MAD MAX: GAME OVER

[Scotty]

That Dom is still riding the Scotty train to Nowheresville with Glorf should say enough.

Funny enough, I have been feeling great about Sloon this phase and less so about Epi 2.0. I would entreat someone with more time to look at Quin as well, but I'm feeling pretty great about the prospect of a Glorf/Dom/Epi 2.0 right now.

Epi 2.0 gave Glorf ample time to right the ship, parking his vote on JJJ, but Glorf's refusal to lie forced him to change it.

Dom, I'm still not sure why you haven't changed your vote to Glorf if you are trying to salvage any shred of civness.

I dunno guys but I'm feelin pretty good shot our prospects with at least the next 2 lynches and maybe the game.

Also, I'll go ahead and say I am in no way or shape a Skag.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

That Dom is still riding the Scotty train to Nowheresville with Glorf should say enough.

Is it a train to Nowheresville? Would Dom be less suspicious if he was another meaningless name on a runaway Glorfindel wagon?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dom moved his vote to Glorfindel.

I'm moving my vote to myself to prevent a premature mega-wagon.

[Scotty]

That Dom is still riding the Scotty train to Nowheresville with Glorf should say enough.

Is it a train to Nowheresville? Would Dom be less suspicious if he was another meaningless name on a runaway Glorfindel wagon?

He seems consolidated with Glorf in the matter.

I've at least had skepticism of Glorf for a few phases now. Should have voted him off earlier, but at least I'm doing it now.

Dom has all but condemned Glorf in as little words, while still clinging to me because I supposedly "know" something about his role. Which I do not, but I'm feeling much more confident that I can guess.

[Scotty]

Dom moved his vote to Glorfindel.

I'm moving my vote to myself to prevent a premature mega-wagon.

So we've done this before, but what is the point of curbing megamwagons at this point in the game? Votes are much easier to track, and so far I haven't heard anyone but Glorf defending him.

[Scotty]

Oh shit, I forgot LoRab was playing for a second.

Don't want to rule her out of the picture of a Glorf/Dom team (this is how I'm operating right now), but I have nothing substantive to add yet. Losing wifi

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dom moved his vote to Glorfindel.

I'm moving my vote to myself to prevent a premature mega-wagon.

So we've done this before, but what is the point of curbing megamwagons at this point in the game? Votes are much easier to track, and so far I haven't heard anyone but Glorf defending him.

Mega-wagons curb discussion, and they're a baddie's best friend right or wrong. There's zero pressure in a tally that is dominated by one player.

Glorfindel has supplied a reason for his treatment of my questions. I haven't stated my own perspective on that yet. I want to hear yours and others'.

[Sloonei]

Dom moved his vote to Glorfindel.

I'm moving my vote to myself to prevent a premature mega-wagon.

So we've done this before, but what is the point of curbing megamwagons at this point in the game? Votes are much easier to track, and so far I haven't heard anyone but Glorf defending him.

Megawagons sometimes drag all the conversation with them. I think we're in good shape lynching Glorfindel, but there's lots of time available to us for discussion about everything else. Let's use it.

Linki: dat

[Sloonei]

Glorfindel has supplied a reason for his treatment of my questions. I haven't stated my own perspective on that yet. I want to hear yours and others'.

I think it's a fair response and I believe the sentiment he is expressing. But it does not absolve him in this game in my eyes. I also think he did dance around the questions, contrary to what he claims in his last post. I think, prior to that response, everything he said had the look of someone trying to dance away from it. I think we've caught a baddie Glorfindel.

[Sloonei]

I'd also like to sort out Dom and Quin if we have time. I'd like to sort out whatever's going on between them because I still don't understand it and want the two of them to be here to figure things out.
I'm currently leaning town on both of them, but that's not exceptionally strong in either case. I feel better about Quin than Dom.

[Glorfindel]

That Dom is still riding the Scotty train to Nowheresville with Glorf should say enough.

Funny enough, I have been feeling great about Sloon this phase and less so about Epi 2.0. I would entreat someone with more time to look at Quin as well, but I'm feeling pretty great about the prospect of a Glorf/Dom/Epi 2.0 right now.

Epi 2.0 gave Glorf ample time to right the ship, parking his vote on JJJ, but Glorf's refusal to lie forced him to change it.

Dom, I'm still not sure why you haven't changed your vote to Glorf if you are trying to salvage any shred of civness.

I dunno guys but I'm feelin pretty good shot our prospects with at least the next 2 lynches and maybe the game.

Also, I'll go ahead and say I am in no way or shape a Skag.

