Transistor [ENDGAME]

#251

agleaminranks wrote:Zebra has been posting nonsense that indicates nothing

It indicates that Zebra is playing in an unhelpful manner to the town, at least.

*votes Zebra*

#252

And no, I don't think Wilgy is being very helpful either, but he does this regardless of alignment. I don't recall Zebra ever behaving this way.

#253

DFaraday wrote:And no, I don't think Wilgy is being very helpful either, but he does this regardless of alignment. I don't recall Zebra ever behaving this way.

If I had to name the top zany people on this site (right now) it would be Matt, Wilgy, and Zebra.

But you are right in that Zebra is extra zany this game. I am going to go ahead and vote that way. ZEBRA

#254

I don't like everyone voting Zebra. Stop.

Vote Elo.

First, her calling me out while letting Wilgy slide is one thing.

Second, her defense of "I thought Wilgy was cursed or something" doesn't line up, Wilgy always acts like this.

Illy, that's fair. Don't trust my instincts? Cool beans. Remember, the only reason I thought you were bad was because of the many, many OT questions you were asking regarding the site, therefore I assumed you had BTSC because it seemed like you were pushing the "I don't get it" angle too much. Guess what? You DID have btsc. Civvie btsc, but whatever.

#255

@Epi

Does Cell get to vote in the poll?

#256

I've seen too many good civs die because they wanted to be silly. I doubt that Zebra or Wilgy are planning anything nefarious.

#257

Voting Zebra.

Its anti-town at best. At least Wilgy is purposedly funny.

#258

Does anyone truly believe that Elo thought that Wilgy was "cursed" ?

C'mon now.

#259

Elohcin wrote:And lastly, @JJJ - I just don't see zany behavior from Matt as productive and it makes me think he doesn't care about the game. I don;t think Matt is BAD. I never said that. I also don;t think I ever said that his tactics were baddie-like or un-civ. I just think they are unproductive and uncaring. That is all.

If you don't think he's a baddie then I don't understand what would compel you to interfere with what he was doing:

Spoiler: show

Even if you don't think his method is likely to work, there's no good reason for you to quash it like that without giving it a chance to function as a town Matt would have intended -- a possibility you've acknowledged now.

#260

thellama73 wrote:I also think JJJ might be mafia. Discuss.

Based on what?

#261

Illyria wrote:Matt, I think you and Elo have very different playstyles which can be problematic. I am reminded that you and I do as well, and you were like a damn dog with a bone decrying I was bad for what.. Four Mafia days?? I was not. I do not trust your instincts. So I am not following an Elo vote.

This is suspicious at face value. You've discredited Elo's ability to make reads based upon her being wrong about you once. The comparison being drawn would also appear inaccurate given that Elo has insisted she doesn't read Matt as a baddie.

#262

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Elohcin wrote:And lastly, @JJJ - I just don't see zany behavior from Matt as productive and it makes me think he doesn't care about the game. I don;t think Matt is BAD. I never said that. I also don;t think I ever said that his tactics were baddie-like or un-civ. I just think they are unproductive and uncaring. That is all.
If you don't think he's a baddie then I don't understand what would compel you to interfere with what he was doing:

Spoiler: show
Elohcin wrote:
Matt wrote:
Elohcin wrote:
Matt wrote:What's wrong with my post?

It's totally obvi niju needs to be destroyed.

So Say We All
Please share for those of us that its not "obvi" to.
I would like Bloops to respond to my interrogation before I go any further.
Exactly. Which means you have nothing. You just want to throw a name out there and see what happens. So no. No "obvi" here.
Even if you don't think his method is likely to work, there's no good reason for you to quash it like that without giving it a chance to function as a town Matt would have intended -- a possibility you've acknowledged now.

I think his method is a hindrance to finding mafia. And it gets under my skin that players will act this way. If you don't want to play, then don't sign up. If you're just looking for online fun, there are other avenues for that in the Speakeasy. He admitted himself that he doesn't baddie hunt.

But unless someone has a specific question to me about Matt, I will no longer bring it up b/c its not productive.

@ llama, I wonder about why you think JJJ is bad too. When did it become okay to just throw names out and not explain your thoughts? This is some lazy mafia playing going on.

