GY!BE Mafia [E.N.D.]

[Tangrowth]

@MP, and anyone else who's interest, I laid out some of my own thoughts on BWT here:

This trio of posts from birdwithteeth intrigues me:

Spoiler: show

I lost interest after reading PoE 3 times

JJJ and MP, are you teammates again?

I don't use POE myself that much if at all, but I do find it an interesting strategy and, while not perfect, can be effective in certain situations.

What makes you think they're teammates? Just because they have similar feelings on certain players, albeit with slight disagreements on other opinions? Because I have null reads on both so far.

Linki @MP - idk. I think it's the PoE discussion along with your mannerisms. Declaring PoE as your playstyle gives you a means to stick to something and have at least have that method of play be true. Your mannerisms make it hard to read you in general.

While I can see the argument for the first part, I disagree very much with the bolded. Since I started playing mafia, I think MP's mannerisms have changed considerably. I used to be able to tell much more quickly in games if he was civ or bad. But I think he has evolved and adapted well enough that he's become a much more difficult read, regardless of playstyle and mannerisms.

That being said, there are some thing he is more likely to do if he is civ vs. bad and vice-versa...

That's exactly what a baddie would say.

Eh, I guess it was the mannerisms were just subject of my thoughts at the moment, but you are correct. This defined PoE playstyle is what has my feathers rustled. Your argument that it produces content doesn't settle my stomachache either as I know you have the potential to out tons of posts as a baddie just as you do while civvie.

Sooooo....you feel his defined playstyle and him stating so bothers you, but then say it isn't indicative-alignment right afterwards?

I thought you were trying to make your mind up on something. Are you sure you aren't just trying to stir the pot early on?

All three posts are responses to DrWilgy about MP. In all three he is either vaguely defensive of MP or vaguely critical of Wilgy, or both. BWT has also been very wishy-washy with regards to Edgar Allan Poe all game long with posts like this one where he expresses skepticism of the strategy but does not condemn it or MP at all.
birdwithteeth, how are you reading Wilgy right now? How are you reading MP? What compelled you to respond to these posts in this way?

Others, how do you feel about these posts?

I am not nearly as familiar with him as others (MP and Golden included), so I should defer somewhat to those more informed reads, but I won't dismiss some of the shaky feelings I get reading his posts. For instance, MP says he feels that BWT's discussion of the Process of Elimination stuff felt genuine, but I heartily disagree with that assessment. To me it looked like he was just talking vaguely about it from both sides of an argument, and not really committing to any particular read or stance on anything.

I hate to invoke meta, because I'm increasingly convinced of Mac's adage that 'meta is garbage' and that it proves to be an ineffective and easily manipulated blindspot, but that's just BWT. He gets suspected in every game for talking like that; I've known the guy for over 10 years now, I'd say a lot of that's just his manner of speaking.

[Tangrowth]

I'm not really sure, but it strikes me as potentially fabricated. Here's why: Of literally all of my 130+ posts that Dom could have responded to, he chose to zero in on the use of my word "fellow" in one post. Not my use of POE (which Scotty and Wilgy criticized as a potential tool for me to hide behind if I'm bad, for example, even though you all should know better that my baddie strategy is never to hide a damn thing). Not my treatment of any other players.

I've started from my last post before disappearing. Some things I comment on may be clarified/changed/as I read furthur in, but there are so many posts, if I don't talk while i read I'll lose track of everything.

First point, the bolded above. ^ Has MP never shaken up his game? Has he never played a game different than his norm? Hasn't he admitted that he way more active in this game than normal? So why imply that such a thing can only be true if he is civ, and state that if he were bad, he'd never say such things. Only the worst players are incapable of trying something different, and MP isn't a bad player, and he knows all about WIFOM. I've ALWAYS been pinged when people say "you know I wouldn't play that was as a baddie"....

moving on.

timmer is town.

[Tangrowth]

Holy Batman, timmer's evening entrance (and exit and re-entrance) posts last night were the towniest posts I've seen made since.... well, Quin's replacement entrance posts in Mad Max.

But we all know how that turned out.

Still, I'm tentatively feeling really fucking good about timmer right now.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

I don't quite see your point agaisnt me here? I thought something was odd so I pointed it out, I still find it odd that Dom jumped in over something like that.

These posts were just from me searching my name.=

This makes me feel something ping-y, but I'll put it to the group because maybe this is common and I'm just weird for NOT doing it.... but do you guys come into a thread on Day 1 and search your own name, to answer posts mentioning you? I've never done that, but I could understand someone doing it later in a game maybe, like it's Day 5 and I know I took increasing amounts of heat on Days 3 and 4, and want to quickly see if I'm under fire, again... but Day 1? Does this signal a baddie? Am I over-thinking this?

See... okay, this is the earliest I'll have ever broken down the timing of posts in a game, but this feels like Sig was told he's being eyed. Let me show it:

He had 2 posts Day 0. One nothing intro post early on, and then a post about POE. Nothing of interest.

But then his first post of Day 1 is this:

Y'all just jumped into this game didn't you.

Why am I being GTH bad? I'll catch up this afternoon somewhat, but have a few projects and papers so might not address everything.

Followed instantly by this:

Or, Canuck's quote in my sig below.

I hate when I look up my name and this junk comes up.

So... Theory A: Sig routinely looks himself up in games as early as Day 1, read completely through everyone's posts mentioning his name, saw that people were including him as a possible baddie on GTH reads on Day 1, and felt the need to comment on it.

Except... he didn't make a jokey post first, or a "sorry I've been busy, let me catch up" post or anything. He just quietly got full grasp of his place in the game and then launched right into defending it.

