MAD MAX: GAME OVER

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ask yourself this: why would I keep killing my own top suspects?

It's pretty classic WIFOM. The baddies also seem thoroughly terrified of shooting me again, so they have to shoot somebody. Why wouldn't you do that?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Things Quin has never done in his life:

1. Vote for Glorfindel

That's right.

Who do you propose the final two baddies are? Both of them.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do y'all think we can conclusively eliminate any of these possible combinations:

Epignosis/Zebra and Sloonei

Epignosis/Zebra and Quin

Epignosis/Zebra and Dom

Sloonei and Quin

Sloonei and Dom

Quin and Dom

[Quin]

Things Quin has never done in his life:

1. Vote for Glorfindel

That's right.

Who do you propose the final two baddies are? Both of them.

Dom and Epignosis. You asked me a similar question in the place of answering one I posed to you earlier, care to revisit it?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dom and Epignosis. You asked me a similar question in the place of answering one I posed to you earlier, care to revisit it?

I think I remember, I'll go look. Please illustrate what makes Dom and Epignosis team mates.

[Epignosis]

You could remove me from that pile, but I know you won't.

Do you know that I've never been universally cleared before? True story: I went ages without a civilian win. I won plenty as bad, but never as good. My first ever civilian win, I had people ready to lynch me...even though I had survived a mafia Night kill...three different times.

Not making that up.

To be fair, suspecting someone who has been targeted for three night kills is highly illogical and I'd at least like to think I wouldn't have suspected you in that game.

Let me ask you something, 3J: What could I ever do to get you to 100% trust me?

I'm not sure there is anything you could do. Ask yourself the same question about me: if I hadn't survived a night kill, would you have a confident town read on me right now? You seem to suspect me in every game, and I probably suspect you in a lot of them too. Perhaps it's cautiousness more than reason, or maybe we both recognize that if we don't give each other shit then it's possible nobody else will.

I also play the game a bit differently from you. I am happy to shine my civilian light with blinding brightness, and you probably don't do that. That's your preference, and one of the consequences (apart from strengthening your baddie game significantly) is that it makes you harder to trust by nature.

If you are town, then two among Quin, Sloonei, and Dom are not. Please help me figure out which ones.

My constant scrutiny and suspicion on you is that you yourself are strong mafia by virtue of the fact that nobody is ever going to lynch you without good reason. Their perception is that you are too good of a civilian player, and as such, they'd rather not risk lynching an asset.

I'd like to think I've exploited your blind spots enough that they would no longer assume that, but hey.

I've already said that Dom is bad. I'll check for holes in my thinking there. I am less sure of Sloonei or Quin. I've been bad with Dom before, so maybe there's a bias I'm subconsciously feeding. I don't recall being bad with either Sloonei or Quin.

[insertnamehere]

Hey INH: you were on the money with your Glorfindel read earlier than the rest of us. Is there anyone you feel is particularly likely to be his team mate?

With all of that counterwagon silliness, I can't help but think either Epi or Quin must have been a Glorf teammate trying one last tactic to divert the vote at the last second, and I'm coming out of Day 8 with a better impression of Dom.

Out of the two, I'd say Quin looks worse. Epi's been illogical and counter-intuitive for all of this game, his first civ iteration included. Hell, him acting irrationally is what caused Sloonei and Lorab to sharpen their pitchforks and point them in my direction.


(INCOMPLETE) RAINBOW LIST:

3J - OK, seriously. How the hell are you still alive? I could see Glorfindel, the affectionate chap he is, not wanting to NK you due to how big of a massive target you usually are, just out of sheer kindness and decency, the absolute madman. (Don't look too closely at the structure of that last sentence. Or really, any of my sentences.) But still, I honestly think there's like a 50% chance you're gonna check out after tonight.

Dom - This is more me not liking how people ganged up against him, and how his train almost overtook the Glorf one. Still not gonna clear him of suspicion anytime soon, but Day 8 really did make me reconsider my read of him.

Epignosis - Epi has two modes: Reasonable civ player whom I often agree with, (Red Vs. Blue) and aggressively irreverent intentionally frustrating iconoclast. (Psych, Mad Max) These two modes are often not alignment indicative, but I'm still slightly leaning towards civ on him, at least relative to the other three players below him.

Sloonei - Sloonei's the player I've gone back and forth on the most in my mind this game. There's just something about how he's playing this that rubs me the wrong way. Working hard to discredit people, making himself the arbiter on what posts are content worthy and what are not, asking leading questions by the dozen. About 50% of his gameplay seems to consist of calling other people's posts valueless, or just asking others questions, most of which are fishing for a specific thing that will confirm Sloonei's viewpoint. Ironically, I've had a hard time finding value in a fair amount of his posts. Now, before Sloonei starts interrogating me for the upteenth time asking for sources for my slanderous claims, let me state that I have no idea if Sloonei is civ or not, and I'm not sure if my disagreement with some of his methods means absolutely anything at all. Note the "50%" and "some of his methods." Sloonei has contributed lots of detailed analysis that I would deem full of value, and by no means do all of his posts fall into the categories that I described earlier. Plus, I'm not exactly certain if I can fit him into a partnership with anyone. He just doesn't fit into any of my mental categories. Hell, I go back and forth on whether or not I'm too biased to even have a single opinion on Sloonei! I can guess what Sloonei would think.

Aaaaand now it's too late and I have to go.

Lorab and Epi tomorrow, sorry.

[Epignosis]

Things Quin has never done in his life:

1. Vote for Glorfindel

That's right.

Who do you propose the final two baddies are? Both of them.

Dom and Epignosis. You asked me a similar question in the place of answering one I posed to you earlier, care to revisit it?

I wanted to lynch Dom over Glorfindel.

I had originally voted Glorfindel.

You think I would have given up a more valuable teammate?

Nah.

[Quin]

Dom and Epignosis. You asked me a similar question in the place of answering one I posed to you earlier, care to revisit it?

I think I remember, I'll go look. Please illustrate what makes Dom and Epignosis team mates.

My reason for listing them isn't based on teammate associations if I'm interpreting what you just said here correctly. But I'll put some time aside to investigate that in a little while if you like, it's just way too hot right now, I'm sorry.

@INH- I voted Dom long before any of that vote switching stuff went on. Does that mean anything for your read?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My reason for listing them isn't based on teammate associations if I'm interpreting what you just said here correctly. But I'll put some time aside to investigate that in a little while if you like, it's just way too hot right now, I'm sorry.

@INH- I voted Dom long before any of that vote switching stuff went on. Does that mean anything for your read?

We have to find two baddies, so your two baddie reads need to be compatible as team mates. I think it's important that you check that.

I revisited your question. I'd earlier asserted your recent contributions have been Dom-centric and that you hadn't been as involved in other conversations. I went back and counted your 50 posts prior to my making that assertion by topic:

Dom - 30
Role mechanics - 6
Self-defense - 2
Other - 12

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thanks for the reads by the way INH. I think I'm waffling as much as you are.

[Epignosis]

Hey INH: you were on the money with your Glorfindel read earlier than the rest of us. Is there anyone you feel is particularly likely to be his team mate?

With all of that counterwagon silliness, I can't help but think either Epi or Quin must have been a Glorf teammate trying one last tactic to divert the vote at the last second, and I'm coming out of Day 8 with a better impression of Dom.

Out of the two, I'd say Quin looks worse. Epi's been illogical and counter-intuitive for all of this game, his first civ iteration included. Hell, him acting irrationally is what caused Sloonei and Lorab to sharpen their pitchforks and point them in my direction.


(INCOMPLETE) RAINBOW LIST:

3J - OK, seriously. How the hell are you still alive? I could see Glorfindel, the affectionate chap he is, not wanting to NK you due to how big of a massive target you usually are, just out of sheer kindness and decency, the absolute madman. (Don't look too closely at the structure of that last sentence. Or really, any of my sentences.) But still, I honestly think there's like a 50% chance you're gonna check out after tonight.

Dom - This is more me not liking how people ganged up against him, and how his train almost overtook the Glorf one. Still not gonna clear him of suspicion anytime soon, but Day 8 really did make me reconsider my read of him.

Epignosis - Epi has two modes: Reasonable civ player whom I often agree with, (Red Vs. Blue) and aggressively irreverent intentionally frustrating iconoclast. (Psych, Mad Max) These two modes are often not alignment indicative, but I'm still slightly leaning towards civ on him, at least relative to the other three players below him.