@JJJ, how does it feel to have your name thrown out there with no real accusations to follow? Do you think this is okay behavior in a mafia game or do you think this is laziness?

linki again @ JJJ - please reread illyria's post. I don't think you are understanding it correctly. I was the host, Illyria was civ, and Mat was civ in the game she is talking about. He went after her, tunneled her for 4 days with no real accusations. He was wrong.

#263

and he's done that to me in several games and was wrong. Its like he randomizes a name and then tunnels that person no matter what until they are dead. He doesn't care whether they are really civ or baddie.

#264

I don't think I can confidently endorse a Zebra lynch. She's elected to play the game in such a way that any read demands total WIFOM, and without mechanical or interactive evidence it feels like a coin flip. The same goes for DrWilgy perhaps to a greater extent.

I'll likely be voting within a lynch-capable wagon, but there are still enough votes on the table to go elsewhere here.

#265

Elohcin wrote:@JJJ, how does it feel to have your name thrown out there with no real accusations to follow? Do you think this is okay behavior in a mafia game or do you think this is laziness?

I have been known to hurl accusations with reckless abandon, even accusations I don't believe in as a townie. I don't think that kind of thing is good enough to lynch someone, but it can serve as a springboard for new content that might lead to a more substantive read. llama can explain his accusation or not, I'll judge further after he's had time to do so.

Elohcin wrote:linki again @ JJJ - please reread illyria's post. I don't think you are understanding it correctly. I was the host, Illyria was civ, and Mat was civ in the game she is talking about. He went after her, tunneled her for 4 days with no real accusations. He was wrong.

If that's the case then I definitely misunderstood her. I thought she was suggesting your reads shouldn't be trusted not Matt's ("I'm not following an Elo vote"). You're right though, she did address Matt to start the post. She meant she's not following him by voting for Elo as opposed to not following Elo on whatever vote she places.

#266

I don't have much time to post but wanted to put in my vote before I'm gone for 5 hours.

Vote: Zebra

#267

agleaminranks wrote:As an aside: DrumBeats' plan is a terrible idea, but I don't think it's because he's bad.

I have to dash off to work and will be gone for the voting period.

Matt. I think your criticisms of zebra and Elo are both crazy and misplaced and I dislike your actions so far. Zebra has been posting nonsense that indicates nothing and I'm reading Elo as a helpful civilian right now. You get my vote today.

Please identify the specific criticisms Matt has made that make you feel this way.

#268

Elohcin wrote:and he's done that to me in several games and was wrong. Its like he randomizes a name and then tunnels that person no matter what until they are dead. He doesn't care whether they are really civ or baddie.

Just stop, Elo. Seriously stop. You're smearing me with this anti-Matt talk and guess what, THAT'S not helpful to the current game we're playing. Your agenda to have everyone play mafia the same exact way is noted, but if you have any other mean things to say, please direct it to Epi or Daisy. Thanks hon.

Oh, and again, I was wrong on Illy's alignment, but I knocked it out of the park as for guessing she had btsc.

#269

DFaraday wrote:And no, I don't think Wilgy is being very helpful either, but he does this regardless of alignment. I don't recall Zebra ever behaving this way.

DF, you hurt me!

;__;

I reccomend everyone stop voting Zebra. The easiest lynch day 1 is never mafia. 4 vote lead? Only 1.5 players actively opposing said lynch? Other options mentioned are Eloh and Matt? Perhaps DB? Yet Matt's the only other with votes on him?

Hey Eloh, compare Matt's actions this game to mine in Spirited Away for me. How do these compare?

Don't lynch Zebra she's my teammate.

#270

DrWilgy wrote:
DFaraday wrote:And no, I don't think Wilgy is being very helpful either, but he does this regardless of alignment. I don't recall Zebra ever behaving this way.
DF, you hurt me!

;__;

I reccomend everyone stop voting Zebra. The easiest lynch day 1 is never mafia. 4 vote lead? Only 1.5 players actively opposing said lynch? Other options mentioned are Eloh and Matt? Perhaps DB? Yet Matt's the only other with votes on him?

Hey Eloh, compare Matt's actions this game to mine in Spirited Away for me. How do these compare?

Don't lynch Zebra she's my teammate.