Which leads me to Theory B: Sig has BTSC and was told that he was being eyed, read it all while in baddie chat, formulated a defense and posted it.

I'm leaning towards Theory B. There is something really weird about silently and without posting anything studying your own position in the game and then making your first post of Day 1 a defense post. It's a gut interpreation, but while I continue my reading, it earns sig a vote.

I've never done it, and I agree with your interpretation, but I'm a bit hesitant to conclude this as a slam dunk based on a vague recollection I think sig has done this at least in one other game I've played with him. I can't remember though.

That said, I do agree that it's an inherently suspicious way to go about catching up.

[Tangrowth]

Y'all just jumped into this game didn't you.

Why am I being GTH bad? I'll catch up this afternoon somewhat, but have a few projects and papers so might not address everything.

One more time, emphasizing the key part. Sig's first post of Day 1 was to say that he is busy, will catch up later, but he took the time to search his own name, first? Why would someone do that unless they were told ahead of time that they were being eyed. This is day 1.

That's a compelling point. The juxtaposition in his post is indeed illogical.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Still, I'm tentatively feeling really fucking good about timmer right now.

You're tentatively confident? Is that possible?

[Tangrowth]

My first ping of the day.

Timmer hadn't posted for about 24 hours

Boomslang asks timmer a question.

Timmer posts a mere 10 minutes later.

Unvote whoever I voted (on my phone, can't remember)

Vote Boomslang for now.

These timing suspicions are pretty much always meaningless. No offense, MM, but I've never found any of them to be even remotely telling about anything alignment indicative... ever. If you can show me otherwise, I'm all ears.

[Tangrowth]

Still, I'm tentatively feeling really fucking good about timmer right now.

You're tentatively confident? Is that possible?

Yes, shut up.

[Tangrowth]

I'm just still recovering a bit over how badly Quin blindsided me in Mad Max, that's all. I'd normally feel less paranoid of timmer than I do right now (not at all) but instead it's just slightly. That's where tentative comes from. I'd still say he's my top current town read with confidence though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You recalling that Marmot post inspires a new question.

Marmot: it looks like you were shading timmer for appearing at the convenient moment of being mentioned, but you voted for Boomslang. Why?

[Tangrowth]

I like timmer's contributions.

It's a Sin to Kill a Bird With Teeth on the First Day.

[Tangrowth]

I'm like 5 pages behind. Trying to catch up. Just wanted to let y'all know that I'm still here.

Hi, LoRab!

Curious to hear what thoughts you have when you get caught up.

[Tangrowth]

What would be a better answer?

An answer which details a reasonable perspective you have/had about what I might be doing as a baddie when I poked MP on Day 0 which bears the appearance of being genuine. I don't know what that'd be, but I'd imagine it's plausible for it to exist.

What would be a worse answer?

An answer which details an unreasonable perspective you have/had about what I might be doing as a baddie when I poked MP on Day 0 which does not bear the appearance of being genuine. I thought you might be shading me for opportunism re: MP via implication without directly stating it, which would be a dubious assertion given the fuller context of my dialogue with MP.

To your credit, you didn't go there. You didn't provide a "reasonable perspective" either; you left your answer at its most basic: "I thought your accusation was b/s and it was a ping". It's not a thorough explanation, but it's also not one that looks made up. I can on some level appreciate the take-it-or-leave-it frankness.

This is a good point. I can believe that a baddie Dom would have engaged in the latter.

[Tangrowth]

I don't like this GTH reads from 3J, his baddie reads are low hanging fruits and most are currently low posters.

Aperson/Lorab 2
Sig 4
Boomslang 16
Scotty 24

This is our break down, now I haven't read enough to have a read on Boom or Scotty, but if A-person/Lorab/myself is being pursued to get lynched I would look very closely at whoever is trying to set up our lynches since there is no evidence one way or another and lynching a low poster on day one when we already have 15 pages is a good place to throw a day 1 vote if you're mafia.

I agree that A Person, LoRab, and you have low post counts. I don't care. Generally speaking, more baddies have low post counts than high post counts. I provided reasons for those reads, tell me what you think of those reasons. I'm also interested in the notion of "low-hanging fruit" -- a term you've associated with the set of names I provided. Do you feel Boomslang and Scotty are examples low-hanging fruit, and if so why?

I agree, and this is what so many people especially around here don't seem to understand, because I've gotten into too many back-and-forths on this over the years. I've seen town lose so many games in large part because we've had a real serious problem with only putting pressure on high posters and letting low contributors skate by until endgame.

Don't mind me while I blow off some necessary game-related steam here, because I've been stewing on some of this since earlier portions of this game, and in so many other games, without saying it.

Mafia-aligned players have to literally manufacture every post they make. In general, unless you're a player who can manage to pull that off and still be a high poster and/or thread leader (which I will admit we have a pretty decent chunk of around here because we're full of really awesome players), Jay's bolded/underlined assertion is true.

Conversely, I do think that high quality content can be generated through a small amount of posts, and I think therein lies your incredibly effective mafia player. Consequently, it really bothers me when people lament that low posters get "picked on". That really couldn't be further from the truth around here. High posters generate more content by which to be judged; especially in the early phases of the game, this makes us disproportionate targets for either genuine misunderstandings or manipulative mislynches. The name of the game is that town has to judge which other players are town and mafia based on content; if you are a typical low poster, no one is criticizing your playstyle. We're all just trying to judge your content and so often times prodding is a way to try to get you to provide that so that as a team we can all win this game.

