[ENDGAME] The Office Mafia

[DrumBeats]

Thinking about it, I would like Quin to answer that question as well.

If leetic and Eloh are around/when they get around, I would like them to do so as well, and add the following players to the list:

Quin
LoRab

[Quin]

Thinking about it, I would like Quin to answer that question as well.

If leetic and Eloh are around/when they get around, I would like them to do so as well, and add the following players to the list:

Quin
LoRab

Will do.

[LoRab]

So basically I was right. Cool.

New rule: We should all present everything as fact. Get rid of any "I think" or "Maybe" statements in order to allow everything we say to be checked by Pam.


@ linki Quin - you've given me worse reasons to push you than that, but INH is my current vote. You're a close second though, and LoRab is working his way up to third

@ linki LoRab - What are your thoughts on the following people? :

INH
3J
Scotty
Matt
Indiglo
birdwithteeth11

No, you were not right. You were presenting conjecture. That is not a claim. That is not checkable. You apparently missed the "context" part of Dom's explanation.

And, as I said, I have barely had time to spend reading this game. I do not have opinions on most things or players at this point. I like to think about things and come to some conclusions before I form suspicions. I don't often give opinions by request.

[Quin]

LoRab, while we wait, care to give some reads that aren't mechanics related?

@ linki Quin - its just as useless then though. If items are in play, people will find them. That's confirmation of items without Pam wasting a shot.

A player encouraging a civ to waste their role is, IMHO, not mechanics related.

And I don't have many other reads. With limited time to devote to reading through this game, that is the only ping I've really had at this point.

What is your perspective on me now knowing what you now know?

[LoRab]

LoRab, while we wait, care to give some reads that aren't mechanics related?

@ linki Quin - its just as useless then though. If items are in play, people will find them. That's confirmation of items without Pam wasting a shot.

A player encouraging a civ to waste their role is, IMHO, not mechanics related.

And I don't have many other reads. With limited time to devote to reading through this game, that is the only ping I've really had at this point.

What is your perspective on me now knowing what you now know?

Dom has confirmed what I said, so my opinion has not changed.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to leave the INH debate as it is. INH if you'd like to answer again be my guest, but I think the usefulness of these debates plummets after a certain number of posts. Nobody will be reading it anymore.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am thoroughly confused by this discussion between Quin and LoRab. They seem to be saying the same thing and disagreeing vehemently over it.

[Dom]

I am not answering any more questions about the checkability of statements. I assess them with Pam on a case by case basis. We are very capable.

[LoRab]

I am thoroughly confused by this discussion between Quin and LoRab. They seem to be saying the same thing and disagreeing vehemently over it.

Quin has been listing conjectures for Pam to check in the thread, claiming that those conjectures are checkable by Pam as lies or not.

This is not accurate.

I believe she is intentionally trying to get Pam to waste her role. I find it hard to believe that she doesn't understand the difference between claims and theories and why one would be checkable and the other not.

[Quin]

I am thoroughly confused by this discussion between Quin and LoRab. They seem to be saying the same thing and disagreeing vehemently over it.

He earlier called me out for feigning ignorance as to the LD's limitations, and right now I'm kind of seeing the same thing here in that he's pretending not to realise he's wrong in the hopes he can latch onto the possibility of voting me later. Or maybe he's misinterpreting what Dom said. But I think it's the former.

[Quin]

So basically I was right. Cool.

New rule: We should all present everything as fact. Get rid of any "I think" or "Maybe" statements in order to allow everything we say to be checked by Pam.


@ linki Quin - you've given me worse reasons to push you than that, but INH is my current vote. You're a close second though, and LoRab is working his way up to third

@ linki LoRab - What are your thoughts on the following people? :

INH
3J
Scotty
Matt
Indiglo
birdwithteeth11

Since I've checked this morning INH has gone from a slight civ lean to a slight baddie lean. His back and forth with 3J didn't do a whole lot for my opinion, moreso it was the fact that his defense of me could easily have been feigned for the purposes of gaining civ cred.

I have a slight civ lean on 3J, mainly because he shares some of my concerns and he defended when it was not necessary to do so.

I haven't given enough attention to Scotty. I think I recall promising to look more deeply at Scotty, so I guess I'll have a look at him because he's flying pretty under the radar.

I've already given my opinions on Matt, but I would struggle to lean either way on him.

indiglo could be argued to be in the same position as INH, because INH's defence stemmed from indiglo. However, I'd put him as a civ lean because he also addressed SVS in the same post, so it didn't feel like I was his priority or that he had any agenda.

BWT is a baddie from my perspective. His vote for me was highly opportunistic and felt like an attempt to join a bandwagon while still maintaining his independence and bringing his own argument to the table.

Quin is a special snowflake that people should leave alone.

And my opinion on LoRab is the same as the above post.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am thoroughly confused by this discussion between Quin and LoRab. They seem to be saying the same thing and disagreeing vehemently over it.

Quin has been listing conjectures for Pam to check in the thread, claiming that those conjectures are checkable by Pam as lies or not.

This is not accurate.

I believe she is intentionally trying to get Pam to waste her role. I find it hard to believe that she doesn't understand the difference between claims and theories and why one would be checkable and the other not.

