Battlestar Galactica Mafia - GAME OVER

[Polo]

I've won all of the 4 games I played.

[Long Con]

Epi, I understand how you would read Polo's post as a slip, but I think you're reading it the wrong.

You are saying he said "first lynch pardon" as though the Cylons have more lynch pardons. Only a Cylon could know that, so that would be a slip.

However, I'm pretty sure he was saying "first lynch" pardon - as in, the first time they get lynched, they can claim Cylon and get pardoned... but they can't do that for their subsequent lynches.

I don't have any idea if Polo is good or bad, but I do believe that it's not a slip.

[Long Con]

You guys will be wasting a lynch that could get you an actual baddie if you lynch me. You will literally be wasting a lynch and you will be one lynch behind come endgame when it matters. I can prove it if you just give me a little time. You seriously do not need to lynch me for any reason unless you are a Cylon.

What is your opinion of what I said earlier regarding Bea and OA?

I think OA has been acting absolutely nuts, and I don't believe for a minute that what she says about being punished for Cylon-claiming is true.

I don't think that makes her a baddie necessarily, because I think someone has done something to OA, Silverwolf, and Matt (and others have been alluded to, but I don't know). I think that OA is not allowed to say the words "Cylon" or "toaster" today for some reason, which is possibly related. I feel like they think I'm responsible for their current condition.

So... what about bea again?

Did you ISO OA?

No, I didn't need to, I read her posts the first time around, as they happened.

[Long Con]

Linki: I don't think what Bea did constitutes punishment regardless of her role because she made a general statement wifom (If I was final five...) and Golden's rules are to not quote inbox or info dump inbox. To me what she said is neither. I'm not golden so that's not my decision, but I don't see how others are saying she role claimed or info dumped. (And I actually think she's a mafia and I'm saying this, so it's not a defense of her role ... It's a defense of her post.)

Agreed, bea's statement could apply to any human except the top four who can't be Cylons. Unless the Final Five already know who they are, which I doubt, it's not any sort of role claim or info drop.

[Long Con]

You guys will be wasting a lynch that could get you an actual baddie if you lynch me. You will literally be wasting a lynch and you will be one lynch behind come endgame when it matters. I can prove it if you just give me a little time. You seriously do not need to lynch me for any reason unless you are a Cylon.

What is your opinion of what I said earlier regarding Bea and OA?

I think OA has been acting absolutely nuts, and I don't believe for a minute that what she says about being punished for Cylon-claiming is true.

I don't think that makes her a baddie necessarily, because I think someone has done something to OA, Silverwolf, and Matt (and others have been alluded to, but I don't know). I think that OA is not allowed to say the words "Cylon" or "toaster" today for some reason, which is possibly related. I feel like they think I'm responsible for their current condition.

So... what about bea again?

I'm quoting this post for no other reason than that I like your face.

I think that OA likes my face best when it is speaking things she can't say herself, but would like to.

I think maybe we'll find out more tomorrow. I really really hope we do.

[Epignosis]

Epi, I understand how you would read Polo's post as a slip, but I think you're reading it the wrong.

You are saying he said "first lynch pardon" as though the Cylons have more lynch pardons. Only a Cylon could know that, so that would be a slip.

However, I'm pretty sure he was saying "first lynch" pardon - as in, the first time they get lynched, they can claim Cylon and get pardoned... but they can't do that for their subsequent lynches.

I don't have any idea if Polo is good or bad, but I do believe that it's not a slip.

As opposed to a "second lynch" pardon, right?

[Long Con]

People should simply address what has been pointed at in regards to him being a Cylon and decide if it sounds genuine / plausible / etc. or not. You can stick with the Cain vibes just as much, if you like, but address actual suggestive statements made in the game first. My only gripe, as I've said before, is for it not to turn out to be yet another messy "Boomslang gambit".

I understand the Cain suspicion. Cain's goal is eliminating all Cylons, and I have been clear that my goal is also to eliminate all Cylons. Most of the other stuff S~V~S has said is stuff she hasn't supported, only repeated. She says that I wanted to get lynched, but doesn't explain why she says that. She says that things like my "agenda" and my "demeanor" changed when Cain came on the scene, but she doesn't say why. Maybe she doesn't have the time to go through my posts and show everyone why she thinks that, I don't know. She's blithely ignoring much of what I have to say in response to her, I'm pretty sure that she thinks that she needs me dead to win. She's doing a fantastic job, actually, I'm really impressed, she's convinced a number of people that her views are just Civ/human viewpoint that they should share.