To revisit some of INH's previous comments as well as make some somewhat naturally-related general commentary: Let me make it abundantly clear that I don't feel I am particularly good at this game; it takes posts and posts for me to explore various analyses before I feel I can come to most meaningful conclusions, and I am unnecessarily verbose because that's how I've always been in mafia and otherwise in my life. When I was young, my English teachers always slammed my writing for being unnecessarily verbose.

INH, never would I imply that I'm better at this game than anyone else; if anything, I'm worse than most of you all because it takes too much time and too many posts for me to develop relatively accurate reads most of the time, and I thrive much better when bouncing off of other people. I am not the king of the thread. If you and other low posters don't want to be prodded or suspected, then get here and do what every single other one of us has to do, and that's provide some content by which to be judged.

/rant

[Tangrowth]

I don't care about Scotty's post, and frankly, if I were him I'd be annoyed to be pressed on it so much. I'd just assume people realized it was a dumb mistake.

So, for the record, are you saying that you believe Scotty's supposed contradictory reads were a semantic error and/or that he is good?

I'd also like an answer to this question ASAP.

[Tangrowth]

Loose thought about Epignosis: he was visibly dissatisfied with his performance post-replacement in Mad Max as a baddie, lamenting that he didn't have the time he needed to be the thread presence he wanted to be.

If he drew a baddie role again in this game I'd expect to see a better effort. He takes a lot of pride in his baddie banners, as well he should. This would not represent prideful baddie play.

I can dig this interpretation. I'd like to be able to interact with him though, so hopefully he either drops the shtick at some point or supplements it soon.

[Tangrowth]

This timmer post might be my favorite in the game to this point. I think the points timmer makes about sig are reasonable and compelling, and I think the mindset he conveys in this particular brand of hunting would be difficult to duplicate -- or even think up -- as a baddie.

It warrants a little research to see whether timmer's proposed Theory A (that sig does this often in Mafia games) can be supported. I'll do a little quick digging.

I agree completely.

I also think that timmer is an incredibly astute and effective member of the town, and his behavior that I've seen in this game fits that profile, and something I haven't seen or played with in quite a while. On this site, particularly the past year or two, timmer has often had games where he was too busy to play, and in many of those games he happened to be scum failing to replicate any townie spark, always in perpetual catch-up mode.

For that reason, I also find this post (and particularly the orange highlighted content)

Spoiler: show

Going back to MP, if he didn't have the ol' POE shield to hide behind, I'd consider him my top suspicion. But, I find everything about the POE strategy suspicious and wrong, so my entire barometer's completely out of whack. I'm not exactly sure who elected him king of the thread, I must have missed that Day 0 poll, but he's sure acting like it what with the demands that people meet his standards of play and constant announcements about his own personal POE rankings which are mostly irrelevant to anyone that doesn't actively suspect him due to the fact that NOBODY ELSE IS USING POE IN THIS GAME. That, plus THE LARGE AMOUNT OF SECRETS AND CHICANERY INVOLVED IN THIS GAME MAKE POE STUPID EVEN BY POE STANDARDS. but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Hmm, so I was worried that this might happen. The constant chatter and extreme post count devoted to poe seemed destined to annoy someone, and here we apparently go.

First thing... I don't think anyone has declared MP to be king of the thread. In fact, I've yet to see a single person "follow" him, other than to follow him into discussing other players. Which is how we catch bad guys. Right? So what MP has done, and the others discussing reads in what seems like an early part of the game to do it, is create CONTENT.

I mean, how many Day 1's have we all had the misery of sitting through where everyone is just staring at the wall and then it comes time to vote and everyone goes... "iono... maybs Vomp cuz reasonz?"

This is the most active Day 1 I've ever seen. Why the annoyance, INH?

To end this... all anyone has to do to "counter" MP... is to join him in...wait for it... discussing players. Which is mafia.

I REALLY hope MP doesn't get lynched for daring to bloody well discuss players on a Day 1.

refreshing and even more townie-like for that reason.

[Tangrowth]

I want to hear thoughts from A Person, LoRab, and Triceratops in particular, whenever they can.

I've been away most of today, anything in particular you want me to comment on? I don't have a read on most players partly because I don't know most of their usual posting styles

Again, not to harp on meta, but I've known trice for a while and given most of you have little experience playing or hosting with him, I want to provide at least what I can recall, given that I think I have more experience playing/hosting with him than literally anyone else on this site or elsewhere.

Upon vague recollection in my memory, this bolded/underlined sentiment seems within character.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

OK JJJ:

MP is posting too much & has a very low signal to noise ratio

I think BWT's "definitive reads" thing is just bad word choice and not particularly suspicious (I could be wrong but I don't remember BWT exactly being shakespeare nothing personal)

Dom and Scotty both have this sort of arrogant thing going on in their posts that seems like it might just be their normal personas

verdict is still out on you, INH, boomslang, wilgy, golden, sloonei; I need to do some re-reading (probably tomorrow morning)

I haven't seen enough from timmers, ninja, a person, metalmarsh, sig or lorab to have an idea

and:

Loose thought about Epignosis: he was visibly dissatisfied with his performance post-replacement in Mad Max as a baddie, lamenting that he didn't have the time he needed to be the thread presence he wanted to be.

If he drew a baddie role again in this game I'd expect to see a better effort. He takes a lot of pride in his baddie banners, as well he should. This would not represent prideful baddie play.

This may be so, but it seems way to easy to hide being a baddie behind useless gimmickposting. He's obviously been reading the thread and posting occasionally, has just apparently decided he's not interested in contributing to the game.