Could you please show me the conjectures you're referring to? Much of the context here is lost on me, because it looked like he was promoting a concrete statement be checked.

~~~

Separate note: I don't care about the bloody lie detector role and I encourage Pam to just do her thing.

[LoRab]

I am thoroughly confused by this discussion between Quin and LoRab. They seem to be saying the same thing and disagreeing vehemently over it.

He earlier called me out for feigning ignorance as to the LD's limitations, and right now I'm kind of seeing the same thing here in that he's pretending not to realise he's wrong in the hopes he can latch onto the possibility of voting me later. Or maybe he's misinterpreting what Dom said. But I think it's the former.

Dom was clear. You are not understanding what Dom has said. I believe that you are feigning ignorance. I am not wrong--you are.

Having played in many, many games with LD's, I cannot even begin to comprehend why what you are claiming would begin to make sense. If I thought you were being accurate, I would probably quit the game because it wouldn't make sense in terms of game set up--but I trust that Dom hasn't changed the idea of an LD so much as to make it an entirely different role (which would be an interesting role, but isn't what an LD does or should be able to do).

Does anyone else who has ever played with an LD think that an LD can determine if a conjecture is correct or not, especially when posted in a list of conjectures listed for the explicit purpose of being checked?

Also, I'm female.

linkitis: I will link momentarily.

[Quin]

By the way, it doesn't appear as though we earned any new role descriptions by voting Sales last night.

[espers]

You know what helps a lie detector? Quietly making a statement that you know will help them see that you are civ.

You know what doesn't help them? Getting all players to say it and getting the whole thing thrown out as unusable.

And what really really doesn't help is then winking and saying you knew that, Muhuhaha. Because now day 1 is about you.

not a fan. Maybe you won't care. And because of course you will ask. I am town aligned.

I thinkyou're talking to me so I'll respond. I wasn't going to ask anybody else to say it because the point's already been made that saying 'I am town aligned' isn't worth a damn to a lie detector. It was unusable from the start, so there's no reason why I can't find a use for it myself.

-wink-, muhuhaha.

Muhuhaha indeed, lol!

People who know Quin, how likely is it that he would read that role and miss the part about not using blanket statements? I'm rusty, and have lost track of who plays like what...

This post reminds me of what I've done in the past as scum, asking about someone's meta to look like you're producing content and shift the focus onto others if they bite. timmer is hedgy with this, not committing to a stance.

Also, it seems pretty inaccurate to say that quin missed that part of the role when he acknowledged it in the post timmer was referring to here. Bad look.

[DrumBeats]

You had enough time to worry about the mechanic enough to private message Dom about it and then argue it

But this discussion on what Pam can/cannot do is getting us nowhere. Based on many of the things that Dom has said I am relatively sure that the lists I have been posting were presented as a claim in context and would be fair game for her, and I will continue to provide her with resources as I see fit. I would assume Dom would let Pam know if something was uncheckable when she sends it in, so no harm in it imo.

@ linki 3J - Basically:

Dom has said made two posts clarifying what is allowed for a lie detector saying that context matters. One of said posts differentiated between theorizing ("I think X and X share BTSC") and claiming ("X and X share BTSC).

LoRab believes that context means that if I were to say right now "X and X share BTSC" but I do not have any knowledge to ascertain that, it would be an invalid statement that could not be checked.

I believe (and I think Quin does as well) that context refers to Dom's previous post about how a statement is worded and that my statement would be lie detectable.

Basically it's a ton of semi-useless mechanics discussion, but it is the basis of LoRab's only suspicion, and he refuses to give reads on anyone else.

@ linki LoRab - Though we disagree on what can be checked, I do agree that Quin could potentially be wanting Pam to waste the checks, based on the sheer uselessness of Quin's suggestions. I do also believe that you could be trying to hinder Pam from getting information from my lists.

@ linki Quin Thanks for the reads

@ linki 3J - I agree on letting Pam do her thing, but I also believe that the more resources she has, the more effective she can do her thing.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This post reminds me of what I've done in the past as scum, asking about someone's meta to look like you're producing content and shift the focus onto others if they bite. timmer is hedgy with this, not committing to a stance.

Also, it seems pretty inaccurate to say that quin missed that part of the role when he acknowledged it in the post timmer was referring to here. Bad look.

I like this post. The point espers makes is a valid one which timmer should answer to. I like the post though because I think where espers's head is at; this looks like a genuine read to me.

[Quin]

I am thoroughly confused by this discussion between Quin and LoRab. They seem to be saying the same thing and disagreeing vehemently over it.

He earlier called me out for feigning ignorance as to the LD's limitations, and right now I'm kind of seeing the same thing here in that he's pretending not to realise he's wrong in the hopes he can latch onto the possibility of voting me later. Or maybe he's misinterpreting what Dom said. But I think it's the former.

Dom was clear. You are not understanding what Dom has said. I believe that you are feigning ignorance. I am not wrong--you are.

Having played in many, many games with LD's, I cannot even begin to comprehend why what you are claiming would begin to make sense. If I thought you were being accurate, I would probably quit the game because it wouldn't make sense in terms of game set up--but I trust that Dom hasn't changed the idea of an LD so much as to make it an entirely different role (which would be an interesting role, but isn't what an LD does or should be able to do).

Does anyone else who has ever played with an LD think that an LD can determine if a conjecture is correct or not, especially when posted in a list of conjectures listed for the explicit purpose of being checked?

Also, I'm female.

linkitis: I will link momentarily.

There is clearly a discrepancy between Dom's LD role and the ones you are used to.

If something is presented as fact. A claim. That is checkable.

This is all I need in order to prove that what I'm saying is correct, LoRab. What I presented was presented as fact.

I'm honestly not sure why I'm arguing this. It feels like such a moot point.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

EBWOP

This post reminds me of what I've done in the past as scum, asking about someone's meta to look like you're producing content and shift the focus onto others if they bite. timmer is hedgy with this, not committing to a stance.

Also, it seems pretty inaccurate to say that quin missed that part of the role when he acknowledged it in the post timmer was referring to here. Bad look.

I like this post. The point espers makes is a valid one which timmer should answer to. I like the post though because I like where espers's head is at; this looks like a genuine read to me.

[LoRab]

I am thoroughly confused by this discussion between Quin and LoRab. They seem to be saying the same thing and disagreeing vehemently over it.

Quin has been listing conjectures for Pam to check in the thread, claiming that those conjectures are checkable by Pam as lies or not.

This is not accurate.

I believe she is intentionally trying to get Pam to waste her role. I find it hard to believe that she doesn't understand the difference between claims and theories and why one would be checkable and the other not.

Could you please show me the conjectures you're referring to? Much of the context here is lost on me, because it looked like he was promoting a concrete statement be checked.

