bestman 1 break up and sister moves to dubai... tonight

It's going to be a slingshot, I already said what I was going to do to. Zexy is usually very good at this already whether or not she knows it. Someone MUST go bech before EOD implicit or explicit.

Sounds complicated! Good luck.

[Tangrowth]

Interest. Most sites just polciy lynch them. Lel.

Yeah, we don't really policy lynch anyone around here. It's a foreign term. People discuss low poster lynches in almost every game, but off the top of my head I can't recall a single game where that even ended up happening. High posters are more likely d1 lynches, as much as I hate that.

[Tangrowth]

You're more likely town than not. Less show more umph.

What do you mean?

I'm expecting a solid FOS from you after so much pazzaz.

What's FOS? Lol.

FOS = Finger of Suspicion - it's pretty old world unless you've been playing mafia/werewolf since before 2010. It means providing a case of doubt on a particular player.[/quote]

2010 was the year I started playing.

Got it. Apologies to constantly inquire about abbreviations. The Lostpedia-based communities (where I learned and played mafia) that ended up funneling largely into the member base of The Syndicate seemed to have developed in their own little bubble of different terms and only open setup role madness games.

[Tangrowth]

Alright, caught up. That was a decent amount of content to digest. I need to mull over some of it still.

I don't feel comfortable with my most recent rainbow list anymore. There's too much content in the thread that I can't immediately recall.

UNVOTE

I need to switch back to PhD work mode for an hour or so here, but then I'll return to ISO some folks starting with the lowest posters and ascending until I either run out of time or hit everyone I wanted to ISO (or everyone in general, but that'd take a lot of time I'm not sure I can afford). Then I'll formulate my new rankings and post my Rainbow List #2.

[Frog]

"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Taking advantage of this situation is unforgivable. I will find whoever is responsible for this."

"Perfect" - but really, awesome

Tinfoil was established and so suddenly refoiled

[Marco]

I might not be as active today. It's Sunday evening and I have to finish up some work for tomorrow. I am completely caught up, though, I didn't read the last 2-3 pages as thoroughly as I'd want to.

I see that some people are interested in more reads from me, and specifically a rainbow list. I'll get to that in a few hours after I ISO some people. Just want to point out that it won't exactly be a rainbow list. For starters, I'm not conclusively reading most of the players and I'll be much more confident of my reads after we see a couple deaths. Second, I tend to have these dual reads on some people, eg: if I consider someone really good at acting town as scum, I might have them on the top of my town list because of their activity this game, but be heavily considering the possibility of them being scum. I'm not the strongest of scumhunters and I rely on ISO reading someone much less than VCA, associations with others players, inclination to follow X or Y logic, etc.

Just sort of giving reasons for why my rainbow list won't be as "solid" as most of you are used to. By solid, I mean that my rainbow list might change dramatically in the coming phases.

[Frog]

This game is saeriously lacking oomph

1) who the fuck is MovingPictures? He comes in disrupting stautus quo and almost no one object simply because I declare him un touchable. Literally what in the fu ck??

2) I (Frog) expected MUCH more pushback - but enough to know that I'm onto the 4 taht I intended

3) Golden has been strong fighting a bunch of peeps, such weakness is gae against personal resolve IMO.

4_ Silverwolf is aggressive. get over it. She's basically defending herselg and IKA. (lol, she's really noy - she's targetting literally everyone - basically a mech clear villa)

5) Marco - I can already say Hard V read after I pressured substaintially early

6) Dys - that fierce chick? It's an avatar!! get over an eye looking at you. It's a psych scheme. Look into the actual content. Implicit defense + offense

7) SLoonei - this dude looks like a red dildo - I generally disagree with this feck but he 's prob a town and definitely not a D1 vote

8) Ika - spent most of his time defending himself and silverwolf - so fucking standard and annoyinf as fuck. Problem is, because it's theri collective meta, there's n othing to go off of.

9) Zexy is moderately towny via Meta. active and engaging enough. I'd like to see Zexy try to shoot for an MVP spot. IMagine this is the champs itself Zexy. Imagine we're on bulba garden. Take leadership FFS!

10_ Sig - moderately towny based on intro and he took a step back

11) a2thezebra - dude is obssessed with me anothing else. Good enough topic for centerfield I guess, but I'd wish he'd taken a topic on those he was competing against for bottom posters. Dude has shit arguments and even worse FOSes.

12) Dr Wiggly - DOCTOR WHO? Literally, who the flip is t his dude? anyone know? I don't. Firm FOS.

