I don't think so, most likely he's one of the two.Snow Dog wrote:Too late for that, Vomps has two votes. I hope he isn't the one.Mongoose wrote:We can spread the vote out like Snow Dog said and then maybe the hotel will see we are a united front. Let's take back our power!
And we should all probably never be in a lifeboat together.
The Shining: Night 6
Moderator: Community Team
- Kate
- LAMIST Supatown
- Posts in topic: 61
- Posts: 6940
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:51 pm
- Location: Connecticut
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Re: The Shining: Day 5
- Kate
- LAMIST Supatown
- Posts in topic: 61
- Posts: 6940
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:51 pm
- Location: Connecticut
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Re: The Shining: Day 5
And I bet Hedge is the other.
- Bullzeye
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 66
- Posts: 3337
- Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:54 pm
- Location: Keele, UK
Re: The Shining: Day 5
So I have no real idea of how to use my vote, but my dilemma is that if I don't vote I'll have no idea on day 6 either whereas voting might help. I'll follow the instincts of SVS, the only player I still trust, and vote Vomp.
- Kate
- LAMIST Supatown
- Posts in topic: 61
- Posts: 6940
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:51 pm
- Location: Connecticut
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Re: The Shining: Day 5
Way to give it away with 10 minutes left.Hedgeowl wrote:Mongoose wrote:We can spread the vote out like Snow Dog said and then maybe the hotel will see we are a united front. Let's take back our power!
And we should all probably never be in a lifeboat together.
Word as much as I like ya'll, never entrusting you with my life. Remember the two tie votes that Snow survived? Llama said ties are decidedly randomly, so someone will be lynched. I guess we can lynch without guilt, but sadly someone will be gone.
Also, 11 minutes till this vote ends.
Linki - Snow said it.
*votes vomps*
- Snow Dog
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 113
- Posts: 3892
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:08 am
- Location: Cardiff
Re: The Shining: Day 5
Interesting. I may go along with this for now. Vomps and Hedge.Kate wrote:And I bet Hedge is the other.
NOT a winner of...





- Mongoose
- Your Neighborhood Friendly Mongoose
- Posts in topic: 101
- Posts: 6079
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 8:52 pm
- Location: Murder Park
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
- Aka: Alison
- Contact:
Re: The Shining: Day 5
We'll crap on a cannonball. I didn't think anyone would believe my hunch.Snow Dog wrote:Too late for that, Vomps has two votes. I hope he isn't the one.Mongoose wrote:We can spread the vote out like Snow Dog said and then maybe the hotel will see we are a united front. Let's take back our power!
And we should all probably never be in a lifeboat together.
But yeah, that's mostly what it is. And I will feel so badly if I'm wrong, but he's seemed a little different lately. Basically, what I've been thinking but not articulating is that I've wondered if he was subtly trying to ingratiate himself with all/many of us in order to avoid detection.
And I think he might have a cohort. You might even say doppelganger.
linki- overload
Spoiler: show
- Snow Dog
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 113
- Posts: 3892
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:08 am
- Location: Cardiff
Re: The Shining: Day 5
Vomps is done for now. Can't be saved. So I have nothing to lose by retaining my NP and voting for Vomps.
Votes Vompatti
Votes Vompatti
NOT a winner of...





- Vompatti
- Loan Shark
- Posts in topic: 54
- Posts: 2903
- Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:46 pm
- Location: Finalnd
- Contact:
Re: The Shining: Day 5
:'(
*votes mongoose*
*votes mongoose*
- Snow Dog
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 113
- Posts: 3892
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:08 am
- Location: Cardiff
Re: The Shining: Day 5
You've made me sad now.Vompatti wrote::'(
*votes mongoose*

NOT a winner of...





