RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[Sloonei]

Another tinfoil, for Sloonei:
- The general case to be made against Sloonei is quite similar to the ones being presented against me and even Quin. He was clearly more anti-Scotty in his language than I was, but his actions were very much the same. He started the INH counterwagon, he started smearing people before Scotty flipped town, projecting the town flip. The latter concerns me more than the former.

insertnamehere's vote and the way he worded it really made me feel uneasy about him. When you pair that with his apparent hypocrisy (following me but criticizing you), I thought I had caught a bad guy trying to pull two opportunistic moves in one. This was not the case.

- He's just now started to put together concerns he has about me, which means he has free reign over the current tally to vote for either Quin or I. He's done this while also criticizing the people who are inclined to vote for neither of us, which is in truth a similar circumstance.[/quote]
I do not understand this point. I'd mentioned my concerns (just once, to be fair) earlier. I put some thoughts together last night in my limited available time. There were also two people casting outlier votes in the tally when all of the focus was clearly centering on you and Quin. You criticized Quin for voting me on Day 1. It's the same thing. I genuinely do not know what point you are trying to make here.

[Sloonei]

pretend i know how to format things.

Another tinfoil, for Sloonei:
- The general case to be made against Sloonei is quite similar to the ones being presented against me and even Quin. He was clearly more anti-Scotty in his language than I was, but his actions were very much the same. He started the INH counterwagon, he started smearing people before Scotty flipped town, projecting the town flip. The latter concerns me more than the former.

insertnamehere's vote and the way he worded it really made me feel uneasy about him. When you pair that with his apparent hypocrisy (following me but criticizing you), I thought I had caught a bad guy trying to pull two opportunistic moves in one. This was not the case.

- He's just now started to put together concerns he has about me, which means he has free reign over the current tally to vote for either Quin or I. He's done this while also criticizing the people who are inclined to vote for neither of us, which is in truth a similar circumstance.

I do not understand this point. I'd mentioned my concerns (just once, to be fair) earlier. I put some thoughts together last night in my limited available time. There were also two people casting outlier votes in the tally when all of the focus was clearly centering on you and Quin. You criticized Quin for voting me on Day 1. It's the same thing. I genuinely do not know what point you are trying to make here.

[Ricochet]

Another emotion-driven read:

Quin has re-inserted himself into the game on a moment's notice with authority and aplomb. Nice look.

[Sloonei]

I'd like someone who suspects me to theorize about why I killed either Boomslang or DrWilgy.

The same reason anyone would have killed them: They're easy targets who wouldn't provide the town with any clues about the killer's intention, except that they wanted to avoid leaving clues.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do not understand this point. I'd mentioned my concerns (just once, to be fair) earlier. I put some thoughts together last night in my limited available time. There were also two people casting outlier votes in the tally when all of the focus was clearly centering on you and Quin. You criticized Quin for voting me on Day 1. It's the same thing. I genuinely do not know what point you are trying to make here.

My point wasn't so specific. The problem with the people placing outlier votes (which I agree is not ideal) is that they have no investment in the two wagons which are likely to actually yield the lynch. By casting suspicion upon on me when you did, you allowed yourself a posture where you could have dual investment in those two wagons. From a strategic perspective, non-investment and dual-investment are rather similar. They are opposite routes to a similar end. The people who are most responsible for their votes are the ones who take a distinct side. You've given yourself an opening to follow Quin's town flip with suspicion of me that you hadn't qualified before the end of day sequence when the anti-JJJ climate was at its worst.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd like someone who suspects me to theorize about why I killed either Boomslang or DrWilgy.

The same reason anyone would have killed them: They're easy targets who wouldn't provide the town with any clues about the killer's intention, except that they wanted to avoid leaving clues.

That's a shit reason to kill someone IMO. People can WIFOM all day if they want, but that's not how I operate. I don't kill someone in town's PoE; I don't throw away easy mislynches. Both of them would have been.

[Quin]

These aren't in any particular order.

Sloonei: Demands that Rico and Wilgy move their votes. Again, it's this feeling that he's discrediting their votes just because it isn't an established wagon.

JaggedJimmyJay: Has a contingency that if Quin 1.0 flips civ, Beck must be Scotty's teammate. He was wrong the first time, but he's confident he'll be right the second. With that being said, his reaction post lynch feels genuine. I'd maybe expect a baddie to come up with some excuse involving these fake lynch flips to buy some time for themself.

metalmarsh89:

Spoiler: show

I'm leaving my vote on Quin, assuming he doesn't show up. He hasn't posted yet as the day winds down, and I think a civilian would have been more likely to make a last-ditch effort to save himself or informed us he wouldn't be around.