13) IAWY - this guy is ust trying to survive the day one way or another. I've said I would never vote him D1 out of respect for his town game, but I mean, this game is just 100% of his usua l town game. He's addmitted it etc. but come on dude, be lazy and just play and fly at least.

14) Long Cron - WHO>!?

15) Marsh - Scummy fek?

16) PSITCH - literally 2 posts - nuff said

17) That rando who hasn't partook in D1 must be replaced. IDGAF how angle shooty this is. I'm drunk AF and this is nuts to go an entier extended day without posts. Not pl aying isn't a strategy - it's literally not playing.

[Tangrowth]

"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Taking advantage of this situation is unforgivable. I will find whoever is responsible for this."

"Perfect" - but really, awesome

Tinfoil was established and so suddenly refoiled

Lolwhat

[Tangrowth]

I might not be as active today. It's Sunday evening and I have to finish up some work for tomorrow. I am completely caught up, though, I didn't read the last 2-3 pages as thoroughly as I'd want to.

I see that some people are interested in more reads from me, and specifically a rainbow list. I'll get to that in a few hours after I ISO some people. Just want to point out that it won't exactly be a rainbow list. For starters, I'm not conclusively reading most of the players and I'll be much more confident of my reads after we see a couple deaths. Second, I tend to have these dual reads on some people, eg: if I consider someone really good at acting town as scum, I might have them on the top of my town list because of their activity this game, but be heavily considering the possibility of them being scum. I'm not the strongest of scumhunters and I rely on ISO reading someone much less than VCA, associations with others players, inclination to follow X or Y logic, etc.

Just sort of giving reasons for why my rainbow list won't be as "solid" as most of you are used to. By solid, I mean that my rainbow list might change dramatically in the coming phases.

Oh, that's normal at least from my point of view. My rainbow list is subject to radically change, as are my views, because tunneling without legitimate reasons to do so is my downfall, and I try my best to avoid that.

So, to be clear, your (rainbow) list won't be considering the nuances of your dual reads, correct?

[Tangrowth]

This game is saeriously lacking oomph

1) who the fuck is MovingPictures? He comes in disrupting stautus quo and almost no one object simply because I declare him un touchable. Literally what in the fu ck??

This is why drunk mafiaing is the best.

Seriously though, what are you talking about? How did I disrupt status quo and when did you declare me untouchable?

[Tangrowth]

Alright, ISO time.

[Frog]

This game is saeriously lacking oomph

1) who the fuck is MovingPictures? He comes in disrupting stautus quo and almost no one object simply because I declare him un touchable. Literally what in the fu ck??

This is why drunk mafiaing is the best.

Seriously though, what are you talking about? How did I disrupt status quo and when did you declare me untouchable?

Pretty sure I declared you never a D1 lynch

drunk as a skunk, amlst 6 PM

I've been dirnking so long. :S

[Tangrowth]

SONEJI

No content. 0 posts. The nullest of null.

Yes, this post wasn't necessary, but now I can say I've completed one ISO and it makes me feel better about my progress.

[Frog]

"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Taking advantage of this situation is unforgivable. I will find whoever is responsible for this."

"Perfect" - but really, awesome

Tinfoil was established and so suddenly refoiled

Lolwhat

I'm drinking a south african brandy and watching death note for the first time al the way through.

[Frog]

SONEJI

No content. 0 posts. The nullest of null.

Yes, this post wasn't necessary, but now I can say I've completed one ISO and it makes me feel better about my progress.

LOLOLOL. If soneji isn;t replace I RAGE!

But seriously, it's a straight null spot.

[Tangrowth]

This game is saeriously lacking oomph

1) who the fuck is MovingPictures? He comes in disrupting stautus quo and almost no one object simply because I declare him un touchable. Literally what in the fu ck??

This is why drunk mafiaing is the best.

Seriously though, what are you talking about? How did I disrupt status quo and when did you declare me untouchable?

Pretty sure I declared you never a D1 lynch

drunk as a skunk, amlst 6 PM

I've been dirnking so long. :S

Yeah, didn't you say that within the past like 5 hours tops though? Hardly anyone else has been around this morning (my time).

And I'm not sure that equates to untouchable; that's just, like, your opinion. Everyone else could lynch me if they wanted. I'd be sad about that though, and so would they. Unless they're mafia, then they'd be happy.

[Tangrowth]

"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Taking advantage of this situation is unforgivable. I will find whoever is responsible for this."