Sloonei - Sloonei's the player I've gone back and forth on the most in my mind this game. There's just something about how he's playing this that rubs me the wrong way. Working hard to discredit people, making himself the arbiter on what posts are content worthy and what are not, asking leading questions by the dozen. About 50% of his gameplay seems to consist of calling other people's posts valueless, or just asking others questions, most of which are fishing for a specific thing that will confirm Sloonei's viewpoint. Ironically, I've had a hard time finding value in a fair amount of his posts. Now, before Sloonei starts interrogating me for the upteenth time asking for sources for my slanderous claims, let me state that I have no idea if Sloonei is civ or not, and I'm not sure if my disagreement with some of his methods means absolutely anything at all. Note the "50%" and "some of his methods." Sloonei has contributed lots of detailed analysis that I would deem full of value, and by no means do all of his posts fall into the categories that I described earlier. Plus, I'm not exactly certain if I can fit him into a partnership with anyone. He just doesn't fit into any of my mental categories. Hell, I go back and forth on whether or not I'm too biased to even have a single opinion on Sloonei! I can guess what Sloonei would think.

Aaaaand now it's too late and I have to go.

Lorab and Epi tomorrow, sorry.

You did me. How am I on tomorrow's schedule too?

[Quin]

Things Quin has never done in his life:

1. Vote for Glorfindel

That's right.

Who do you propose the final two baddies are? Both of them.

Dom and Epignosis. You asked me a similar question in the place of answering one I posed to you earlier, care to revisit it?

I wanted to lynch Dom over Glorfindel.

I had originally voted Glorfindel.

You think I would have given up a more valuable teammate?

Nah.

It is as much of a possibility as not.

[Quin]

My reason for listing them isn't based on teammate associations if I'm interpreting what you just said here correctly. But I'll put some time aside to investigate that in a little while if you like, it's just way too hot right now, I'm sorry.

@INH- I voted Dom long before any of that vote switching stuff went on. Does that mean anything for your read?

We have to find two baddies, so your two baddie reads need to be compatible as team mates. I think it's important that you check that.

I revisited your question. I'd earlier asserted your recent contributions have been Dom-centric and that you hadn't been as involved in other conversations. I went back and counted your 50 posts prior to my making that assertion by topic:

Dom - 30
Role mechanics - 6
Self-defense - 2
Other - 12

What did the 12 'other' posts entail? What is your conclusion after doing this exercise?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What did the 12 'other' posts entail? What is your conclusion after doing this exercise?

Isolated discussion for maybe one or two posts each of other topics. You touched on topics, but you didn't dig into them. My conclusion is that my original assertion was generally accurate: you've been much more focused on Dom lately than anything else.

Separately: when you talk to me, it looks like you're trying to get a read on me. Why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do Quin and Dom make sensible team mates?

I'm going to ignore everything over the last few phases where there has been clear suspicion exchanged between them. We all know that already. I'm going to focus on the earlier stages of the game.

Dom:

Dom didn't mention Quin in any meaningful way until Day 6:

Spoiler: show

Quinn is a liar.

This got their combat started. There's really nothing else to talk about.

~~~

Quin:

Spoiler: show

I'm reading into both Dom's and MP's interactions with each other right now. Up until the point where he suggests he's being buddied, I can understand his suspicion, but I don't think I agree with it anyway. True, MP doesn't really indicate his feelings about Dom before the list and they barely have any associations anyway, but Dom's taking that neutrality and tried to twist it so much it just looks like tunneling to me. I'd like to have a condensed version of your full case against MP, Dom.

Arguably something that looks good for MP is the reads he's made after Dom's accusation of buddying him and taking the cards that are convenient for him as opposed to for the town. I would expect a baddie in that situation to distance himself from Dom by making reads independent from Dom's train of thought. MP isn't doing that, I'm seeing legitimate attempts to read the people in his posts that show he's not trying to avoid that scrutiny. I think this interaction with Dom is civ-on-civ.

Quin provided some Day 3 thoughts about Dom's hyper-suspicion of MP and concluded that they looked civ-civ.

Dom is a GTH good read on Night 3

That's pretty much it before the dueling started on Day 6.

~~~

With this material alone, I'd say a team mate relationship is "plausible", but I do think there's an important disconnect when Dom pursues a "he's a liar" angle of attack. If Dom is bad in that scenario, then this looks like him trying to fend off a townie who is correct for reasons that Dom believes to be illogical -- known on some sites as CFTWR (caught for the wrong reasons). I think that's a decent indicator that Quin and Dom are not team mates.

Then, from there, we can examine their more recent combat and probably conclude that it's even less likely. I think I am content to eliminate the Dom/Quin team possibility from my list.

[Glorfindel]

3JI could see Glorfindel, the affectionate chap he is, not wanting to NK you due to how big of a massive target you usually are, just out of sheer kindness and decency, the absolute madman.

[Quin]

What did the 12 'other' posts entail? What is your conclusion after doing this exercise?

Isolated discussion for maybe one or two posts each of other topics. You touched on topics, but you didn't dig into them. My conclusion is that my original assertion was generally accurate: you've been much more focused on Dom lately than anything else.

Separately: when you talk to me, it looks like you're trying to get a read on me. Why?

More posts about a specific person are to be expected when you find a case that sticks better than the rest. Dom's my primary suspect. I don't think that my involvement in other arguments has been lacking, though. The only one I've consciously chosen to simply observe is the 'Glorfindel, are you bad' thing.

And: I'm not trying to read you. I don't have enough tinfoil at home to suspect you. You've got doubts and I'm pushing you so I can figure out what they are, I suppose they're leaving the same impression.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis: earlier you suggested I could remove you from my suspect pile even though you didn't think I ever would. This leads me to a question: what do you feel is working in your favor in this game which would warrant your removal from the suspect pool?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And: I'm not trying to read you. I don't have enough tinfoil at home to suspect you. You've got doubts and I'm pushing you so I can figure out what they are, I suppose they're leaving the same impression.

I encourage you not worry about my doubts. I'm going to have them regardless. At least one person who looks town isn't, and you're in that group. Help me find the baddies and it'll work out swell.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to just keep churning out massive posts because that's how I solve. I'm not asking anyone to read all of my bullshit, but please at least read the conclusions. They're always at the bottom. If you disagree with a conclusion then you can read the rest to see where I'm coming from.

[Dom]

Ask yourself this: why would I keep killing my own top suspects?

It's pretty classic WIFOM. The baddies also seem thoroughly terrified of shooting me again, so they have to shoot somebody. Why wouldn't you do that?

Because if you're right two of my team was on the chopping block and we systematically elminated every alternative.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do Sloonei and Dom make sensible baddie team mates?

Dom:

Spoiler: show

i don't think anything she's done is abnormal for her civvie game... maybe a better way of saying it is that nothing she's done has made me think she is bad

I don't disagree with this. What do you think of the case Neil Hartley made against her and the way he went about doing it?

Didn't convince me.
Don't necessarily think he's bad either.

Sloonei specifically prodded Dom for his thoughts on my case against Elohcin. It'd be an interesting thing if that sentence contains the names of three baddies.

Spoiler: show

I already said Sloonei was bad.

Why

He pinged me. I called him bad. He ignored it.

Go on....

This will be a few posts to create coherent posts.

Dom prodded Mac to expand on his suspicion of Sloonei.

Spoiler: show

We are currently in debate inception. Two people are "discussing" about their opinions of the actions of two other people who were arguing over eachother based off of something that happened awhile ago.

(But zeebs, I honestly have to go with JJJ on this whole spiel you two are having. Salty is much more believable than....well.....whatever point you're trying to make is.)

BUT ANYWAYS, THIS POST IS IRRELEVANT. MOVING ON

Let's move on to insertnamehere. What do you make of him?

think he's bad
Random accusations of forced votes is trying to set a panic in the civs.

Who you gonna vote for, Dom?

Probably MP.

Dom took advantage of Sloonei's prods a few times early in the game by making posts.

Spoiler: show

I just got home and I have two immediate thoughts:
1. Hi Quin
2. What's up with Dom?

You rang?

Two nothing questions.

Spoiler: show

in front of us?

I just got home and I have two immediate thoughts:
1. Hi Quin
2. What's up with Dom?