I can dig trice's thoughts after being prodded by JJJ. It'd be nice to see more townie spark from him though... especially since the last game I believe trice played here, he was town (in my Death Note game), and he outposted pretty much everyone and got lynched Day 1. It might be interesting to compare some of his d1 content with how he behaved over there, even if it might not be particularly meaningful.

[Tangrowth]

That said, while I recognize I have had plenty of one-liner and banter / jokey posts, I'd say my signal-to-noise ratio is pretty fucking good for d0 and d1.

[Tangrowth]

It warrants a little research to see whether timmer's proposed Theory A (that sig does this often in Mafia games) can be supported. I'll do a little quick digging.

I'm not turning up much of interest in this research. It's a bit difficult to discern whether sig employed this method in other games, because the only way to investigate is to search for key terms. I looked for "mention" and "name" in each of his 2016 games other than ESS Mafia (no clue which sock he was or what that sock is now) and didn't turn up much. It's a limited method, so I don't really derive any inspiring developments from it. The best indicator I could find was a couple of instances of posts like this:

Spoiler: show

I'ma hold Wilgy hostage until Sloon has moved her vote to sig, who we should lynch today.

I don't think she should do that. (Sorry Sloonie I had to. :P)

You haven't mentioned me at all this game yet you want to lynch me why?

[Day 1 of Spirited Away; sig was town]