"Perfect" - but really, awesome

Tinfoil was established and so suddenly refoiled

Lolwhat

I'm drinking a south african brandy and watching death note for the first time al the way through.

Nice.

For the first time? Man, nothing like watching that show for the first time. Great stuff.

[Tangrowth]

Okay, I'm going to ignore current posts until I've at least accomplished more ISOs. Sorry Frog. :P Otherwise, this will take too long.

[Frog]

Ugh - please never self lynch bait in these types of games

[Frog]

Okay, I'm going to ignore current posts until I've at least accomplished more ISOs. Sorry Frog. :P Otherwise, this will take too long.

yeah broo - first time for me. im om ep 15 season 1 atm.

Dont get me wrong, your striahg tin my tinfoiil, but i respespect your opinions regardless of how much I disagree with them and refuse to dispell them.

I'd say a good 30-40 of your posts I take issues with, but it's not conducive to dump these types of counter notes afte my analysis on you (albeit tinfoil ±5-8%)

[Silverwolf]

I'm here, and catching up. Looks like a lot happened.

Can I just say how much I love active games and active players and analytical players cus I do.

[Frog]

I'm here, and catching up. Looks like a lot happened.

Can I just say how much I love active games and active players and analytical players cus I do.

lel SW - remeber that time I identified scum in less than 50 posts?

;-)

You get to live a bit longer. GLGL. hope respect is recirprocal for a fun game

[Tangrowth]

Okay, I'll respond to this, then I'm in full on ISO only mode for a while here (a warning to everyone, not just Frog).

Linki w/ Silverwolf: Hell yeah, I'm with you there. This is a great group of folks and I couldn't be more excited to be playing this with you all.

Okay, I'm going to ignore current posts until I've at least accomplished more ISOs. Sorry Frog. :P Otherwise, this will take too long.

yeah broo - first time for me. im om ep 15 season 1 atm.

Dont get me wrong, your striahg tin my tinfoiil, but i respespect your opinions regardless of how much I disagree with them and refuse to dispell them.

I'd say a good 30-40 of your posts I take issues with, but it's not conducive to dump these types of counter notes afte my analysis on you (albeit tinfoil ±5-8%)

Nice! If I remember correctly about which one Episode 15 is, it's one of my favorites.

Oh yeah man, I respect your approach to this game as well. It's clear we come from incredibly different backgrounds and as a result of that and our personal POVs just approach the game very differently. I can appreciate it though.

[Marco]

I might not be as active today. It's Sunday evening and I have to finish up some work for tomorrow. I am completely caught up, though, I didn't read the last 2-3 pages as thoroughly as I'd want to.

I see that some people are interested in more reads from me, and specifically a rainbow list. I'll get to that in a few hours after I ISO some people. Just want to point out that it won't exactly be a rainbow list. For starters, I'm not conclusively reading most of the players and I'll be much more confident of my reads after we see a couple deaths. Second, I tend to have these dual reads on some people, eg: if I consider someone really good at acting town as scum, I might have them on the top of my town list because of their activity this game, but be heavily considering the possibility of them being scum. I'm not the strongest of scumhunters and I rely on ISO reading someone much less than VCA, associations with others players, inclination to follow X or Y logic, etc.

Just sort of giving reasons for why my rainbow list won't be as "solid" as most of you are used to. By solid, I mean that my rainbow list might change dramatically in the coming phases.

Oh, that's normal at least from my point of view. My rainbow list is subject to radically change, as are my views, because tunneling without legitimate reasons to do so is my downfall, and I try my best to avoid that.

So, to be clear, your (rainbow) list won't be considering the nuances of your dual reads, correct?

I haven't yet decided it but I'm leaning on explaining my dual reads too, as I'm not familiar with playing with any of you and I think it will be better, for me and people reading my list, to let my complete thoughts be known. I'm more used to withholding information as town unless I feel it is immediately relevant (because 1. I am generally a priority target where I come from, so I like to avoid being too transparent and attracting a kill. 2. My preferred method of tone-reading people is to lead them on without letting them know my initial read), but that mostly helps only when you're familiar with the people you're playing with.

So, yeah, I'll probably expand on my dual reads too. I think I have more to gain this game by letting people chime in on my secondary reads rather than withholding them.