~~~

Separate note: I don't care about the bloody lie detector role and I encourage Pam to just do her thing.

Here you go:

Here is where Quin first brings up the idea:

If Pam is able to detect lies in all statements (excluding the obvious), I wonder whether it matters if the statement is made by someone who knows whether or not its the truth themselves. I'm going to ask Dom about it, and if he says it's right, it might be a good idea to just stockpile a whole bunch of hypotheses so she can gather information.

She even says that they are hypotheses (which is the same thing as conjecture or theories). Then, when given an answer, she posts a list of theories, posted for the sole purpose of Pam checking them, as opposed to making claims.

And it is clear that Quin knows what a claim is, as she made one regarding her role.

I made sure to get up super dooper early this morning to catch up, even if it is freezing cold.

If Pam is able to detect lies in all statements (excluding the obvious), I wonder whether it matters if the statement is made by someone who knows whether or not its the truth themselves. I'm going to ask Dom about it, and if he says it's right, it might be a good idea to just stockpile a whole bunch of hypotheses so she can gather information.

If a statement can be rendered true or false (i.e. Factual not opinion based) and does not break the alignment rule I gave earlier then it is check able.

So, let's come up with some hypotheses for our good pal Pam.

There are items in this game.
We will eventually receive a complete role list.
Voting for either of the three options on Day 0 would have had had a different effect on the game.

Add your own.

linkitis: @drumbeats: I happen to be online now. And I'm arguing because I'm cranky and because I strongly believe that I am correct and that this is indicative of Quin being bad. I'm less convinced aobut you. But because you are posting those lists for the purpose of them being checked--not because you are making a claim, I do not think that they are checkable. And I disagree that there is no harm in Pam submitting a statement that cannot be checked. In general, if a statement cannot be checked, then the LD is not able to submit a follow up statement, at least in my experience (as player and host). So it wastes the role for that night. That is why I think Quin's intentions are not good. And why I hope Pam has the sense to use her brain to check actual pieces of posts for truth/lies.

linkitis: @Quin: That doesn't make sense. What you posted, and encouraged others to post, was not presented as fact/claim--it was presented as theory and hypothesis.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My immediate take on the LoRab/Quin controversy:

They're both accusing each other of crimes that I find doubtful. I can understand the accusations, but they look to me like the kinds of things that people accuse each other of in every game but nobody ever actually does them. Pretending to misunderstand a role that is plainly visible in the OP, or pretending to misinterpret the words of a host which are plainly visible in the game thread -- these don't sound like baddie behavior to me, or anybody behavior. Instead I think this argument is fraught with miscommunication and genuine misinterpretation of the role and the hosts on both sides.

DrumBeats's assertion that either or both of them might be encouraging Pam to waste her role (in Quin's case by focusing on minor mechanical details, and in LoRab's case by discouraging DB's own strategy) strikes me as a more plausible reality. I don't have trouble imagining a baddie doing that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

linkitis: @Quin: That doesn't make sense. What you posted, and encouraged others to post, was not presented as fact/claim--it was presented as theory and hypothesis.

I don't agree with you, and I don't fault you for your interpretation. I think there is gray area here and it's not currently confirmed which of you is correct based upon Dom's testimony. He has answered on his own terms, but it's not conclusive. Quin's statements were presented without an "I think" qualifier, which can fairly be perceived as a claim and not a theory. However, they can only be legitimate claims if it's possible for anyone in this game to actually know those to be true, which is unconfirmed.

This is why I think you're both wrong and I don't really suspect either of you for it.

[LoRab]

I can appreciate that.

[Quin]

Here's some stuff from Scotty that should be addressed.

Spoiler: show

+10 points to Gryffindor!

Matt, you're the only one throwing around suspicions, and we're not even into Day 1 yet

Spoiler: show

sig, I'm disappointed. I thought you were going to accomplish your hell or high water goal of finally getting me lynched.

Hey! I was right one time and wrong once. So that means from a statistical view point there is a 50% chance that if I think you're mafia that you actually are.



linki: Scotty suspecting Matt for throwing around suspicion day is suspicious yes.
I didn't see Matt implying you doing anything game solvey is suspicious since we aren't in day 1 yet. Which is what Scotty was doing to Matt so your comparison makes no sense.

I didn't say I suspected Matt. You'd be hard pressed to get a real suspicion of someone on day 1 for antics, let alone Day 0.

There's still like 5 people that haven't checked in. Vote in dat poll!

It looks like he's inferring some degree of suspicion on Matt, but you can see he claims he didn't intend to in the next post. I get the vibe that Scotty really was suspicious of Matt here, but I don't think that's any more indicative of him being bad than it is him just trying to avoid being the Day 1 lynchee. He did develop a suspicion of Matt later on, however.

Spoiler: show

Sorry all I'm doing construction (of all things lol) all day today and zipping over on a date to see Independence Day right after. So I'm not gonna be around much at all leading up to EoD

I've skimmed the past few pages and only have a few things to say:
-Where is Matt? People have been answering for him, which he has expressly said he doesn't like other people doing for other people.
-Wilgy, don't you think that acting the same way as your bad self in another game could be perceived as alignment indicative? Like, just a little? This is like bubble gum bursting in your face, looking in the mirror and going, "I'm still beautiful", tossing back that lock of hair back and saying 'screw the haters!' In other words, this could just be Wilgy being Wilgy. Or it could be Wilgy misspeaking himself into a corner.
-Goldy has yet to check in, and honestly that is where my vote is going right now. Day 1's gonna Day 1, and I think suspicions will make more sense when we see a flip.

vote Goldy

I hope to check back in before EoD, but can't promise it

He's pointing the finger at people answering for Matt and he votes for Goldy based on inactivity. He voted an inactive in Turf Wars if I recall, so I don't see a problem in that, however his reasoning bugs me a little. If he's voting for the sake of having things make sense after Goldy flips, wouldn't he vote for someone that would result in making the most sense if they were lynched?

