MAD MAX: GAME OVER

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonei acting like my "if they're not all bad who is the replacement baddie" question was confusing is a bad look knowing that Scotty was the secured kill during that final hour.

[Sloonei]

Well that answers that question. Voting Glorfindel. Feeling fairly confident that Dom is one of his teammates. But then he's got another teammate.

[Sloonei]

Sloonei acting like my "if they're not all bad who is the replacement baddie" question was confusing is a bad look knowing that Scotty was the secured kill during that final hour.

"Replacement" means a player who subbed in for another in this game. My mind tried to figure out which replacements were still alive. It didn't make sense.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Well that answers that question. Voting Glorfindel. Feeling fairly confident that Dom is one of his teammates. But then he's got another teammate.

What do you think we should do with this night kill choice? It's one thing to avoid me for fear of the protector; it's another thing to kill a guy that was being called a baddie by numerous people.

[Sloonei]

Well that answers that question. Voting Glorfindel. Feeling fairly confident that Dom is one of his teammates. But then he's got another teammate.

What do you think we should do with this night kill choice? It's one thing to avoid me for fear of the protector; it's another thing to kill a guy that was being called a baddie by numerous people.

It seems like it was done for the sake of WIFOM. By killing Scotty we are plunged into darkness in terms of who to lynch next. Dom is still out there and my first instinct is to say he looks more likely be bad now, but after that we have another baddie out there who is more obscure at the moment. I appreciate that they gave us an easy solution to the Glorf-Dom-Scotty theory, now we don't have to spend any more time on that.

[Scotty]

doh. Good game, thanks for the game x2!

Let me know if you need another replacement lol

[Epignosis]

Well that answers that question. Voting Glorfindel. Feeling fairly confident that Dom is one of his teammates. But then he's got another teammate.

What do you think we should do with this night kill choice? It's one thing to avoid me for fear of the protector; it's another thing to kill a guy that was being called a baddie by numerous people.

Was anybody going to protect Scotty?

Safe kill. The End.

I've been bad a lot.

Voting Glorf.

[Epignosis]

My point is this: Don't overanalyze it. When a somebody is protected from a kill, bad guys go crazy trying to work out who the protector is targeting.

[Epignosis]

The real question is this: Who is strapping Glorf to the road and driving the Greyhound?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I suppose another obvious motive could be thinking Scotty might be the protector.

[Sloonei]

Do we feel that Dom is likely to be one of the remaining baddies?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think the case against him is considerably stronger if Glorfindel is bad.

[Dom]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

[LoRab]

I'm so sorry I missed the lynch vote. I expected to be able to get on this afternoon. But my uncle died today. And, to further complicate life, it's my cousin's Bar Mitzvah this weekend (said uncle's grandson). So, yeah--life is interesting.

I see the lynch as inconclusive. G-Man said earlier that we cannot infer anything from the language of survival and that it won't necessarily be consistent. So...yeah. I don't have any deeper thoughts at the moment.

I'm sorry for your loss

I do not think G-man said we can't infer anything from his posts. I think he said the opposite of that. All he said was that there won't be any major game mechanic reveals in his host posts like there were in Red vs. Blue, the earlier game I was referencing. After that, though, he confirms that there will be some information passed into the thread from these posts:

While we're on the subject of G-man's posts, I want to bump this post for fear that it's going to get buried:

Something to keep in mind in this game will be G-Man's host posts. In his last game, Red vs. Blue, be made it clear that his story posts were not just there for flavor, but that they included real hints about the game and we were able to peace together some key game mechanics by analyzing them. That is something we should be keeping an eye out for in this game as well. I've not caught anything yet but if anyone else comes up with anything, shout it out.

Red vs. Blue was unique in that it was a closed setup. That allowed me to reference the secret mechanics that only certain roles knew about. In this game, all relevant mechanics are laid bare and there are no secret components to any roles. Night posts are more about flavor now than they were for RvB but there is some info to be gleaned from them. Probably not as much as you're speculating but there are and will be a few nuggets.