At least that evidences a consciousness by sig of people mentioning him.

~~~

This matter can be better addressed by sig himself: sig, please describe your approach to this game upon your arrival in Day 1 and why you approached it that way.

I swear I can recall sig saying something like catching up by searching for instances he was mentioned, but maybe I'm going crazy.

I still think it's suspicious though, and he needs to answer for it.

[Tangrowth]

Thanks, TZ (I'm going to start calling you that for short if you don't object).

Does MP's signal-to-noise ratio make you suspicious of him? How about Dom and Scotty's perceived arrogance?

"trice" is a common shortened version but I'm ok with TZ if 5 letters is too many for you

I haven't decided on MP yet. I believe a couple other people have said he's behaving differently from normal, which MP has hand-waved away as "oh but I'm doing POE this game that's why"

How true is this? How many players in this game would say I'm behaving differently than my own standard?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I swear I can recall sig saying something like catching up by searching for instances he was mentioned, but maybe I'm going crazy.

He may have. Like I said, it's difficult research to undertake -- I only bothered with 2016 games and two keywords. There are probably other ways to say "I'm looking for mentions of myself".

[Tangrowth]

I swear I can recall sig saying something like catching up by searching for instances he was mentioned, but maybe I'm going crazy.

He may have. Like I said, it's difficult research to undertake -- I only bothered with 2016 games and two keywords. There are probably other ways to say "I'm looking for mentions of myself".

Yeah, I understand. I just want to emphasize that I really appreciate you doing the research, by the way; I know that takes some serious effort. My remark wasn't intended as a criticism, merely just an expression of something being on the tip of my mind/tongue but not being able to fully recall it.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

OK, so I may not get back before deadline, so I may as well put my thoughts on scotty out there.

I do not believe scotty didn't look at his PM. It's possible he just said he didn't for playful fun, but his tone is not one of playful fun. But Scotty takes his team duty seriously and wouldn't not check in my opinion.

Add to that, I have a tonal issue with scotty. Trice just described him as 'arrogant', but no, this is not normal scotty. The scotty I'm used to is a town force who maintains a certain level of 'tipping his hat' to everyone else. Arrogance is not something I associate with him in the slightest.

What's more, from my perspective, Scotty has a habit of getting himself into early trouble when bad. I don't agree with whoever said he is a 'bullseye', because I don't think scotty gets lynched early very often. But I can recall twice he got himself into early trouble - red vs blue and Lost Again season 1. In each of these games my perception is that he was playing a pretty decent game (and trying to replicate town scotty) but got himself caught up in contradictions.

The Scotty I see at the start of this game is not a scotty I've seen before. But Scotty has no need to mix up a town game that serves him well. On the other hand, he seems to get caught early as a baddie. My impression is that this 'distant' scotty (my read of what Trice is seeing as slightly arrogant, I think) is his attempt to mix up his baddie game and not get caught.

Add to that, he's getting caught in contradictions again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having said all of that about scotty, my vote for inh was more than a 'no u'. I do apologise for my mini meltdown, but to me there is only so many times that you can criticise everyone else for 'not creating meaningful content' while doing nothing yourself.

Jay pointed out that inh 'described mafia' when criticising what others were doing. I agree.

He does things like call out the sig votes as having 'no thread basis' despite criticising the things people are trying to do to establish a thread basis for their votes.

I see it being very plausible that inh is bad and someone... probably not sig... is taking heat for what inh considers to be bullsuit reasons.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm genuinely torn between which to vote for. Scotty is generally the one of these two I find easiest to read long term, and I do feel as though he has lacked opportunity to contribute so far. On the other hand, he seems like the much more likely place to get some sort of vague consensus, which means my vote has a higher chance of relevance.

On the other hand, I find inh potentially much more insidious as I do not really know if he ever creates content, and so I don't know what I would hang him on later if he is bad. I also feel as though inh flipping bad would tell us more than scotty would, because I get the sense inh is old school and that defending teammates by implication on day one is definitely something he would do. But he is much less likely to be lynched.

So, with that dilemma in mind....

I'm going to leave my vote on inh, because I have more conviction about him, and if I happen to get some time in the morning I'll revisit it then.

Golden, I swear to the mafia gods, if you are scum this game, I'm going to lose it. I think I'm finally at the point where I'd call you at least a moderate town read, if not a strong one. There's a lot of stuff in here that not only I agree with, but I think displays genuine townie-inclined insight.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I swear I can recall sig saying something like catching up by searching for instances he was mentioned, but maybe I'm going crazy.

He may have. Like I said, it's difficult research to undertake -- I only bothered with 2016 games and two keywords. There are probably other ways to say "I'm looking for mentions of myself".

Yeah, I understand. I just want to emphasize that I really appreciate you doing the research, by the way; I know that takes some serious effort. My remark wasn't intended as a criticism, merely just an expression of something being on the tip of my mind/tongue but not being able to fully recall it.

I dig, no worries.

And it really doesn't. I have a system, a spreadsheet, and no life.

[Tangrowth]

I swear I can recall sig saying something like catching up by searching for instances he was mentioned, but maybe I'm going crazy.

He may have. Like I said, it's difficult research to undertake -- I only bothered with 2016 games and two keywords. There are probably other ways to say "I'm looking for mentions of myself".

Yeah, I understand. I just want to emphasize that I really appreciate you doing the research, by the way; I know that takes some serious effort. My remark wasn't intended as a criticism, merely just an expression of something being on the tip of my mind/tongue but not being able to fully recall it.

I dig, no worries.

And it really doesn't. I have a system, a spreadsheet, and no life.

My ears perk at the mention of 'I have a system' and just the word 'spreadsheet'; I must be made aware of this. Is this the spreadsheet you already informed me about?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My ears perk at the mention of 'I have a system' and just the word 'spreadsheet'; I must be made aware of this. Is this the spreadsheet you already informed me about?

It is.

You're all in my file.

[Tangrowth]

My ears perk at the mention of 'I have a system' and just the word 'spreadsheet'; I must be made aware of this. Is this the spreadsheet you already informed me about?

It is.

You're all in my file.

I'M IN YOUR AREA

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My favorite Death Grips song.

I'd appreciate your own current thoughts on INH, MP, as your time permits. After reading Golden's comments and then doing my own legwork, I found myself uniquely inspired.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