Spoiler: show

Specifying the night phase would, I think, infer more than just a dead townie. Dom gave the okay because it didn't break the info dumping rule.

That's as clear as mud. If it weren't in our best interests to lynch you because the town needs you, and it's not info dumping...how...can you be town aligned?

Spoiler: show

EBWOP: I guess you can't really answer that, so that's kind of unfair. BUT why even make a threat like that?



ALSO.

Can someone explain to me why leetic voted Wilgy early in the day without saying why and vanishing into mist? That pings me really hard. He has 5 posts, all saying nothing of worth.

I thought I'd just make a note here that he was adamant but realistic in his interrogation of the claim I made earlier and I think that reflects well on him.

[DrumBeats]

linkitis: @Quin: That doesn't make sense. What you posted, and encouraged others to post, was not presented as fact/claim--it was presented as theory and hypothesis.

I don't agree with you, and I don't fault you for your interpretation. I think there is gray area here and it's not currently confirmed which of you is correct based upon Dom's testimony. He has answered on his own terms, but it's not conclusive. Quin's statements were presented without an "I think" qualifier, which can fairly be perceived as a claim and not a theory. However, they can only be legitimate claims if it's possible for anyone in this game to actually know those to be true, which is unconfirmed.

This is why I think you're both wrong and I don't really suspect either of you for it.

What do you think though of LoRab's lack of time to form reads, while simultaneously having time to argue the mechanics this long, and clarify the mechanics with Dom privately.

[Quin]

I can appreciate that.

[Quin]

Someone give me another low-flier name to look into.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

linkitis: @Quin: That doesn't make sense. What you posted, and encouraged others to post, was not presented as fact/claim--it was presented as theory and hypothesis.

I don't agree with you, and I don't fault you for your interpretation. I think there is gray area here and it's not currently confirmed which of you is correct based upon Dom's testimony. He has answered on his own terms, but it's not conclusive. Quin's statements were presented without an "I think" qualifier, which can fairly be perceived as a claim and not a theory. However, they can only be legitimate claims if it's possible for anyone in this game to actually know those to be true, which is unconfirmed.

This is why I think you're both wrong and I don't really suspect either of you for it.

What do you think though of LoRab's lack of time to form reads, while simultaneously having time to argue the mechanics this long, and clarify the mechanics with Dom privately.

More reads is always better than less reads. I do think that getting into a back-and-forth with anyone can consume a lot of a player's time and focus, and this Quin/LoRab interaction might be a valid example of that. There is a limit though and I would like to see reads sooner than later.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Someone give me another low-flier name to look into.

I'd like to hear about bea and Serge.

[DrumBeats]

Someone give me another low-flier name to look into.

Epignosis

[Quin]

I'll do all three of them.

[Quin]

I should add that I didn't say much about Scotty (and I won't say much about anyones) Day 0 vote actions, because baddies would be just as interested in that mechanic than civs would and so it's not particularly alignment indicative.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It looks like he's inferring some degree of suspicion on Matt, but you can see he claims he didn't intend to in the next post. I get the vibe that Scotty really was suspicious of Matt here, but I don't think that's any more indicative of him being bad than it is him just trying to avoid being the Day 1 lynchee. He did develop a suspicion of Matt later on, however.

I think you raise a valid point, and I would advise against giving him an auto-pass in your own head just because of "avoiding being the Day 1 lynchee". That's not good enough.

Scotty made an observation about Matt and accompanied it with the ponder emoji. He had to have some reason for bringing it up, and if it wasn't suspicion then I don't know what it'd be. Otherwise it'd seem like Scotty saying something just for the sake of saying something, which isn't an ideal look.

He's pointing the finger at people answering for Matt and he votes for Goldy based on inactivity. He voted an inactive in Turf Wars if I recall, so I don't see a problem in that, however his reasoning bugs me a little. If he's voting for the sake of having things make sense after Goldy flips, wouldn't he vote for someone that would result in making the most sense if they were lynched?

Another valid point. If the premise is that a lynch flip will yield information to help progress reads into Day 2, then to lynch a lurker would seem the least productive option. There's nearly no information to be drawn from such a flip.

[DrumBeats]

Also, here's my current "people I would vote for today" in order from top to bottom of how much I would like to vote for them:

INH - A lot of discrediting going on here and I don't like it. Defense of Quin seems unnatural to me and persistence that Wilgy was mafia after mislynch was dumb.

LoRab - Purely mechanical focus with only one suspicion based upon it. The side she is pushing could easily scare Pam out of uncovering more information based on her own experience with the role. (I have also had experience with lie detector and I could check any statement said without an "i think" -esque clause and was told when my checks were invalid and allowed to change them)

leetic - That post on Eloh was very "pot calling the kettle black" and has yet to contribute anything.

Quin - Looking a bit better right now imo, but I still do not like most of his day one. There was a clear contradiction in what he said and did.

Scotty - The day one vote on Goldy is still contradictory to everything he said.

@ Scotty - When you get here, I want your analysis on the Wilgy votes por favor

@ Pam - Sorry for getting all up in your business, but I would suggest asking Dom privately how you checking an invalid statement would work, that way you know how cautious you need to be about that or not, rather than take either LoRab or I's word on what we believe your role to be.