- Kate
- LAMIST Supatown
- Posts in topic: 61
- Posts: 6940
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:51 pm
- Location: Connecticut
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Re: The Shining: Day 5
Aw man, the guilt thing?Vompatti wrote::'(
*votes mongoose*

- thellama73
- Supatown
- Posts in topic: 79
- Posts: 12623
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:29 pm
- Location: Murder Park
Re: The Shining: Polls
Day 5:
Who keeps doing that?
Poll runs till Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:54 pm
Bullzeye
0
No votes
Hedgeowl
0
No votes
Kate
1
Hedgeowl (5)
9%
Mongoose
1
Vompatti (11)
9%
Snow Dog
0
No votes
S~V~S
0
No votes
Vompatti
5
Mongoose (6), S~V~S (7), Bullzeye (8), Kate (9), Snow Dog (10)
45%
Spell of Enough With the Questions, Already! (host/mod/dead)
4
thellama73 (1), Epignosis (2), MovingPictures07 (3), birdwithteeth11 (4)
36%
Total votes : 11
Who keeps doing that?
Poll runs till Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:54 pm
Bullzeye
0
No votes
Hedgeowl
0
No votes
Kate
1
Hedgeowl (5)
9%
Mongoose
1
Vompatti (11)
9%
Snow Dog
0
No votes
S~V~S
0
No votes
Vompatti
5
Mongoose (6), S~V~S (7), Bullzeye (8), Kate (9), Snow Dog (10)
45%
Spell of Enough With the Questions, Already! (host/mod/dead)
4
thellama73 (1), Epignosis (2), MovingPictures07 (3), birdwithteeth11 (4)
36%
Total votes : 11
Epignosis wrote:If llama is good, it means we exist in a universe in which multitasking llama can call out the first of two mafia while simultaneously calling out two civilians.
I don't want to live in that universe.
Spoiler: show
- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Day 5
Kate wrote:Way to give it away with 10 minutes left.Hedgeowl wrote:Mongoose wrote:We can spread the vote out like Snow Dog said and then maybe the hotel will see we are a united front. Let's take back our power!
And we should all probably never be in a lifeboat together.
Word as much as I like ya'll, never entrusting you with my life. Remember the two tie votes that Snow survived? Llama said ties are decidedly randomly, so someone will be lynched. I guess we can lynch without guilt, but sadly someone will be gone.
Also, 11 minutes till this vote ends.
Linki - Snow said it.
*votes vomps*

Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- thellama73
- Supatown
- Posts in topic: 79
- Posts: 12623
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:29 pm
- Location: Murder Park
Re: The Shining: Night 6

"Say, what's that?" asked Kate. Looking up, they noticed the door to one of the hotel rooms was ajar.
"Did you open that?" asked Bullzeye.
"Not me, Vompatti is the only one who stayed in one of the rooms last night. Maybe he left it open."
"Too bad we can't ask him," said Mongoose.
"Do you suppose someone's inside? Someone else, I mean?" asked Hedgeowl.
"I don't know, but I'm willing to bet something's in there." said S~V~S, her voice shaking with nerves as she spoke.
Vompatti has ben lynched. He was one of the Grady Girls. It is now Night 5. You have 24 hours to send in PMs.

Epignosis wrote:If llama is good, it means we exist in a universe in which multitasking llama can call out the first of two mafia while simultaneously calling out two civilians.
I don't want to live in that universe.
Spoiler: show
- Mongoose
- Your Neighborhood Friendly Mongoose
- Posts in topic: 101
- Posts: 6079
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 8:52 pm
- Location: Murder Park
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
- Aka: Alison
- Contact:
Re: The Shining: Night 5
Sweet mother of pearl, I am so relieved to be right!
Vomps, I'll always miss ya, you did a great job til the very end.

Vomps, I'll always miss ya, you did a great job til the very end.
Spoiler: show
- Mongoose
- Your Neighborhood Friendly Mongoose
- Posts in topic: 101
- Posts: 6079
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 8:52 pm
- Location: Murder Park
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
- Aka: Alison
- Contact:
Re: The Shining: Night 5
Answer #1 does not warn of the danger enough, and an answer like #3 just piques curiosity.
Going with the most accurate and non-evasive answer.
Going with the most accurate and non-evasive answer.
Spoiler: show
- Kate
- LAMIST Supatown
- Posts in topic: 61
- Posts: 6940
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:51 pm
- Location: Connecticut
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Re: The Shining: Night 5
Definitely the crazy lady.
- S~V~S
- Captain Obvious
- Posts in topic: 59
- Posts: 21867
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:56 am
- Location: Lawn Guyland
- Gender: Female
Re: The Shining: Night 5
Yah, a very scary crazy lady
Skip softly, my moonbeams, for I have heard tell
That the stairs up to heaven lead straight down to hell
That the stairs up to heaven lead straight down to hell



- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Night 5
As much as I would rather have a surprise luau, I'm going with crazy lady.
Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- Tangrowth
- Don Emeritum
- Posts in topic: 87
- Posts: 33121
- Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:20 am
- Gender: genderfluid
- Preferred Pronouns: they/any
- Aka: tangy
Re: The Shining: Night 5
I would greatly appreciate a rezz right about now! Please? 