He leaves his vote on me because I haven't shown up in a last-ditch effort to save myself, something that he thinks appears town. The latter I have no opinion on, I still don't know marmot very well. But there is no way that he doesn't know by now that I'm in practically the complete opposite timezone as everyone else, and that I'm not even awake to defend myself when mostly everyone else is active. This looks like a half-baked reason to justify a vote on me.

Ricochet: He chooses to lynch Quin 1.0 over 3J. I don't like how he justifies it. He says my ISO of him makes him look bad and that 3J is being super-defensive, but votes me just because I'm on the PoE. He's relying on a collective strategy that could be biased with baddie input rather than his own suspicions. He also feels compelled to be on one of the two wagons, because he wasn't on it before. I don't like him as much as I did.

Golden: He's not entirely focused on why Quin 1.0 is bad, he's also focused on why 3J is good (and basically always has been). I like his approach. He comes out looking the best out of this lynch imo. This post aggravates me though, just based on it being a conflicting opinion, so reading it is hard for me (this is your queue to analyse it yourself, folks):

what Quin flipped was not relevant to my decision to vote him. Finding out what he would flip was more important

DrWilgy: Wilgy doesn't give a shit. Hell, isn't this guy dead? Who did he replace? He doesn't feel pressured to move onto a bandwagon. He does come up with an interesting teammate combination of Golden and INH. What's this about, Doctor?

Epignosis: His 3J vote is clean. He's been going at it with 3J since Day 0 so the vote doesn't surprise me. I feel confident saying they aren't teammates.

insertnamehere: I do not like this post:

Spoiler: show

PROPOSED STRATEGY: Lynch JaggedJimmyJay.

If he's scum, celebrate.

If he's town, lynch Quin.

Initially, I can only imagine Quin 1.0 thought it was an attempt to try and get reads, but he made no indication after he responded to it to suggest that was the case. It just does not appeal to me at all. When questioned about his contingency if Quin 1.0 flipped bad, he said he'd look at inactives. I don't understand the correlation.

Absent: leetic, reywaS

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Would it annoy you even more if I removed him from the PoE?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay: Has a contingency that if Quin 1.0 flips civ, Beck must be Scotty's teammate. He was wrong the first time, but he's confident he'll be right the second. With that being said, his reaction post lynch feels genuine. I'd maybe expect a baddie to come up with some excuse involving these fake lynch flips to buy some time for themself.

Violent eyeball twitch. Beck was in the PoE, and Quin 1.0 being town increases the likelihood of Beck being bad. It isn't a "must". You're Beck and frankly I don't want to vote for you right now. I'm probably leaning toward an inactive -- they're also in the PoE.

[Sloonei]

I do not understand this point. I'd mentioned my concerns (just once, to be fair) earlier. I put some thoughts together last night in my limited available time. There were also two people casting outlier votes in the tally when all of the focus was clearly centering on you and Quin. You criticized Quin for voting me on Day 1. It's the same thing. I genuinely do not know what point you are trying to make here.

My point wasn't so specific. The problem with the people placing outlier votes (which I agree is not ideal) is that they have no investment in the two wagons which are likely to actually yield the lynch. By casting suspicion upon on me when you did, you allowed yourself a posture where you could have dual investment in those two wagons. From a strategic perspective, non-investment and dual-investment are rather similar. They are opposite routes to a similar end. The people who are most responsible for their votes are the ones who take a distinct side. You've given yourself an opening to follow Quin's town flip with suspicion of me that you hadn't qualified before the end of day sequence when the anti-JJJ climate was at its worst.

The timing of that was entirely to do with my work schedule. I would have been involved, and most likely on board, with the discussion had I been around when it first popped up. And like I said, I'd expressed my doubts about you already. This was not an idle post.

I usually have a town read on you by this point, but I do not right now. It is definitely possible that I am off and that I should be town-reading you as always. But it is a concern and I can't shake it.

[Quin]

JaggedJimmyJay: Has a contingency that if Quin 1.0 flips civ, Beck must be Scotty's teammate. He was wrong the first time, but he's confident he'll be right the second. With that being said, his reaction post lynch feels genuine. I'd maybe expect a baddie to come up with some excuse involving these fake lynch flips to buy some time for themself.