[Quin]

Spoiler: show

UPDATED RANKINGS

bea +100 cuz she's nice
birdwithteeth11 -1 for showing up out of nowhere
Bullzeye -1 for being scum in my last game
Cobalt +5 because he has a cool name
DFaraday +3 because Jeremy Davies is an underrated actor
Drumbeats 0 drum is a mediocre instrument. I prefer the theremin
DrWilgy +7 for the Danganronpa references
Elohcin +2 because of cake
enrique -2 anyone with the letter q in their name is automatically untrustworthy
Epignosis +1 for disliking David Lynch's Dune
fingersplints 0 i'm really kind of neutral on Mindy Kaling. Wasn't a big fan of her show tbh
Goldy -1 for not being Golden
insertnamehere -10 why won't he reveal his real name? obv scum
leetic -5 hasn't posted an ISO yet, obv scum
LoRab -3 doesn't have a muppet avatar anymore
Matt -1 for reasons stated in a previous post
Quin -1 the letter q rule strikes again
rabbit8 -100 sneaky weaselly wabbit
Scotty -1000 Russell Hantz defender. Do I need to say more?
Serge +1 in apology for Attack on Titan
sig -1 for anime references
Sorsha -1 the three letters "sha" in connection with one another are very suspicious
Spacedaisy +100 cuz she's nice
SVS -5 tildes are the most scummy of symbols
timmer +5 reminds me of the band Timber Timbre
Zeus +100000000 he's the greek god of lightning and shit. I mean, come on!

Is this really necessary? Not only are you making fun of Matt, but you've done so twice now making big wall posts. When even if it is strange he is trying to game solve.

+10 points to Gryffindor!

Matt, you're the only one throwing around suspicions, and we're not even into Day 1 yet

I don't like this either, baddies have been caught or at least sniffed out on day 0. So why are you trying to silence Matt and cast suspicion on him.

So suspecting someone is trying to silence them? Where is your outrage for Matt trying to silence me, then (Not that I think he did such a thing, just making a comparison~ I don't think Matt or I are very likely to be silenced by the kind of remarks heard just yet)?

Matt do you think sig is suspect for defending you on Day Zero?

this right here is interesting...

bea chimes in on the Matt/Scotty/Sig/SVS interaction with this. There's no elaboration beyond 'interesting'. What exactly was interesting about what SVS just said? Though it should be said, that post IS interesting and I might have a lookover SVS's posts as well to really explain my thoughts.

Spoiler: show

If Cobalt doesn't reappear, lynch him.

INH, how long will you take until you begin to policy lynch no shows/wallflowers?

for me it's not really a thing of how long, it's more of a thing I'll do if there aren't any better options.

I feel that AoT mafia turned out the way it did because of this mindset. Do you agree or disagree?

I disagree, because my "logic and facts and stuff over playing with your gut" mindset lead me, the one civilian with a one-time use NK, to suspect and kill you, one of the baddies. You were the only baddie killed the entire game.

So, if anything, AoT just reinforced this mindset for me. Sorry that this wasn't the answer you were fishing for.

Fishing? Hmm... what would entice you to describe my thinking and questioning as such? I just wanted an answer, and gave my opinion on the matter.

Matt and Bea, if someone were to target you right now, who do you think would do so?

Wait? Wot? Why is someone hypotheically targeting me? I'm confused.

Although I didn't really understand what Wilgy wanted when he asked me this question, I did intend to answer it. bea just straight up avoided the question.

Spoiler: show

Hmm...

I think Quin and INH are on a team. I also think INH and Matt are on opposite teams. I also don't think bad Matt woud gimmick this early, unless he is strictly copying another game. He compared this point system to transistor, but I don't think he's copying what he did there.

Why is that question strange bullz? Feep free to answer the question yourself.

All of this sounds like somebody who needed something to say coming in and saying something. Why do you think these things? What posts brought you to these conclusions? Why are you defending Matt?

Why would have I needed something to say Epi?

INH put too much effort in his mockery of Matt's point system. Thus I think they are on opposite teams. The reason why I'm defending Matt is because of this. If INH is bad, then Matt is probably good.

Regarding Quin, I have no justification for why I think they are on the same team, thier patterns feel similar though.

Timmer and Epi, what do you think of the questions that I have asked so far?

Were you the one who asked me who I thought would target me on like day 0? It was either you or INH.

My answer is no one. No one's targeting me Day 0 into day 1. But as for N1 - no one's targeting me that night too. I can tell you who I do think will catch lots of targets from civs and mafia N1. But you really don't need me to answer that question.


I think that I'm an excellent mislynch on day 4 or a NK on night 4 if everyone's reading me right. N3-6 tends to be my mafia downfall.

It was a day (and a bunch of sort of fluff) later that she addressed Wilgy, but her answer encompassed so much more than the pretty simple question he asked her. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it, myself.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Post history links are necessary for my survival.

bea
birdwithteeth11
Bullzeye / JaggedJimmyJay
Cobalt / indiglo
DFaraday
DrumBeats
Elohcin
Enrique
Epignosis
fingersplints
Goldy / espers
insertnamehere
leetic
LoRab
Matt
Quin
Scotty
Serge
sig
Sorsha
Spacedaisy
S~V~S
timmer
Zeus

[Quin]

Post history links are necessary for my survival.

bea
birdwithteeth11
Bullzeye / JaggedJimmyJay
Cobalt / indiglo
DFaraday
DrumBeats
Elohcin
Enrique
Epignosis
fingersplints
Goldy / espers
insertnamehere
leetic
LoRab
Matt
Quin
Scotty
Serge
sig
Sorsha
Spacedaisy
S~V~S
timmer
Zeus

thank you so much. i thought i was going to have to go search for serge's posts.

[Quin]

Let me get this straight, we can't roleplay?

So the thing we voted on, Personnel won and now roles have been revealed? Why only townies? If we voted management would have that revealed the roles of the management? I seem to recall a post here wherein the management is a separate group.