I understand the Cain suspicion. The Cylon suspicion is total crap. I have nothing to say in defense of the Cylon accusation, because there's nothing to say in support of it.

[Long Con]

Epi, I understand how you would read Polo's post as a slip, but I think you're reading it the wrong.

You are saying he said "first lynch pardon" as though the Cylons have more lynch pardons. Only a Cylon could know that, so that would be a slip.

However, I'm pretty sure he was saying "first lynch" pardon - as in, the first time they get lynched, they can claim Cylon and get pardoned... but they can't do that for their subsequent lynches.

I don't have any idea if Polo is good or bad, but I do believe that it's not a slip.

As opposed to a "second lynch" pardon, right?

Yes. I said "subsequent lynches", but for most people, that "second lynch" is the only other lynch they'll need.

I... don't know what you're getting at, Epi.

[S~V~S]

Thought this was interesting.

Linki, I have given my train of thought multiple times,LC. This is how I operate and is how I have always operated. You made that post about the person with the second most votes, you seemed to be trying to get lynched,you seemed to not care about what happened or what you did. You were waiting for something to happen, your overall thread behavior & demeanor points to it. Then something did happen and your demeanor changed literally overnight.

All they need to do it read your ISO. I am not going to quote every post you made this game becasue the difference in pre Cain LC & post Cain LC is notable. They just have to read you.

I will do anything up to and including any possible public humiliating apology you like if you are NOT Cain. What surprises me is that more people don;t see it, your shift was so clear to me.

[S~V~S]

Oh also all that business about how all Cylons must die, and then Cain imposes her "All Cylons Must Die" win cons on everyone.

[Marmot]

I've won all of the 4 games I played.

Don't tell Ricochet.

[Long Con]

People should simply address what has been pointed at in regards to him being a Cylon and decide if it sounds genuine / plausible / etc. or not. You can stick with the Cain vibes just as much, if you like, but address actual suggestive statements made in the game first. My only gripe, as I've said before, is for it not to turn out to be yet another messy "Boomslang gambit".

I play based on my gut and how I feel about others. Especially people like LC who is a very careful baddie. If you are unhappy with the way I present my suspicion, don't vote based on it. But please don;t tell me how I should address things, ok? I have no clue what a Boomslang Gambit is, all I know is how I play the game.

When you say "please don't tell me how to address things", that's fine, but the fact is that some players here are "addressing things" falsely, or avoiding addressing things in a straightforward way, or purposely addressing things in a manipulative way. Sometimes, critical analysis of HOW a player addresses things IS how you catch a baddie.

So, I'd like to counter that statement with, go ahead and tell anyone you want "how to address things", if you think it will help get to the truth and get a Civ win. When you do that, be sure not to be a dick about it, so as to avoid anyone getting their feathers ruffled.

[Marmot]

Marmots don't have feathers. Do your worst SVS!!!

[Dom]

Everyone has been modkilled. Golden and Dom win!

OK, not really. But I think it's the only way I'm going to get a win this year around here.

[Long Con]

Thought this was interesting.

Linki, I have given my train of thought multiple times,LC. This is how I operate and is how I have always operated. You made that post about the person with the second most votes, you seemed to be trying to get lynched,you seemed to not care about what happened or what you did. You were waiting for something to happen, your overall thread behavior & demeanor points to it. Then something did happen and your demeanor changed literally overnight.

All they need to do it read your ISO. I am not going to quote every post you made this game becasue the difference in pre Cain LC & post Cain LC is notable. They just have to read you.

I will do anything up to and including any possible public humiliating apology you like if you are NOT Cain. What surprises me is that more people don;t see it, your shift was so clear to me.

Ok, that makes sense, it IS up to other people to verify these things for themselves if they want to agree with your suspicion. If there is any sort of "change" in my behaviour, then I guarantee it is in response to other players (like you) and how they changed toward me. I didn't change a single thing about my motives or goals or playstyle based on game events, because those things have not changed for me. I'm going to repost the quote above. The parts that are true will be golden-yellow, and the parts that are your supposed, unsupported opinion will be in orangey-red.