I don't remember how you acted in spirited away, can you remind me?

#271

And to Illy and Elo, and anyone else who doesn't "trust my instincts", especially while citing my going after Illy half of the Downton game, I bring you my 8th post in Downton...

Matt wrote:Anyway, Illy is still my top suspect. Lots and lots of questions about multi-quoting, how to post in off topic, etc, it really feels like she's pushing the "I'm not on a team, see, look at all my questions about stuff" agenda.

To be clear, Illy was on a team with Epignosis. A civ team, yes, but still. How you can cite this game, of ALL the games I've ever been wrong, is laughable.

Looks like Zeebies is gettin' lynched, or maybe votes will start piling onto me who knows, but I strongly encourage an Elo vote.

#272

Here now, gonna catch up.

#273

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:"Rather standard meta point": What does that mean?

My motivation was to pressure AATB to provide content, hopefully meaningful. I think it accomplished that, so I moved it. I don't understand why that would be seen as mafia compatible instead of town compatible.
To make an assertion in one game based upon the content present in another game is the nature of metagaming.

I didn't say that it has to be mafia compatible and cannot be town compatible. I said that it was a parallel to an incident I remembered from you in the scrimmage game. I had the thought, I brought it into the thread, and I left you to answer to it. I make specific references to specific moments in other games quite frequently, it's one of my favorite analytic methods and it often reveals at least something about a player's play style whether the assertion being made is correct or incorrect.

So what have you uncovered from this?

#274

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Thanks DB, I feel better about you now that you've expanded your thoughts on it, and I think your insistence in getting people to comprehend and consider your idea is town-minded, even if I'm still not personally sold on it.
I am inclined to agree. The viability and safety of DrumBeat's proposal can be debated, but I don't think it bears the appearance of a manipulation or a gambit. I think a rather small minority of baddies would be willing to produce this kind of proposal on Day 1 of a game in which general suspicions hadn't really developed yet -- he invited the spotlight squarely upon himself and shared an inherently controversial idea. I don't know much about DrumBeats as a player yet, but I don't get the impression he is the type to favor gigantic WIFOMburger strategies like this would be if he's bad.

I'm in agreement.

#275

MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:"Rather standard meta point": What does that mean?

My motivation was to pressure AATB to provide content, hopefully meaningful. I think it accomplished that, so I moved it. I don't understand why that would be seen as mafia compatible instead of town compatible.
To make an assertion in one game based upon the content present in another game is the nature of metagaming.

I didn't say that it has to be mafia compatible and cannot be town compatible. I said that it was a parallel to an incident I remembered from you in the scrimmage game. I had the thought, I brought it into the thread, and I left you to answer to it. I make specific references to specific moments in other games quite frequently, it's one of my favorite analytic methods and it often reveals at least something about a player's play style whether the assertion being made is correct or incorrect.
So what have you uncovered from this?

Pretty much just that you don't think the parallel is meaningful and that you seem to harbor doubts about me as a result of my talking about it. You should understand that you've asserted yourself in this game with a meteoric post count compared to other players including me, and especially after seeing what you did in the scrimmage it is imperative that you be critically assessed in whatever ways possible. Before the scrimmage, I might have genuinely been inclined to just hand you a town read given the degree of effort and interaction. I know now that I cannot do that anymore with you and that means I'm going to poke and prod wherever I must to try to distinguish your play.

#276

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I don't know what to think of JJJ just yet; I know he's busier right now and in three games so I'll try not to judge him harshly for lack of supatown, but it's inevitable to hold high expectations for him. I've found his light interrogation of me to be a bit peculiar, and I don't really understand where he's coming from at all this game. I'd like to engage with him about this game in real time because we have zero mindmeld going on right now and that's just not right.
The highlighted portion would imply that you have disagreed with me on things I have asserted in this game. Obviously we're not going to mindmeld in the discussion we've had about your own content, so I assume you don't mean that. What else have I said that you've found disagreeable and what state of "mindmelding" would you consider to be of the expected degree for this point in the game?

I quickly ISOd your posts up through this post, and ehh, I guess I overestimated what was there; it was clearly an overexaggeration. I didn't find anything particularly disagreeable with respect to our reads; let me get back to you on this.