Checking out!

Serge's only posts. I posted them just for the sake of having something to say. He didn't vote on Day 1, either. And that's all I have to say.

[espers]

So the thing we voted on, Personnel won and now roles have been revealed? Why only townies? If we voted management would have that revealed the roles of the management? I seem to recall a post here wherein the management is a separate group.

Checking out!

This is suspicious at surface level, none of these questions have a hope of producing substantive content if i'm right in my interpretation of the infodumping rules.

Serge, do you have any thoughts on the game's progression so far? Any suspicions of players?

linki: i had this written up before going to do some vacuuming, then when i came back it turned out people have mentioned him

[espers]

Sorry all I'm doing construction (of all things lol) all day today and zipping over on a date to see Independence Day right after. So I'm not gonna be around much at all leading up to EoD

I've skimmed the past few pages and only have a few things to say:
-Where is Matt? People have been answering for him, which he has expressly said he doesn't like other people doing for other people.
-Wilgy, don't you think that acting the same way as your bad self in another game could be perceived as alignment indicative? Like, just a little? This is like bubble gum bursting in your face, looking in the mirror and going, "I'm still beautiful", tossing back that lock of hair back and saying 'screw the haters!' In other words, this could just be Wilgy being Wilgy. Or it could be Wilgy misspeaking himself into a corner.
-Goldy has yet to check in, and honestly that is where my vote is going right now. Day 1's gonna Day 1, and I think suspicions will make more sense when we see a flip.

vote Goldy

I hope to check back in before EoD, but can't promise it

Goldy was the person I replaced. Others have mentioned it recently, I'd also like to see it clarified. How would my role being flipped make suspicions "make more sense"?

[Quin]

Spoiler: show

At this point I have to lynch Matt to know his alignment.

Spoiler: show

For all I know, neither Scotty or FS found my question suspicious, but they did jump to the aid of someone who's alignment they can't possibly know yet without letting SVS answer first. And then FS proceeded to advance her agenda with exaggerations about management and fibs about me misleading people.

Derp.

Lol @ judging then saying it's not for you to judge.

-1 on INH

How do you know that?

These are Epignosis's initial interactions with Matt. I don't see anything particularly pingy about it, but it's clear he's putting the pressure on Matt from the get-go.

Spoiler: show

Matt is my number one suspect. He named two suspects but clung to fingersplints. I say he and Scotty are teammates.

I think clung is a strong word for the post which I'm assuming Epi came to this conclusion from, which is:

Spoiler: show

Omg I'm so faded rigght noow my friends, but I'm going to reply anyway...

LISTEN.

haha.

So in a recent game by the name of Transistor, I did a similar maneuver at the beginning of the game, I called out niju/Bloops for being the PROCESS and was met with the same criticisms and defenses I've been seeing here.

"Oh snap, why just randomize susses on Day Zero/Day One HOW DARE YOU?"

Then I had to proceed to tell the towwn, honestly, that I was just effin' around and just wanted to get a reaction. Unfortunately, I had to lay this out before niju/BLOOPS even had a chance to respond and when she did, she aleready knew I was effin' aroun d so it was no thin gfor her.

when I lay out a suss, and TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE rush to the defense of said suss WHEN said suss is clearly visible in the thread and can respond for herself, THAT SHIT IS SUSSPICIIIIIIIIIOUS.

I'm not saying Scotty and FS are both bad, but I'm going to give myself a 50% chance that T LEAST one of the two are bad, and I'm guessing it's SPLINTER.

yup.

If it appeared as though Matt was trying to force fingersplints as the most suspicious of the two over multiple posts, I could understand Epi's judgment. But really it just feels forced.

Spoiler: show

I like how, for the first time in a REALLY long time, I feel like I have something concrete to go on with a Day 1 lynch, and I suddenly have several players looking at voting me. When we've had a ton of back-and-forth and gut reads that are based on zero in-thread evidence whatsoever.

You really don't like that. You're being sarcastic.

Do you think Quin is a civvie?

Not especially, but I think the reason he's getting votes is lame. Personally, I'm always more interested in mechanics (if they are hidden) early on than I am finding out who is bad. It appeals to my game designing sensibilities. And I've seen too many people screwed over by hidden mechanics (although I've won two or three games I never should have won simply because I got secretly recruited at the eleventh hour).

Quin could be bad, but him getting lynched Day 1 for those reasons sucks in my opinion.

Epi, do you think Qun is a civve?

Jesus, you didn't even give me two minutes.

What I'm gathering from this is that he doesn't see a reason not to lynch me, but he's choosing not to because of the reasons that I had votes. Epi, did you vote Wilgy based entirely on your suspicions, or did you want to save me from being lynched?

[Scotty]

lalalala busy day. catching up now. sorry for the wall post.

hi JJJ and espers! Your predecessors were more silent than the 30th president of the USA. Thanks for being vocal!

I don't even know. I was pinged by Matt because I agreed with the principle behind what INH said in that faking reads is counter-productive, but I don't scum read him after taking everything else into account right now. BWT doesn't look all that great given his vote for me, though. I feel as though my vote might go there tomorrow.

What about Matt's posts or the game in general makes you feel less inclined to go after Matt?

Primarily, he acknowledged my vote on Day 1 but didn't try to discredit it or go to lengths to paint me as bad for it. To a much lesser extent, I can understand that he just wanted to get things moving because at the time there wasn't much of anything going on. I don't want to fault him for that.

writing off Matt because he doesn't No U is a point, but I don't know why you'd drop it completely. Matt's gonna Matt, but at what point is he just acting the part?

Hey gang. I'm TiredJimmyJay, so please bear with me if I catch up at a leisurely pace.

Anyone who cares: what are the three most important things I should know about this game so far?