May I please ask that someone do a calculation as to how close we are to losing this thing. Perhaps THAT is the reason for Scotty 2.0's unbridled glee at my impending lynch

[Quin]

I'd also like to sort out Dom and Quin if we have time. I'd like to sort out whatever's going on between them because I still don't understand it and want the two of them to be here to figure things out.
I'm currently leaning town on both of them, but that's not exceptionally strong in either case. I feel better about Quin than Dom.

If there's anything from my side you don't understand I can elaborate, but I think I've done a good job of that already. I urge you to anyway, because I think he's bad and the votes just aren't happening.

As for Glorfindel, this adversity to lying case is just a thing to me. There are more concrete things that make him suspicious. So I don't oppose the lynch, but if there's going to be an alternative wagon it's going to be Dom.

[Glorfindel]

It is for this reason, that I am not going to avoid or dance around your questions. I simply categorically refuse to answer them because to do so, would continue to perpetuate what I now fear is a bad approach to these games on my behalf. When I say that I refuse to answer them, let me be absolutely explicit here, I mean not now and not ever again. I trust you will understand what I've tried to explain here in all sincerity. I accept that some more cynical minds will question why I've taken this stance right now, in this game and whether it wouldn't be easier for me to simply answer your questions and adopt my new approach next game. To me, this is a moral question. If I am unable to stand by my principles in a time when (it appears) it counts the most, then when can I?

Independent of reads in this game, I can respect this. It was actually something I thought we might discuss a little in the post-game conversation after this one ends. As I see it, there are only two solutions to your dilemma:

1. Change your approach by adopting a willingness to lie.

2. Categorically refuse to answer any lie-compatible questions in any game you ever play regardless of alignment.

#2 allows you to maintain the moral code you prefer to play with, and I wouldn't fault you for taking that route (as it appears you have just now). It's similar to Epi's own refusal to answer questions or make statements that are vulnerable to lie detector roles.

My lingering concern is close to what you mention at the end there: why not make this refusal clear the first fews times I asked those questions instead of waiting until now? That's a challenging dilemma for me to tackle now, but I will think on it. At the least I'll stop with these interactive analyses, I've run out of time for those anyway.

In the mean time, I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks of this.

Thank you Jay for considering my response - that is all I asked of you and I appreciate you doing that. I think Scotty's response however put the lie to his earlier offer to me:

Glorf, are you bad?

If you say the right answer, I might move my vote

And Sloonei, I've been with you all game and I respect your decision in this whatever you choose to do. The fact however that you've consistently ignored the case I put against Scotty whilst supporting his push against me based on (frankly) nothing is something that I doubt I'll ever comprehend. You asked me yesterday (eventually) to engage with him about his rebuttal of my ISO. I did that. He's not responded. If all this isn't setting off alarm bells for you, I think you're asleep at the wheel...

[JaggedJimmyJay]

May I please ask that someone do a calculation as to how close we are to losing this thing. Perhaps THAT is the reason for Scotty 2.0's unbridled glee at my impending lynch

In a standard scenario, our 6 vs. 3 scenario would equate to one free mislynch. The presence of a potentially lynchproof baddie might negate that though, and instead make it one free unsuccessful lynch (mislynch OR failed lynch, not both).

Could you try to elaborate specifically on what caused you to delay in your refusal to answer my questions?

[Sloonei]

Glorfindel has a good point. Scotty hasn't said anything to Glorf's most recent response to him. Scotty, got
Anything to say? Just because we're lynching Glorfindel doesn't mean we're ignoring what he has to say.

[Glorfindel]

May I please ask that someone do a calculation as to how close we are to losing this thing. Perhaps THAT is the reason for Scotty 2.0's unbridled glee at my impending lynch

In a standard scenario, our 6 vs. 3 scenario would equate to one free mislynch. The presence of a potentially lynchproof baddie might negate that though, and instead make it one free unsuccessful lynch (mislynch OR failed lynch, not both).

Could you try to elaborate specifically on what caused you to delay in your refusal to answer my questions?

Certainly, Jay. I wanted to watch this play out to see what other's reactions would be as I thought it may give me some insight into the identity of other players. I understood the place from where you were coming in asking those questions and I expect (that being part of our initial conversation) Epi may as well (although I have no clue what he thought he was doing with those gifs...) but the fact that Scotty latched on to me like a drowning man to a lifebuoy (in my view) speaks volumes. The fact that he's done so with the (apparent) support of others in the face of reasonable evidence for suspicion against him does more so.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

General question: is the most substantive reason we have for calling INH Silvertongue the contents of a host post?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Could you try to elaborate specifically on what caused you to delay in your refusal to answer my questions?