You rang?

Yes. You've made lots of short, 1-2 word answers and cast a total outlier vote yesterday. Now you've come in today with the same approach, directing all your attention on MP. But I'm not convinced. Because you're not really saying anything about him. Convince me.

Can you actually support this claim?
I don't think you can. I had a quiet day 2, but was quite detailed in this regard on Day 1. Don't cherrypick data to fit a mold.

Assertive dismissal by Dom of a Sloonei suspicion. If Dom is bad this is also a potential moment of CFTWR.

Spoiler: show

Anyway, I believe MP is trying to employ his RoTK gameplay without his meltdown(s) to try and win this game. i think he would have been more successful in that game without his meltdown(s).

He buddied me in that game. I was also role playing early in that game. He defended me against those claims. This is not something I see civ MP doing because he wouldn't see roleplaying as a sign of civilian play or baddie play. He would read it as a neutral write off. Therefore, I see MP employing the exact same strategy he used in the previous game where he was bad. Also he killed SVS in an almost identical part of the game.

I suppose what I want most is actual evidence that he's buddying you. It's possible I missed something, but all I can recall is that you accused him of buddying for listing you as a town read on his initial rainbow. That's inconclusive. You made a few points early about his "inconsistent voice", I think, but I haven't seen much development since then. Got anything new to add? He made a lot of posts at the end of the day yesterday.

TBH I would have to reread his posts. I am very tired and caught up on ~10 pages pretty quick.

Struggling to keep up with Sloonei's insistent prodding.

A couple moments of agreement with Sloonei

Spoiler: show

Dom once again sits out the lynch.

Hi there.
Excuse me?

You parked your vote on MP early on. Again.

Explain to me how that's sitting out.
I voted someone who I believed was baddie. I made multiple posts trying to convince others to vote with me.

This exchange looks rather authentic to me. Decent look for Sloonbeard.

There a less inspired exchange here about Dom's posts being short. Meh.

Spoiler: show

Sloonei who are you going to vote for?

if they die who are you going to vote for?

if they die who are you going to vote for?


Quinn: Citation needed that Mac didn't like me.

Dom's set of questions for Sloonei which later turned into a lengthy exchange between the two. Dom wasn't pleased with Sloonei's response, and accused him of hypocrisy and stuff. I'll fast-forward through all that.

Spoiler: show

If Sloonei and our civvie Savior are going to be this obtuse, then, yes lynch me because it won't matter what I say.

Quite frustrated.

Sloonei is a baddie read on Day 6

Spoiler: show

Note: Quinn never did the promised ISO on me.


Quin and Sloonei are bad. This is so clearly a coordinated attack on me right now.

JJJ pulls support and you do too. Just like how you only supported it once JJJ did show suspicion of me. You are bad. You are badder than bad. You and Quin are so transparent.

Dom expressed suspicion of both Quin and Sloonei when he was leading the lynch tally on Day 6, accusing both of them of coordinating against him as an easy target. I'll see about that when I look into them as a pair.

Spoiler: show

Sloonei, you follow JJJ around like a puppy-- why

This stuff looks non-team mate to me.

~~~

Sloonei:

Yellow on a Day 2 rainbow

Spoiler: show

I don't remember another game where Dom has been as quiet and unhelpful as he has been here. I remember like three of his posts. Where dat guy at?

Somewhat harsh language.

Yellow on a Night 3 rainbow

Spoiler: show

I ain't reading shit tonight, but if anyone's got questions for me I'm all ears until I pass out in a drunken stupor in an hour or two.

What's your gut read of Dom?

Indiglo?

I think Dom's good. He's just taking a tight lipped approach, is all.

Indi is I dunno. Gun to head, I'll call her scum. There has been frustration in her response to the conversation around her, but I could go either way on that. If she's town and came in to pre-existing suspicion, bummer. But if she's scum then that's an even bigger bummer, and I think she'd have even more cause for frustration. I'll need to do more digging on her before I can offer a confident read.

Sloonei called Dom good despite having commented repeatedly on how quiet he'd been. Very forgiving read.

Green on a Day 5 rainbow -- I note now that he had a lot of greens or better here.

After that: [insert Day 6 and beyond arguments]

~~~

Conclusion

There are some intriguing moments, but they are fleeting and minor. I am most interested in Dom's resistance to both Quin and Sloonei ("they're coordinating against me") on Day 6. That would be a unique way to treat a team mate. I'll lean toward these two not being the remaining baddie team.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ask yourself this: why would I keep killing my own top suspects?

It's pretty classic WIFOM. The baddies also seem thoroughly terrified of shooting me again, so they have to shoot somebody. Why wouldn't you do that?

Because if you're right two of my team was on the chopping block and we systematically elminated every alternative.

It's a fair point. One can still bring out the WIFOM, but you've at least forced me to talk about WIFOM which I hate doing. That's a positive.

Who do you lean towards thinking are the remaining two baddies? Both of them.

[Dom]

Ask yourself this: why would I keep killing my own top suspects?

It's pretty classic WIFOM. The baddies also seem thoroughly terrified of shooting me again, so they have to shoot somebody. Why wouldn't you do that?

Because if you're right two of my team was on the chopping block and we systematically elminatTBHed every alternative.

It's a fair point. One can still bring out the WIFOM, but you've at least forced me to talk about WIFOM which I hate doing. That's a positive.

Who do you lean towards thinking are the remaining two baddies? Both of them.

Epi landed on my suspicion list for trying to end the game by voting me instead of Glorfindel.
TBH I haven't analyzed interactions as well as you have, but I guess I could see three different pairings:
epig and lorab
epig and sloonei
epig and quin

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epi landed on my suspicion list for trying to end the game by voting me instead of Glorfindel.
TBH I haven't analyzed interactions as well as you have, but I guess I could see three different pairings:
epig and lorab
epig and sloonei
epig and quin

I can't recall if you're the type to try GTH reads, but if so this is a good time. Assume Epi is bad: GTH, who is his team mate? Even without the benefit of thorough analysis like my lifeless self is doing.

[Dom]

Epi landed on my suspicion list for trying to end the game by voting me instead of Glorfindel.
TBH I haven't analyzed interactions as well as you have, but I guess I could see three different pairings:
epig and lorab
epig and sloonei
epig and quin

I can't recall if you're the type to try GTH reads, but if so this is a good time. Assume Epi is bad: GTH, who is his team mate? Even without the benefit of thorough analysis like my lifeless self is doing.

I don't love doing it, but isn't that what I just did?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't love doing it, but isn't that what I just did?

You gave three names, I was hoping to narrow it to your top suspect -- if you had to guess right now period end of story, who?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do Epignosis/Zebra and Dom make sensible baddie team mates?

Dom:

Spoiler: show

Honestly I don't even think this Mac/Ricochet debacle is noteworthy.

What do you think is noteworthy?

INH and MP

And if you don't think that the Mac/Rico debacle is noteworthy then what are your reads on both of them?

slight civ on rico
slight civ on mac, but not as civ

so like
rico
mac

Zebra prods Dom about his view of the Mac/Rico exchanges, Dom gives some town reads.

Spoiler: show

Zebra is Mafia without doubt. 100% absolute bonafide guaranteed lock it down impossible to deny. Buddied me and was friendly when I was in agreeance, I make ONE post pointing out that I feel she is Mafia and now magically I am dark orange. Pfffft hide your colours better.

Face something substantial about her that isn't a BZZZ or face destruction.

Dom stood in Zebra's defense, sorta, when Mac was expressing suspicion.

Spoiler: show

Dom's taking a very minimalist approach to this game.

Not that this is a bad thing-- but I'm just curious why you think this.

You must be aware to some extent that your approach this game is narrower in focus than average. What happened to your suspicion of MP?

I wouldn't say that.
And I've addressed that. I don't think it is likely MP and Eloh were teammates.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

*snip*

@Mac
Anytime you want to tell me, Mac, why I dropped so low on your reads when you suspect Zebra for the exact same thing is a good thing!

Zebra suggested Dom's focus was narrow and Dom contested the notion. He then prompted Mac to explain his read of him relative to Zebra (I don't quite understand what Dom is saying here).

Spoiler: show

MovingPictures07

Why?