- Bullzeye
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 66
- Posts: 3337
- Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:54 pm
- Location: Keele, UK
Re: The Shining: Night 5
I'm gonna go with crazy lady because apparently that's what's in there. Having not seen or read The Shining it could actually be a room full of cakes and ice cream for all I know 

- thellama73
- Supatown
- Posts in topic: 79
- Posts: 12623
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:29 pm
- Location: Murder Park
Re: The Shining: Night 5
You found the easter egg!Bullzeye wrote:I'm gonna go with crazy lady because apparently that's what's in there. Having not seen or read The Shining it could actually be a room full of cakes and ice cream for all I know
Epignosis wrote:If llama is good, it means we exist in a universe in which multitasking llama can call out the first of two mafia while simultaneously calling out two civilians.
I don't want to live in that universe.
Spoiler: show
- Bullzeye
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 66
- Posts: 3337
- Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:54 pm
- Location: Keele, UK
Re: The Shining: Night 5
I... did? Awesome!thellama73 wrote:You found the easter egg!Bullzeye wrote:I'm gonna go with crazy lady because apparently that's what's in there. Having not seen or read The Shining it could actually be a room full of cakes and ice cream for all I know
- thellama73
- Supatown
- Posts in topic: 79
- Posts: 12623
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:29 pm
- Location: Murder Park
Re: The Shining: Night 5
No, just kidding.Bullzeye wrote:I... did? Awesome!thellama73 wrote:You found the easter egg!Bullzeye wrote:I'm gonna go with crazy lady because apparently that's what's in there. Having not seen or read The Shining it could actually be a room full of cakes and ice cream for all I know

Epignosis wrote:If llama is good, it means we exist in a universe in which multitasking llama can call out the first of two mafia while simultaneously calling out two civilians.
I don't want to live in that universe.
Spoiler: show
- Tangrowth
- Don Emeritum
- Posts in topic: 87
- Posts: 33121
- Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:20 am
- Gender: genderfluid
- Preferred Pronouns: they/any
- Aka: tangy
Re: The Shining: Night 5
thellama73 wrote:No, just kidding.Bullzeye wrote:I... did? Awesome!thellama73 wrote:You found the easter egg!Bullzeye wrote:I'm gonna go with crazy lady because apparently that's what's in there. Having not seen or read The Shining it could actually be a room full of cakes and ice cream for all I know![]()

- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Night 5
Well now that was just mean.MovingPictures07 wrote:thellama73 wrote:No, just kidding.Bullzeye wrote:I... did? Awesome!thellama73 wrote:You found the easter egg!Bullzeye wrote:I'm gonna go with crazy lady because apparently that's what's in there. Having not seen or read The Shining it could actually be a room full of cakes and ice cream for all I know![]()

Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- thellama73
- Supatown
- Posts in topic: 79
- Posts: 12623
- Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:29 pm
- Location: Murder Park
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Room 237 appears, anticlimactically, to be empty. A normal hotel room like all the others.
"Well, that was disappointing," said S~V~S.
"I told you so," said Snow Dog.
Others are not so blasé. It is obvious that the fear and paranoia of this place was wearing heavily on the sanity of the guests. They glanced about frantically, as though certain that an axe wielding maniac were about to jump out from behind every corner. Whose nerves would be the first to snap, drawing blood yet another time under the influence of the Overlook and its sinister ghostly inhabitants?
No one has died. It is now Day 6. You have 24 hours to lynch one last person. There were missing PMs
"Well, that was disappointing," said S~V~S.
"I told you so," said Snow Dog.
Others are not so blasé. It is obvious that the fear and paranoia of this place was wearing heavily on the sanity of the guests. They glanced about frantically, as though certain that an axe wielding maniac were about to jump out from behind every corner. Whose nerves would be the first to snap, drawing blood yet another time under the influence of the Overlook and its sinister ghostly inhabitants?
No one has died. It is now Day 6. You have 24 hours to lynch one last person. There were missing PMs
Epignosis wrote:If llama is good, it means we exist in a universe in which multitasking llama can call out the first of two mafia while simultaneously calling out two civilians.
I don't want to live in that universe.
Spoiler: show
- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Has anyone else received a drink? I am curious to this, because I have yet to experience any drink symptoms. I have also now received a 2nd drink.
Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- birdwithteeth11
- Loan Shark
- Posts in topic: 6
- Posts: 3076
- Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:58 am
- Location: Kentucky
Re: The Shining: Night 5
thellama73 wrote:No, just kidding.Bullzeye wrote:I... did? Awesome!thellama73 wrote:You found the easter egg!Bullzeye wrote:I'm gonna go with crazy lady because apparently that's what's in there. Having not seen or read The Shining it could actually be a room full of cakes and ice cream for all I know![]()