And I think the two failed lynches we've just seen reflect exactly that. INH's failed lynch featured a narrative about a lawyer entering a courtroom and persuading the jury not to convict him (Exactly what Silvertongue's role would do). Glorfindel's featured a rigged hanging mechanism and a chaotic survival, exactly what you'd expect from a baddie role that survives a lynch. I was confident INH was saved by Silvertongue, and now I am damn near positive that Glorfindel was one of the two survival roles.

I was actually referring to this post:

As I've said, we do not know that failed kills/non-lynches are written differently. I also realize we haven't asked the host. So:

@GMan: In this gme, are failed lynches because a player survives the first kill attempt written differently than a lynch being stopped by silvertongue? Similarly, are failed night kills written the same or differently, based on protection, block, or survival of first death attempt?

I reserve the right to be as specific or vague in each lynch and night post as I choose to be.

Which I think does say that we can't really infer anything.

Anyway, I am way too tired and slightly drunk after a night of Bar Mitzvah-ing, to think through much of anything. While I still have personal doubts about Glorf, I think that's fairly irrelevant at this point, because his lynch seems like a done deal. I do think we should be thinking beyond this lynch, though.

[Quin]

I voted Dom. No need for solidarity. Dom is bad regardless of Glorfindel's flip.

[Dom]

That is predicated on some shakey logic but okay
Maybe Ive been wrong a lot but I'm not bad. Lynch me if you want.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

[Dom]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

Non game reasons. I don't have the energy or desire to mount a defense. Lynch me if you want it might end the game

[Sloonei]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

Non game reasons. I don't have the energy or desire to mount a defense. Lynch me if you want it might end the game

Will you at least respond to some of the questions that have been addressed to you?

[Dom]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

Non game reasons. I don't have the energy or desire to mount a defense. Lynch me if you want it might end the game

Will you at least respond to some of the questions that have been addressed to you?

I guess. Could you just point them out to me?

[Sloonei]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

Non game reasons. I don't have the energy or desire to mount a defense. Lynch me if you want it might end the game

Will you at least respond to some of the questions that have been addressed to you?

I guess. Could you just point them out to me?

I've asked you to clarify your suspicions of myself and Quin in more objective, less emotional language. I know you have explained it before, but I am not understanding the conclusions you are coming to or where you're drawing them from, and I would appreciate some help figuring it out.

Also if you're not bad then 2 of the remaining players after Glorfindel are bad. Which two? GTH reads are fine if that's all you are up for.

[Dom]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

Non game reasons. I don't have the energy or desire to mount a defense. Lynch me if you want it might end the game

Will you at least respond to some of the questions that have been addressed to you?

I guess. Could you just point them out to me?

I've asked you to clarify your suspicions of myself and Quin in more objective, less emotional language. I know you have explained it before, but I am not understanding the conclusions you are coming to or where you're drawing them from, and I would appreciate some help figuring it out.

Also if you're not bad then 2 of the remaining players after Glorfindel are bad. Which two? GTH reads are fine if that's all you are up for.

I'll respond to the second part later.
My suspicion of you was rooted in your not listening to me, but I think since we've come to a greater understanding. I was nervous and suspicious of you because I wanted questions answers and I perceived you as not answering and holding different people to different standards.
Quinn is rooted in his mistruths about the origins of his suspicion of me. He began it with a falsehood. He has found reasons to continue it. He's more concerned with being right than lynching a baddie.

[Sloonei]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

Non game reasons. I don't have the energy or desire to mount a defense. Lynch me if you want it might end the game

Will you at least respond to some of the questions that have been addressed to you?

I guess. Could you just point them out to me?

I've asked you to clarify your suspicions of myself and Quin in more objective, less emotional language. I know you have explained it before, but I am not understanding the conclusions you are coming to or where you're drawing them from, and I would appreciate some help figuring it out.