I might call INH the most difficult player for me to read on this roster, because I feel it is impossible to make that read without 1) being pushed by emotion in response to feeling like my play is being belittled and 2) over-reliance upon meta.

When I look at INH's posts in this game and judge them at face value, I see things that are suspicious. I see:

1) Mass, sweeping discredits of everyone who is making an effort
2) Implied but not conclusively stated defenses of perceived "bullzeye" targets
3) A lack of original hunting-relevant content despite a post history of moderate quantity and a few thick posts

These things are red flags in the most general sense. If I see them in a Mafia game thread, I tend to suspect those doing it. And yet, I feel like I've been here before with INH. The 1st and 3rd
items above are hallmarks of his play, and they've caused him to fall under fire repeatedly in recent games from me, from Sloonei, from Golden, and probably others. The 2nd item isn't one I'd call a "hallmark", though it may be a natural product of the 1st.

He was a baddie in Psych Mafia. There's the baseline to draw any comparisons and to qualify any reads. There's one post in particular:

So, it looks like the Day 1 crazies have set in, and I think that everyone's more than a little bit coo-coo right now. There seem to be weird suspicions directed from sig at Elo, Lorab, and SVS/Soneji that are based on what looks like literally nothing except minute Day 1 interactions and "Why are you defending him? Your defense is weird! You two must be teammates!" All of it seems incoherent, and none of it jives with me logically or emotionally.

Also, Wilgy has a Wilgy thingy-majigger against Dom, because presumably he just saw an episode of Sesame Street featuring the letter "D" and therefore the universe is telling him in a holistic manner that Dom must be scum.

The only vague Day 0/1 kerfuffle-ry that makes my eyebrow twitch is Scotty's "Tee-hee, I haven't even looked at my role card." combined with his fly-by vote for Sokoth and his weak suspicion reasoning against Sig. Not that I'm necessarily saying that I support sig, I just think that there are much more legitimate reasons to suspect him instead of "He usually doesn't post this much."

That post is from Psych Mafia, not this game.

I yellow-highlighted moments of familiarity. INH defended three people by implication by discrediting reads given by sig. A parallel can be drawn there to his discredits and implied defenses in this game. There's also the "none of it jives with me" thing wherein INH shoos away the notion that trying to make any real read on Day 1 isn't inherently a waste of time.

Also, I just saw that orange bit by chance and it bears an obvious connection to this game too. I'll look into that separately.

Compiling this post proved rather moving, actually. The parallels are tight, and regardless of meta face value problems should be acknowledged. I could get behind an INH lynch.

This is insightful. I will admit that perhaps my earlier issue with sig's posts against high content bothered me because of a particular line/ping, whereas INH's continued crusade I've had to really fight my inclination to just throw out as meaningless "INH being INH".

I'm beginning to slowly warm up to an INH lynch.

[Ricochet]

Today I Learned: MP Listens to Death Grips

[Tangrowth]

Dammit Jay, is it actually the case? Are you, Golden, and I actually all town? I've been trying so hard not to get my hopes up, because if there are any two players that could fool me due to natural mindmeld and an impressive ability to fake genuine volume and insightful townie content, it's you two, but I am finally warming up to solid town reads of you both.

My brain right now: 30% HOLY FUCK THIS IS SO AWESOME, WE'RE ALL TOWN; 20% "you realize you haven't even had a single flip yet?"; 50% red alarm paranoia.

[Tangrowth]

Today I Learned: MP Listens to Death Grips

Indeed! I actually saw them live with BWT. Awesome show, even if the shortest non-festival main act I've ever seen (I believe it was about 40 minutes).

My favorite Death Grips song.

I'd appreciate your own current thoughts on INH, MP, as your time permits. After reading Golden's comments and then doing my own legwork, I found myself uniquely inspired.

Mine too!

Let me mull over INH and compose my thoughts so that I can express as much as possible what's going on in my brain about him all game. Give me a few minutes here.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dammit Jay, is it actually the case? Are you, Golden, and I actually all town? I've been trying so hard not to get my hopes up, because if there are any two players that could fool me due to natural mindmeld and an impressive ability to fake genuine volume and insightful townie content, it's you two, but I am finally warming up to solid town reads of you both.

My brain right now: 30% HOLY FUCK THIS IS SO AWESOME, WE'RE ALL TOWN; 20% "you realize you haven't even had a single flip yet?"; 50% red alarm paranoia.

Rest assured the feeling is mutual.

Another more general mindset development which is probably influencing my read on INH is an increasing degree of aversion to trusting a town meta. I had a recent experience on Vendetta Strada as a visitor in my first game in which my reads were cot damned beautiful and perfect, and nobody listened to me "because they knew their people better than I did". It mirrored incidents in Talking Heads, and it's corroborated by stranger-loaded games like MU tourney games.

[Tangrowth]

Dammit Jay, is it actually the case? Are you, Golden, and I actually all town? I've been trying so hard not to get my hopes up, because if there are any two players that could fool me due to natural mindmeld and an impressive ability to fake genuine volume and insightful townie content, it's you two, but I am finally warming up to solid town reads of you both.

My brain right now: 30% HOLY FUCK THIS IS SO AWESOME, WE'RE ALL TOWN; 20% "you realize you haven't even had a single flip yet?"; 50% red alarm paranoia.

Rest assured the feeling is mutual.

Another more general mindset development which is probably influencing my read on INH is an increasing degree of aversion to trusting a town meta. I had a recent experience on Vendetta Strada as a visitor in my first game in which my reads were cot damned beautiful and perfect, and nobody listened to me "because they knew their people better than I did". It mirrored incidents in Talking Heads, and it's corroborated by stranger-loaded games like MU tourney games.

It's funny you mention Talking Heads because that's the first game that showed me just how flawed meta perceptions can be and how easily they can be manipulated. They almost cost town the game. Since that game actually, I've had an increasing degree of aversion myself.

I ideally would prefer to analyze INH's posts ISO to help illustrate my thought process and perhaps give me some clarity because I feel conflicted about him... but mulling over it, I think I'd rather give you a "quick" rundown though, just to give you an answer of everything currently percolating in my mind at this time, even if it's uninformed or hard to read:

I've known INH since before this site and he's one of my favorite people to have around; however, I always have gotten the impression that INH has a very much love/hate relationship with mafia and I've seen many mafia games become emotionally tense experiences for him, so I feel like my meta experience with him is tough to swat away. I can even relate to this to a degree, because I've had many games in the past where I felt my own approach to the game was poor, despite my best efforts, and no one could ever do anything but suspect me for it. I get very emotionally attached to the game as well, and he and I historically have been heavy mislynch targets (albeit for different reasons), so to some degree I feel his pain. Despite playing for nearly 7 years now, only over the past 2 years have I gradually become much more comfortable in my own mafia skin and found methods that assisted me in developing a playstyle that I feel is more enjoyable and effective, not characterized by analysis paralysis and less emotionally stressful.