Violent eyeball twitch. Beck was in the PoE, and Quin 1.0 being town increases the likelihood of Beck being bad. It isn't a "must". You're Beck and frankly I don't want to vote for you right now. I'm probably leaning toward an inactive -- they're also in the PoE.

How does Quin 1.0 being town incriminate Beck?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I usually have a town read on you by this point, but I do not right now. It is definitely possible that I am off and that I should be town-reading you as always. But it is a concern and I can't shake it.

As I said in the same tinfoil post: I don't think you're bad. It's a back-of-mind concern that I wanted to express in case I ended up lynched. I don't think you or Golden would be good lynches on Day 3. I understand why you suspect me. My ISO has some ugly moments and that's just how it goes.

[Sloonei]

So what you're saying is Jay should be in my PoE. OK. Interesting. I'll have to look at that, I've felt good about Jay all game.

Question, sloonei - should MM be in the PoE?

I'm not sure what means to be either in or out of the PoE, which I'll hereafter be referring to as the Edgar Allan.

[Marmot]

metalmarsh89:

Spoiler: show

I'm leaving my vote on Quin, assuming he doesn't show up. He hasn't posted yet as the day winds down, and I think a civilian would have been more likely to make a last-ditch effort to save himself or informed us he wouldn't be around.

He leaves his vote on me because I haven't shown up in a last-ditch effort to save myself, something that he thinks appears town. The latter I have no opinion on, I still don't know marmot very well. But there is no way that he doesn't know by now that I'm in practically the complete opposite timezone as everyone else, and that I'm not even awake to defend myself when mostly everyone else is active. This looks like a half-baked reason to justify a vote on me.

Quin 1.0 did not post in this thread during the final 14 hours or so of the day phase, but did post in another thread in the middle of that gap. I honestly forgot where you're from, but you were still online.

[Ricochet]

Would it annoy you even more if I removed him from the PoE?

[Sloonei]

I usually have a town read on you by this point, but I do not right now. It is definitely possible that I am off and that I should be town-reading you as always. But it is a concern and I can't shake it.

As I said in the same tinfoil post: I don't think you're bad. It's a back-of-mind concern that I wanted to express in case I ended up lynched. I don't think you or Golden would be good lynches on Day 3. I understand why you suspect me. My ISO has some ugly moments and that's just how it goes.

You are currently my top suspect, but that can be attributed somewhat to my lack of focus right now. I've not looked very closely at a lot of other people. I will try to get a better read on you as well as others later, when I can.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay: Has a contingency that if Quin 1.0 flips civ, Beck must be Scotty's teammate. He was wrong the first time, but he's confident he'll be right the second. With that being said, his reaction post lynch feels genuine. I'd maybe expect a baddie to come up with some excuse involving these fake lynch flips to buy some time for themself.

Violent eyeball twitch. Beck was in the PoE, and Quin 1.0 being town increases the likelihood of Beck being bad. It isn't a "must". You're Beck and frankly I don't want to vote for you right now. I'm probably leaning toward an inactive -- they're also in the PoE.

How does Quin 1.0 being town incriminate Beck?

PoE = Process of elimination. My suspect pool is/was primarily limited to: INH, Quin 1.0, S~V~S/Wilgy, MP/reywaS, Beck/Quin 2.0.

By default, removing Quin 1.0 from the list increases the probability for the other four. I also had a specific observation about Beck from Scotty's posts that I thought was of some importance -- rather similar to the way your previous body looked bad in Scotty's posts.

Thing

I like you right now though. I'd rather lynch Wilgy, reywaS, or INH.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I readily acknowledge that I am capable of being wrong about stuff. Is there a person I am not including in my process of elimination pool that you think I should be more wary of?

[Quin]

metalmarsh89:

Spoiler: show

I'm leaving my vote on Quin, assuming he doesn't show up. He hasn't posted yet as the day winds down, and I think a civilian would have been more likely to make a last-ditch effort to save himself or informed us he wouldn't be around.

He leaves his vote on me because I haven't shown up in a last-ditch effort to save myself, something that he thinks appears town. The latter I have no opinion on, I still don't know marmot very well. But there is no way that he doesn't know by now that I'm in practically the complete opposite timezone as everyone else, and that I'm not even awake to defend myself when mostly everyone else is active. This looks like a half-baked reason to justify a vote on me.