[ika]

ok so i jsut read up and i want to say one thing:

in boht turf and hest i was ina constant stuggle on being lynch vs not being lycnhed.

turf i barly got by the first 3 days, on day 3 i only got away due to vote loans. 4-5 i got away due to me bussing fuzzy in CFD

hesit i was the competing wagon on all of day 2 and most of 3.

i am very much an easy myslycnh based on my own playstyle

[Frog]

My major flaw, and survival skill atm - is not explaining my reads.

I mesh very well with an effective communicator, but I see patterns in the way normal people do not. When I meld these types of notes with a partner, it becomes apparent. I'm looking for a mason bruh as much as I can right now. Zexy, IAWY, Ika, and Silverwolf, none can be implciit mason buds for me which sucks ballzack. just want to notes dump on a partner. :@

[Frog]

ok so i jsut read up and i want to say one thing:

in boht turf and hest i was ina constant stuggle on being lynch vs not being lycnhed.

turf i barly got by the first 3 days, on day 3 i only got away due to vote loans. 4-5 i got away due to me bussing fuzzy in CFD

hesit i was the competing wagon on all of day 2 and most of 3.

i am very much an easy myslycnh based on my own playstyle

buzzzzz - this dude is drunk. drunk recognize drunk like fuck.

Yeah, you get mislynched becayse ouy don give a fuck like you use to. You used to be so fucking pro dude. Take your play to the next level here okox.

[Tangrowth]

PSITTACIFORM

Psi has 2 posts. Here they are:

Spoiler: show

Hello~

Psittacitform caught my eye. VOTE PSITTACITFORM. I see you there with your hand in the cookie jar. What have you to say for yourself!

Thanks for the welcome! Cookie jar? What cookies, vanilla? Because I have a vanilla here, not a cookie, however. :P

What I didn't like about your posts is that they seemed like an easy opportunistic set of early observations when there wasn't a whole lot of content to analyze. It's a good and easy way to establish yourself early on as a town leader.

I don't think you are the kind of person who would base a read only on that anyway when so much more is going to happen.
I'd like to believe same goes for sig.

I'll just note on this that Zexy is also prone to analyze anything he can and try to set himself up as a town leader, which can (at least partly) explain why he's going to Sig's defense here over that.
On that note, I'm not, you won't hear from me unless I feel I have something worth saying.

I've JUST finished a C12 match on MU where many vanillagers were fake claiming TPRs, and fake counter claiming TPRs all over the place. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. Those that didn't work were because of a cognitive dissonance between players. With this in mind, if you are town reading a player, and they fake claim a power role, would you counter claim them?

Furthermore, with respect to claims, I'm planning on following this format every day:
If I'm X role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Y role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Z role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.

Cognitive dissonance? And no, I don't think I would, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else be that eager to, either. Unless you have a clear goal and plan to get something out of your fake claim/counter-claim, it only stands to spread confusion, and potentially cause a mislynch or two.

Ok, and what's your point?

...And I feel this "new posts" feature is lovely, helps keep me up to date, again and again and-

Second addendum: OH GOD I CAN'T POST STOP HELP

Not too much here, but it is his first post, so that's not surprising. Here's what I found:
Meta read on Zexy.
Apparently nothing has been worth saying? Seriously though, Psi, I'd love to hear what's going on in your mind. Please post again soon.
Disagrees with Frog's claiming plan, relatively vehemently.

Difficult to pull an alignment lean out of this one post. Null, I guess.

Spoiler: show

So, sig: what is TS? What do you think of Sloonei’s push on you? You defended, but what does that mean in regards to his alignment?

I disagree on the fake claiming part because in MU there actually a power role cover system where everybody claims all the roles so that the real ones get to “naturally” throw their real results in without standing out too much. And others fakeclaim to draw NKs.

That works best when people are used to hypo claiming. We could go that route but doesn't look to me like everyone is used to hypo on their home boards. I don't mind PR cover either but it's hard to pull off with complete strangers. I'd have to have a really strong town-read on someone (or say an innocent report).

What good does it do for every player to claim every role? How does it benefit the Power Roles to be able to "naturally" throw their real results in?

From what I understand, the idea is, should a PR get killed before having a chance to claim and clearly state results, they can simply sneak them out as part of a fake claim-fest, and when they die, all the other town players need to do is look back at their posts and see what info they left. Such a tactic should only be left to info roles like Cop or Tracker/Watcher, and only in a environment where it's the standard and people can be expected to carry it out, however. And as I said before, I'm against it here, without any experience in those tactics, it will probably just lead to a confused mess for town.