1. You subbed in.
2. indiglo sucks for her hatred of pistachio ice cream
3. If I had to vote right now it would be for leetic or Matt ( )

You never answered my post about why you would vote me over splints when Matt asked you. Can you pls?

@Matt Are you silenced? Where have you been? I want to pick [delicately] through your brain. You're still a high suspect for me for your continuation of grasping at straws from day 1, and want to know if your opinion has changed at all.

-I'm going to stay away from the Quin/LoRab discussion about the lie detector. But I'm still eating tea biscuits over @Quin's more pressing "I role hinted but didn't break any rules" thing. I know you say you talked to Dom about it, but no matter what you say, I can't get it out of my head that you were just throwing out a threat to save your own ass. That did seem to come around the time when Wilgy and you were tied.

-I find ,yself agreeing with @BWT more than not. Especially thius one:

Specifying the night phase would, I think, infer more than just a dead townie. Dom gave the okay because it didn't break the info dumping rule.

I'm...confused by the first part. Not sure how else to explain it.

As for the second, it didn't break the info dumping role...and your role would be one the town would miss...

I'm down to 3 possibilities in terms of your roles' ability/abilities. And 2 of them are not good for the civs.

We're also in agreement on leetic.

RIP rabbit. That...was a weird kill imo. Why would mafia kill rabbit? He didn't have much bearing in the game. (see what I did there?)

Here's some stuff from Scotty that should be addressed.

Spoiler: show

+10 points to Gryffindor!

Matt, you're the only one throwing around suspicions, and we're not even into Day 1 yet

Spoiler: show

sig, I'm disappointed. I thought you were going to accomplish your hell or high water goal of finally getting me lynched.

Hey! I was right one time and wrong once. So that means from a statistical view point there is a 50% chance that if I think you're mafia that you actually are.



linki: Scotty suspecting Matt for throwing around suspicion day is suspicious yes.
I didn't see Matt implying you doing anything game solvey is suspicious since we aren't in day 1 yet. Which is what Scotty was doing to Matt so your comparison makes no sense.

I didn't say I suspected Matt. You'd be hard pressed to get a real suspicion of someone on day 1 for antics, let alone Day 0.

There's still like 5 people that haven't checked in. Vote in dat poll!

It looks like he's inferring some degree of suspicion on Matt, but you can see he claims he didn't intend to in the next post. I get the vibe that Scotty really was suspicious of Matt here, but I don't think that's any more indicative of him being bad than it is him just trying to avoid being the Day 1 lynchee. He did develop a suspicion of Matt later on, however.

As I said previously, I'm not one to outright vote someone for being suspicious on day 1. Mostly because my reads are crap based on primarily tonal context. I'm amazed at you people that can identify mafia just from the get-go. I get pings all the time, but I'm too chickenshit to pull the trigger in case it's just a civ prodding. What looks bad to me- and you can call it a NO U I guess- is his disregard of the lynch leaders of Wilgy and Quin/INH to vote for me, a vote that even he said "is probably wrong lol". That's a more informed and capable suspicion, knowing that Wilgy was civ.

Spoiler: show

Sorry all I'm doing construction (of all things lol) all day today and zipping over on a date to see Independence Day right after. So I'm not gonna be around much at all leading up to EoD

I've skimmed the past few pages and only have a few things to say:
-Where is Matt? People have been answering for him, which he has expressly said he doesn't like other people doing for other people.
-Wilgy, don't you think that acting the same way as your bad self in another game could be perceived as alignment indicative? Like, just a little? This is like bubble gum bursting in your face, looking in the mirror and going, "I'm still beautiful", tossing back that lock of hair back and saying 'screw the haters!' In other words, this could just be Wilgy being Wilgy. Or it could be Wilgy misspeaking himself into a corner.
-Goldy has yet to check in, and honestly that is where my vote is going right now. Day 1's gonna Day 1, and I think suspicions will make more sense when we see a flip.

vote Goldy

I hope to check back in before EoD, but can't promise it

He's pointing the finger at people answering for Matt and he votes for Goldy based on inactivity. He voted an inactive in Turf Wars if I recall, so I don't see a problem in that, however his reasoning bugs me a little. If he's voting for the sake of having things make sense after Goldy flips, wouldn't he vote for someone that would result in making the most sense if they were lynched?

My reasoning is well noted on this site and I even explained it- again- later on. I'd rather risk mislynching a no-show than a talkative civ day 1. That's the gist. Take it or leave it.

Spoiler: show

Specifying the night phase would, I think, infer more than just a dead townie. Dom gave the okay because it didn't break the info dumping rule.

That's as clear as mud. If it weren't in our best interests to lynch you because the town needs you, and it's not info dumping...how...can you be town aligned?

Spoiler: show

EBWOP: I guess you can't really answer that, so that's kind of unfair. BUT why even make a threat like that?



ALSO.

Can someone explain to me why leetic voted Wilgy early in the day without saying why and vanishing into mist? That pings me really hard. He has 5 posts, all saying nothing of worth.

I thought I'd just make a note here that he was adamant but realistic in his interrogation of the claim I made earlier and I think that reflects well on him.

He's pointing the finger at people answering for Matt and he votes for Goldy based on inactivity. He voted an inactive in Turf Wars if I recall, so I don't see a problem in that, however his reasoning bugs me a little. If he's voting for the sake of having things make sense after Goldy flips, wouldn't he vote for someone that would result in making the most sense if they were lynched?

Another valid point. If the premise is that a lynch flip will yield information to help progress reads into Day 2, then to lynch a lurker would seem the least productive option. There's nearly no information to be drawn from such a flip.

False. Voting patterns are information. Let's say she is lynched. If she (or you, now) is civ, we have lost a no-show. Never assume a no-show is getting replaced with ease. It was hard enough to fill the game. Thankfully you filled in for her, but she may have just been sitting in limbo, not helping civs at all. If she is civ, we can look at the ease at which people vote her, the votes people didn't case for her that look better when she flips. If she is mafia, then a) bingo and b) voting patterns once again. Were there any efforts to save her?