Certainly, Jay. I wanted to watch this play out to see what other's reactions would be as I thought it may give me some insight into the identity of other players. I understood the place from where you were coming in asking those questions and I expect (that being part of our initial conversation) Epi may as well (although I have no clue what he thought he was doing with those gifs...) but the fact that Scotty latched on to me like a drowning man to a lifebuoy (in my view) speaks volumes. The fact that he's done so with the (apparent) support of others in the face of reasonable evidence for suspicion against him does more so.[/quote]

How do you feel other players look in this situation, particularly Dom, Sloonei, and Quin?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Quote repair:

Certainly, Jay. I wanted to watch this play out to see what other's reactions would be as I thought it may give me some insight into the identity of other players. I understood the place from where you were coming in asking those questions and I expect (that being part of our initial conversation) Epi may as well (although I have no clue what he thought he was doing with those gifs...) but the fact that Scotty latched on to me like a drowning man to a lifebuoy (in my view) speaks volumes. The fact that he's done so with the (apparent) support of others in the face of reasonable evidence for suspicion against him does more so.

How do you feel other players look in this situation, particularly Dom, Sloonei, and Quin?

[Quin]

General question: is the most substantive reason we have for calling INH Silvertongue the contents of a host post?

That, and his actions after the host post. Do you still have doubts?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

General question: is the most substantive reason we have for calling INH Silvertongue the contents of a host post?

That, and his actions after the host post. Do you still have doubts?

I think his actions after the host post are as compatible with Cundalini as with Silvertongue. My lingering doubt rests with the possibility that Glorfindel is Silvertongue. I keep thinking there has to be a good reason he was the only person loudly contesting the assumption that INH was Silvertongue.

[Quin]

General question: is the most substantive reason we have for calling INH Silvertongue the contents of a host post?

That, and his actions after the host post. Do you still have doubts?

I think his actions after the host post are as compatible with Cundalini as with Silvertongue. My lingering doubt rests with the possibility that Glorfindel is Silvertongue. I keep thinking there has to be a good reason he was the only person loudly contesting the assumption that INH was Silvertongue.

What do you think about this post? You may have missed it when we talked yesterday.

Then I'd probably say it's the former. What are you thoughts on Scotty and INH?

Right now Scotty is more lynchable than INH. I would happily consider a case against either of them.

Would you still consider an INH lynch given that the context of his lynch post infers a relationship to Silvertongue?

I'd at least consider it. There remains the possibility that someone else is Silvertongue and saved him -- that being Glorfindel (the only person promoting an alternative theory and resisting the Silvertongue theory). If Glorfindel is not Silvertongue then I think the likelihood that INH is increases significantly.

G-Man also kind of pooh-poohed the notion that his host posts are filled with clues this time.

G-Man's night post also made the inference that you were saved by the doctor. If I'm going to believe in that inference (which I do), I'm also going to believe that INH was saved by Silvertongue.

You earlier entertained this post:

Spoiler: show

Someone look at INH's vote records after I'm gone. If his votes have been irrelevant many times in a row he may be Cundilini hiding his lack of vote power.

That's... a great point.

Assuming he was saved by Silvertongue, I don't think INH can be Cundalini. In that scenario his lynch wouldn't have triggered his self-protect and would still have voting power, which is inconsistent with his past two voting behaviours. Unless he's fucking with us.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I did miss it. If INH is Cundalini though there is no need for Silvertongue to have played a role in preventing his lynch. The host post may seem to imply it, but it's still a matter of flavor more than anything else -- and G-Man himself was less than enthusiastic about granting that meaningful clues exist in his host posts in this game as compared to Red vs. Blue.

[Sloonei]

General question: is the most substantive reason we have for calling INH Silvertongue the contents of a host post?

Yes, and I've grown slightly less confident about that. I still think he's Silvertongue, but I want him back on the table. He has completely disappeared since his failed lynch.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

One thing I definitely don't think is that a Silvertongue Glorfindel saved INH. Glorfindel is the one who placed the deciding vote on him in his attempted lynch, so to save him immediately after that would make very little sense. I think there are only two options here:

~ INH is exactly Silvertongue and Glorfindel is not (with a decent chance of being Cundalini)

~ INH is exactly Cundalini and Glorfindel is exactly Silvertongue

[Quin]

I did miss it. If INH is Cundalini though there is no need for Silvertongue to have played a role in preventing his lynch. The host post may seem to imply it, but it's still a matter of flavor more than anything else -- and G-Man himself was less than enthusiastic about granting that meaningful clues exist in his host posts in this game as compared to Red vs. Blue.