This post is entirely a continuation of the purple stuff above: Disagrees with Frog's claiming plan, relatively vehemently.

Another null post.

Overall, I'd say null, but if forced to stay away from null reads, I lean slight mafia.

[Tangrowth]

EBWOP: To explain why I lean slight mafia, it's because all I saw were meta explanations and disagreements with Frog's mechanics-based arguments. No reads, no game-related commentary on players.

I'll be sure to add a little blurb about this in future ISOs so that I'm abundantly clear on my thought process.

[Silverwolf]

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

I have ika as null tbh. He's not as active as I like since being back and I don't like that he hasn't given a full read list. That said, I don't like your case on him. It's not only weak but looks fabricated.

The part I bolded-on D1 if you expect more than this from him, you are gonna be infuriated a lot. He goes off gut quite a bit overall as a player. That's just playstyle for him. I know, I know. I'm defending him again but mostly what I'm doing here is not only explaining his playstyle to you, but also saying why I don't like your push on him. I don't mind your other posts as much but this part, I do have huge problems with. Your ika push is bad. ika can and should be questioned but the way you are going about it looks like you are looking for reasons to scumpaint him and are going after playstyle and this is never a good idea with ika.

[Frog]

PSITTACIFORM

Psi has 2 posts. Here they are:

Spoiler: show

Hello~

Psittacitform caught my eye. VOTE PSITTACITFORM. I see you there with your hand in the cookie jar. What have you to say for yourself!

Thanks for the welcome! Cookie jar? What cookies, vanilla? Because I have a vanilla here, not a cookie, however. :P

What I didn't like about your posts is that they seemed like an easy opportunistic set of early observations when there wasn't a whole lot of content to analyze. It's a good and easy way to establish yourself early on as a town leader.

I don't think you are the kind of person who would base a read only on that anyway when so much more is going to happen.
I'd like to believe same goes for sig.

I'll just note on this that Zexy is also prone to analyze anything he can and try to set himself up as a town leader, which can (at least partly) explain why he's going to Sig's defense here over that.
On that note, I'm not, you won't hear from me unless I feel I have something worth saying.

I've JUST finished a C12 match on MU where many vanillagers were fake claiming TPRs, and fake counter claiming TPRs all over the place. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. Those that didn't work were because of a cognitive dissonance between players. With this in mind, if you are town reading a player, and they fake claim a power role, would you counter claim them?

Furthermore, with respect to claims, I'm planning on following this format every day:
If I'm X role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Y role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Z role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.

Cognitive dissonance? And no, I don't think I would, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else be that eager to, either. Unless you have a clear goal and plan to get something out of your fake claim/counter-claim, it only stands to spread confusion, and potentially cause a mislynch or two.

Ok, and what's your point?

...And I feel this "new posts" feature is lovely, helps keep me up to date, again and again and-

Second addendum: OH GOD I CAN'T POST STOP HELP

Not too much here, but it is his first post, so that's not surprising. Here's what I found:
Meta read on Zexy.
Apparently nothing has been worth saying? Seriously though, Psi, I'd love to hear what's going on in your mind. Please post again soon.
Disagrees with Frog's claiming plan, relatively vehemently.

Difficult to pull an alignment lean out of this one post. Null, I guess.

Spoiler: show

So, sig: what is TS? What do you think of Sloonei’s push on you? You defended, but what does that mean in regards to his alignment?

I disagree on the fake claiming part because in MU there actually a power role cover system where everybody claims all the roles so that the real ones get to “naturally” throw their real results in without standing out too much. And others fakeclaim to draw NKs.

That works best when people are used to hypo claiming. We could go that route but doesn't look to me like everyone is used to hypo on their home boards. I don't mind PR cover either but it's hard to pull off with complete strangers. I'd have to have a really strong town-read on someone (or say an innocent report).

What good does it do for every player to claim every role? How does it benefit the Power Roles to be able to "naturally" throw their real results in?

From what I understand, the idea is, should a PR get killed before having a chance to claim and clearly state results, they can simply sneak them out as part of a fake claim-fest, and when they die, all the other town players need to do is look back at their posts and see what info they left. Such a tactic should only be left to info roles like Cop or Tracker/Watcher, and only in a environment where it's the standard and people can be expected to carry it out, however. And as I said before, I'm against it here, without any experience in those tactics, it will probably just lead to a confused mess for town.

This post is entirely a continuation of the purple stuff above: Disagrees with Frog's claiming plan, relatively vehemently.

Another null post.