His interactions with Elohcin look the worst out of anyone, all of his responses to those who have voiced suspicion at ANY point in the game have been weak, and after the GTH reads he's probably the most likely player to have targeted JJJ.

Could you outline this. This was not the impression I had based on memory.

I'm not even fully caught up yet and I'm about to pass out. I will later.

Thank you.

Dom prompted Zebra to expand on her theory that MP tried to kill me.

Spoiler: show

Who should I vote for?

Dom in answer to your question ... I am not sure what is shocking to you?

....you have yet to name a reason why you think I'm bad. You flipped on me with very little reason. This is why you suspect Zebra. Are you going to tell me why you suspect me or are you going to be obtuse?

Here's this Mac/Zebra/Dom dynamic again. I'm confused again. I'm not sure if it's like a backwards version of a why me defense.

Spoiler: show

I am not reading 50 pages. I have two jobs and both involve computer screens.

I'm going to read the host posts and whatever you tell me is important.

Summarize for me, with links if you would like.

I will judge you each based on that. Go. Fresh mind. Blah blah blah.

i think indiglo is bad, i think i was wrong about inh and mp, and i don't feel great about lorab

Dom answered Epi's call for a summary, which he used to summarize his own current and past reads.

Spoiler: show

Mac is making me nervous.

How so?

I feel like he isn't really *participating* like civ Mac does.

Dom expands on his suspicion of Mac at Epi's request.

Spoiler: show

That's not what you asked.

And you didn't answer my question(s).

I have a funny way of saying things.

Yes I did.

Did you?
Why expect Epi to have a next suspect to vote when you didn't name one if Glorf was suddenly dead?

Dom's suspicion of Sloonei could be said to implicitly include a defense of Epi.

"lean civ" on a Day 6 reads list -- perhaps noteworthy that this was the only name he "leaned" civ for instead of just saying "civ". He similarly "leaned" bad on LoRab.

Spoiler: show

I think you tried to set Epi up for an easy lynch.
Epi and I lay out arguments against Mac. Epi was more vocal.
Mac is night killed.
Minutes later you come in, "HEY EPI WHO YA VOTING FOR NOW HUH HUH HUH?!"
It reeks. You evaded my questioning on the matter and you then contradicted yourself in your answers. "Glorfindel 'til I die" you say? Or change your vote like 4 times. You have zero principle and seem only interested in lynching someone, not a baddie.

Dom suggested Sloonei was trying to set Epi up for an easy lynch (an assertion I'd question just because we're talking about Epi here -- is that ever an easy lynch?).

Spoiler: show

I don't care about Jay's case against me.

Neither did the Warden. He cared about evading lynches. It's an understandable mindset, because a baddie has no real reason to care about being suspected -- only receiving votes.

Do civs really care about being suspected?

I like a certain level of suspicion.

Defensive of Epi again.

Spoiler: show

Because...I believe she would have killed Wilgy a long time ago were she bad. Therefore, I don't think she's bad. It isn't a feeling. It's my opinion.

You know why I'm asking you this, so please just answer the question and spare me these weasel responses. Why do you believe a bad LoRab would have killed DrWilgy a long time ago?

I thought it was obvious. Wilgy was gung-ho about lynching Lorab for a while there. Lorab doesn't bullshit around. She's good on your team. She snuffs the person suspecting her and twirls her way out of it.

This I'll buy.

Supports Epi's town read of LoRab.

Spoiler: show

CUNDALINI: A loyal member of Toecutter's gang and lucky too. He will survive his first brush with death (lynch or NK) but his vote will not count after that. He takes over if both Toecutter and Bubba are dead.

If Glofindel is bad, he's inert. Useless at this stage. He can be left alone for now.

If he's good (somehow), then lynching him is a bad deal.

Someone tell me I'm wrong about this. I'd rather lynch people who have votes that count.

I'm inclined to move my vote.

This is a smelly post.

Go on.

"Let's lynch someone who isn't my teammate!"

Dom turned against Epi on Day 8 when Epi suggested lynching him instead of Glorfindel.

~~~

Zebra:

Zebra's only early mention of Dom was to agree with his non-suspicion of Elohcin.

Spoiler: show

For a while I thought Dom was being narrow and stubborn in this game but he's actually one of the few with his priorities straight.

Zebra supported Dom on Night 3 for his suspicion of MP.

Green read on a Night 3 rainbow / GTH town read

~~~

Epignosis:

Names Dom as the most likely team mate of Glorfindel on Day 8

Spoiler: show

CUNDALINI: A loyal member of Toecutter's gang and lucky too. He will survive his first brush with death (lynch or NK) but his vote will not count after that. He takes over if both Toecutter and Bubba are dead.

If Glofindel is bad, he's inert. Useless at this stage. He can be left alone for now.

If he's good (somehow), then lynching him is a bad deal.

Someone tell me I'm wrong about this. I'd rather lynch people who have votes that count.

I'm inclined to move my vote.

He didn't explicitly say it, but I think his intended message here was that he wanted to vote Dom instead of Glorfindel. If Dom and Epignosis are both bad, then this means Epi was promoting the lynch of a team mate who can vote over one who cannot. This would seem strategically dubious, especially in an environment where a Glorfindel lynch was the easiest possible result. If we're to make this assertion, I think we have to judge it this way: Epi didn't think the idea would hold and suggested it anyway.