Quin 1.0 did not post in this thread during the final 14 hours or so of the day phase, but did post in another thread in the middle of that gap. I honestly forgot where you're from, but you were still online.

Quin 1.0 let me know that he went to bed right after posting that, and this thread had no new information for him at that time. There is a limit to the amount of effort one can put in without having new information.

[Ricochet]

I readily acknowledge that I am capable of being wrong about stuff. Is there a person I am not including in my process of elimination pool that you think I should be more wary of?

[Marmot]

metalmarsh89:

Spoiler: show

I'm leaving my vote on Quin, assuming he doesn't show up. He hasn't posted yet as the day winds down, and I think a civilian would have been more likely to make a last-ditch effort to save himself or informed us he wouldn't be around.

He leaves his vote on me because I haven't shown up in a last-ditch effort to save myself, something that he thinks appears town. The latter I have no opinion on, I still don't know marmot very well. But there is no way that he doesn't know by now that I'm in practically the complete opposite timezone as everyone else, and that I'm not even awake to defend myself when mostly everyone else is active. This looks like a half-baked reason to justify a vote on me.

Quin 1.0 did not post in this thread during the final 14 hours or so of the day phase, but did post in another thread in the middle of that gap. I honestly forgot where you're from, but you were still online.

Quin 1.0 let me know that he went to bed right after posting that, and this thread had no new information for him at that time. There is a limit to the amount of effort one can put in without having new information.

This reeks of illegal BTSC.

[Golden]

I'm aggrevating, man! You don't have to like it, but it's intentional. Ready to take another swig? I declared pretty openly that I didn't care about lynching the civs I lynched in the champs games either, and I still stand by it, because lynching the PoE is the way to the town winning games like this. You were in there, scotty put you in there. I don't like that you, Quin the person, had to be lynched when you are town. In games where it's 'survive to win', I wouldn't be as cavalier, but this isn't. This game is 'be on the winning side to win'. That means, forget about your own death when you are town, accept that sometimes you need to go. That's where my mindset is at for games like hesit games.

I don't much like it myself, frankly. It's why I actually PREFER survive to win.

Quin, you are handling my aggrevation just fine. You did the whole time. I'm pretty sure Quin 2.0 is town.

INH is handling it.. less fine.

Rico is handling it terribly. He's basically been throwing a tantrum for days and done literally nothing but pout about my approach to the game. If this is what bad rico looks like, I won't be impressed.

[insertnamehere]

INH, I'm curious:

What is the difference between Golden and I that makes him a civ read and me obviously bad?

2 Things:

1. His Day 1 vote for Scotty. Records show him as the first one to vote his way, which then, of course, lead to his demise. I could see a teammate possibly piling onto the vote when there's already an established base, but I just don't see a baddie being the first one to go that way. Then again, I think we should be exclusively looking at you, Sloonei, Rico, and Beck this lynch, so what the hell do I know?

2. His overall demeanor. I realize that I've found Golden's super duper zealousness strange in the thread, but it usually seemed located in the realm of facts and logic, instead of read/reaction BOLD PLAY.

The result of the Quin vote, and his subsequent denial-infused breakdown are calling this into question for me.

[Golden]

Inh, the whole game you've said my behaviour calls stuff into question, yet you still can't possibly bring yourself to scum read me.

You've said stuff like 'I'm dragging Quin through the mud' (certainly iverreactionary at the time you said it) which is language that you don't point at civilians.

The thing jay was looking for in Quin yesterday, the town read that you feel forced to make... I didn't really see that in Quin so much as I see it in you. You've been on my like a rash, yet you have to acknowledge I'm playing from the realms of logic.

Here is logic for you. If you know the last scum is one of three people, and you have three lynches up your sleeve, it matters not what order you lynch them in. If Quin wasn't lynched yesterday, he was going to be lynched today, or tomorrow. He was going to flip the same role no matter when he flipped. Lynching Quin was not a mistake, it was a necessity. It would have been better if he was bad, but already he is making becks spot look a whole lot better.

If people can't understand that in heist games like this I'm not going to mourn the death of people whose status is ambiguous just because when they flip they come back town, we're going to be in for a long hard road. Winning heists is about lynching everyone in the poe no matter what they turn out to be. You can be annoyed at my lack of compassion if you wish, but you won't make me see the light and be compassionate. If the town wins, Quin 1.0 wins too... That's all the sorry he needs.