Overall, I'd say null, but if forced to stay away from null reads, I lean slight mafia.

*claps* give it time. Marhsmellow will flow will ever scummy juice. I respecrt your vote on the bottom 4 i suggest like nutes <3

[Frog]

Drunken argument

BECAUSE I've suggested VCA - expect bussing deep wolf/wolves

in any event:
... im too drunk to rememner. someone who isn't a drooler pick up on th mech implciations. I want to say MArco and/or Zexy will be able to figure this out better than most.

[Frog]

If Marco is Monte, I will be seriously dissapointed

;-)

[sig]

"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Taking advantage of this situation is unforgivable. I will find whoever is responsible for this."

"Perfect" - but really, awesome

Tinfoil was established and so suddenly refoiled

Lolwhat

I'm drinking a south african brandy and watching death note for the first time al the way through.

Nice.

For the first time? Man, nothing like watching that show for the first time. Great stuff.

I hate to be that guy, but the manga is much better imo.

[Tangrowth]

METALMARSH89

MM has 6 posts. Might as well include them all.

Spoiler: show

Why not. VOTE METALMARSH89 because it always feels good.

A self-vote after I threw a joke/RVS vote on him. This is 100% within meta. Null read.

Spoiler: show

I'm voting a new guy (or gal) instead.

Psittacitform caught my eye. VOTE PSITTACITFORM. I see you there with your hand in the cookie jar. What have you to say for yourself!

Second post is a vote for Psi. It's a very jokey post and vote, again, not out of character or meta at all. It's still very early in the phase so I understand there wasn't much content. I'm not sure what to make of this. Null again?

Spoiler: show

MM seems to be as jokey as normal, not an alignment indicator.

MP comes into the thread with his normal "I won't post much it doesn't mean I'm mafia unlesssss I decide to post alot, but I probably won't" thing. So expect lots of posts and activity from MP. :P

Don't tell everyone the meta that indicates nothing of my alignment! Mafia is srsbusienseses.

Another jokey response, this time in response to sig when sig commented on MM's "jokey as normal, not an alignment indicator" meta. I'd say null again, but with each increasing post that MM doesn't contribute, it makes it more difficult for me and everyone else to read him as town, even if I have seen instances where he has failed to engage himself seriously in early portions of the game as town. I'm conflicted. Null again.

Spoiler: show

*makes content*

This is totally content. Contented content. *nods knowingly*

This man(?) has clearly shown clear civilian behavior in this post. DX is cleared!

May I call you DX? Do you have a preferred nickname?

Jokey banter with Dizzy. There's really nothing here.

Spoiler: show

You can call me Marmot.

That said, I'll be busy most of the rest of today, but I'll be around tomorrow to chat with all you fine amphibians.

Says he'll be around today (as opposed to yesterday, when he was busy). Null. Hopefully he shows up soon.

Spoiler: show

You can call me Marmot.

That said, I'll be busy most of the rest of today, but I'll be around tomorrow to chat with all you fine amphibians.

YOU BETTER BRING IT TO THE THUNDERDOOOOOME!

I don't live in a thunderdome, I live in a wet biome.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand null again.

What am I supposed to do with this? Get in here, MM, please. I know town you can be a huge contributor; you posted almost 1,000 posts in Talking Heads Mafia. Consider this your sense of urgency. You have less than a day to consider everyone you're town, or you might suffer the noose. Show me your town spark.

Null again. But I'm avoiding null reads except for Soneji who is true null. Slight mafia? I guess? Just because there's 6 posts and all of them are null? If it weren't MM and he didn't have a meta for this kind of thing, and if I hadn't led mislynches on him for this kind of behavior before, I'd push him to a moderate mafia read. But since I know his game really well and have contributed to his mislynch too often, I have to consider the freaking meta.

[Frog]

/Bear in mind dudes - this is my western work day. I'm literally stationed fro this game. Any lurking scum. literally no respect for you post game, and I'll still dominate you. Dare you to kill me tonight.

[ika]

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

I have ika as null tbh. He's not as active as I like since being back and I don't like that he hasn't given a full read list. That said, I don't like your case on him. It's not only weak but looks fabricated.

The part I bolded-on D1 if you expect more than this from him, you are gonna be infuriated a lot. He goes off gut quite a bit overall as a player. That's just playstyle for him. I know, I know. I'm defending him again but mostly what I'm doing here is not only explaining his playstyle to you, but also saying why I don't like your push on him. I don't mind your other posts as much but this part, I do have huge problems with. Your ika push is bad. ika can and should be questioned but the way you are going about it looks like you are looking for reasons to scumpaint him and are going after playstyle and this is never a good idea with ika.