I have given my train of thought multiple times,LC. This is how I operate and is how I have always operated. You made that post about the person with the second most votes, you seemed to be trying to get lynched,you seemed to not care about what happened or what you did. You were waiting for something to happen, your overall thread behavior & demeanor points to it. Then something did happen and your demeanor changed literally overnight.

And I think it's misleading to say I "made that post about the person with the second most votes", because that post was about every role in the game. I made comments that I felt were relevant with every role that needed it. When I mentioned Helo, I said "This guy could surprise us one day when someone with second-most votes gets lynched. We should watch the second-most-voted as we place our votes... just in case." This isn't a role hint, this is a smart caution for players to be aware of when they are voting. You think that mentioning something to watch out for is supposed to be a role hint? No, it was not. And neither were any of the other roles I mentioned hints, whether I am one of them or not.

[Golden]

THE SHOW MUST GO ON

Ricochet was sitting in the CIC, Pepsi can in hand. The can itself was empty - he had found it in the trash, which unusually hadn't been ejected into space to ensure colonial relics were found and survived.

On an entirely different note, Scotty died, leaving in his wake a great absence of artistes in the colony. Thankfully, the president knew just what to do to compensate for that... (ominous music)

Scotty has died. It is now day 5. This day will last for 72 hours. The fleet may be jumped for the last half of that time.

[Epignosis]

juliets!

Who'd you snuff on your birthday?

Oh, it was Scotty, I see.

[Golden]

The president of the colonies has brought in a new law:

Revival of the Arts Act: As many of the arts of the colonies were lost in the attack, we must begin to add to our arts collection. Each day, one random player must post only in haiku.

[Golden]

Juliets is required to post in haiku only for the duration of day 5.

[S~V~S]

Hrm, that does not much sound like the President restored win cons. But yay for haiku

RIP Scotty

[Golden]

Hey guys and gals and little green things,

It's Adama again! ISN'T ADMIRAL CAIN JUST A GREAT LEADER *mutters something unintelligible, coughs*. I'M SO HAPPY WE HAVE HER HERE NOW TO GUIDE US TOWARD THE FUTURE AND STUFF *you're not sure, but it sounds like Adama was armpit farting throughout that sentence*. She's even letting me take some time off to spend with the kids *prolonged spazzy screech*.

DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR.

So say we all

[Long Con]

So say we all. RIP Scotty. Thank you Adama, for speaking out against people who wanna lynch Cain. That would be a traitorous attitude.

The president of the colonies has brought in a new law:

Revival of the Arts Act: As many of the arts of the colonies were lost in the attack, we must begin to add to our arts collection. Each day, one random player must post only in haiku.

Did you even try?

[S~V~S]

So say we all.

That could be understood in a variety of ways.

Let's all put our top three on the table.

For me it is Wilgy, sig & LC. It might have been Wilgy, Faraday & LC, but Dex is representing imo.

Linki,Um, I read that in exactly the opposite way but OK

[Epignosis]

So say we all

sig, LC, and 3J.

[Polo]

So say we all!

Dr. Wilgy, Sig and Glorfindel. Zebra and JJJ are close.

[Epignosis]

And I know 3J asked last night, but I have nothing new to raise. When I gave him the pretzel award, I don't think he was genuinely invested in what he was saying. He was making the evidence fit the conclusion he wanted.

[Black Rock]

The president of the colonies has brought in a new law:

Revival of the Arts Act: As many of the arts of the colonies were lost in the attack, we must begin to add to our arts collection. Each day, one random player must post only in haiku.

Hey guys and gals and little green things,

It's Adama again! ISN'T ADMIRAL CAIN JUST A GREAT LEADER *mutters something unintelligible, coughs*. I'M SO HAPPY WE HAVE HER HERE NOW TO GUIDE US TOWARD THE FUTURE AND STUFF *you're not sure, but it sounds like Adama was armpit farting throughout that sentence*. She's even letting me take some time off to spend with the kids *prolonged spazzy screech*.

DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR.

So say we all

So say we all...