Also if you're not bad then 2 of the remaining players after Glorfindel are bad. Which two? GTH reads are fine if that's all you are up for.

I'll respond to the second part later.
My suspicion of you was rooted in your not listening to me, but I think since we've come to a greater understanding. I was nervous and suspicious of you because I wanted questions answers and I perceived you as not answering and holding different people to different standards.
Quinn is rooted in his mistruths about the origins of his suspicion of me. He began it with a falsehood. He has found reasons to continue it. He's more concerned with being right than lynching a baddie.

What was this falsehood and how has he continued it?

[Sloonei]

I'm so sorry I missed the lynch vote. I expected to be able to get on this afternoon. But my uncle died today. And, to further complicate life, it's my cousin's Bar Mitzvah this weekend (said uncle's grandson). So, yeah--life is interesting.

I see the lynch as inconclusive. G-Man said earlier that we cannot infer anything from the language of survival and that it won't necessarily be consistent. So...yeah. I don't have any deeper thoughts at the moment.

I'm sorry for your loss

I do not think G-man said we can't infer anything from his posts. I think he said the opposite of that. All he said was that there won't be any major game mechanic reveals in his host posts like there were in Red vs. Blue, the earlier game I was referencing. After that, though, he confirms that there will be some information passed into the thread from these posts:

While we're on the subject of G-man's posts, I want to bump this post for fear that it's going to get buried:

Something to keep in mind in this game will be G-Man's host posts. In his last game, Red vs. Blue, be made it clear that his story posts were not just there for flavor, but that they included real hints about the game and we were able to peace together some key game mechanics by analyzing them. That is something we should be keeping an eye out for in this game as well. I've not caught anything yet but if anyone else comes up with anything, shout it out.

Red vs. Blue was unique in that it was a closed setup. That allowed me to reference the secret mechanics that only certain roles knew about. In this game, all relevant mechanics are laid bare and there are no secret components to any roles. Night posts are more about flavor now than they were for RvB but there is some info to be gleaned from them. Probably not as much as you're speculating but there are and will be a few nuggets.

And I think the two failed lynches we've just seen reflect exactly that. INH's failed lynch featured a narrative about a lawyer entering a courtroom and persuading the jury not to convict him (Exactly what Silvertongue's role would do). Glorfindel's featured a rigged hanging mechanism and a chaotic survival, exactly what you'd expect from a baddie role that survives a lynch. I was confident INH was saved by Silvertongue, and now I am damn near positive that Glorfindel was one of the two survival roles.

I was actually referring to this post:

As I've said, we do not know that failed kills/non-lynches are written differently. I also realize we haven't asked the host. So:

@GMan: In this gme, are failed lynches because a player survives the first kill attempt written differently than a lynch being stopped by silvertongue? Similarly, are failed night kills written the same or differently, based on protection, block, or survival of first death attempt?

I reserve the right to be as specific or vague in each lynch and night post as I choose to be.

Which I think does say that we can't really infer anything.

Anyway, I am way too tired and slightly drunk after a night of Bar Mitzvah-ing, to think through much of anything. While I still have personal doubts about Glorf, I think that's fairly irrelevant at this point, because his lynch seems like a done deal. I do think we should be thinking beyond this lynch, though.

I acknowledge this post you are bringing up. Do you acknowledge that one I brought up?

[Dom]

I'm not bad but I honestly don't even care at this point.

Why don't you care?

Non game reasons. I don't have the energy or desire to mount a defense. Lynch me if you want it might end the game

Will you at least respond to some of the questions that have been addressed to you?

I guess. Could you just point them out to me?[/quote
I've asked you to clarify your suspicions of myself and Quin in more objective, less emotional language. I know you have explained it before, but I am not understanding the conclusions you are coming to or where you're drawing them from, and I would appreciate some help figuring it out.

Also if you're not bad then 2 of the remaining players after Glorfindel are bad. Which two? GTH reads are fine if that's all you are up for.