Why do you think this?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Another point of note, maybe:

When I was protected from a night kill, the host post specifically named May Swaisey as my protector. When INH survived a lynch, there was no specific role named as his pardoner.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I did miss it. If INH is Cundalini though there is no need for Silvertongue to have played a role in preventing his lynch. The host post may seem to imply it, but it's still a matter of flavor more than anything else -- and G-Man himself was less than enthusiastic about granting that meaningful clues exist in his host posts in this game as compared to Red vs. Blue.

Why do you think this?

It's a component of the role: Cundalini survives the first brush with death (either a night kill or a lynch).

[Quin]

I did miss it. If INH is Cundalini though there is no need for Silvertongue to have played a role in preventing his lynch. The host post may seem to imply it, but it's still a matter of flavor more than anything else -- and G-Man himself was less than enthusiastic about granting that meaningful clues exist in his host posts in this game as compared to Red vs. Blue.

Why do you think this?

It's a component of the role: Cundalini survives the first brush with death (either a night kill or a lynch).

So you think it's a matter of role-use priority?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So you think it's a matter of role-use priority?

I'm not sure what you mean. Silvertongue is town and Cundalini is mafia, so there's no need for coordination in their moves. This is the scenario I am suggesting:

INH is Cundalini. We try to lynch him and it doesn't work.

Player X is Silvertongue. Player X does not interfere with the lynch attempt. It still doesn't work.

[Quin]

So you think it's a matter of role-use priority?

I'm not sure what you mean. Silvertongue is town and Cundalini is mafia, so there's no need for coordination in their moves. This is the scenario I am suggesting:

INH is Cundalini. We try to lynch him and it doesn't work.

Player X is Silvertongue. Player X does not interfere with the lynch attempt. It still doesn't work.

I thought that you thought both INH was Cundalini and Silvertongue saved him. But you think that Silvertongue had nothing to do with his survival. I still disagree, I think the courtroom setting infers a relationship to Silvertongue.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Either way, I think that a bad Glorfindel strongly implies a town INH. That'd perhaps be the most conclusive thing to draw from that flip should it happen.

If Glorfindel IS Silvertongue, well, you know.

[Quin]

Either way, I think that a bad Glorfindel strongly implies a town INH. That'd perhaps be the most conclusive thing to draw from that flip should it happen.

If Glorfindel IS Silvertongue, well, you know.

What do you think about my Dom case?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Either way, I think that a bad Glorfindel strongly implies a town INH. That'd perhaps be the most conclusive thing to draw from that flip should it happen.

If Glorfindel IS Silvertongue, well, you know.

What do you think about my Dom case?

Thanks for the reminder. I think the observations you make and trends you highlight warrant a substantive response from Dom -- not one littered with YOU'RE LYING or the like. Also the posts you brought up made me think of something else: LoRab suggested he was paranoid, an assertion he clearly didn't like.

And then when he was on the chopping block, he couldn't stop yelling about how both you and Sloonei were coordinating against him in an evil master plot. That's textbook paranoia.

As I said in my own review as well: I think a bad Glorfindel increases the chances of a bad Dom.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have to take my leave now. At this point I'm left just hoping Glorfindel is bad, because he's the likely lynch and I cannot offer a better alternative. I could fathom lynching Dom or Scotty I guess.

I hope y'all are able to maintain the dialogue through the deadline. I'll leave my vote where it is for now. I should be able to poke in later and do something more useful with it, but I can't promise I'll be able to say much of anything.

[Sloonei]

Why is Dom's paranoia scum paranoia and not town paranoia?

[Quin]

Either way, I think that a bad Glorfindel strongly implies a town INH. That'd perhaps be the most conclusive thing to draw from that flip should it happen.

If Glorfindel IS Silvertongue, well, you know.

What do you think about my Dom case?

Thanks for the reminder. I think the observations you make and trends you highlight warrant a substantive response from Dom -- not one littered with YOU'RE LYING or the like. Also the posts you brought up made me think of something else: LoRab suggested he was paranoid, an assertion he clearly didn't like.

And then when he was on the chopping block, he couldn't stop yelling about how both you and Sloonei were coordinating against him in an evil master plot. That's textbook paranoia.

As I said in my own review as well: I think a bad Glorfindel increases the chances of a bad Dom.

I mentioned that dialogue between Lorab and Dom as well. He attempted to discredit it.

Spoiler: show

Here's that ISO Dom was itching for. Every occurrence of one of the two codes I mentioned earlier in his posts:
<<SNIP FOR BREVITY>>

I voted for Dom. I would like him to talk about his case against me.

I don't really think the LoRab case is comparable in any fashion.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why is Dom's paranoia scum paranoia and not town paranoia?

It could be either. I would say though that his paranoia reaches beyond the realm of reason and into the realm of parody. That's not ideal.