When I read this post and think about both of them as potential baddies, I have an easier time seeing a bad Epi/good Dom dynamic than a bad/bad dynamic. In the former scenario, it's easy to understand: Epi is trying to force a mislynch and win the game in one move.

~~~

Conclusion

I think a team mate relationship here is "plausible", but I won't say it's very compelling. Basically, Dom and Zebra defended each other a few times. Epignosis's (if he's bad) attempt to lynch him was either a blatant distance or a blatant attempt to win the game immediately. I kind lean toward the latter.

And this means I am underwhelmed by every possible baddie dynamic featuring Dom. Somehow this doesn't surprise me. Of all the Dom possibilities, this one is the most believable.

[Sloonei]

Loosely in response to Jay's interactive read on me.

My read on Glorfindel kind of hinged on a couple of different theories that came up at different times. I gave him a town read early on based largely on the point Jay made here:

Generic JJJ post about baddie interactions -- Elohcin and Glorfindel

Elohcin:

Spoiler: show

@ Quin - Yes, you found the post I was referring to.

@ Sloonei - If you are trying to read more on a person that you could be troubled about, you don't make it obvious. Duh!

The players I will be looking at today are:
Mac - simply b/c other players are finding him suspicious and I seem to be missing the hype. I need to reread him.
Lorab - b/c (no offence) I always see her playstyle as sneaky and bad and I need to decide if it's real or just my predisposition.
Quin - b/c he replaced a non-participant before replacing Glor who also said he cannot participate. I imagine a baddie would be replaced before a civ.
and
....not sure who else atm.


I agree with Lorab and Sloon about Glor. I think we ought to see more of him before we decide to boot him out with allthe RL stuff going on there.

The highlighted portion is of interest. She seemed to think Quin replaced Glorfindel and not sanmateo. Perhaps it was fake; I kind of doubt it. Based on Quin replacing in before indiglo did, Elohcin painted Quin as bad ("baddies replace before civs"), associating Quin with the Glorfindel slot. Thus, she was calling Glorfindel bad in this post with the following discrepancies at hand:

1. The premise is already dubious. There's no good reason to think a baddie had to be replaced before a townie between Quin and indiglo.
2. Quin didn't replace Glorfindel.'

I get the feeling this moment says a lot about indiglo and Glorfindel. My instinct right now is to say it looks good for Glorfindel and bad for indiglo. This isn't the first time someone has suggested that a baddie is usually a higher priority replacement, which leaves Elohcin with an opportunity to play into the fact that it went the opposite way in this game. I also think she'd be more aware of who was being replaced if it was a member of her team.

I agreed with this interpretation and it influenced my thoughts moving forward, until Night 5 when Epignosis 2.0 came along and shared a new theory that changed the way I viewed that entire interaction:

Spoiler: show

going for self preservation here...

What's ya beef with the bird with teeth?

Nome...it was one of two
..him or Mac. No need.

Votes are changeable and the day is barely half over. This is not the time to be casting preservation votes. Vote wherever your suspicions are!

Oh my goodness! I was thinking days were 24 hours for some reason! I thought I got my vote in like 3 minutes before the bell!!! I wake up this morning looking hard for a host post and everything. GAH! I'm gettin' OLD. Someone save me!!

Okay, I have like 2 pages to catch up on. I am busy today, but I will get there eventually.

This thing here.

If Elohcin had a decent team, she should have known when the Day phase ended. I'm reading this as genuinely clueless, and not feigned. So what does that mean?

Elohcin loves BTSC, and she loves talking with her team about anything and everything. She's a talker.

Couple that post with the following:

I honestly don't know what to say in defence. There is nothing to defend against. Your role playing or lack thereof confuses me.

going for self preservation here...

And what you have is an indication that her team wasn't on the same page Day 1. Consider:

1. Eloh genuinely didn't know the Day phase was 48 hours.
2. That means nobody on her team told her / they weren't focused on Day 1 strategy
3. Eloh ends up voting Scotty instead of holding out and making it a tie. I think that's significant. If she was that interested in saving herself, she only needed to vote last minute against someone with one vote and make it a however-many-way tie, and there would likely have been a no-lynch. She didn't do that. She went for Scotty.

With this in mind, Elohcin's forgetfulness regarding Glorfindel was totally flipped on its head. Elohcin's mistaken belief that Glorfindel should be replaced seems more like the result of his being absent from the private scum chat, rather than her being ignorant of his involvement in the game. I explained my thinking in this post, and after a little while this opened the floodgates for my Glorf suspicion. As I am looking back on it now, I would also say it's a strong case for Epignosis/zebra being town as well. He introduced an entirely new and unique perspective on Eloh at a time when he really did not need to, and it totally changed the way I saw her in this game, at least. He does go on to spin this case against BWT/indiglo, though, which takes my town read down a notch.

But this post is about Glorfindel. I don't know how else to respond the interactive read other than to show how and why my thought process changed throughout the game. I hope that shed some light on things.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do Sloonei and Quin make sensible team mates?

Sloonei:

Declined to include sanmateo in his Day 2 rainbow due to a lack of posts

Explains to Quin the arguments that were occurring between himself, MP, Mac, INH, Zebra, and I, and provides reads for all names.

Spoiler: show

My only gripe is that there's no explicit indication that getting a read of 3J is her goal. Her dialogue with Jay after that initial post is lackluster. The third set of posts you quoted, especially, it's all just self-defense. I think that her final 'I think you're civ' statement is backpedaling, though I'm not sure how to read that.


@Everyone: I've stopped my catch-up at page 20, so if there's anything in the past 10 pages you want my opinion on I'll have a look at it, but I think I can best gather my thoughts now that I'm able to actually to insert myself.

To be fair, if she was trying to get a read on him she wouldn't explicitly say "Hey, I'm just doing this to get a read on you." That defeats the purpose. But I agree that there's not much in there that looks like she's making such an effort. It still looks more to me like she saw something that stood out glaringly at the start of the game and picked up on it as a potential suspicion. I wouldn't necessarily think this to be dishonest if not for her claim just now that she was doing this to get a read on Jay.

Neutral chatter about their reads on Elohcin.

Spoiler: show

Quin, how caught up are you? Would you feel comfortable giving us any sort of list of reads or general thoughts at this point?

Generic Sloonei prod.

Spoiler: show

I'm still most confident about Elohcin, but I also do not like the way LoRab immediately tried to spin SVS's death into something involving Eloh. It seemed like an unnatural response to me. I'd probably put her back near the top of my suspects list again.

I see where LoRab was coming from and I don't suspect her for it. LoRab's argument seemed to be based on the idea that someone was being framed, though I agree that she might be jumping the gun on that aspect. Even so, since Epignosis' death reflected on Eloh the most in that aspect, I can understand why LoRab would be guided down that road first.

I suppose I should loosen up on this LoRab theory since everyone else seems to be telling me it's not as much of a stretch as I think it is. It's just that my mind did not go anywhere near "they're framing Elohcin" when I saw SVS was killed, and it was bizarre to see somebody else's mind go there immediately. But that could be my own fault.

If your mind isn't going in the same direction as everyone else then by no means should you just retract your suspicion. What else about LoRab do you dislike? Is there anything in particular you do like?

This was my main reason for suspecting her. I'm still iffy on her for sure. I might ISO her, but I'm also gonna have one eye on a baseball game for the rest of the night so no promises.

Neutral chatter about Sloonei's suspicion of LoRab. This time they disagree. If they're team mates, then during this phase of the game they did a great job with this kind of conversation -- it looks very pretty.

Spoiler: show

Quin! Your vote's on Elohcin. Why do you hate my case against LoRab?

Assume they're both bad here. Translate the post:

Team mate! You're vote's on our other team mate. Why do you hate my case against this townie?

On one hand I want to say that's just not a thing, but I'm also a bit eeked by Sloonei's playful language.

Spoiler: show

Quin! Your vote's on Elohcin. Why do you hate my case against LoRab?

I still see a train of thought that would bring him to see a second frame job as a possibility. That much of your case I hate. I don't hate the rest of it, but Eloh is still my biggest scum read.

You've talked about it plenty, but I don't have time to read through all of your posts right now. What's the cliffnotes version of your case against Eloh?

Eloh started the day claiming that she found 3J's roleplay suspicious, and much later claimed that it was all in an attempt to provoke a response. The dialogue that she and 3J had after the initial accusation didn't reflect that at all, instead on a few occasions she was the one defending herself against him. You can see MP's big batch of spoiler posts for those. I also pointed out that her vote wasn't appropriate for self-preservation because her options were between Mac or an inactive BWT. A Mac vote was more likely to take off given the circumstances, so seeing her vote for the latter is still slightly haunting.

Is your last point that you don't think her Day 1 "self-preservation" vote was an earnest attempt at self-preservation? If that is the case, why would that reflect poorly on her?

What bothers me is the person who she chose to vote. I'm trying to avoid relying on hindsight, but I just think that the Rico/Mac argument made it more likely that out of Mac and BWT, the former would be lynched.

I still am not sure why this would make Elohcin look bad, though. If the argument is that she was not actually trying to save herself with that vote, then you're suggesting she was comfortable being lynched. If that is the case, what is her scum motive for this?

They did a ton of bouncing thoughts off of each other. It still looks pretty.

Quin is dark green in a Night 3 rainbow.

Spoiler: show

Here for an hour, yo. I voted indiglo.

I'm not seeing some of your case, zebra. When you first bring up his rainbow lists you claim that it's suspicious that he's only sorted it into three categories as though there's some sort of strong civ/strong bad quota that he's expected to meet. I think that's a poor case. That was a Day 1 list, too. I can understand why it's not so thorough.

However, I agree that it's odd to suggest that the people he's put at the bottom of his 5-tier list are 'not particularly crazy suspicious'. I'd be more inclined to believe it if he didn't bother adding a strong bad tier.

Why indiglo instead of Scotty? They have essentially the same case aginst them.

Sloonei wants Answers®.

"Surprised" about Scotty's Day 5 baddie reads on him and Quin

Spoiler: show

Who are you gonna vote for, Mr Quin?

indiglo. What's your take on the case against him?

I've been on the fence about her most of the time. I see the case against her but I've had a hard time deciding whether or not her frustration comes from a townie or a scum point of view. Her vote today is the strongest evidence that it's a scum perspective that I've seen all game, and that has put me over the edge in terms of suspecting her. I am fully willing to vote for her today. I just wish either her or Wilgy were here to address some concerns, as they seem to be everyone's top suspects.

Even if we are right about those two, there still remains a third bad guy who we'll need to find.

Why does her Wilgy vote seem bad to you? Is it the choice or the lack of justification behind it?

As for her frustration, I initially wanted to read it as civ. The fact that her personality did a complete 180 is proof enough for me that the frustration was genuine, at least. But now I don't think I can justify civ reading it when she's not given me a more concrete reason to read her as good.

It was the lack of justification. The case around her is largely built on inactivty, and I think that if she was town she could/would have taken the easy route by simply producing as much content as she's able. But she has not, and this leads me to feel like she's lacking motivation, and that this lack of motivation results from her feeling like she subbed into a lost cause. Her vote today was nothing but a bare minimum effort driveby vote, which suggeste even more than she's lacking motivation. I think that mindset is more likely in a baddie than a townie.

More pretty bouncing of thoughts.

Dark green in a Day 5 rainbow

Spoiler: show

Epi, who you gonna vote for now that Mr Mac is dead?

Quin, who's your supposed 3 person scum team?

Generic Sloonei prod.

GTH town on Day 6

Light green on a Day 6 rainbow / Again later on a pseudo-rainbow / Again later, still Day 6, Sloonei is a Skittle Master in this game

Spoiler: show

Quin, your vote is currently worthless. I suggest moving it.

Harder poke.

Spoiler: show

How do we feel about Quin?

Generic Sloonei mass prompt.

Positive but somewhat waffly assessment of Quin on Day 7

Blah blah blah from there it's been more interaction between two people in the PoE trying to work out of that position.