Pretty much this, i get reads when i get them. i dont look for logic, i don't look for consistency, i don't look for that stuff. all of that stuff is manipulative, what i look for the the motive, the reason, the why. those cant be maipulated no matter what

most times i jsut get pinged by what someone post for no reason and jsut persue it

[Tangrowth]

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

I have ika as null tbh. He's not as active as I like since being back and I don't like that he hasn't given a full read list. That said, I don't like your case on him. It's not only weak but looks fabricated.

The part I bolded-on D1 if you expect more than this from him, you are gonna be infuriated a lot. He goes off gut quite a bit overall as a player. That's just playstyle for him. I know, I know. I'm defending him again but mostly what I'm doing here is not only explaining his playstyle to you, but also saying why I don't like your push on him. I don't mind your other posts as much but this part, I do have huge problems with. Your ika push is bad. ika can and should be questioned but the way you are going about it looks like you are looking for reasons to scumpaint him and are going after playstyle and this is never a good idea with ika.

I understand. It's not fabricated, I can assure you. I don't understand how you can't see my sincerity and frustration in the moment, and I don't understand why you can't consider that I'm unfamiliar with him and you. I'm inevitably not as intimate with his meta as Frog, you, or any others who have actually played with him.

Frankly, if we discard meta completely, the way ika plays the game is completely strong mafia read to me based on playstyle. It's not an effective way to play the game; it completely disregards clear communication and coordination, and it is the epitome of emotional. It's everything I don't understand in another player.

I'm leaving him alone for D1 and throwing my hands up in the air, because it's clear my previous disagreements with him were over playstyle. That much is evident to me now, particularly after you and Frog have harped on the meta so much.

I'm not looking for reasons to scumpaint him. I've reassessed, not because my opinion is unpopular, but because clear points have been consistently made all around, meta by you and Frog, and even a logical argument I was misinterpreting that Marco pointed out. I want to ISO him before committing to a new read for sure, but I'd likely stick him in the null / slight mafia range right now before the ISO.

[Tangrowth]

With all of that said, I'm beyond frustrated that your, Dizzy, and others' natural reactions are to find my behavior disingenuous and scum read me when I've been more than upfront about my thoughts. I believed my case. You and others poked holes in it, but it's difficult to just take someone else's word for meta in the moment, and in that heated moment I was pretty sure I found mafia in ika, hence his placement as my top mafia read.

And yes, I know I took a break from ISOing to respond like I said I wouldn't, but I felt this was a matter of importance and multiple people, including you Silver, are still not getting it. You're giving ika points for meta which I barely even know exist because I've never played with the guy, and yet no one is willing to consider my meta because none of you know it. It's a double standard.

[ika]

buzzzzz - this dude is drunk. drunk recognize drunk like fuck.

Yeah, you get mislynched becayse ouy don give a fuck like you use to. You used to be so fucking pro dude. Take your play to the next level here okox.

i am 100% sober frog, dont ever and i mean EVER act like you know me.

you dont know my play or why i give this attitue or anythign about it, you dont know jack shit. ive said this 1000 timse over,the only person who understand my meta as meta and my plays and knows whats alignement indicative and whats not is silver herself.

there are a handful of people here who i feel liek are starting to get a grasp on how i play in general but only silver is the one who can call me out on something that is pure scum vs town me accurately. about 90% of what i normaly do is NAI. that inculded not giving a damn

[Silverwolf]

For some reason I feel like Golden and MP are scumbuddies. The way they are defending each other and the way Golden is trying to impeded any suspicion on MP just gives me this feel. I mean why is Golden doing this in regards to MP so much? I also feel like Goldens push on my was waaaaaay too much. He has basically spent a good part of this game tunneling me and talking about me when there are a lot of other players here. This is a good way to look like you are scumhunting when you are not. He did give a reads list I mostly agree with so that's the only thing I hesitate on. I already explained I hate MP's ika case. I normally don't like doing preflipp associations before a scum flip also, which makes me hesitate on this. One of them could be scum whiteknighting the other but it's pretty obvious if so.

IAWY is still scummy to me. With the hype, I'd expect a lot more. Not just floating through D1. I don't like it. Zebra is a good vote. Zebra mostly just commented on not liking Frog's lurker plan and not much else. While posting all those letters, just seems pointless instead of analyzing the game. I know she is capable a lot more. Saw it in her last game.