So when he expresses sentiments as he has throughout this game, I feel as though it's hard for me to wade through the emotion and assess them fairly for anything remotely alignment-indicative, because for as long as I've known him, a lot of this stuff has been INH, depending on the game. Sometimes it takes a lot longer into the game for it to trigger than it did here, but it's a relatively consistent pattern at least from what I can recall.

I initially thought INH seemed town because he seemed willing to move beyond our different approaches to the game and offer some fair criticism to the prospective manner in which I set out to approach this game.

Since then, however, INH has seemed intent to do the exact opposite, waging war against the very notion of meaningful d0/d1 content and engaging only to question the legitimacy of methods employed by other players instead of offering up anything much more than a proverbial shrug himself. It's been my natural inclination to shrug off the inherent scummy nature of these actions due to a meta-painted picture in my head of these stances being alignment-neutral for INH.

Nonetheless, as I've been catching up again this morning, after reading yours, timmer's, and Golden's posts on the matter, as well as more fairly trying to assess INH the player in this game versus INH the general person, I'm slowly coming to the GTH interpretation of his behavior of exactly what I was thinking INH wasn't doing in my very initial town read of him -- using an established meta and emotional appeal that isn't so much lying because all of it is inherently how INH genuinely feels about POE and the game -- to try to persuade anyone from mafia reading him.

Without performing any detailed ISO analysis, I'd call him as suspicious as Scotty at this point, and I endorse his lynch.

[Tangrowth]

To elaborate on my current read of INH: I think he's trying his best to use his genuine thoughts on POE and talkative d0/d1 games to both evade thorough assessment all the while appearing alignment-neutral or even town-like (using my initial town read of him as comfort) as well as painting broad strokes at discrediting as much of the current discussion as possible out of mafia-aligned panic.

I think if he is a townie he would have at least displayed some semblance of caring about solving the game, even in spite of his thoughts on POE, talkative games, and his own assessment of his own playstyle. He hasn't done so. He should answer to that.

I also believe that INH being scum and trying to tap into genuine thoughts re: POE also explains why he went on a rampage on it despite the fact that I am the only player roughly utilizing the approach; Golden and JJJ aren't, for example. Thinking back on it, I suspect that there really wasn't much reason for him to continue his rampage against POE in particular (an active d0/d1 is a different story) based on in-thread content, and that instead he intends to use it as a smokescreen.

[Tangrowth]

insertnamehere

[Tangrowth]

insertnamehere

I still want to lynch Scotty too, but I think I just convinced myself I'm slightly more interested in an INH lynch at this time.

Still plenty of time to change my mind though, Scotty and INH. Let's hear it. Why should we trust you?

[Tangrowth]

I'm going to abandon POE. No one else is using it, and I've developed nuanced mafia reads already (which I honestly wasn't expecting); holding onto POE will hold me back from expressing those nuances and exploring various tiered mafia reads.

[Tangrowth]

MP's Middle of Day 1 Rainbow - GY!BE Rainbow #5

Strong Town:
timmer

Moderate Town:
Golden
JaggedJimmyJay

Weak Town:
Sloonei
birdwithteeth11
triceratopzeuhl
Boomslang

Very Weak Town:
DrWilgy
Dom
Metalmarsh89
nijuukyugou
Epignosis

Very Weak Mafia:
LoRab
Vompatti
A Person

Weak Mafia:
sig

Moderate Mafia:
Scotty

Strong Mafia:
insertnamehere

I specifically told myself to throw out the vary notion of a 'null' read, so I tried to sort those out into very weak town and very weak mafia based on a quick GTH exercise.

Also, players are ordered within tiers as well as across tiers. So, for example, I feel oh so incredibly slightly better about Golden than JJJ, but not enough to justify different category placement.

It's almost 10am here, crap. I should really get going for a while now... I would have preferred to provide detailed reasons for all of these, but I think many of them can be sourced from discussions and sentiments in my post history, since I've tried to display every thought I've had on everyone as much as possible. I can elaborate upon any of these upon request; please ask me if you have questions and poke me on any disagreements.

Be back closer to EoD, probably in the early afternoon at the earliest.

[Vompatti]

Very weak? This isn't even my final form!

[Dom]

My first ping of the day.

Timmer hadn't posted for about 24 hours

Boomslang asks timmer a question.

Timmer posts a mere 10 minutes later.

Unvote whoever I voted (on my phone, can't remember)

Vote Boomslang for now.

And here starts a suspiciion f MM
Why would you vote for boom in this scneario?
Wouldn't you vote for timmer?
Timmer's teammates would ahve had to alert him to the post. It doesn't guarantee boom is one of them. this logic is backwards.

I like timmer's contributions.

same

What would be a better answer?

An answer which details a reasonable perspective you have/had about what I might be doing as a baddie when I poked MP on Day 0 which bears the appearance of being genuine. I don't know what that'd be, but I'd imagine it's plausible for it to exist.

What would be a worse answer?

An answer which details an unreasonable perspective you have/had about what I might be doing as a baddie when I poked MP on Day 0 which does not bear the appearance of being genuine. I thought you might be shading me for opportunism re: MP via implication without directly stating it, which would be a dubious assertion given the fuller context of my dialogue with MP.

To your credit, you didn't go there. You didn't provide a "reasonable perspective" either; you left your answer at its most basic: "I thought your accusation was b/s and it was a ping". It's not a thorough explanation, but it's also not one that looks made up. I can on some level appreciate the take-it-or-leave-it frankness.

This is a good point. I can believe that a baddie Dom would have engaged in the latter.

There are three options here.
Wich one?

[Golden]

My first ping of the day.

Timmer hadn't posted for about 24 hours

Boomslang asks timmer a question.

Timmer posts a mere 10 minutes later.

Unvote whoever I voted (on my phone, can't remember)

Vote Boomslang for now.

These timing suspicions are pretty much always meaningless. No offense, MM, but I've never found any of them to be even remotely telling about anything alignment indicative... ever. If you can show me otherwise, I'm all ears.

I seem to remember being suspected by someone for what I did in 17 minutes once. That might have been LC in Bullets Over Broadway?

I was good (well, technically I was neutral if it is that game, but I remember being in the mindset of helping town). LC was bad.

[Marmot]

My first ping of the day.

Timmer hadn't posted for about 24 hours

Boomslang asks timmer a question.

Timmer posts a mere 10 minutes later.

Unvote whoever I voted (on my phone, can't remember)

Vote Boomslang for now.

These timing suspicions are pretty much always meaningless. No offense, MM, but I've never found any of them to be even remotely telling about anything alignment indicative... ever. If you can show me otherwise, I'm all ears.

That's what everyone told me in Talking Heads wert Russ.

I was right then fwiw.

[Golden]

A note on meta.

It's an overused tool that people often rely upon too heavily to their detriment.

But it should not be entirely dismissed. It has its times and places. In the end, correct gut reads often just come from 'this feels like what I'm used to from this player when bad'.