~~~

Quin:

GTH good on Day 3

Spoiler: show

Sloonei has votes. Not cool. I'm breaking the tie.

Defended Sloonei with his voting power on Day 6.

There's plenty more, but most of it has already been covered in the Sloonei section above.

~~~

Conclusion

Technically speaking it's possible that they're baddie team mates. There's no hard evidence against the notion. I don't see any good, interesting reason to say they're team mates though. I'm not inspired by this analysis.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm glad I never have to ISO myself. That's how it feels when review Sloonei.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do Sloonei and Epignosis / Zebra make sensible baddie team mates?

Sloonei:

Spoiler: show

Throwing a vote on Scotty.

Suspicious of Glorf for voting in the poll but not commenting.

Glorfindel? More like Skaglorfindel.

zebra is getting my vote until she tells us why she's eyeballing this Scotty post.

I have not seen a committed and engaged MP in a long long time, so I don't know quite how to read him at this time, but a few of his posts did have me scratching my chin a little.

This one, for instance:

Oh, and I'm tentatively feeling good about zebra as well. Her willingness to throw a vote on Scotty for a perceived moment seemed natural and not forced.

Not feeling those bad vibes from anyone just yet, but I'm sure they will come.

Polar opposite response to mine. I see no reason why zebra throwing minimal-effort poo at Scotty on Day is a town-tell.

Voting Ricochet. If anyone's here, ask me questions and I'll ask you questions back. Let's generate some content. Deal?

Where do you read me zeebs?

Null, but GTH good because with what content you have, you haven't given me a reason to think otherwise. Where do you read me?

Do you usually take an "innocent until proven guilty" approach to players?

Very early poop flinging. Decent look.

lol minimal effort poo

Spoiler: show

Voting Ricochet. If anyone's here, ask me questions and I'll ask you questions back. Let's generate some content. Deal?

Where do you read me zeebs?

Null, but GTH good because with what content you have, you haven't given me a reason to think otherwise. Where do you read me?

Do you usually take an "innocent until proven guilty" approach to players?

Spoiler: show

You can deconstruct any suspicion or accusation by saying that you don't see why it's suspicious even after the person elaborates on it infinitely. I don't have time for it.

"Let's not analyze the things that I'm saying and just move on."

It continued into Night 1.

Yellow on a Day 2 rainbow

Spoiler: show

They didn't spend the whole night accusing him, and the original accusation (from INH) came very shortly after the Day 1 deadline, presumably before a kill would have been decided upon. When Epi continually responded (much to their frustration), what choice would they have had but to continue engaging him? If they went silent it would have looked like hollow accusations. Plus, they get standard townie points.

This is where I see mental gymnastics. I think you're making a logical leap to assume Zebra and INH didn't want Epignosis to respond to them at all, and when his responses were curt it sort of left them with no choice but to press the issue (if they're townies).

Even if you believe Epignosis did nothing suspicious, would you at least agree that his answers to those two weren't substantive?

link: those are the people. Them peeps.

I do not think they did not want Epi to respond to them. I just think that it's not safe to assume they're town because they carried on a conversation with him during the night. Once INH had accused Epi, the discussion about it would carry on as long as Epi was engaging them. And it did. They lost interest when they weren't getting the answers they wanted out of him. His answers were not substantive, no, but I don't see that as being out of the ordinary for Epi. He saw it as a ridiculous accusation and responded ridiculously.

But anyway, the content of their (INH & zebra's) responses to Epi isn't a concern to me. I am only trying to refute the claim that they get a town lean for accusing Epi during the night that he was killed. I don't think the actual events of the night are substantive enough to do that.

Fought off the town credit I was willing to give INH and Zebra for the Epi 1.0 kill.

Spoiler: show

Sloonei, what's your immediate reaction to Zebra and I having a little spat?

Town/Town. I largely agree with your stance but I don't think zebra is spouting nonsense and I'm used to this level of stubbornness from a town zebra.

Town read on Zebra after her extensive argument with me on Day 2.

Spoiler: show

And, that said, let me make it clear that despite agreeing with Jay extensively this phase (which I didn't really feel so much during d1), I still disagree with him on the level of confidence in my town read of Rico, among other things. I have him as a slight town read for a reason; he's certainly not my most confident read.

This looks like you're setting up to not be a primary target after the baddie Rico flip.

If that was what I am doing, which I am not, then surely I'm not doing a good job of it, precisely due to your post right here. If that's how you interpret my behavior, so be it. I don't know Rico's alignment. I'm defending him for clearly stated reasons and my perspective. I have no knowledge of anyone's alignment but my own.

zebra does raise a good point about your motive here. Why take the time, moments before Ricochet flips, to announce that he's not actually a strong town read? He's going down no matter what. Why make the clarification then?

Supports Zebra on a Day 2 point against MP.

Green on a Day 2 pseudo-rainbow

Spoiler: show

Oooooooh, I can vote for Quin OR sanmateo?

linki - I don't know you tell me.

You literally just told me and everyone to ask you questions and this is your response?

Sloonei is bugged.

Green on a Night 3 rainbow

Spoiler: show

I like some of your points, zebra, but I also flat out disagree with several others. You definitely have tunnel vision working on MP right now. That is not neccesarily a bad thing. I can't wait to see how massive MP's response is. I assume it will need its own thread.

Sloonei wasn't entirely supportive of Zebra's mega-case against MP.

Light green on a Day 5 rainbow

Spoiler: show

Is Wilgy still a near-consensus suspect as well? Because that approach worked out so well today.

What's the approach and why do you have a problem with it?

The approach of picking off the player who is most widely suspected. I am cautious because we just used it to lynch a townie.

Recency bias.

It's a thing.

Indeed. I suppose I just want Wilgy's name to be in the discussion tomorrow, but I don't want it to be the only one we talk about.

Neutral exchange. Looking back I think Epi looks meh here on his own.

Spoiler: show

Epi, who you gonna vote for now that Mr Mac is dead?

I don't know. I hate feeling confident about something and it blowing up.

Why are you asking me this?

Did you think I wouldn't ever get around to finding a different person to vote for?

You just got my nod of disapproval.

I am asking because it's quiet in here. I want someone to say something. Thanks for saying something.
So are you looking at me now? No one's really made any case against me yet, just minor grumblings here and there.

Epi and Sloonei start to be at odds after Sloonei asked him who he'd vote for in place of the deceased Mac. This looks pretty non-team mate.

Spoiler: show

What value do these questions serve?

That should be self-evident. Why do you need to ask this?

Sometimes I ask things to get a response, not because I can't figure out the answer on my own. But also it seemed like his goal was to pick on me rather than to get any game-relevant information out of me. I could be salty and mistaken.

What do you think of this?

It's something I'm considering but I'm not sure I agree with it yet. I felt like Epi was being sincere with me yesterday. I could very well be wrong and I'm still waiting for him to deliver on the promise of reading my posts more closely.

I started to sour on the Epi/Zebra slot on Day 6 and Sloonei was slow to accept.

Sloonei has to explain to Epignosis that I really, actually suspected him -- looks non-team mate to me

Red in a Day 6 rainbow

~~~

Conclusion

I frankly don't feel the need to continue. I don't think they look like team mates at all.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This means I don't think Sloonei makes a sensible team mate of anyone. He's town. Returning to my prior list that I've been working through:

Epignosis/Zebra and Sloonei

Epignosis/Zebra and Quin -- reasonably plausible

Epignosis/Zebra and Dom -- reasonably plausible

Sloonei and Quin

Sloonei and Dom

Quin and Dom

Epi is bad. Lynch him immediately. I'll continue to think about Dom and Quin.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've decided this is less compelling to me than the notion that Dom and Epignosis used the Day 8 vote to try a last-minute distance.