So Adama did not watch the show... and is not SVS. SVS is cylon after all. That's what I take from this thread. I will likely vote for SVS today. Her interests do not seem to align with the humans, she can't be trusted. Which breaks my heart.

[Epignosis]

[sig]

Scotty was killed to frame me imo.

Either way I'm a cylon. There I claimed (even though I'm not)

I think whoever killed scotty is going to use it as a spring board to get a civ to push me I flip civ then they lynch the person who originally pushed my lynch.

[Epignosis]

Scotty was killed to frame me imo.

Either way I'm a cylon. There I claimed (even though I'm not)

I think whoever killed scotty is going to use it as a spring board to get a civ to push me I flip civ then they lynch the person who originally pushed my lynch.

sig, there are twelve hundred reasons to lynch you, and none of them have anything to do with Scotty's death.

[S~V~S]

The president of the colonies has brought in a new law:

Revival of the Arts Act: As many of the arts of the colonies were lost in the attack, we must begin to add to our arts collection. Each day, one random player must post only in haiku.

Hey guys and gals and little green things,

It's Adama again! ISN'T ADMIRAL CAIN JUST A GREAT LEADER *mutters something unintelligible, coughs*. I'M SO HAPPY WE HAVE HER HERE NOW TO GUIDE US TOWARD THE FUTURE AND STUFF *you're not sure, but it sounds like Adama was armpit farting throughout that sentence*. She's even letting me take some time off to spend with the kids *prolonged spazzy screech*.

DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR.

So say we all

So say we all...

So Adama did not watch the show... and is not SVS. SVS is cylon after all. That's what I take from this thread. I will likely vote for SVS today. Her interests do not seem to align with the humans, she can't be trusted. Which breaks my heart.

I think LCis bad so I am a Cylon?

[sig]

So say we all.


shit,

linki: No there aren't.

[sig]

I bet you can't name more then 50 Epi.

[S~V~S]

Did you think I was Adama? This post confuses me, BR.

[Epignosis]

I bet you can't name more then 50 Epi.

The first forty-five are iterations of how you need to just hush and nibble on some popcorn right now...shhh....

[Long Con]

Linki,Um, I read that in exactly the opposite way but OK

Well, duh. It's open to interpretation. He's clearly irritated about Cain, but that "traitor" part is pretty adamant.

I think LCis bad so I am a Cylon?

Well, first, no, I'm not bad, and second, BR didn't say anything about me being bad. Why are you instantly trying to alter what she said?

[Epignosis]

Hey guys and gals and little green things,

It's Adama again! ISN'T ADMIRAL CAIN JUST A GREAT LEADER *mutters something unintelligible, coughs*. I'M SO HAPPY WE HAVE HER HERE NOW TO GUIDE US TOWARD THE FUTURE AND STUFF *you're not sure, but it sounds like Adama was armpit farting throughout that sentence*. She's even letting me take some time off to spend with the kids *prolonged spazzy screech*.

DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR.

So say we all

Whoever he is, Adama's a male.

[S~V~S]

Linki,Um, I read that in exactly the opposite way but OK

Well, duh. It's open to interpretation. He's clearly irritated about Cain, but that "traitor" part is pretty adamant.

I think LCis bad so I am a Cylon?

Well, first, no, I'm not bad, and second, BR didn't say anything about me being bad. Why are you instantly trying to alter what she said?

I thought he was saying allegiance to you is being a traitor

And that is the only thing I can think of that she is saying, becasue sayingyou were bad is literally all I have been talking about for days; what else would she be referring to but what I was talking about?

I don;t understand what she means.

[Silverwolf]

So say we all!

RIP Scotty, I feel like no one listens to the dead so let me break down your ISO and maybe we can get something out of it.

He heavily suspected sig and also suspected Glorfindel. He was a major proponent of everyome claiming cylon and suspicious of those who didn't. He believed Epi was town aligned and asserted that quite a few times in his ISO.

Did put a vote on nutella and suspected her. He also suspected Long Con, Rico, and D'Faraday. Laid out some decent points on D'Faraday early in the game and early on, thought LC was human before later mentioning he was suspicious of Long Con.

Had a townread on Zebra. Suspicious of Rico for the ika kill mostly.

Voted D'Faraday, nutella, and sig twice.