[Epignosis]

I do not understand this point. I'd mentioned my concerns (just once, to be fair) earlier. I put some thoughts together last night in my limited available time. There were also two people casting outlier votes in the tally when all of the focus was clearly centering on you and Quin. You criticized Quin for voting me on Day 1. It's the same thing. I genuinely do not know what point you are trying to make here.

My point wasn't so specific. The problem with the people placing outlier votes (which I agree is not ideal) is that they have no investment in the two wagons which are likely to actually yield the lynch. By casting suspicion upon on me when you did, you allowed yourself a posture where you could have dual investment in those two wagons. From a strategic perspective, non-investment and dual-investment are rather similar. They are opposite routes to a similar end. The people who are most responsible for their votes are the ones who take a distinct side. You've given yourself an opening to follow Quin's town flip with suspicion of me that you hadn't qualified before the end of day sequence when the anti-JJJ climate was at its worst.

Invest in one of two people or you are suspicious.

The main thing I try to set up when I'm bad is the false dilemma. Make people think they have only two options or their vote is a waste. Forget pushing what you believe in.

It's exactly like US elections, really.

I'd like someone who suspects me to theorize about why I killed either Boomslang or DrWilgy.

The same reason anyone would have killed them: They're easy targets who wouldn't provide the town with any clues about the killer's intention, except that they wanted to avoid leaving clues.

That's a shit reason to kill someone IMO. People can WIFOM all day if they want, but that's not how I operate. I don't kill someone in town's PoE; I don't throw away easy mislynches. Both of them would have been.

How do you operate? Do tell.

So what you're saying is Jay should be in my PoE. OK. Interesting. I'll have to look at that, I've felt good about Jay all game.

Question, sloonei - should MM be in the PoE?

I'm not sure what means to be either in or out of the PoE, which I'll hereafter be referring to as the Edgar Allan.

I approve of this, and I'm sure others will be raven about it for years to come.

[insertnamehere]

It's Night 2, we've lynched one mafia and (maybe) one town. Inh, why are you so distraught?

Because I feel like 3J is desperately trying to steer the thread, and Golden is helping him. Intentionally or not, it's pretty damn bad for the civs.

I think every lynch is worth studying because simply assuming the baddies just lifted their hands up and decided not to interfere with things this time around is stupid and against all rational thought, to use Golden's favorite phrase.

This cheap-ass "WHOOPS I GUESSED WE LYNCHED A CIV TEE HEE THAT'S JUST GONNA HAPPEN, NOW FOLLOW US ONTO THE NEXT BANDWAGON, WHERE WE TRY TO LYNCH THE PEOPLE WHO THINK OUR LYNCHES ARE UNRELIABLE" routine is just fuckin' bonkers.



"You say it's not a big deal, but you just voted to lynch a civ-"

"Says who?"

"Polls. Both of them. All of them?"

"Says who?"

"Polls. I just told you, I answered your question."

"Okay...which polls?"

"All of them."

"Okay."

[insertnamehere]

@Quin voters who aren't 3J: In the event that Quin is civ, would you be open to a 3J lynch Day 3?

Probably not. As I've noted, quite independently of my Quin read, I think there is ample evidence that points to Jay being town. I think the case against Jay is very poor.

Based on your flimsy-ass assumption that you know exactly how Scotty's role worked, and you know exactly how the mafia would work?

Sure, fine.

Shame on me for being resistant to your rational thought, by which you mean your own opinions.

[Epignosis]

God help me, but for once in my life, I'm with INH.

[insertnamehere]

No, not whoops.

You really don't get the PoE thing. You really don't get playing the odds.

Quin was the right lynch 100% of the time. If he wasn't lynched today, he would have been tomorrow.

No oops... what Quin flipped was not relevant to my decision to vote him. Finding out what he would flip was more important.

Now that I see his flip.. I doubt I'll be voting Jay tomorrow. I do, however, think it much more likely that YOU are bad.

You really think the best way to play mafia is to just stumble blindly from sinking ship to sinking ship, all the while being aggressively self-righteous and shit talking anyone who says that you may be somewhat mistaken?

I'm sorry, but this is just delusional.


Now, just to play along, how does Quin flipping civ mean that both 3J is more civ, and I'm more scummy?

Because I didn't listen to your RATIONAL THINKING case on Quin and thought that 3J was worth lynching as well?