I'll respond to the second part later.
My suspicion of you was rooted in your not listening to me, but I think since we've come to a greater understanding. I was nervous and suspicious of you because I wanted questions answers and I perceived you as not answering and holding different people to different standards.
Quinn is rooted in his mistruths about the origins of his suspicion of me. He began it with a falsehood. He has found reasons to continue it. He's more concerned with being right than lynching a baddie.

What was this falsehood and how has he continued it?

He started his suspicion of me based on Mac suspecting me (he didn't).
He found reasons to continue to suspect me.

[Sloonei]

I'll respond to the second part later.
My suspicion of you was rooted in your not listening to me, but I think since we've come to a greater understanding. I was nervous and suspicious of you because I wanted questions answers and I perceived you as not answering and holding different people to different standards.
Quinn is rooted in his mistruths about the origins of his suspicion of me. He began it with a falsehood. He has found reasons to continue it. He's more concerned with being right than lynching a baddie.

What was this falsehood and how has he continued it?

He started his suspicion of me based on Mac suspecting me (he didn't).
He found reasons to continue to suspect me.

In this context is unfair of you to dismiss everything else Quin has to say about you as "finding reasons to continue" suspecting you. What are those reasons he found? It sounds to me like he based his initial suspicion off of a dubious claim but it has since become something else. That is not something I would scum read a person for, at least not on the surface of it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm warming to the notion of Quin being bad. I'll explain later.

[Dom]

I'll respond to the second part later.
My suspicion of you was rooted in your not listening to me, but I think since we've come to a greater understanding. I was nervous and suspicious of you because I wanted questions answers and I perceived you as not answering and holding different people to different standards.
Quinn is rooted in his mistruths about the origins of his suspicion of me. He began it with a falsehood. He has found reasons to continue it. He's more concerned with being right than lynching a baddie.

What was this falsehood and how has he continued it?

He started his suspicion of me based on Mac suspecting me (he didn't).
He found reasons to continue to suspect me.

In this context is unfair of you to dismiss everything else Quin has to say about you as "finding reasons to continue" suspecting you. What are those reasons he found? It sounds to me like he based his initial suspicion off of a dubious claim but it has since become something else. That is not something I would scum read a person for, at least not on the surface of it.

I do not feel good about him. I think he is looknig for reasons I am bad rather than looking for baddies.

[Sloonei]

I'll respond to the second part later.
My suspicion of you was rooted in your not listening to me, but I think since we've come to a greater understanding. I was nervous and suspicious of you because I wanted questions answers and I perceived you as not answering and holding different people to different standards.
Quinn is rooted in his mistruths about the origins of his suspicion of me. He began it with a falsehood. He has found reasons to continue it. He's more concerned with being right than lynching a baddie.

What was this falsehood and how has he continued it?

He started his suspicion of me based on Mac suspecting me (he didn't).
He found reasons to continue to suspect me.

In this context is unfair of you to dismiss everything else Quin has to say about you as "finding reasons to continue" suspecting you. What are those reasons he found? It sounds to me like he based his initial suspicion off of a dubious claim but it has since become something else. That is not something I would scum read a person for, at least not on the surface of it.

I do not feel good about him. I think he is looknig for reasons I am bad rather than looking for baddies.

This is fair and I'd appreciate it if you could substantiate it, but you do not have to go beyond whatever you feel inspired to do. I will say that I've mistakenly scum-read Quin before for similar behavior, though. It was not so close to an end-game scenario like this, and he's certainly capable of doing this as a baddie. But it's not something I'd immediately give him a scum read for.

[Dom]

I don't E gen know what to do. My suspects keep getting NKd

[Sloonei]

I don't E gen know what to do. My suspects keep getting NKd

Except for Quin. What do you make of that?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Perhaps the best thing in Quin's favor is his treatment of Elohcin -- not merely that he went after her, but that he did so pretty quickly after joining the game. He'd have had to receive specific instructions from the baddie chat to bus her, I think.