So, he was likely chosen for something here as there was probably a reason to kill him in this stuff. Either the killers don't like the plan on having everyone claiming cylon and took someone out supporting that and/or sig, Glorfindel, Rico, Long Con, D'Faraday took him out. Or they thought he was never gonna be lynched and wanted to remove someone like that.

My top suspects are sig, Long Con, D'Faraday-replacement. A few are suspicious of JJJ-what's the case? I'm genuinely curious because I see him doing a lot of gamesolving along with Rico which is why I have those two as town. If either, both of them are scum, I'm likely not gonna catch them at this point so I'd like to see some reasoning on why if you suspect them. I'm open to listening on anyone as I'm have a really hard time getting good reads this game. It's frustrating the hell out of me tbh. Maybe it's cuz I don't know the lore.

[Dex]

So Say We All!

LC, or one of the Suspicious Seven: Zebra, Glorfindel, Vompati, Obscure, Rico, Sok, or Wilgy.

[S~V~S]

And I was not putting words into anyones mouth, I am trying to understand what she means.

BR has not said anything to me or about me the whole game, so I am hard pressed to understand why she suddenly thinks I am bad if it is not related to my main topic of discussion for some time now, how I think that you are bad, LC.

Thanks for dropping the time back Golden. I a still staying up too late lol.

[SokothQultuq]

I know Polo posted a list, but just wanted to post my updated list... (they might be the same, probably are, derp)...

a2thezebra
DrWilgy
Epignosis
Glorfindel
OA
Ricotech
sig
Sokoth
Vompatti

9 players. Is that correct? Someone said 7 earlier, so I don't know if I'm missing something somewhere...

Of the names above, I am most curious of the red. Oh, and OA. She def not civ, right?

Daisy, Sokoth seems to be a friend of yours. What do you make of him seeing you claim Cylon but he won't do it himself? As a noob to Mafia, I'd assume he'd look to your lead in situations like this where the town is conflicted.

sig - I'm not down with anyone not claiming but I find you most curious because you have been legit asking others to claim but you won't do it yourself. Wtf?

Anyway, off to work. Peace

Actually I'm mostly on my own on this one, she does not want to break the rules and nor do I. Seeking guidance in a way might taint the experience.

To answer your question, I don't think it matters either way. I do not feel that making a claim that isn't true is correct in my moral compass. Why should I just get on the band wagon and say "Hey yeah, I'm a cylon" no. That's not me. You want proof I'm not a cylon. Find another way. I just don't see the benefit in it. Not to me or the entire group. If my claiming I'm a cylon has a "real" benefit then tell me what that is in a way I understand and I will gladly do so if it does not upset my moral compass. Some would say by doing this your all cylon or cylon sympathizers. The possibilities in this are endless but again I don't see the point.

As I stated before, I'm happy to answer questions you might have. I'm not exactly sure how I would convince you that I am or am not a Cylon. It's hard to find where you fit into this when everyone seems to know everyone, their habits and i'm sitting here watching trying to figure you all out so that I can make an informed decision and vote. But I've not a clue. Accept the little things I see in people or the little tells about there character or potential anyhow. I get that this isn't a "Role" play thing but I fail to see how you can get a "read" on anyone coming into something like this with no prior experience. So your about as lost about my role as I am about most of yours.

This is half of why I don't post that much. I'm here reading and trying to figure this out. One thing I do know is I will stay true to me. Stubborn when I believe in something until proven otherwise. Welcome to me. LOL

[Black Rock]

The president of the colonies has brought in a new law:

Revival of the Arts Act: As many of the arts of the colonies were lost in the attack, we must begin to add to our arts collection. Each day, one random player must post only in haiku.

Hey guys and gals and little green things,

It's Adama again! ISN'T ADMIRAL CAIN JUST A GREAT LEADER *mutters something unintelligible, coughs*. I'M SO HAPPY WE HAVE HER HERE NOW TO GUIDE US TOWARD THE FUTURE AND STUFF *you're not sure, but it sounds like Adama was armpit farting throughout that sentence*. She's even letting me take some time off to spend with the kids *prolonged spazzy screech*.

DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR. DON'T BE A TRAITOR.

So say we all

So say we all...

So Adama did not watch the show... and is not SVS. SVS is cylon after all. That's what I take from this thread. I will likely vote for SVS today. Her interests do not seem to align with the humans, she can't be trusted. Which breaks my heart.