I'm sorry that because I've never really played with you before, I don't know all of your proven effective baddie techniques, and seen the hurricane of self-righteousness in action. To be blunt, the reason why I've been so hesitant to call you civ is because there's been this sort of aura of skill and talent built up around you, and I've been hesitant to label anything you do as necessarily scummy before I get the mettle of you as a player.

But if this is really what you've got: maddened guesswork and assumptions based on your blessed POE, I'm not sure how you expect me to listen to you in this game.

And no amount of histonics, aggressiveness, and "THIS IS SIMPLE LOGIC Y R U SO DUMMMM" is gonna change that.

[insertnamehere]

And besides that, I'm not willing to assume quin isn't bad yet.

[insertnamehere]

Golden is bad with inh, otherwise rico is bad.

lol that'd be one awkward chatroom

[insertnamehere]

Explain why this strategy isn't viable. Tell me the fatal flaw. Try.

what happens when you townclear someone for a dumb reason?

what happens if you townclear a scummeister?

[insertnamehere]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

Spoiler: marmot looks bad. How do you feel about him?

I could see marmot being bad. Especially if INH is bad, because it makes sense marmot would look to push scotty over the edge if he is a seemer, rather than lose inh, when the pair of them were fighting on day 1.

I really find inh shifty. Yesterday he called my case on you good, but basically absolved himself from it just based on me being arrogant. I don't like when people use ad hominem in place of detective work. I'm going to take whatever tone I like if I think it might be effective, and actually even while I left my vote on Quin I thought the best point in his favour was his reasoning for giving me a town read.

He also literally ignored posts endeavouring to get him to put in rational thought while accusing others of trying to stop rational thought.

idk how to respond to the marmot thing, there's just too many assumptions there.

i said that the case against Quin made sense, but that I found 3J's case more interesting. your tone had zip to do with it.

And honestly, shut up about the whole "rational thought" thing. Whenever you say it, you obviously mean "agreeing with my opinions about the game", so just don't even bother.

[Golden]

Explain why this strategy isn't viable. Tell me the fatal flaw. Try.

what happens when you townclear someone for a dumb reason?

what happens if you townclear a scummeister?

Everyone should be testing each others reasoning for townclearing, and giving opinions. The goal here is to listen to each other about who ISN'T bad, instead of spending your time having myopic arguments about who is bad. The PoE should be somewhat of a consensus.

Deepwolves are phase two. Smart teams will manage to get one through, but only one. Rare you'd get more than one through.

The idea is new here, but it is clearly the consensus wisdom "out there" and the reason is because it works very well.

[insertnamehere]

I'd be quite open to an INH lynch.

gee i wonder why

[Golden]

And honestly, shut up about the whole "rational thought" thing. Whenever you say it, you obviously mean "agreeing with my opinions about the game", so just don't even bother.

Nah, I don't.

I mean things like answering the questions that matter and might challenge your opinions instead of the ones that don't. I mean fitting everything into your existing theory instead of taking any critical analysis to it.

[Golden]

I'm not sure how you expect me to listen to you in this game.

I don't. I'm not playing to make you listen to me. Or playing to make rico listen to me. Or playing to make ANYONE listen to me.

I didn't lynch quin, inh. Five people lynched quin. You didn't lynch quin, but not because you said the case was bad... you didn't. You wanted to lynch quin tomorrow. You would like it to be all about me, but it actually isn't.

[insertnamehere]

I'm aggrevating, man! You don't have to like it, but it's intentional.

When mafia turns into a game of self-righteous people intentionally being rude to each other in order to provoke reactions, occasionally pausing to lynch civilians because they didn't "townread" them, and then being rude to each other some more, that's when I lose interest in playing.

Ready to take another swig? I declared pretty openly that I didn't care about lynching the civs I lynched in the champs games either, and I still stand by it, because lynching the PoE is the way to the town winning games like this. You were in there, scotty put you in there. I don't like that you, Quin the person, had to be lynched when you are town. In games where it's 'survive to win', I wouldn't be as cavalier, but this isn't. This game is 'be on the winning side to win'. That means, forget about your own death when you are town, accept that sometimes you need to go. That's where my mindset is at for games like hesit games.

So lemme get this straight. You've invented arbitrary reasons why people HAVE to be town. You've also invented arbitrary reasons why they HAVE to be scum. You go through with this method, and start lynching. Unfortunately, you bump off a civilian. Instead of thinking, "Oh gee, maybe my reasoning was incorrect." you double down and try to lynch more people for the same exact reasons.