Also, I won't be around long, but having read Jay and MP continue analysing inh, I feel even better about my vote there, so there it will stay.

[Marmot]

You recalling that Marmot post inspires a new question.

Marmot: it looks like you were shading timmer for appearing at the convenient moment of being mentioned, but you voted for Boomslang. Why?

I didn't think about it that way, also I'm posting from phone then and now.

But you offer good reason.

Unvote Boomslang

Vote timmer

[Golden]

All hail the chaos marmot

[timmer]

So Sig, I see your name on the bottom of my screen, can you elaborate please on the points I made about you? Also, @MM fuck you buddeh!

[sig]

I don't quite see your point agaisnt me here? I thought something was odd so I pointed it out, I still find it odd that Dom jumped in over something like that.

These posts were just from me searching my name.=

This makes me feel something ping-y, but I'll put it to the group because maybe this is common and I'm just weird for NOT doing it.... but do you guys come into a thread on Day 1 and search your own name, to answer posts mentioning you? I've never done that, but I could understand someone doing it later in a game maybe, like it's Day 5 and I know I took increasing amounts of heat on Days 3 and 4, and want to quickly see if I'm under fire, again... but Day 1? Does this signal a baddie? Am I over-thinking this?

See... okay, this is the earliest I'll have ever broken down the timing of posts in a game, but this feels like Sig was told he's being eyed. Let me show it:

He had 2 posts Day 0. One nothing intro post early on, and then a post about POE. Nothing of interest.

But then his first post of Day 1 is this:

Y'all just jumped into this game didn't you.

Why am I being GTH bad? I'll catch up this afternoon somewhat, but have a few projects and papers so might not address everything.

Followed instantly by this:

Or, Canuck's quote in my sig below.

I hate when I look up my name and this junk comes up.

So... Theory A: Sig routinely looks himself up in games as early as Day 1, read completely through everyone's posts mentioning his name, saw that people were including him as a possible baddie on GTH reads on Day 1, and felt the need to comment on it.

Except... he didn't make a jokey post first, or a "sorry I've been busy, let me catch up" post or anything. He just quietly got full grasp of his place in the game and then launched right into defending it.

Which leads me to Theory B: Sig has BTSC and was told that he was being eyed, read it all while in baddie chat, formulated a defense and posted it.

I'm leaning towards Theory B. There is something really weird about silently and without posting anything studying your own position in the game and then making your first post of Day 1 a defense post. It's a gut interpreation, but while I continue my reading, it earns sig a vote.

I didn't have much time, so of course I would search my name first and answer points/posts about me. I usually do this when there is a good amount of posts that I can't get through at one point. Also I don't see why I wouldn't start on the defensive if people where reading me as bad, that seems like a logic first step. I'd also assume, since I said it in the sign up, that it was remember that I was busy. I prefer not to mention it to much in game since it can be seen as an excuse to not post.

sig, all due respect, don't take my response as rude. It isn't intended that way. I just cannot possibly disagree with you more on that matter; it is unfathomable to me that anyone could think that the current activity for this game is bad for the town.

Furthermore, I didn't ask Boomslang for accurate or true reads. I find it suspicious that you are misconstruing my post as that, especially in conjunction with the fact that you say you don't like it but you don't mafia read it. I was trying to get a feel for him. I still am. I am with everyone. Reads cannot be even remotely accurate if no one pokes anyone else. I am trying to get reads on everyone I can; that's how you play the game of mafia. I think that's been a running theme in my posts, so for you to interpret my post the way that you did (saying that no one can have accurate reads) is outwardly misrepresentation or misunderstanding, and I'm inclined to believe the former at the moment.

But see here is the issue when does generating content turn into overposting which makes people less interested and more confused? I'm not sure if you're doing this now but it is a strategy you've employed in the past, it's day 1 and you already have 200 posts. I know town MP does this as well, but it is perhaps one of your best skills as a mafia member as well.

I don't like Scotty's vote on bwt or Sloonie's. He is a low fruit early on time and time again.

This response is fair, thank you. I'm not sure when a thread turns into that point; I think it's inevitably subjective and dependent on the actual content more so than the volume of it, but it's probably a bit of both. I personally feel like this has been a way more productive Day 0/Day 1 than usual, so I'm excited about it. You may perceive it differently.

I'm feeling tentatively better about you at the moment, but I'm still bothered by the way you twisted around the purpose of my asking Boomslang for his reads. Perhaps you just misunderstood what I was doing; if that's the case, I apologize for not being clearer. Otherwise, it reeks of yucky mud.

I just found it odd you expected him to have solid reads or really reads of any kind so early in the game. My second point about in that post was a more general one.

What do you think of inh jumping on your understanding as gospel, though?

I can understand why you would be worried about me suspecting you, and read it that way, but surely for anyone else they would at least see that there was another way to take my post.

I just can't tell if inh was being genuine in his choice to treat your words as the true interpretation of my post, or if he just wanted to take another dig at me. Despite the fact I've made it clear I'm not using PoE this game and think it has fundamental flaws in a secret-laden setup.

I'll need to review what he said today, but from what I remember he already has that view and when he saw I agreed with him he jumped on it right? That is assuming we're talking about our POE exchanges? However, I don't remember your exchanges with INH to well so I'll review them this afternoon.

Sloonie I see what he is doing as early day 1 reads. So he might not be taking a strong stance, but I don't think that is alignment indicating. I also don't want to lynch bwt today since he always seems to get lynched early and rarely (if ever) is mafia when lynched day 1/2

Hey Boomslang, have my vote. Convince me you're town. What are your current reads and why? They don't have to be anything substantial by any means.

I don't like this post, not saying it is a mafia post or pingy I just don't like it. We have just started day 1 how many accurate and true reads can you have at this point? In fact i'd be more suspicious of people who have any strong reads since it would imply buddying/mafia town reading people they think are town.

I feel like we are moving way to quickly for a day 1 and that it could cause harm to town in mid game.

at this point, I'm waiting for the actual game to start, because reading into this pre-game nonsense is giving me nothing.

I actually agree with this, I've read day 0 and have gotten very little from it so far.

I dislike how both sig and INH seem to hate that people are working on content on Day 1 (how dare they?) while offering up little in the way of alternatives.

There is content and false content, it's very dangerous when we are flooded with false content, so I'm always wary of people who tons. ALso I stand by what I said, how many accurate and true reads can you have day 1 to make a good list?

I've got a group documentary due on Monday so off I must be to finish it.