I think LCis bad so I am a Cylon?

No. I didn't mention LC at all. It's your words and opinions. Once Epignosis was looked onto as a civvie your opinions have changed a lot. He is literally the only Cylon (listed under Cylons) I would trust. I would trust some humans that may have a dodgy history over Cylons. Their dodgy history always had the humans best interest at heart. I don't believe you do.

[Epignosis]

Black Rock, I'd say the burden of proof is on you right now, so I'm listening.

[Polo]

SokothQultuq, the benefits of everyone claiming cylon is overturning the efficiency of the Cylon Amnesty Act. Do you want Cylons to enjoy immunity? If you do, then don't claim Cylon. If you want them to be lynchable, then claim Cylon. Do you understand the logic behind this?

So Say We All!

LC, or one of the Suspicious Seven: Zebra, Glorfindel, Vompati, Obscure, Rico, Sok, or Wilgy.

Do you not suspect Sig?

[Silverwolf]

My top suspects are sig, Long Con, D'Faraday-replacement.

I am also suspicious of Glorfindel and Wilgy. If D'Faraday replacement keeps posting, I can re-evaluate that read. I'd be willing to give him that chance.

Wilgy is based on IAWY not doing anything like his scum game in championship game and Wilgy even admitted he lays low as scum and he's def laying low this game. Sig and Long Con are obvious bad guys. The only thing I am hesitant on is that Long Con has a few good posts like his reachout to me and sig isn't playing like his bad game in championship where he looked pretty town by giving lots of reads.

linki-I think Sokoth is being pretty genuine this game and am not inclined to lynch him at this time

[Black Rock]

And I was not putting words into anyones mouth, I am trying to understand what she means.

BR has not said anything to me or about me the whole game, so I am hard pressed to understand why she suddenly thinks I am bad if it is not related to my main topic of discussion for some time now, how I think that you are bad, LC.

Thanks for dropping the time back Golden. I a still staying up too late lol.

I used to think you had the humans best interests at heart. I no longer think you do. I just focused on LoRab first and had a hiccup with the game. Now that is over and I have shaken my head, I realize you aren't my friend this game.

[Black Rock]

Black Rock, I'd say the burden of proof is on you right now, so I'm listening.

I am much too much with the rye and coke tonight. Explain this further.

I also know claiming SVS as an enemy is like shooting myself in the foot. I don't expect people to believe me. It's just who we are.

[SokothQultuq]

SokothQultuq, the benefits of everyone claiming cylon is overturning the efficiency of the Cylon Amnesty Act. Do you want Cylons to enjoy immunity? If you do, then don't claim Cylon. If you want them to be lynchable, then claim Cylon. Do you understand the logic behind this?

So Say We All!

LC, or one of the Suspicious Seven: Zebra, Glorfindel, Vompati, Obscure, Rico, Sok, or Wilgy.

Do you not suspect Sig?

No actually I do not. Essentially your saying that if everyone does not Claim they are a Cylon then anyone at any point can just drop that rule to keep from being killed off. I don't see it that way. The rule was that if you claim it you can only claim it once and use the immunity that time. It's not continual. The only people who can use it is the people who have not claimed it regardless if they are or are not a cylon. So I still do not see how making a claim such as this helps the whole. I do not see your logic. Unless I'm wrong and the law stays active as long as one of us does not claim it and it can be used whenever... Which is it?

[S~V~S]

And I was not putting words into anyones mouth, I am trying to understand what she means.

BR has not said anything to me or about me the whole game, so I am hard pressed to understand why she suddenly thinks I am bad if it is not related to my main topic of discussion for some time now, how I think that you are bad, LC.

Thanks for dropping the time back Golden. I a still staying up too late lol.

I used to think you had the humans best interests at heart. I no longer think you do. I just focused on LoRab first and had a hiccup with the game. Now that is over and I have shaken my head, I realize you aren't my friend this game.

I am sorry you feel that way but you are mistaken. I am a human, but I do not think all the Cylons are baddies. And I hate the win cons that say they are. I want the win cons that we had back. And since the president gave us the silliest law possible, I think that is telling us that the President is unable to get us out old wincons back. Which means the admiral has to go.