#277

I'm baaaaaaacckkk! Side note- Independence Day 2 better be as good as it looks

Anyway, I wasn't able to get on yesterday so I'm going to check up now. Seems quite a bit has transpired since then.

#278

MovingPictures07 wrote:
DrumBeats wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
DrumBeats wrote:Anybody want to trade votes tomorrow to loophole this self-voting thing? /s
What is the proposed gain with this suggestion?
It was entirely a joke. Hence the /s (sarcasm)
Oh, so that's what the /s was for!

If you want to be sarcastic here, there are [ sarc ] tags, which make the text orange. Sarcastic orange!

Sarcasm is easily lost in the text realm.

#279

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I assume this is what you're referring to, Matt:

Elohcin wrote:
Matt wrote:
Elohcin wrote:
Matt wrote:What's wrong with my post?

It's totally obvi niju needs to be destroyed.

So Say We All
Please share for those of us that its not "obvi" to.
I would like Bloops to respond to my interrogation before I go any further.
Exactly. Which means you have nothing. You just want to throw a name out there and see what happens. So no. No "obvi" here.
If you're town Matt then it'd appear you were reaction-baiting by espousing a read on nijuu with a degree of confidence that you didn't really boast. That's something I like to do often myself. With that in mind, I would say that Elohcin doesn't appear to be considering your maneuver from a town perspective, which is a rather restrictive mindset. If her assertion about your maneuver is accurate, then that'd mean you believed you could motivate an actual mislynch merely by crying out a baddie read and calling it obvious. That wouldn't seem to be a terribly well-reasoned strategy on your part which would make me wonder why Eloh's first instinct was to associate you with that strategy. I could see that being a smear job by her.

As for the comparison to DrWilgy's content, I don't know that that is so meaningful. He is renown for his nonsense and he loves it. People let him go in every game at this point because he has joined the school of Vompatti.

Can you somehow reword or elaborate upon this? I'm not coming to the same conclusion.

#280

Of the two people currently with votes, I would prefer a Zebra lynch over a Matt lynch. I don't really find Matt suspicious and I think at least some of his points against Elohcin are valid. Zebra has gone into full enigma mode which isn't any easier to read than a lurker would be. It strikes me as an uninspired lynch, but it's better than Matt.

#281

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I would consider Elohcin a candidate for my final vote. I do think her treatment of Matt was rather restrictive and it didn't really indicate that she was trying to figure him out -- rather it looked like she took an immediate stance and perhaps even Matt's bait. I'm also not convinced by her response to my assertion that she was a little overzealously interested in DrumBeats's proposal. I've said that this was a unique circumstance which poses a unique reactive challenge to the baddie team. I think it's more believable for people to express at least a little bit of honest paranoia/doubt before easing into the idea. She's responded to that accusation, but I'm not entirely inspired.

How is Elo's treatment of Matt different than mine? I'm genuinely curious as to your train of thought here.

#282

A question for everyone:

Why has there be consideration that Wilgy is cursed (from Elo), but no consideration that zebra is cursed, from anyone other than Matt? I find his "cheerleader" theory more believeable than Wilgy's behavior being forced or fabricated.

I haven't fully caught up yet so perhaps I've just not hit it yet. But why does zebra have votes exactly? The only person that has explained a suspicion of her as far as I've seen is DrumBeats.

#283

MovingPictures07 wrote:Can you somehow reword or elaborate upon this? I'm not coming to the same conclusion.

Matt threw out the rather arbitrary "nijuu is obviously the Process" bit. There's clearly not going to be a substantive case to support this assertion on Day 1 and I am sure Matt is well aware of that. I don't think it's terribly difficult to find a town mindset behind that move -- it'd be a reaction-baiting read. I do that sort of thing often in games too, especially early. With that in mind, I don't see much evidence that Elohcin was considering the dynamic of what Matt might be doing with an objective or broad enough mindset. I had thought she was outright accusing him for it on the basis that he was just "throwing names out there", though she has since claimed that this was more about playstyle and not an actual baddie read on him. That can be believed or not believed at face value. I do think it's dubious.

#284

DFaraday wrote:I'm not necessarily opposed to DB's idea, but I don't know if the baddies would actually go along with that, since it would require them to spend NKs on the Process but not the player behind it (or anyone else). We also don't know if DB's NK-then-lynch plan is even how to defeat the process.