I guess I'm not the type of person who can gleefully murder one innocent person to save five others, and then pat myself on the back for doing so.

I also think this entire style of gameplay is downright dangerous to civilians. You've essentially built yourself a little echo chamber where you can have a little list of people, and proceed to try and bump every single one of them off, completely indifferent to anything which may prove you wrong, because you have more faith in the system than anything else.

I don't much like it myself, frankly. It's why I actually PREFER survive to win.

Remind me never to sign up for a game where dead players can win with their team again, if this is what it's always going to be like.

[insertnamehere]

Inh, the whole game you've said my behaviour calls stuff into question, yet you still can't possibly bring yourself to scum read me.

That's because I don't know you Golden, and the reasons why I would suspect you are problems with the way you play the game.

Of course, if you always play the game this way, then I shouldn't suspect you. But I have absolutely no context with which to place your gameplay, so I'm apprehensive to label you as scum because of it.

I think you're wrong-headed, but I'm not sure if you're a wrong-headed civilian or a wrong-headed baddie.

[insertnamehere]

Everyone should be testing each others reasoning for townclearing, and giving opinions. The goal here is to listen to each other about who ISN'T bad, instead of spending your time having myopic arguments about who is bad. The PoE should be somewhat of a consensus.

Deepwolves are phase two. Smart teams will manage to get one through, but only one. Rare you'd get more than one through.

The idea is new here, but it is clearly the consensus wisdom "out there" and the reason is because it works very well.

This is essentially leeching mafia of what characterizes it as mafia, and making it into some sort of PoE WIFOM Factory.

I disagree that this is good strategy, and I disagree that this is what civilians should listen to and do. I think your goals are misguided and wrong.

And no amount of obliquely referencing "out there" and saying that it works "very well" is going to change that.

[insertnamehere]

@Golden: Do you think that I'm bad? If so, please tell me why without referencing ol' Edgar Allen.

[Golden]

So lemme get this straight. You've invented arbitrary reasons why people HAVE to be town. You've also invented arbitrary reasons why they HAVE to be scum. You go through with this method, and start lynching. Unfortunately, you bump off a civilian. Instead of thinking, "Oh gee, maybe my reasoning was incorrect." you double down and try to lynch more people for the same exact reasons.

I guess I'm not the type of person who can gleefully murder one innocent person to save five others, and then pat myself on the back for doing so.

I also think this entire style of gameplay is downright dangerous to civilians. You've essentially built yourself a little echo chamber where you can have a little list of people, and proceed to try and bump every single one of them off, completely indifferent to anything which may prove you wrong, because you have more faith in the system than anything else.

1) No, you don't have it straight, because my reasons are not arbitrary. You, yourself, have called everything I've done 'logical and rational' except for the tone I'm taking around civilians dying. That, to me, suggests you agree that my reads are not arbitrary, but are in fact logical and rational. So, you gotta make up your mind. Is my list of people who are town arbitrary, or is it logical and rational?

2) I have no reasons why anyone has to be scum. No-one has to be scum. I lynched quin because I believed him to be the best lynch, because nothing quin could possibly say could undo the damage done by scotty. It seems you want to wilfully ignore this, all while saying that my case on Quin was good and logical and rational etc...

3) "Instead of thinking 'maybe my reasoning was incorrect'... what exactly are you talking about here... the PoE? Because... of course not everyone in the PoE is bad and it's not a surprise to me that someone in it was town. Or is it my logical and rational case on Quin that you agreed with, and that you were willing to lynch him for tomorrow? Because, I don't know if you've noticed, but in mafia people aren't always right...

Why do you think my thinking hasn't changed since Quin came back good? In fact, my reads on who has bad have shifted quite signficantly because he came back town.

The PoE shifts as well... sometimes your reasons for clearing someone as town become clearly poor. Other times, people get themselves out of the PoE. It's not a stake in the ground, the players in it forever unchanging. It's a conceptual basket of everyone who isn't towncleared.

4) "I guess I'm not the type of person who can gleefully murder one innocent person to save five others, and then pat myself on the back for doing so." - here is the problem, right? Because... I'm not either. But thats what win even if dead requires. If quin's town death saves five other civilians, it's by definition a good lynch. If you can't see the logic in this, I don't know how to put it any other way. I'm not trying to force you to agree, but it's daft telling me its 'wrong-headed'. I'm not going to tell you that old-school hunting methods are 'wrong-headed'.