So yeah-Zebra, IAWY, Golden, MP.

That's my scum list as of right now.

[Tangrowth]

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

I have ika as null tbh. He's not as active as I like since being back and I don't like that he hasn't given a full read list. That said, I don't like your case on him. It's not only weak but looks fabricated.

The part I bolded-on D1 if you expect more than this from him, you are gonna be infuriated a lot. He goes off gut quite a bit overall as a player. That's just playstyle for him. I know, I know. I'm defending him again but mostly what I'm doing here is not only explaining his playstyle to you, but also saying why I don't like your push on him. I don't mind your other posts as much but this part, I do have huge problems with. Your ika push is bad. ika can and should be questioned but the way you are going about it looks like you are looking for reasons to scumpaint him and are going after playstyle and this is never a good idea with ika.

Pretty much this, i get reads when i get them. i dont look for logic, i don't look for consistency, i don't look for that stuff. all of that stuff is manipulative, what i look for the the motive, the reason, the why. those cant be maipulated no matter what

most times i jsut get pinged by what someone post for no reason and jsut persue it

I couldn't possibly disagree with your approach to this game more, but I respect it. You'll just have to try to work with me here because I need to understand where your train of thought is with regards to behavior in order to try and make any assessment as to whether you're town or mafia. I'm not just going to sit here and blindly listen to Silverwolf or anyone else; I will gladly take into account their opinions and their history annd knowledge with your meta and playstyle, but I need to be able to communicate with you and understand where you're coming from, otherwise I can't even begin to try to form a read on you, and that's frustrating for me. It takes detailed information for me to come to reads, and I need to know where you're coming from as much as you can. Please try to help me understand where your opinions are coming from so I can fairly assess them and decide whether I agree with you or not.

Your gut just doesn't do things randomly; there are clearly sources of posts and in-thread behavior where your gut is instinctively interpreting information.

[Frog]

As you wish to reinvent your yourself however much 10% you wish. Either way, I k now you and your games Ika. You;re Lazy AF which is NAI which sucks AF. Your effort isn't into the actual game which sucks AF. womp... fecking.... womp...

[Silverwolf]

I understand. It's not fabricated, I can assure you. I don't understand how you can't see my sincerity and frustration in the moment

I'm singling this out cuz I have never seen town say this. If town is frustrated they show it. They DON'T say-why can't you see how frustrated I am? That shows way too much self awareness of how you appear and TRYING to look frustrated and it just isn't a town thing to do. Town never gives a shit about how they look. This is worth changing my vote.

VOTE MOVING PICTURES

[ika]

As you wish to reinvent your yourself however much 10% you wish. Either way, I k now you and your games Ika. You;re Lazy AF which is NAI which sucks AF. Your effort isn't into the actual game which sucks AF. womp... fecking.... womp...

no you dont, you know jack shit about me, the "not giving a fuck" is public info to everyone, you no nothing more then a common person

[Tangrowth]

For some reason I feel like Golden and MP are scumbuddies. The way they are defending each other and the way Golden is trying to impeded any suspicion on MP just gives me this feel. I mean why is Golden doing this in regards to MP so much? I also feel like Goldens push on my was waaaaaay too much. He has basically spent a good part of this game tunneling me and talking about me when there are a lot of other players here. This is a good way to look like you are scumhunting when you are not. He did give a reads list I mostly agree with so that's the only thing I hesitate on. I already explained I hate MP's ika case. I normally don't like doing preflipp associations before a scum flip also, which makes me hesitate on this. One of them could be scum whiteknighting the other but it's pretty obvious if so.

IAWY is still scummy to me. With the hype, I'd expect a lot more. Not just floating through D1. I don't like it. Zebra is a good vote. Zebra mostly just commented on not liking Frog's lurker plan and not much else. While posting all those letters, just seems pointless instead of analyzing the game. I know she is capable a lot more. Saw it in her last game.

So yeah-Zebra, IAWY, Golden, MP.

That's my scum list as of right now.

You are unable to take yourself out of your own biased perspective with respect to particular events. Both yours and Golden's opinions were abundantly clear and I could understand both of your perspectives clearly in your back and forth. I'd suggest you revisit those posts with an open mind as much as possible.

Furthermore, I'm not strongly town reading Golden. He's fooled me too much before for that, and I still am hoping for more from him in terms of talking about folks that aren't you and me, and at least on that we agree.