I think the baddies are Epignosis and Dom. I think Epignosis should be lynched first. That's all for tonight. I hope y'all will read my conclusions at least to see how I arrived at this answer. If there are significant disagreements, I really hope to hear them. This could easily be the night I finally die.

[Quin]

Spoiler: show

THE MP BEING PROBLEMATIC AF COMPILATION POST

It pains me to disparage a lady, but I do believe Elohcin's response to that random vote from her husband was a bit lifeless. Considering she is here to see Neil Hartley live and in the flesh, I know she isn't that bored. The look on her face, it's giving Neil the wrong impression.

I know nothing of this show, so JJJ is confusing me a bit. I may vote him. It seems a little 'trying too hard' to come in here role play like that right off the bat. Like he is trying to win us over. What do y'all think? And this is not WIFOM talking...whatever that is. I never understood that term completely. but you all seem to use it for when you go after someone who has gone after you? I don't know.

I'll hold off on voting for now.

The "trying too hard" argument bothers me, but I'm not sure I find you suspicious for it. I just don't agree. Also, Neil Hartley has nothing to do with Mad Max.

I know nothing of this show, so JJJ is confusing me a bit. I may vote him. It seems a little 'trying too hard' to come in here role play like that right off the bat. Like he is trying to win us over. What do y'all think? And this is not WIFOM talking...whatever that is. I never understood that term completely. but you all seem to use it for when you go after someone who has gone after you? I don't know?

What a wild post, madame! How would you feel if Neil Hartley told you that you "tried too hard" to find something negative to say about his roleplay! I think you might be bad news, and I'm gonna inform security to keep an eye on your table.

Elohcin

How much of this serious?

I know I've already brought up these first three posts but no one responded and later Dom asked me for some elaboration on my MP read so they can't not be in this post. I mean these alone are, or at least should be, pretty damning knowing how things played out. MP begins his Eloh read fabrication with literally just a ponder smiley, the most obvious "I'm just going to go wherever town goes with this" reaction you could possibly have. It's especially irreconcilable with the MP-is-civ narrative because civ MP rarely responds to posts with just a smiley, especially one as vague and open to different trajectories as the pondering one. MP almost always delivers his definitive thoughts on anything and everything he addresses, more often than not going into more detail than most right from the get go. For him to not even say whether he agrees, disagrees, or is undecided on the matter of Eloh's lifelessness and instead to deliver a reaction that could interpreted as all three, or at the time even suspicion of JJJ rather than Eloh, is pretty bad. And that's just the first post.

What in the name of the piano is up with that second post? The waffliness of it is just scratching the surface, there's a glaring contradiction there that PROVES MP was fabricating his read of Eloh at least at the time. I've fabricated reads before as a civ myself just to not get lynched, so I'm not saying that MP is confirmed bad because he has a confirmed fake read. If something bothers you about another player alignment-wise, then of course you find them suspicious for it. If you don't find the other player suspicious for it, then it bothers you in a way that is unrelated to the game, which obviously isn't the case here, given that what's apparently bothersome to MP here is the "trying too hard" argument. How would that argument go about bothering someone in a way that isn't suspicious? MP goes on to say that he just doesn't "agree"....what???? If you simply don't agree with an argument, then you disagree with it. You don't say that it bothers you, unless it bothers you by peaking your suspicion. To make matters worse, MP outright say that he didn't find Eloh suspicious for it, he said that he fucking wasn't sure if he found her suspicious for it. Are you serious?

And then there's the icing on the cake which is the third post. After two posts that express undefined, neutral, and contradictory views on Eloh, he then asks JJJ how much of his post expressing suspicion of her is serious. This clearly implies that MP was taken aback by JJJ's post, but why would he be? Beyond the fluff of the role-playing, there's nothing in that post to suggest that JJJ is kidding around with what he was saying there, so why would it produce a reaction like the one MP had?

Seriously people, pretend that you know that MP is good and then read those three posts. Then pretend that you know that MP is bad and then read those three posts. Knowing Eloh's flip, which hypothesis makes more sense?

Oh but I'm just getting started. Those were just the posts that I had already quoted earlier.

going for self preservation here...

We have 24 hours (or had as of the time of your post) in this game. Why self-preservation so early?

I believe that Eloh's Day 1 self-preservation vote was a co-ordinated effort between her and MP to lower suspicions of both of them, for Eloh in the short-term and for MP in the long-term. Here me out please. When Elohcin posted that she was voting out of self-preservation, the next minute JJJ responded by asking what was her beef with bwt, her vote of choice. Between that time and MP's post here quite a few players posted and none of them thought to ask her why she would make a self-preservation vote/post so early. Only MP had that thought. Eloh's self-preservation vote was meant to look too risky or clumsy for a baddie and then MP was meant to come in, call it out, and earn them both town credit WHILE distancing from each other WHILE low key scum-reading each other. MP being the one to call out Eloh's self-preservation vote also helped him later on when his read of Eloh became stronger and stronger in the baddie direction, and I'll get into just how arbitrary it was that it went that way and not the opposite.

MovingPictures07
Scotty
sprityo

Elohcin

I'm orange!

In another peculiarly out-of-character moment for MP, he responds to a full rainbow rankings list from JJJ not commenting on any of the reads but his own, and even then it's not to challenge JJJ's baddie-leaning read of him but just to say that he's happy that he's orange. Pure fluff from a player that again, is not only not known for fluff but is well-known for being a steamroller of hard content. This is clearly because Elohcin was JJJ's only red read and he wanted to draw attention away from it without actually confronting it and risking revealing that they are teammates. You know he was nervous about that possibility because the risk wasn't even that high on Day 1 and he still avoided having a concrete read on Elohcin himself like the plague, and his only comments both referencing her and the ones addressed to her allow for complete ambiguity.

Case in point: his very next post regarding Elohcin.

How much of this serious?

All of it

Got it, thanks. Just wasn't fully able to discern due to the roleplay (which I'm cool with and enjoying, btw).

What's the point of getting confirmation that a post was serious if you're not going to make any comment regarding the post's content? It would be one thing if MP didn't comment on the post whatsoever, but for him to ask how much of it serious, get confirmation that the entirety of it is serious, but then to not have anything to say about it or any questions or clarifications or anything, looks really, really bad, especially in the context of MP's playstyle which again, normally isn't as fluffy and vague as all of his Eloh-related posts up to this point have been.

a2thezebra
Dom
MacDougall
LoRab
Neil Hartley
Ricochet
Sloonei
S~V~S

birdwithteeth11
DrWilgy
sanmateo

Elohcin
Epignosis
Glorfindel
insertnamehere
motel room
Scotty
sprityo

Here is MP's first rainbow list. With the names in each category (of which there are only three and none of them are red) being in alphabetical order, that basically renders this list pointless which is all the worse factoring in the reluctance to deliver Day 1 content on Eloh. Think about it; this list is literally eight townies, three nulls, and seven ehhh-kinda-suspicious-but-not-really-but-we-shall-sees. That's bad. If MP was a civ trying to genuinely contribute, why would he go to the trouble of making a rainbow list that doesn't offer any more real information than a post merely naming two or three reads at most would? Simple, it's a replication of contribution rather than town-motivated contribution.

I'm sorry I just have to emphasize that so far we've gone through seven posts that either reference Eloh or go out of their way not to reference Eloh, one of them being a fucking rainbow rankings list, and we still know essentially nothing about what MP's read of Eloh was at this point in the game. And no, being one of seven orange reads on Day 1 means approximately jack shit. That could have and would have changed if suspicions of Eloh had decreased after Day 1 rather than increased.

I seriously thought his actions were a joke or trying to get a rise out of me or something. I think my reaction was what would determine his thoughts of me. Too bad I had to react after midnight after several drinks (when I don't drink often at all). It probably is what started me off on the wrong track for this game.

Now, as for my vote today (Day 1 ) I can see where scotty can be bad. I am moving my vote there. I don't want to vote BWT if I don't have to. Hate to lose a possible civ position even if it's a quiet one.

You can see it? What about the Scotty case is convincing to you?