5) I don't have an echo chamber any more than you have an echo chamber. You and epi were running around affirming each other and myopically focussed on one person yesterday, and you absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it. Which I did as well. The only difference between you and me is that the guy I voted for got lynched.

Here's the thing inh - I'm not ON a high horse. I'm not ACTUALLY arrogant. I don't think I know better. You could be entirely right about Jay, I don't know. I was wrong about quin. The way you choose to perceive me is all about you, it's not about me. You can choose to bitch and moan at me, as you did all day yesterday, about why my personality is wrong. Or you can ignore my personality and try to solve the game.

Believe it or not, I took the Jay case seriously yesterday. I read up on Jay. I looked at possible interpretations. For all that you attack me over and over for making 'too many assumptions', I looked at all the angles, and I'm actually probably the person I know who makes the least assumptions. I still have a whole list of notes about what if scotty isn't a seemer, what if scum knew he'd flip bad all along. A whole list of notes about what if scotty is in fact town and him looking bad is a scum trick (which I still think is very viable). I keep every contingency in my mind. I just don't have any need to show that all to you. What I put in the thread yesterday is what I believed - that it doesn't matter who is bad or good, that Quin was a necessary lynch, because Scotty had spewed him, and because he was inevitably going to be lynched and it may as well be out of the way so we know what he was and so we can use that as insight.

What derailed Turf Wars wasn't that we were wrong coming out of the RadicalFuzz lynch. What derailed Turf Wars was that we spent three days afterwards talking about, but not lynching, the civilian who looked terrible coming out of it, and it ended up dividing everybody and making it easy for scum for far too long. In 'win when dead' games, damaged goods have to be culled.

Just so you know this isn't me being heartless - that includes me offering myself up for lynch when I can see that fighting over my alignment is going to derail the game. Win dead or alive games have to be played for the good of the many, not the good of the one. Sorry Quin 1.0, but he had to go.

[Golden]

And yes, I think you are bad right now. I think you are bad for many reasons, some of which you already know because you've responded to them, so making out like it's only PoE is silly. Especially since yesterday I didn't really even have you in my PoE for the day (you may have forgotten that I disagreed with Jay's case on you just as much as I disagreed with you case on Jay).

The biggest reason I think you are bad is your if/then logic, and my sarcastic comment yesterday was aimed straight at it. "If Jay is good, lets lynch Quin tomorrow" - that's terrible, and in saying it I immediately got a sense that if Quin was good, I think you will come back bad.

Things like wanting to continue to make Quin's lynch about me 'If quin is town, its all golden's fault and I'm disappointed in him'.

You actually seem to want to create conflict, and I don't trust it.

Now, if Jay was to be lynched today and come back bad, my thoughts on this would shift again. I don't think an inh/Jay team is likely at all.

Having said that, I do not think your lynch is inevitable and necessary in the way I felt about Quins. For now, it's where my vote is starting at start of day.

[Epignosis]

5) I don't have an echo chamber any more than you have an echo chamber. You and epi were running around affirming each other and myopically focussed on one person yesterday, and you absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it. Which I did as well. The only difference between you and me is that the guy I voted for got lynched.

"Myopically focussed [sic] on one person."

Does that describe me or you?

"Absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it."

Does that describe INH or you?

Golden, I'm not impressed. Your championship shit doesn't work here. Come back home. Deal wid dis mess.

[Golden]

5) I don't have an echo chamber any more than you have an echo chamber. You and epi were running around affirming each other and myopically focussed on one person yesterday, and you absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it. Which I did as well. The only difference between you and me is that the guy I voted for got lynched.

"Myopically focussed [sic] on one person."

Does that describe me or you?

"Absolutely refused to listen to anything from anyone that might even cast the slightest doubt on it."

Does that describe INH or you?

Golden, I'm not impressed. Your championship shit doesn't work here. Come back home. Deal wid dis mess.

Read your own quote.

[Golden]

I don't give a shit who's impressed. My job is not to impress you.

[Golden]

It's up to you to decide whether you think inh is playing the ball or the person. I think he's playing the person.

[Epignosis]

I don't get any of what you just said. Are you mad at me?

[Quin]

'Quin' has been mentioned 275 times so far in this game. 'Quin' was mentioned 897 times in Turf Wars.

[Golden]

I don't get any of what you just said. Are you mad at me?

Just read what I said that you quoted. Given it already answered the questions you asked before you asked them.

Why would I be mad at you?