As far as actual suspicions go, Zebra's weird behavior is striking me as very unhelpful and rather pingy. Matt a bit as well, but at least he's explained himself for the most part.

What about reywaS? His behavior has been the very definition of "very unhelpful"; he hasn't been here.

#285

MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I would consider Elohcin a candidate for my final vote. I do think her treatment of Matt was rather restrictive and it didn't really indicate that she was trying to figure him out -- rather it looked like she took an immediate stance and perhaps even Matt's bait. I'm also not convinced by her response to my assertion that she was a little overzealously interested in DrumBeats's proposal. I've said that this was a unique circumstance which poses a unique reactive challenge to the baddie team. I think it's more believable for people to express at least a little bit of honest paranoia/doubt before easing into the idea. She's responded to that accusation, but I'm not entirely inspired.
How is Elo's treatment of Matt different than mine? I'm genuinely curious as to your train of thought here.

Please show me the treatment you've given Matt that you're referring to and I will judge whether there's a meaningful parallel.

#286

MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I would consider Elohcin a candidate for my final vote. I do think her treatment of Matt was rather restrictive and it didn't really indicate that she was trying to figure him out -- rather it looked like she took an immediate stance and perhaps even Matt's bait. I'm also not convinced by her response to my assertion that she was a little overzealously interested in DrumBeats's proposal. I've said that this was a unique circumstance which poses a unique reactive challenge to the baddie team. I think it's more believable for people to express at least a little bit of honest paranoia/doubt before easing into the idea. She's responded to that accusation, but I'm not entirely inspired.
How is Elo's treatment of Matt different than mine? I'm genuinely curious as to your train of thought here.

Do you believe Elo when she says she thought Wilgy was "cursed", and that's why she didn't lecture him about his play the same way she did me?

I don't believe it, because Wilgy always acts the way he's been acting this game. So why think he was "cursed" ?

A parallel would be if someone came in the thread and said "Oh hey, Matt's talkin' some crazy theory shit, he must be cursed."

Derp.

#287

reywaS wrote:Sorry for being tardy to the party.

Greetings, rey! I look forward to your thoughts.

#288

Illyria wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:No one died on Night 1?

I don't understand why a number of people are suspecting me. I'll probably vote for DrumBeats today.
Drum, and you think I am skimming?

a2thezebra wrote:Whoa, this is coming out of nowhere!
No.. no it isn't.

I don't know you, so I can't speak to your playstyle but when several people whom I DO know are saying this is not normal, which is matching what my gut is telling me, I am going to listen.

I am reading every post, but the real crux is that I don't understand what is going with the game mechanics itself-- I am still not wanting to run w/Drum's plan (too risky) though at least I understand what you are saying better now than I did when you first posted it.

Matt, I think you and Elo have very different playstyles which can be problematic. I am reminded that you and I do as well, and you were like a damn dog with a bone decrying I was bad for what.. Four Mafia days?? I was not. I do not trust your instincts. So I am not following an Elo vote.

My list of who I suspect right now is not all that clear. So I am going to do a rainbow list like y'all like. In dark colors though, y'all are KILLING my old eyeballs with these neon and bright colors.

Maybe Good:
MP
Matt

No Idea:
Elo
JJJ
Drum
LA
llama
Rey
sig
niju
nero
DF
AATB
agle

Maybe Bad:
Dr Wilgy
Zebra

LA, congrats that is amazing. I am so proud of you!

You don't have any thoughts on what I presented regarding nutella, or anyone else for that matter?

#289

DrWilgy wrote:@Matt, the only thing that sticks out to me is that a curse day one would imply that actions were preformable on the 0.

Silly Illy, you just made the easiest rainbow list to make ever. Putting Zeebs and I at maybe bad. Of course we are maybe bad!

Actions were indeed able to be performed on Night 0.

#290

Illyria wrote:*sigh*

Dr Wilgy, I get that you are "zany", but your playstyle is making me want to vote for you.

But I am voting for zebra, I have to go to work and will be at work until 1 am tonight so I am voting now. Their confuzzled demeanor seems fake, and over the top.