- Bullzeye
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 66
- Posts: 3337
- Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:54 pm
- Location: Keele, UK
Re: The Shining: Day 6
I've never had one, I'm beginning to think the barman doesn't love me! Actually I think I know what they're doing to people and if I'm right it would make sense that the same people are getting more than one rather than the barman working his way through all the players, which is why I was asking about it earlier.Hedgeowl wrote:Has anyone else received a drink? I am curious to this, because I have yet to experience any drink symptoms. I have also now received a 2nd drink.
- Snow Dog
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 113
- Posts: 3892
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:08 am
- Location: Cardiff
Re: The Shining: Day 6
I had a drink last night. Port and apparently I enjoyed it. Well as it was my only drink I was bound to. Any Port in a storm!Bullzeye wrote:I've never had one, I'm beginning to think the barman doesn't love me! Actually I think I know what they're doing to people and if I'm right it would make sense that the same people are getting more than one rather than the barman working his way through all the players, which is why I was asking about it earlier.Hedgeowl wrote:Has anyone else received a drink? I am curious to this, because I have yet to experience any drink symptoms. I have also now received a 2nd drink.

NOT a winner of...





- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Ha, well the bartender didn't specify my drink. It looks like Svs, mongoose, and I are the only ones left who received drinks. If Bullz theory is correct then mongoose and svs should have received another drink. Anyone?Snow Dog wrote:I had a drink last night. Port and apparently I enjoyed it. Well as it was my only drink I was bound to. Any Port in a storm!Bullzeye wrote:I've never had one, I'm beginning to think the barman doesn't love me! Actually I think I know what they're doing to people and if I'm right it would make sense that the same people are getting more than one rather than the barman working his way through all the players, which is why I was asking about it earlier.Hedgeowl wrote:Has anyone else received a drink? I am curious to this, because I have yet to experience any drink symptoms. I have also now received a 2nd drink.
Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- Bullzeye
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 66
- Posts: 3337
- Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:54 pm
- Location: Keele, UK
Re: The Shining: Day 6
I believe so, and the coming night is our last night. So whoever gets lynched today will be the last to die...Snow Dog wrote:Is this our last day?
- Mongoose
- Your Neighborhood Friendly Mongoose
- Posts in topic: 101
- Posts: 6079
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 8:52 pm
- Location: Murder Park
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
- Aka: Alison
- Contact:
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Wow, here's the scoop. I initially a drink was attempted a serve on me because it said the hedge maze changed shape and it prevented the bartender from reaching me! So it does seem like he tried to serve me. If this was another player's doing, thanks for keeping me sane! A sane mongoose is a happy mongoose.
Spoiler: show
- Mongoose
- Your Neighborhood Friendly Mongoose
- Posts in topic: 101
- Posts: 6079
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 8:52 pm
- Location: Murder Park
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
- Aka: Alison
- Contact:
Re: The Shining: Day 6
EBWOP: I think initially
Could this be the hotel itself changing shape? I wonder if it knew it was helping me or not. And if so, why would the hotel want to help ME?
Could this be the hotel itself changing shape? I wonder if it knew it was helping me or not. And if so, why would the hotel want to help ME?
Spoiler: show
- S~V~S
- Captain Obvious
- Posts in topic: 59
- Posts: 21867
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:56 am
- Location: Lawn Guyland
- Gender: Female
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Well, I have some ideas on who it is NOT, and who I will vote to protect. I feel good about the same people as before. Since someone I feel good about is saying they feel Snowy is OK, I will also keep him in the circle of trust. Although i would rather wait on developments and vote for protective purposes, I have to vote now as my online time this weekend is severely limited (my family is doing the whole 4 day weekend "Yay Us We're Awesome" extended BBQ/Pool Party/Beer/Wine/Sangriafest this weekend, and they are actually kinda fun, lol,
).
So voting Hedgeowl, sorry if you are not a twin, but based on what I think, I am not sure who else could be so