[Quin]

SNIPPED

You're clinging to this argument that I'm spreading mistruths about you even though you refuse to tell me the advantage in doing so. I retracted my suspicion after you proved me wrong within 5 minutes - to pretend that I wouldn't think so far ahead is frankly, insulting. I have indeed found reasons to suspect you entirely outside of that. Again, you won't respond to them. How exactly am I making my suspicion up when you're the one refusing to acknowledge every thing I say to you? It reeks.

[Quin]

I'm warming to the notion of Quin being bad. I'll explain later.

Please.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm warming to the notion of Quin being bad. I'll explain later.

Please.

Your voting record is arguably more uninspiring than anyone else's. You've been so focused on Dom for the last two or three day phases that it has left you less involved with other conversations. I agree with him on some level that your communication with him has been restrictive and closed.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Part of the reason I was considering a Glorfindel-Dom-Scotty team was that I thought all three of them looked like they were in a coordinated distancing effort from one another. Scotty being killed dismantles that dynamic, and it makes me feel inclined to reassess everything. At least one player who appears good at face value is not (and quite possibly more than one): Quin, LoRab, Sloonei, Epignosis, or INH. To discount any of them wouldn't just be foolish -- it'd lose the game.

Unfortunately my time is pretty limited today. I need someone else to take up the banner and cover the workload if anyone can. I want to look into other three-player team dynamics that don't necessarily feature Dom or even Glorfindel.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It should also be noted that Epignosis has done almost nothing over the last few days.

[Epignosis]

It should also be noted that Epignosis has done almost nothing over the last few days.

Noted.

[Quin]

I'm warming to the notion of Quin being bad. I'll explain later.

Please.

Your voting record is arguably more uninspiring than anyone else's. You've been so focused on Dom for the last two or three day phases that it has left you less involved with other conversations. I agree with him on some level that your communication with him has been restrictive and closed.

I don't think you can determine whether my voting record is good or bad when we haven't flipped a baddie since Eloh. We can come back to that when Glorf flips.

Which conversations do you think I've been less involved with? As far as I remember I've been more involved in conversation than most people.

My communication has been no means restrictive. I'm consistently giving him cues to engage with me in some aspect of conversation. Rehashing my case against him so he has something to talk about. He has chosen not to. That does nothing to quell my suspicion, and if it gives you the impression I'm being restrictive, you need to have another look.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It should also be noted that Epignosis has done almost nothing over the last few days.

Noted.

Who's bad?

[Epignosis]

It should also be noted that Epignosis has done almost nothing over the last few days.

Noted.

Who's bad?

Glorfindel. I said that already.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm warming to the notion of Quin being bad. I'll explain later.

Please.

Your voting record is arguably more uninspiring than anyone else's. You've been so focused on Dom for the last two or three day phases that it has left you less involved with other conversations. I agree with him on some level that your communication with him has been restrictive and closed.

I don't think you can determine whether my voting record is good or bad when we haven't flipped a baddie since Eloh. We can come back to that when Glorf flips.

I didn't say "bad". I said "uninspiring". That's because of your tendency to park your vote on players who aren't likely lynches. It could be stubbornness, or it could be evasion. We've had this conversation before in other games. It doesn't make you bad, but it's a convenient strategy when you are bad.

Which conversations do you think I've been less involved with? As far as I remember I've been more involved in conversation than most people.

Instead of answering this I'll just give you some prompts.

1. Who are the two baddies other than Dom?
2. Which three players do you believe are least likely to be bad? Why?

My communication has been no means restrictive. I'm consistently giving him cues to engage with me in some aspect of conversation. Rehashing my case against him so he has something to talk about. He has chosen not to. That does nothing to quell my suspicion, and if it gives you the impression I'm being restrictive, you need to have another look.

It's a matter of perception. Of course you don't think it has been restrictive. You're you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Glorfindel. I said that already.