[Sloonei]

I'd also like to sort out Dom and Quin if we have time. I'd like to sort out whatever's going on between them because I still don't understand it and want the two of them to be here to figure things out.
I'm currently leaning town on both of them, but that's not exceptionally strong in either case. I feel better about Quin than Dom.

If there's anything from my side you don't understand I can elaborate, but I think I've done a good job of that already. I urge you to anyway, because I think he's bad and the votes just aren't happening.

As for Glorfindel, this adversity to lying case is just a thing to me. There are more concrete things that make him suspicious. So I don't oppose the lynch, but if there's going to be an alternative wagon it's going to be Dom.

My confusion stems more from Dom's behavior than yours. I first want to know what he's accusing you of and why, and then your thoughts on that. Like I said, I know the answer is in the thread somewhere but I want this to be brought out in the clearest terms possible.

[Sloonei]

Why is Dom's paranoia scum paranoia and not town paranoia?

It could be either. I would say though that his paranoia reaches beyond the realm of reason and into the realm of parody. That's not ideal.

I remember his accusation that Quin and I were coordinating attacks on him at yesterday's deadline seeming to be off the deep end, but I wasn't sure if that was because I was being specifically accused.

[Sloonei]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

[Quin]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Dom is the one I want to talk to, but he's not here. If he shows up I'll have something to talk about. Is there anything you wanted to talk about?

[Glorfindel]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Less than an hour to go and no response from your questioning of Scotty... but no, let's just ignore that and lynch 'good 'ol Glorf'... I wonder why I even bothered

[Quin]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Less than an hour to go and no response from your questioning of Scotty... but no, let's just ignore that and lynch 'good 'ol Glorf'... I wonder why I even bothered

Is Sloonei bad?

[Sloonei]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Less than an hour to go and no response from your questioning of Scotty... but no, let's just ignore that and lynch 'good 'ol Glorf'... I wonder why I even bothered

Scotty has not been here. I can't fault him for not being present in the thread.

[Sloonei]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Dom is the one I want to talk to, but he's not here. If he shows up I'll have something to talk about. Is there anything you wanted to talk about?

Dom as well. And INH. But neither has been here all day, so it's been tough.
For our sake, let's assume Dom and Glorfindel are both bad. Who is their teammate?

[Quin]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Dom is the one I want to talk to, but he's not here. If he shows up I'll have something to talk about. Is there anything you wanted to talk about?

Dom as well. And INH. But neither has been here all day, so it's been tough.
For our sake, let's assume Dom and Glorfindel are both bad. Who is their teammate?

Scotty, although I doubt myself a little when I think about this interaction between him and Glorf.

What do you think?

[Sloonei]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Dom is the one I want to talk to, but he's not here. If he shows up I'll have something to talk about. Is there anything you wanted to talk about?

Dom as well. And INH. But neither has been here all day, so it's been tough.
For our sake, let's assume Dom and Glorfindel are both bad. Who is their teammate?

Scotty, although I doubt myself a little when I think about this interaction between him and Glorf.

What do you think?

A part of me could still go for Epi, and LoRab can't he discounted either. I said yesterday that she's a strong town read, but that doesn't eliminate her from suspicion.
The same goes for you. Why is it not you?

[Quin]

Is there going to be any activity or we just twiddling our thumbs while waiting for Glorfindel to flip?

Dom is the one I want to talk to, but he's not here. If he shows up I'll have something to talk about. Is there anything you wanted to talk about?

Dom as well. And INH. But neither has been here all day, so it's been tough.
For our sake, let's assume Dom and Glorfindel are both bad. Who is their teammate?

Scotty, although I doubt myself a little when I think about this interaction between him and Glorf.

What do you think?

A part of me could still go for Epi, and LoRab can't he discounted either. I said yesterday that she's a strong town read, but that doesn't eliminate her from suspicion.
The same goes for you. Why is it not you?

Dom's paranoia argument with LoRab could have been an attempt at distancing. I'll look to see how that argument actually developed. I don't have any immediate thoughts about Epi.

It's not me because I brought a strong case against Eloh that had a lot to do with her lynch. It's not me because I've been a consistent town read on nearly everybody's rainbow list and for good reason.

[Sloonei]

Since I just named pretty much everyone, I recalled my answer to Dom's Question from yesterday and his subsequent response to that answer. I have to ask, did his interpretation of my answer also make no sense to the point of seeming deliberately misinformed to anyone else, or was that another instance where I was simply incredulous to possibility of not being understood?

I am referring to his claim that me saying I'd vote "Glorfindel until further notice" meant "Glorfindel until I die".