Votes Zebra

What is the mafia motivation for this behavior?

#291

Elohcin wrote:You know, I am not going to be distracted by Matt's foolishness this game. I don;t think he is bad. I think he is just zany and his playstyle frustrates me.

My top suspect is Zebra and it is not only her overly confused behavior which seems forced and over the top. But it's also her comment about being able to trust DB in his plan to vote for an element if and only if the mafia takes out an element at night instead of a civilian. I believe her question, asking DB if she can trust him/the civs was a baddie slip.

You've lost my slight town read. Why do you only consider zebra's question under the interpretation of a baddie slip?

#292

DFaraday wrote:
agleaminranks wrote:Zebra has been posting nonsense that indicates nothing
It indicates that Zebra is playing in an unhelpful manner to the town, at least.

*votes Zebra*

So we're just going to policy lynch her and not discuss anything else?

I thought I brought meaningful content to the discussion regarding nutella, and literally NO ONE has commented on it, or anything else I've said about zebra. Why does it seem like no one gives a shit whether zebra is town or not?

This is nonsense.

#293

All six of zebra's voters, with perhaps the exception of DrumBeats: You're suspicious, regardless of zebra's alignment.

#294

MovingPictures07 wrote:
DFaraday wrote:
agleaminranks wrote:Zebra has been posting nonsense that indicates nothing
It indicates that Zebra is playing in an unhelpful manner to the town, at least.

*votes Zebra*
So we're just going to policy lynch her and not discuss anything else?

I thought I brought meaningful content to the discussion regarding nutella, and literally NO ONE has commented on it, or anything else I've said about zebra. Why does it seem like no one gives a shit whether zebra is town or not?

This is nonsense.

Agreed. I know that sounds ridiculous from Zebra's first voter, but for real.

Let's lynch Elo.

Linki - Lol. Whatevs man, I had my reason at the time. Believe me, wish I could take it back.

#295

zebra was the easy button lynch today. This is stupid. None of you even discussed anything else that I or others have brought to the table, and you've failed to explore other angles and bring them to the table yourself. To pull an Epi, I hate to say that this is a shameful display.

#296

DFaraday wrote:And no, I don't think Wilgy is being very helpful either, but he does this regardless of alignment. I don't recall Zebra ever behaving this way.

So because you interpret this behavior to be within zebra's meta, but Wilgy's is in within meta, then zebra's behavior being "weird" makes her worthy of your vote? How is that logical at all?

Weird DOES NOT EQUAL suspicious. Can anyone actually explain to me the mafia motivation behind zebra's actions?

#297

Elohcin wrote:
DFaraday wrote:And no, I don't think Wilgy is being very helpful either, but he does this regardless of alignment. I don't recall Zebra ever behaving this way.
If I had to name the top zany people on this site (right now) it would be Matt, Wilgy, and Zebra.

But you are right in that Zebra is extra zany this game. I am going to go ahead and vote that way. ZEBRA

What is this? You might as well have randomized. You're policy lynching zebra for no good reason.

#298

This is the worst Day 1 I've seen in a long time. I just can't even.

#299

Well, that was a lot to read...skimmed some of it there, but I'm mostly caught up now.

I think JaggedJimmyJay and MovingPictures07 are good. I like the back and forth discussion, even if it ends up creating way more content than I want to read, and I'm taking DB's word that he was being sarcastic and tabling that discussion.

As for my vote, I'm leaning Wigly just because of his (or her?) weird behavior. And I'm not super experienced by any means, but I see no good reasoning for calling yourself mafia. Playing weird or 'fake' outing yourself because its funny isn't an adequate defense of this to me.

Thoughts on this? As of now that's where my vote is, but I will consider alternatives.

#300

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Illyria wrote:Matt, I think you and Elo have very different playstyles which can be problematic. I am reminded that you and I do as well, and you were like a damn dog with a bone decrying I was bad for what.. Four Mafia days?? I was not. I do not trust your instincts. So I am not following an Elo vote.
This is suspicious at face value. You've discredited Elo's ability to make reads based upon her being wrong about you once. The comparison being drawn would also appear inaccurate given that Elo has insisted she doesn't read Matt as a baddie.

I agree.

Find the Camerata or the Process.