So voting Hedgeowl, sorry if you are not a twin, but based on what I think, I am not sure who else could be so

Skip softly, my moonbeams, for I have heard tell
That the stairs up to heaven lead straight down to hell
That the stairs up to heaven lead straight down to hell



- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Day 6
This is really interesting, but wouldn't it be more likely that Mrs.Torrence role blocked? If she role blocked again last night then maybe no one else received a drink either. It looks like SVS and I both received a drink on Night 2, Mongoose almost got one Night 3, and I received another on Night 4, so since SVS and Mongoose didnt receive one Night 5 (if Bullz' theory is correct) then lloyd may have been role blocked again? Unless someone else got a drink?Mongoose wrote:EBWOP: I think initially
Could this be the hotel itself changing shape? I wonder if it knew it was helping me or not. And if so, why would the hotel want to help ME?
As for people I trust, I don't know exactly who everyone is, but I have some educated guesses. Between Bullzeye, Mongoose, and Snowy however, at least one is false and I don't know who.
Definitely jealous of your weekend SVS! Sorry you chose to vote me, as I am not who you think and am not a threat to you. My win condition does not require killing people. All I know is that at least one person, maybe two will be very sad if they lynch me today. I am part of your win even if you don't know it.
Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- Mongoose
- Your Neighborhood Friendly Mongoose
- Posts in topic: 101
- Posts: 6079
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 8:52 pm
- Location: Murder Park
- Gender: Female
- Preferred Pronouns: She/her/hers
- Aka: Alison
- Contact:
Re: The Shining: Day 6
But if Mrs. Torrance had blocked Lloyd from serving then Snow Dog wouldn't have been served. Something else is going on here.
Kate, we haven't heard from you lately -- do you have any theories on the twin situation?
Kate, we haven't heard from you lately -- do you have any theories on the twin situation?
Spoiler: show
- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Was Snow dog served? I think the Port comment was a joke yes?Mongoose wrote:But if Mrs. Torrance had blocked Lloyd from serving then Snow Dog wouldn't have been served. Something else is going on here.
Kate, we haven't heard from you lately -- do you have any theories on the twin situation?
Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- Snow Dog
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 113
- Posts: 3892
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:08 am
- Location: Cardiff
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Yes. I was given a glass of port.Hedgeowl wrote:Was Snow dog served? I think the Port comment was a joke yes?Mongoose wrote:But if Mrs. Torrance had blocked Lloyd from serving then Snow Dog wouldn't have been served. Something else is going on here.
Kate, we haven't heard from you lately -- do you have any theories on the twin situation?
NOT a winner of...





- Hedgeowl
- Money Launderer
- Posts in topic: 67
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 am
- Location: Virginia
Re: The Shining: Day 6
My mistake. I wasn't given such a specific drink. Do the Welsh enjoy port? or do you?Snow Dog wrote:Yes. I was given a glass of port.Hedgeowl wrote:Was Snow dog served? I think the Port comment was a joke yes?Mongoose wrote:But if Mrs. Torrance had blocked Lloyd from serving then Snow Dog wouldn't have been served. Something else is going on here.
Kate, we haven't heard from you lately -- do you have any theories on the twin situation?

Turnip Head wrote: We need to lynch Pennsylvania Bitch.






- Bullzeye
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 66
- Posts: 3337
- Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:54 pm
- Location: Keele, UK
Re: The Shining: Day 6
Less than an hour to vote. Do any developments want to happen or am I going to have to vote for someone I'm still not sure I want to vote for?
- Bullzeye
- Racketeer
- Posts in topic: 66
- Posts: 3337
- Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:54 pm
- Location: Keele, UK
Re: The Shining: Day 6
I don't really think my power will matter tonight so I don't necessarily have to vote but I might do anyway.