I dunno man. There's lots of info for me to pick apart. Instead we lynched our tracker, who had stuff to say.

Scotty - The day one vote on Goldy is still contradictory to everything he said.

@ Scotty - When you get here, I want your analysis on the Wilgy votes por favor

Please point to what is contradictory and how I have not explained it to well enough to you.
I'm gonna do some analysis on the Wilgy votes this phase, but offhand leetic looks the most sketch out of anyone right now, mainly because of his driveby vote on Wilgy, and his nonchalance of getting back to the accusations thrown at him. Still waiting on a Matt.

[Scotty]

Sorry all I'm doing construction (of all things lol) all day today and zipping over on a date to see Independence Day right after. So I'm not gonna be around much at all leading up to EoD

I've skimmed the past few pages and only have a few things to say:
-Where is Matt? People have been answering for him, which he has expressly said he doesn't like other people doing for other people.
-Wilgy, don't you think that acting the same way as your bad self in another game could be perceived as alignment indicative? Like, just a little? This is like bubble gum bursting in your face, looking in the mirror and going, "I'm still beautiful", tossing back that lock of hair back and saying 'screw the haters!' In other words, this could just be Wilgy being Wilgy. Or it could be Wilgy misspeaking himself into a corner.
-Goldy has yet to check in, and honestly that is where my vote is going right now. Day 1's gonna Day 1, and I think suspicions will make more sense when we see a flip.

vote Goldy

I hope to check back in before EoD, but can't promise it

Goldy was the person I replaced. Others have mentioned it recently, I'd also like to see it clarified. How would my role being flipped make suspicions "make more sense"?

oops im sorry, I thought JJJ replaced Goldy!

in RE: making more sense, see my post above.

[S~V~S]

Voting SVS. I do not recommend that she be lynched, unless of course further information comes to light that would support it. Either way, don't take my vote to mean I even suspect SVS, as I do not.

You don't?

That's good since would you believe I don't suspect you anymore, either? Although I can't blame others who come from the same background as I for doing so, can I?

Don't you all think bear puns would have been funnier? JJJ did you know you saying you suspect me makes baby bears cry?

Did you also know killing Rabbit makes the baby bears cry even harder? Can you say "weak"?

How long will it take you all to get sick of this?

Did I see someone call Epi a low flier? That seems about right, but so abnormal for him, isn't it?

[Elohcin]

@ Leetic and Eloh - What are your current reads?

I do hope you aren't lumping me with this Leetic person by asking us both about our reads at the same time. At the moment I am most concerned with Quin for his/her "I'm a civ and you'll be sorry" post before EoD 1. As I've said before and as most people are probably tired of hearing...big games are difficult for me. I am trying to keep up, take notes, and participate as much as possible. I will have more things to say as time goes on, promise.

Not lumping you together, other than the fact that you were two recent posters who hadn't offered much in terms of reads. Other than Quin, who is your second largest scumread right now?

Leetic, actually. Epi pointed out that he voted without explanation. That on top of accusing me of talking nothing but fluff is concerning to me. Especially since he used the word "fluff". This makes em think he is not new to mafia even if new to this site. So yeah, Leetic.

I still have two pages to catch up on, but I'm posting this anyway cause I have to get breakfast for the kiddos and bake cookies and go to a momma and kid shin-dig, so I don't knwo when I will be able to read up.

[Serge]

Hello everyone, sorry for missing the voting. I'll catch up this day phase.

[Epignosis]

I am not answering any more questions about the checkability of statements. I assess them with Pam on a case by case basis. We are very capable.

Dom and Pam are very capable.

Check that.

Someone give me another low-flier name to look into.

Epignosis

Getting civilians lynched Day 1 is how I fly low.

Epi, did you vote Wilgy based entirely on your suspicions, or did you want to save me from being lynched?

I voted to lynch Wilgy, not to save you, although I stand by what I said about the main reason people were voting you.

hi JJJ and espers! Your predecessors were more silent than the 30th president of the USA. Thanks for being vocal!

My favorite one, since someone asked for more politics.

You never answered my post about why you would vote me over splints when Matt asked you. Can you pls?

Matt is my number one suspect. He named two suspects but clung to fingersplints. I say he and Scotty are teammates.

[fingersplints]

Epi, I think you have a point about Matt. I didn't like Matt's day 0 interactions, but I have a hard time articulating my thoughts without it seeming a bit "no u"ish.

I'm sad rabbit died without me getting a chance to vote him. I'd consider voting for Matt, but for the time being I'm going to vote leetic for now. I haven't played any Mafia this year, and I'm scared of getting modkilled for missing votes.

[fingersplints]

If Matt is bad I think this also looks bad for Scotty:

@Matt Are you silenced? Where have you been?

It's really early in the day to be calling someone out for being silenced? It could be he knows he is silenced and trying to draw attention to it.

[Spacedaisy]

Is SVS cursed or something? I'm a little weirded out by her baby bear post, lol.

I'm still reading along despite having minimal time to engage fully in the game the last few days (which is not likely to get better soon, Alex and I are going out of town on Thursday and coming back Sunday, just FYI. So I should still be able to mafia, but I doubt my post count will go up a lot. And I work a bunch before then to finish the quarter signage change over at work.) I find the whole lengthy discussion about making good LD statements to be a waste of time frankly. All conversation like this does is allow baddies to weigh in on a topic that looks helpful but really is just an illusion. It lets them avoid talking about who they suspect. For this reason I suspect the people who are pushing to try to help Pam. Pam can handle her own job I'm sure.

I'm voting JJJ, despite agreeing with him on most things he has said.

I suspect INH and drumbeats the most at the moment (if I recall correctly who was involved in the discussion).