I'm not even sure what MP meant by the first question and frankly I don't think he did either. Eloh said that she could see where Scotty could be bad, and he asks her if she can see that? Unless he's referencing something else? The problem here is that MP's indecisiveness is being reflected on his interaction with Eloh here. Instead of asking her about his read of her or her read of him, he asks her about Scotty. The second question makes sense because it's asking for elaboration, but it just makes the first question look even more forced and out of place.

Rainbow #2

a2thezebra
Dom
MacDougall
motel room
Sloonei
S~V~S

LoRab
Neil Hartley

birdwithteeth11
DrWilgy
sanmateo

Ricochet
Scotty

Elohcin
Epignosis
Glorfindel
insertnamehere
sprityo

While five categories is much better than three, this reads list still puts each category in alphabetical order (meaning there's really only five actual rankings) and there's still no red reads. It helps that Elohcin is in the bottom five but in a way that makes it worse because MP's apparent growing confidence in his baddie read of Eloh is only reflected in his rainbow rankings lists and not the rest of his content. But where MP really digs his own grave is in his very next post where he makes the mistake of elaborating on nothing. I'll just skip to the juice.

- The five remaining names in my moderate mafia list are not particularly crazy suspicious, but I am not inspired to believe any of them are town at this time based on what they have posted.

If this isn't the nail in the coffin then I don't know what is. How the hell is the bottom five names in your MODERATE mafia list not even "particularly crazy suspicious"? First of all, what a hilarious phrase. Not. Particularly. Crazy. Suspicious. Tell me MP, what does "not particularly crazy suspicious" mean exactly? Are those five names not particularly crazy suspicious because they're just plain crazy suspicious without the particularly? Are they not particularly crazy suspicious because none of them are crazy to the best of our knowledge? Are they not particularly crazy suspicious because all of them are particularly crazy yet none of them are suspicious?

My point is that MP is saying nothing by saying everything, and this is his prime strategy as a baddie. When you're flooded with his content in any game you're going to get a lot of concrete (hard reads) and a lot of ambiguity (softer and/or less consistent reads) but what you're not going to get - unless he's bad - is fake content. That's what his first two rainbow rankings posts are and he just illustrated as much himself. It would be like if I did a rainbow rankings list with just two categories: strong town reads and slight town reads. No mafia reads, no neutral reads, no null reads. Just strong town and light town. I could rank them all in order most town to least town, but they're all town reads, so it wouldn't mean shit. But in reality what MP did here is even worse than the scenario I just described, because MP only ranked the different sections of his first two lists by fucking alphabetical order. All of this could have been redeemed if MP delivered some hard scum reads, or at least left it open for others to assume that his bottom reads were his hard scum reads, but he had to go and clarify that not even his bottom reads he found particularly crazy suspicious. That means that someone at the time of the second rainbow list could have asked him who he would most likely to vote for, and if he had answered them that would've been more of a real contribution than his two rainbow lists combined.

And just to keep things from being misunderstood, I do believe MP is contributing. I just don't think it's civ-minded contribution. I think he's bad.

wow.... tbh... this is pretty well done tbh[/quote]

Here's a Dom/zebra post you missed, 3J. I could say that Dom's response to such a huge case was underwhelming. He doesn't point to any specific thing he likes, just stating that he does. He doesn't express any specific thoughts about MP after this post either. I think MP died shortly after though, so it's something that's a bit obscure in hindsight. At face value though, I would put points towards a Dom/Epi team.

[Quin]

Dom's reply is whited out at the very bottom. In case it's hard to read he said:

wow.... tbh... this is pretty well done tbh

[Quin]

Spoiler: show

Mac is making me nervous.

How so?

I feel like he isn't really *participating* like civ Mac does.

This conversation was short lived. Epi didn't inquire any further at this point, even though he had literally just asked for cases and things. I can see a potential teammate relationship here. It's creates a dialogue between them both without it evolving into anything. He votes Mac shortly after this, going as far as to declare him his #2 scum read.

[Quin]

Because...I believe she would have killed Wilgy a long time ago were she bad. Therefore, I don't think she's bad. It isn't a feeling. It's my opinion.

You know why I'm asking you this, so please just answer the question and spare me these weasel responses. Why do you believe a bad LoRab would have killed DrWilgy a long time ago?

I thought it was obvious. Wilgy was gung-ho about lynching Lorab for a while there. Lorab doesn't bullshit around. She's good on your team. She snuffs the person suspecting her and twirls her way out of it.

This I'll buy.

This is support of a pure meta read. I do not know if this is characteristic of Dom. If it is, I have no qualms, but if it isn't, I'd say this looked like half-baked support.

[Quin]

I acknowledge the irony in questioning Dom's meta in regards to supporting meta reads.

[Quin]

Spoiler: show

Dom
LoRab
Quin
JaggedJimmyJay
Glorfindel
Sloonei
indiglo
insertnamehere
MacDougall
motel room
DrWilgy
sprityo
MovingPictures07

linki @ motel room - Oh naturally.

Dom topped Zebra's rainbow list. I say topped specifically because it's not in alphabetical order.

Their interactions beforehand are minimal. One to agree with Dom that she did not suspect Elohcin, one to ask for reads beforehand on Rico and Mac, and a GTH town read. And this:

Spoiler: show

For a while I thought Dom was being narrow and stubborn in this game but he's actually one of the few with his priorities straight.

[Sloonei]

Spoiler: show

I have some recollection of someone expressing concern at my vote at the end od Day 3 so I'm happy to address that matter here. By the time I got on here, EoD was imminent and after skimming the recent posts at that time, the leading wagons were Elohcin and LoRab with a minor wagon on Sprityo. I wanted my vote to count for something and felt compelled to make a judgement between Elohcin and LoRab. Whilst the result turned out well for us, I never really could see the validity of the argument against Elohcin (I thought the assertion that she NK'd Epi on the basis of their personal relationship - two mature, intelligent long term members of this site unable to separate their Mafia gaming activities - to be frankly bordering on the absurd) and I was enamoured by Sloonei's case against LoRab and placed my vote accordingly. Without having checked back, I'm certain that I said as much at the time I voted.

Clearly, I was wrong about Elohcin and in retrospect (after reading LoRab's comprehensive defence) am beginning to feel I may have been wrong about her too. I am still however, firmly convinced that Sloonei is Town and that he may have just mistaken on that occasion - it happens to the best of us.

I'm off to dinner, be back shortly.

He gives Sloonei all the credit for his LoRab vote and reiterates his strong town read despite the result of the lynch -- he actually used the word "mistaken" here to refer to Sloonei's read of LoRab, which I think strongly implies LoRab is town. That's one of the most conclusive things I've found in the game actually.

I'm not sure I'd eliminate LoRab from suspicion for this. In the complete context of Glorfindel's post, he was talking about how he'd (pretended) to have a change of mind about LoRab, so his "mistaken" comment refers to that rather than a slip of the tongue. I'm not sure I think LoRab is scum either way, but this does not fully convince me.

[Sloonei]

Dom's reply is whited out at the very bottom. In case it's hard to read he said:

wow.... tbh... this is pretty well done tbh

I remember this post pinging me very slightly at the time, but it faded from my mind pretty quickly. "Pretty well done" seems to imply something different than "this is a good case." "Well done" suggests it was somewhat laborious for zebra to make that case in a way that required manipulation or dishonestly, like he knew it was not a sincere case but she did a good job of piecing it together anyway.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do you have any other reservations about the conclusions I've drawn, Sloonei?

[Sloonei]

Do you have any other reservations about the conclusions I've drawn, Sloonei?

I'm also not so quick to jump to the conclusion that Epi is bad. I can see it, but I'm not willing to say it's conclusive yet.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

For me it's process of elimination by those team dynamics. I don't think anyone in the Sloonei/Quin/Epi-Zebra group actually looks bad, but someone has to be. I don't think it's LoRab.

[Sloonei]

What I can see very easily is one of Quin or Dom being bad. Paranoia tells me it's Quin, but my head is saying Dom. I am not exactly thrilled by the way Quin instantly started piling on to the suspicion against the Epi/Dom pairing once you drew your conclusions.

[Epignosis]

Epi is bad.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If you can show me a compelling case for a Dom/Sloonei, Dom/Quin, or Sloonei/Quin team: I'm all ears.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The team I crossed out which I think is most likely to be the team is Sloonei/Quin -- just because I can't find any big moment that indicates otherwise.

If they're both bad though then they've killed this game. It'd be some of the best badding I've seen.