Assume he already flipped bad. Who are the other two on his team?

Separately, if he isn't bad, who is?

[Epignosis]

Glorfindel. I said that already.

Assume he already flipped bad. Who are the other two on his team?

Separately, if he isn't bad, who is?

I haven't made up my mind, because, as you've noted, I haven't done anything.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

as you've noted, I haven't done anything.

[Sloonei]

It should also be noted that Epignosis has done almost nothing over the last few days.

Noted.

Who's bad?

Glorfindel. I said that already.

We all know that. Who else?

[Epignosis]

I just thought of something.

Has Glorfindel ever voted for a teammate? I can't recall a time he's ever done that.

So, in looking at the votes, we have MacDougall, no vote, Lorab, INH, indiglo, DrWilgy, Scotty 2.

While that might not be particularly helpful, it does solidify my opinion of Lorab and INH.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Has Glorfindel ever voted for a teammate? I can't recall a time he's ever done that.

I would agree that he would probably resist doing that a great deal. It's one reason I thought LoRab looked better in the Day 3 vote -- Glorfindel had to struggle to find a way to vote for her instead of Elohcin.

[Quin]

I'm warming to the notion of Quin being bad. I'll explain later.

Please.

Your voting record is arguably more uninspiring than anyone else's. You've been so focused on Dom for the last two or three day phases that it has left you less involved with other conversations. I agree with him on some level that your communication with him has been restrictive and closed.

I don't think you can determine whether my voting record is good or bad when we haven't flipped a baddie since Eloh. We can come back to that when Glorf flips.

I didn't say "bad". I said "uninspiring". That's because of your tendency to park your vote on players who aren't likely lynches. It could be stubbornness, or it could be evasion. We've had this conversation before in other games. It doesn't make you bad, but it's a convenient strategy when you are bad.

Which conversations do you think I've been less involved with? As far as I remember I've been more involved in conversation than most people.

Instead of answering this I'll just give you some prompts.

1. Who are the two baddies other than Dom?
2. Which three players do you believe are least likely to be bad? Why?

1. Glorfindel and Epignosis. Glorfindel is either Jim Goose or Cundalini, and I think he's the latter, and Epignosis is a matter of my own PoE.

2. You and INH are cleared as far as I'm concerned. The host posts and INH's voting behaviours lead me to that conclusion. LoRab would be my third, the associations that Wilgy pointed out involving the relationship between her and Eloh do indicate that they are not teammates. Dom's argument furthers that opinion.

I would like you to answer the question I asked, pending you have the time.

My communication has been no means restrictive. I'm consistently giving him cues to engage with me in some aspect of conversation. Rehashing my case against him so he has something to talk about. He has chosen not to. That does nothing to quell my suspicion, and if it gives you the impression I'm being restrictive, you need to have another look.

It's a matter of perception. Of course you don't think it has been restrictive. You're you.

My posts have cues to continue the dialogue. They are there, anyone could pick them up. Ironically, you think my case has been restrictive, yet you're entertaining Dom's case which is a regurgitation of 'he lied' even though I've already countered it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If anyone out there has time to help me out with the analysis nonsense, here's a set of prompts that I think we should look into. I want to see the interactions in each of the following dynamics to see if a baddie team mate relationship is likely:

1. Epignosis / Quin

2. Epignosis / LoRab

3. Quin / LoRab

4. Sloonei / Epignosis

5. Sloonei / Quin

6. Sloonei / LoRab

I'm leaving out INH because he is never bad if Glorfindel is bad. Dom has already been assessed enough. These are the alternative possibilities that haven't been given enough thought yet. This isn't just busy work. If performed diligently, this effort could do a great deal to reduce the possible teams to THE TEAM. If anyone remembers what I tried to do in Turf Wars as Prisoner 509378 to reduce potential teams logically, this is basically the same thing.

I wish I had time to do it myself but I don't.